How many non- catholics have you converted to your religion with your work on here?
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BreadOfLife
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And, apparently – nothing will make YOU understand the Scriptures in their proper context.
As for me – I will remain steadfast to Christ and His Church,
God does the converting. I’m just here to defend His Word and His Church.
I’m here to expose lies from anti-Catholics and to set the record straight . . .
You have given zero Scriptural evidence the apocrypha is Inspired. Your church even denies some of its books are inspired.
It's hard for me to believe you really believe what you are debating.
Its possible you are only working to gain members for your theocracy.
BreadOfLife
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And as I stated before – the 1st century canon was not only fluid – there was no single approved canon.
- Samaritans and Sadducees accepted the Law (Torah) – but NOT the Prophets (Nevi'im) and Writings (Ketuvim):
- The Pharisees accepted all three.
- Other Jews used the Greek Septuagint that included the 7 Deuterocanonical Books.
- Still, other Jews accepted the Hebrew version of the Septuagint.
- Ethiopian Jews use the SAME canon as the Catholic Church to this day.
- Early Christians also used the SAME Canon.
And, as I already showed – Jesus and the Apostles studied from and referenced the Deuterocanonicals in the NT, as we see in 2 more examples:
1 Tim. 6:15 and Rev. 17:14, Rev. 19:16 – description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 21:19 – the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.
BreadOfLife
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This is a stupid argument.
You can’t provide Scriptural evidence for MOST Books of the Bible.
Tell me – how would YOU go about doing that?
Really??
Name ONE . . .
My theocracy?
Do you even know what a theocracy is??
No – I do not have my own country and I am NOT the head of any government . . .
............
one thing
I believe is important to realize is how the Catholic Faith System completely rejects all Old Testament religious customs and traditions -
it is only the Apocrypha that Catholicism incorporates and directly applies as direct exact application.
meaning - the very exact prescribed religious rite, ritual, ceremony, observance and custom found in the Apocrypha are directly transferred and copied over from the Apocrypha and applied specifically for the Catholic Church
the prayers for the dead
and even praying to the dead
and purgatory
these Apocrypha practices are not a part of Old Testament religious practice but are from the Apocrypha alone.....
just exactly as praying for the dead, praying to the dead and purgatory are directly applied in the Apocrypha itself -
just exactly as these religious applications are originally practiced in the Apocrypha itself, these same exact religious Apocrypha teachings and applications are copied and transferred directly into the Catholic Church.
this is a duplicated direct application - a mimicking of the original purpose - and applied specifically for the original purpose of praying for the dead,
applied specifically for the original purpose of praying to the dead
and applied specifically for the original purpose of purgatory
this is not the same for the Old Testament where the same practices are partly and similarly copied over into Catholicism - such as burning incense, pots and cups and vessels of gold and silver are used and even the eating of unleavened bread and also the wearing of robes and headwear and a wide variety and array of decorative plates, liturgical speech, linens, candles, censers and boxes and linens
all of these other Old Testament religious rites, rituals, ceremonies, observance and custom such as unleavened bread are not applied in the same way and for the same exact purpose in their direct application and are not mimicked nor applied specifically for the original purpose as prescribed in the Old Testament
only the religious traditions and ceremony found in the Apocrypha are what the Catholic Church copies and transfers directly into the Catholic System to be applied as ": direct transference : = " in the same exact and precise way and for the same exact method
and purposed for the " : ORIGINAL DIRECT APPLICATION :" - specifically for the original purpose as prescribed in the same exact way, as performed in the Apocrypha.
Nothing from the Old Testament is incorporated into the Catholic Faith System and applied as direct application applied specifically for the original purpose as prescribed in the Old Testament
only teachings and customs and ritual and rites and ceremony found in the Apocrypha are what the Catholic Church copies and transfers directly into the Catholic System to be applied as ": practiced :" in the same exact and precise way and for the same exact method and purpose as in their " : ORIGINAL DIRECT APPLICATION :" and - specifically for the original purpose as in the Apocrypha.
one thing
I believe is important to realize is how the Catholic Faith System completely rejects all Old Testament religious customs and traditions -
it is only the Apocrypha that Catholicism incorporates and directly applies as direct exact application.
meaning - the very exact prescribed religious rite, ritual, ceremony, observance and custom found in the Apocrypha are directly transferred and copied over from the Apocrypha and applied specifically for the Catholic Church
the prayers for the dead
and even praying to the dead
and purgatory
these Apocrypha practices are not a part of Old Testament religious practice but are from the Apocrypha alone.....
just exactly as praying for the dead, praying to the dead and purgatory are directly applied in the Apocrypha itself -
just exactly as these religious applications are originally practiced in the Apocrypha itself, these same exact religious Apocrypha teachings and applications are copied and transferred directly into the Catholic Church.
this is a duplicated direct application - a mimicking of the original purpose - and applied specifically for the original purpose of praying for the dead,
applied specifically for the original purpose of praying to the dead
and applied specifically for the original purpose of purgatory
this is not the same for the Old Testament where the same practices are partly and similarly copied over into Catholicism - such as burning incense, pots and cups and vessels of gold and silver are used and even the eating of unleavened bread and also the wearing of robes and headwear and a wide variety and array of decorative plates, liturgical speech, linens, candles, censers and boxes and linens
all of these other Old Testament religious rites, rituals, ceremonies, observance and custom such as unleavened bread are not applied in the same way and for the same exact purpose in their direct application and are not mimicked nor applied specifically for the original purpose as prescribed in the Old Testament
only the religious traditions and ceremony found in the Apocrypha are what the Catholic Church copies and transfers directly into the Catholic System to be applied as ": direct transference : = " in the same exact and precise way and for the same exact method
and purposed for the " : ORIGINAL DIRECT APPLICATION :" - specifically for the original purpose as prescribed in the same exact way, as performed in the Apocrypha.
Nothing from the Old Testament is incorporated into the Catholic Faith System and applied as direct application applied specifically for the original purpose as prescribed in the Old Testament
only teachings and customs and ritual and rites and ceremony found in the Apocrypha are what the Catholic Church copies and transfers directly into the Catholic System to be applied as ": practiced :" in the same exact and precise way and for the same exact method and purpose as in their " : ORIGINAL DIRECT APPLICATION :" and - specifically for the original purpose as in the Apocrypha.
The apocrypha is not inspired, while many continue to point to the inclusion of the Apocryphal Old Testament books in Bibles. All pure Bibles viewed these books as non-canonical and said so in their preface.
The Wycliffe Bible warned in its Prologue that only those books written in Hebrew were canonical. Others, it said,
“...shall be set among Apocrypha, that is, without authority of belief...[that] be not of the authority of bible ancient Hebrew...
[R]eceiveth not them among holy Scripture...that be not ancient Hebrew and be not of the number of holy writ;
[T]hey aught to be cast far away...for me doubteth the truth thereof” (Prologue, pp. 1, 2).
Wycliffe said that when the “Word of God is not heard, spiritual death broods over all” (Schaff-Herzog, s.v. Wyclif, pp. 464, 466).
“[H]e designated the Bible as the one authority for believers, and so teaching, traditions, bulls, symbols, and censures go by the board as far as they do not rest on Scripture.”
Tyndale and Coverdale did not approve of the Apocrypha. King James, himself did not approve of it.
Tyndale would not translate the Apocrypha. Coverdale removed the Apocrypha from the Old Testament scriptures. He prefaced his intertestamental section saying, these books “are not reckoned to be of like authority with the other books of the Bible neither are they found in the Canon of the Hebrew...[and] are not judged among the doctors to be of like reputation with the other scripture...And the chief cause thereof is this: there be many places in them, that seem to be repugnant unto the open and manifest truth in the other books of the Bible” (Dore, 2nd ed., p. 110).
Rogers’ Thomas Matthew’s Bible said, “the books called Apocrypha...are not found in the Hebrew nor in the Chaldee” (Dore, 2nd ed., p. 116).
Samuel Ward was among a few who were assigned the task of translating the Apocrypha. King James I said:
“As to the Apocryphal books, I omit them because I am no papist.” (Basilikon Doron ).
Most Christians shared the King’s desire for a Bible without the bulky Apocrypha. As early as 1612 printers (London: Barker), anxious to supply the large demand, printed Bibles without the appendage of the unnecessary Apocrypha. They were following the pattern of the quarto edition of the Great Bible (ed. 1549), some copies of the 1599 Geneva, a quarto edition of the Bishops’ Bible, dated 1577, and many personal hand-sized earlier Bibles. Antiquarian booksellers today offer for sale numerous early copies of the KJV without the Apocrypha (e.g. 1612, 1629 (Norton and Bill “Printers to the King’s Most Excellent Majesty”), 1637, 1653, 1662, 1682; Peter Cresswell, Antiquarian Bibles, South Humberside, England: Humber Books, Catalogue 23 et al,; TBS, No. 31).
The Apocrypha is a series of books, written between B.C. 250 and B.C. 100, which exemplify the “superstitious” “traditions,” “imaginations,” and “commandments of men” which Jesus and Paul warned against (Acts 17:22, Matt. 15:9, Rom. 1:21, Gal. 1:14). The Apocrypha characterizes the “cultural, ethical, and religious background” which surrounded the time of Christ. Even Princeton’s Bruce Metzger writes:
“This body of literature also supplies important information regarding the life and thoughts of the Jewish people during a significant period of their history, namely the period just prior to the emergence of Christianity. By becoming acquainted with these books, therefore, one will be better able to understand the political, ethical, and religious background of the contemporaries of Jesus Christ” (Bruce Metzger, An Introduction to the Apocrypha, NY: Oxford University Press, 1957, p. viii).
For the same reason, current Study Bibles, like the Scofield Reference Bible (“From Malachi to Matthew”) and Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible (“Between the Testaments”) include a section between the Old Testament and the New Testament, explaining the events, history and beliefs of the intertestamental period. The KJV translators, like early Bibles, simply included the real thing. No one today thinks that Scofield’s notes are a part of the Bible, just as no true Christian in 1611 thought that the Apocrypha was a part of the Bible. Bible Prologues stated ‘up front’ that the Apocrypha was not scripture. The Great Bible’s Prologue stated that the Apocrypha was not “found in the Hebrew” Bible. Wycliffe’s Prologue said that the Apocrypha “is, without authority.” Luther’s Bible (1534 ed.) stated that the Apocrypha is “not to be considered as equal to Holy Scriptures.” The early Westminster Confession of Faith stated that the Apocrypha is “no part of the Canon of Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the church of God; nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.” The KJV translators said that the Apocrypha was not scripture because it was not written in Hebrew, nor ever accepted by the Jews or early Christians, nor ever mentioned by Jesus Christ -- because it detailed those “superstitious” “traditions” which Jesus and Paul warned about.
Early Bibles, including the KJV, placed numerous non-Biblical items within the binding of the Bibles for practical reasons. They included things like calendars, genealogies, maps, gazetteers, metrical Psalms for singing, and the Apocrypha (which shed light on just exactly what “superstitions” and “traditions” were being followed by the Jews). Even today Bibles include concordances, dictionaries, notes, histories, commentaries, and cross references. No one mistakes these for being equal to the scriptures. In 1611 and before, few people had a collection of books, most owned only one book, the Bible. Binding other materials within it served a practical need. Even today it is less expensive to print and purchase one book of 1200 pages, than two books each having 600 pages.
Unlike pure early English Bibles, such as the KJV, 1611, which separated the Apocrypha from the Bible, the corrupt Catholic bibles (e.g. New Jerusalem Bible) and their manuscripts (e.g. Vaticanus from which the TNIV, ESV, HCSB NIV, and NASB are translated) intersperse these corrupt books among those of the Bible. Rather than including them as a warning of exactly what “commandments of men” Jesus was warning about, these corrupt versions placed Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees after the book of Nehemiah; they placed Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus following the Song of Solomon and Baruch following Lamentations. The Song of Azariah, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon are included in the book of Daniel. Why? The Catholic church has adopted the “traditions of men” expounded in these books. Some of the heresies included in these books include the following taken from the New Jerusalem Bible:
1.) “[A]lmsgiving expiates sins” and “almsgiving saves from death and purges every kind of sin” (Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Tobit 12:9).
2.) Purgatory, and prayers for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:39-45).
3.) “[T]orments and the rack...irons” for the “disobedient” (Ecclesiasticus 33:24-29).
4.) The immaculate conception of Mary; reincarnation and transmigration of souls for New Agers and Hindus (Wisdom 8:19, 20).
5.) Monism and pantheism. “For your imperishable spirit is in everything!” (Wisdom 12:1). Even new versions changes, like the NKJV’s “God is spirit” (John 4:24) echo the New Age concept that god is in “everything.”
Since Catholic bibles include the Apocrypha as scripture, it becomes vital that Bibles no longer include it, even as history.
..........
Please notice what the scriptures are saying
2Co 10:11 Let such a one think this, that, such as we are in word by epistle when we are absent,
such will we be also in deed when we are present.
= the likeness and message of the authors of the New Testament is represented in word by epistle when they are absent and not present , and their very words by epistle will be the same as their deeds when they are present.
Please consider that, Jesus did command to pass out a Book of the Bible
in - Rev 22:7 { Jesus } had a direct, personal hand and personal involvement in the writing and making of the Bible.
:7 Behold, I { Jesus } come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
REMEMBER - - In The Bible, -- Christ established - A bible receiving church.
12 times in the book of Revelation, Jesus HIMSELF, COMMANDS JOHN, Saying, “ " What thou seest, write in a { Bible / Book } and send it unto the churches.
Here - JESUS ALSO NAMED, ( by direct precise exact location ) naming, by location the seven existing Churches in Asia Minor
Rev 22:7 blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
The Roman Catholic Church { Rome Location } was not listed in God’s word anywhere nor by Jesus, at any time !
Jesus listed seven Churches who were to receive the book but yet there was no Church in Rome mentioned by Jesus to receive the Book. Why would Jesus provide a list of Churches who were to receive the book but not mention the Roman Catholic Church,
not mention a Pope, not mention a successor or any church near Rome.
Jesus made a very important point to clarify the importance, significance and necessity of all scriptures.
In - Joh 10:35 - JESUS CLEARLY STATED, ““ The word of God came TO THE JUDGES and the Scripture cannot be broken; “” - Jesus also CLEARLY SAID, TRADITIONS OUTSIDE OF GODS WORD ARE void , vain. non effect - and man made.
We see the upmost importance that the authors of the New Testament placed upon handing out the Bible, distribution and delivery and circulation of copies of the New Testament.
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
Col 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise - ALSO read the epistle from Laodicea.
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
Heb 13:22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written an epistle unto you in few words.
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
2Ti 4:13 when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
Here we have the total and complete opposite of what is claimed as Catholic tradition ______ The Apostles truly were going around and passing out, handing out Books and Chapters of the Bible. The Apostles were specifically commanding that their Bible, be sent and passed and spread around and spread throughout - ALL OF THE CHURCHES. EVERYWHERE.
To all believers.
The Problem that Non - Catholics have with Catholicism - for example, in 1Ti 5:19, the Catholic Bible contradicts the original message the manuscripts.
The Catholic Bible - 1Ti 5:19 Against a “ priest “ receive not an accusation, but under two or three witnesses. ……………..
The Original manuscript message - 1Ti 5:19 Against an “ elder “ receive not an accusation , but before two or three witnesses. ……………… .
And here, we see in the very Catholic Translation itself Catholics have altered and changed and deleted the word “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros …… = ELDER “
Act 14:23 They ordained them PRIESTS in every church
Act 15:2 Paul should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and PRIEST
Tit 1:5 ordain PRIESTS in every city
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the PRIESTS
1Ti 5:17 Let the PRIESTS that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour
But this is not the Greek word for PRIESTS.
How could two bible organizations claiming to accurately translate the Holy Spirit Inspired Word Of God be translating contradictions into the same exact language ? In the New Testament, there is an extremely major and critical difference between an Elder and a Priest.
Roman Catholic faith system demands that it does not rely upon scriptures alone - as they proclaim in the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ~ SECOND EDITION # 78 -
The Catholic faith is demanding that - The living transmission, of the message of God accomplished by the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition. and # 95 - It is clear ...... Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the other.
Please notice what the scriptures are saying
2Co 10:11 Let such a one think this, that, such as we are in word by epistle when we are absent,
such will we be also in deed when we are present.
= the likeness and message of the authors of the New Testament is represented in word by epistle when they are absent and not present , and their very words by epistle will be the same as their deeds when they are present.
Please consider that, Jesus did command to pass out a Book of the Bible
in - Rev 22:7 { Jesus } had a direct, personal hand and personal involvement in the writing and making of the Bible.
:7 Behold, I { Jesus } come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
REMEMBER - - In The Bible, -- Christ established - A bible receiving church.
12 times in the book of Revelation, Jesus HIMSELF, COMMANDS JOHN, Saying, “ " What thou seest, write in a { Bible / Book } and send it unto the churches.
Here - JESUS ALSO NAMED, ( by direct precise exact location ) naming, by location the seven existing Churches in Asia Minor
Rev 22:7 blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
The Roman Catholic Church { Rome Location } was not listed in God’s word anywhere nor by Jesus, at any time !
Jesus listed seven Churches who were to receive the book but yet there was no Church in Rome mentioned by Jesus to receive the Book. Why would Jesus provide a list of Churches who were to receive the book but not mention the Roman Catholic Church,
not mention a Pope, not mention a successor or any church near Rome.
Jesus made a very important point to clarify the importance, significance and necessity of all scriptures.
In - Joh 10:35 - JESUS CLEARLY STATED, ““ The word of God came TO THE JUDGES and the Scripture cannot be broken; “” - Jesus also CLEARLY SAID, TRADITIONS OUTSIDE OF GODS WORD ARE void , vain. non effect - and man made.
We see the upmost importance that the authors of the New Testament placed upon handing out the Bible, distribution and delivery and circulation of copies of the New Testament.
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
Col 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise - ALSO read the epistle from Laodicea.
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
Heb 13:22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written an epistle unto you in few words.
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
2Ti 4:13 when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
Here we have the total and complete opposite of what is claimed as Catholic tradition ______ The Apostles truly were going around and passing out, handing out Books and Chapters of the Bible. The Apostles were specifically commanding that their Bible, be sent and passed and spread around and spread throughout - ALL OF THE CHURCHES. EVERYWHERE.
To all believers.
The Problem that Non - Catholics have with Catholicism - for example, in 1Ti 5:19, the Catholic Bible contradicts the original message the manuscripts.
The Catholic Bible - 1Ti 5:19 Against a “ priest “ receive not an accusation, but under two or three witnesses. ……………..
The Original manuscript message - 1Ti 5:19 Against an “ elder “ receive not an accusation , but before two or three witnesses. ……………… .
And here, we see in the very Catholic Translation itself Catholics have altered and changed and deleted the word “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros …… = ELDER “
Act 14:23 They ordained them PRIESTS in every church
Act 15:2 Paul should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and PRIEST
Tit 1:5 ordain PRIESTS in every city
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the PRIESTS
1Ti 5:17 Let the PRIESTS that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour
But this is not the Greek word for PRIESTS.
How could two bible organizations claiming to accurately translate the Holy Spirit Inspired Word Of God be translating contradictions into the same exact language ? In the New Testament, there is an extremely major and critical difference between an Elder and a Priest.
Roman Catholic faith system demands that it does not rely upon scriptures alone - as they proclaim in the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ~ SECOND EDITION # 78 -
The Catholic faith is demanding that - The living transmission, of the message of God accomplished by the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition. and # 95 - It is clear ...... Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the other.
.
In other words, the Bible cannot stand, cannot be valid and Scripture cannot exist / STAND cannot be legitimate without the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic teaches that - Jesus gathered the Twelve (a special priesthood) around him - Jesus gathered together, twelve special priests, But this is not what the scripture teaches.
The Roman Church attempts to support this unscriptural claim by eliminating and removing / deleting the Greek word “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDER “
and then inserting the word PRIEST …….
The Greek word πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros is not the definition meaning a priest, in fact the Roman Catholic Translation multiple times translates the word πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros as the word Priest, by deleting and removing the Greek word πρεσβύτερος - Presbuteros
and changing it into the word Priest, and then changing all of the other instances referring to elders, with the same exact word - ELDER πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros -
they change these words to say " the ancient ones " instead of elders. But all of these verses are using the Greek word “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDER “ This word has absolutely nothing to do with the meaning of a PRIEST
In Fact - Paul goes on to explain what this word means
Heb 11:1-2 By faith, the ELDERS “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDERS “ obtained a good report.
Who is Paul saying are the ELDERS - Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Sara herself was an ELDER “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDERS “ Joseph, Moses, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae; David, Samuel and the prophets: - were called ELDERS
The prostitute / harlot - Rahab the harlot - also was called an “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDER “
In fact, in the Manuscripts - there is not a single “ PRIEST “ anywhere in the entire Bible whom is called “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDER “ this is not a Biblical tradition, but simply the Roman Catholic Church removing and deleting a word and replacing it with completely different word that is not even related or associated to the other word.
How is it that that Roman Catholics pretend to have Scriptures for their faith and why would they deceive people to make the claim that Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the other. Catholics are attempting to convince people that they have manuscripts for their faith that fully support the Magisterium of the Church - in declaring that that one of these alone cannot stand without the other.
When we go through the Bible making little tiny edits to thousands of words and thousands of sentences we have a Translation of Scripture that is not in agreement with Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are not connected and not associated to one another - that neither of them are standing or in agreement with the other. Catholics are just inventing, changing and modifying Sacred Scripture and going into the manuscript deleting words, changing meanings and removing and replacing words to conform to Magisterium of the Church.
Then the life of Jesus and his teachings are meaningless, and Catholics are only demonstrating how they personally believe and feel and that it is necessary to alter and change Sacred Scripture by adding, changing and deleting and replacing words and meanings, we end up with an alternative and distorted rendering of the Sacred Scripture
The message - that is Sacred Scripture do not represent our traditions, therefore we must change and alter the Sacred Scripture
Pretending that the elders are called as Priests, this only another example of simply separating the Magisterium from Sacred Scripture and the life of Jesus.
The scriptures provide a very strict warning and caution to the error and perversity of following tradition while perverting and ignoring the word of God.
Mat 15:3 transgressing the commandment of God by your tradition
Mat 15:6 making the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men
Mar 7:9 ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition
Col 2:8 Beware ……… philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men
1Pe 1:18 ye were not redeemed by vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
In other words, the Bible cannot stand, cannot be valid and Scripture cannot exist / STAND cannot be legitimate without the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic teaches that - Jesus gathered the Twelve (a special priesthood) around him - Jesus gathered together, twelve special priests, But this is not what the scripture teaches.
The Roman Church attempts to support this unscriptural claim by eliminating and removing / deleting the Greek word “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDER “
and then inserting the word PRIEST …….
The Greek word πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros is not the definition meaning a priest, in fact the Roman Catholic Translation multiple times translates the word πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros as the word Priest, by deleting and removing the Greek word πρεσβύτερος - Presbuteros
and changing it into the word Priest, and then changing all of the other instances referring to elders, with the same exact word - ELDER πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros -
they change these words to say " the ancient ones " instead of elders. But all of these verses are using the Greek word “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDER “ This word has absolutely nothing to do with the meaning of a PRIEST
In Fact - Paul goes on to explain what this word means
Heb 11:1-2 By faith, the ELDERS “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDERS “ obtained a good report.
Who is Paul saying are the ELDERS - Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Sara herself was an ELDER “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDERS “ Joseph, Moses, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae; David, Samuel and the prophets: - were called ELDERS
The prostitute / harlot - Rahab the harlot - also was called an “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDER “
In fact, in the Manuscripts - there is not a single “ PRIEST “ anywhere in the entire Bible whom is called “ πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros = ELDER “ this is not a Biblical tradition, but simply the Roman Catholic Church removing and deleting a word and replacing it with completely different word that is not even related or associated to the other word.
How is it that that Roman Catholics pretend to have Scriptures for their faith and why would they deceive people to make the claim that Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the other. Catholics are attempting to convince people that they have manuscripts for their faith that fully support the Magisterium of the Church - in declaring that that one of these alone cannot stand without the other.
When we go through the Bible making little tiny edits to thousands of words and thousands of sentences we have a Translation of Scripture that is not in agreement with Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are not connected and not associated to one another - that neither of them are standing or in agreement with the other. Catholics are just inventing, changing and modifying Sacred Scripture and going into the manuscript deleting words, changing meanings and removing and replacing words to conform to Magisterium of the Church.
Then the life of Jesus and his teachings are meaningless, and Catholics are only demonstrating how they personally believe and feel and that it is necessary to alter and change Sacred Scripture by adding, changing and deleting and replacing words and meanings, we end up with an alternative and distorted rendering of the Sacred Scripture
The message - that is Sacred Scripture do not represent our traditions, therefore we must change and alter the Sacred Scripture
Pretending that the elders are called as Priests, this only another example of simply separating the Magisterium from Sacred Scripture and the life of Jesus.
The scriptures provide a very strict warning and caution to the error and perversity of following tradition while perverting and ignoring the word of God.
Mat 15:3 transgressing the commandment of God by your tradition
Mat 15:6 making the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men
Mar 7:9 ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition
Col 2:8 Beware ……… philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men
1Pe 1:18 ye were not redeemed by vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
.
The scriptures support a very strict importance to abide and be guided and to follow the scriptures
Joh 5:39 Search the scripture
Dan 10:21 I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth
Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture
Mar 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled
Luk 4:21 This day is this scripture fulfilled
Joh 2:22 his disciples remembered……. and …………… believed the scripture
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said
Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said
Joh 10:35 the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 13:18 + Joh 17:12 + Joh 19:24 + Joh 19:28 + Joh 19:36 that the scripture may be fulfilled
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture says
Joh 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture
Act 1:16 this scripture must needs have been fulfilled
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture
Rom 9:17 + Rom 10:11 For the scripture says
Rom 11:2 Know ye not what the scripture saith
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Jas 2:8 the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture
2Pe 1:20 no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The position of the Roman Catholic is one of complete inconsistency and contradiction -
The catholic attempts to portray a message - that Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the other.
But the Catholic Church did not produce a translation of the Old Testament until 400 years after Christ
and also, did not produce a New Testament translation into a modern language - until nearly 2000 years after Christ.
This shows that the deliberate intentional plan to deprive the populations of the scriptures and to place all their trust upon Catholic tradition - without scriptures to verify and CONNECT… -
The traditions are not connected to Sacred Scripture, in fact, Catholics are altering and changing the Sacred Scripture to codify, mold and conform and change the Sacred Scripture to connect to the Magisterium traditions.
The scriptures support a very strict importance to abide and be guided and to follow the scriptures
Joh 5:39 Search the scripture
Dan 10:21 I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth
Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture
Mar 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled
Luk 4:21 This day is this scripture fulfilled
Joh 2:22 his disciples remembered……. and …………… believed the scripture
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said
Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said
Joh 10:35 the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 13:18 + Joh 17:12 + Joh 19:24 + Joh 19:28 + Joh 19:36 that the scripture may be fulfilled
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture says
Joh 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture
Act 1:16 this scripture must needs have been fulfilled
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture
Rom 9:17 + Rom 10:11 For the scripture says
Rom 11:2 Know ye not what the scripture saith
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Jas 2:8 the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture
2Pe 1:20 no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The position of the Roman Catholic is one of complete inconsistency and contradiction -
The catholic attempts to portray a message - that Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the other.
But the Catholic Church did not produce a translation of the Old Testament until 400 years after Christ
and also, did not produce a New Testament translation into a modern language - until nearly 2000 years after Christ.
This shows that the deliberate intentional plan to deprive the populations of the scriptures and to place all their trust upon Catholic tradition - without scriptures to verify and CONNECT… -
The traditions are not connected to Sacred Scripture, in fact, Catholics are altering and changing the Sacred Scripture to codify, mold and conform and change the Sacred Scripture to connect to the Magisterium traditions.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yeah, we Protestants already know all about this about the Catholic system. That's why Protestant Christianity exists. But the Catholic system is still... not the main deception that will cause many believers to fall away at the END of this world. Instead, there will be coming a false-Messiah to Jerusalem working supernatural miracles claiming to be God, and it ain't gonna' be no pope. Even the pope will likely push the idea that false-Messiah is Jesus Christ having returned.
Athanasius377
Member
I agree that Presbyters are not priests, I could only find one translation into English that translates πρεσβύτερος as priest. The Douay-Rheims Challoner revision (really a new translation at the time as the original DR is unintelligible for the most part) uses priest for πρεσβύτερος.
Consider the following:
The Latin Vulgate translates it correctly:
Adversus presbyterum accusationem noli recipere, nisi sub duobus aut tribus testibus
Biblia Sacra Juxta Vulgatam Clementinam. Ed. electronica, Logos Bible Software, 2005, p. 1 Ti 5:19.
Here are more modern Catholic English translations that translate πρεσβύτερος correctly.
Do not accept an accusation against a presbyter unless it is supported by two or three witnesses.
New American Bible. Revised Edition, The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 2011, p. 1 Ti 5:19.
19 Never accept any accusation brought against an elder unless it is supported by two or three witnesses.
The New Jerusalem Bible. Doubleday, 1985, p. 1 Ti 5:19.
Never admit any charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Catholic Biblical Association (Great Britain). The Holy Bible: Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition. National Council of Churches of Christ in the USA, 1994, p. 1 Ti 5:19.
Never accept any accusation against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition. National Council of Churches of Christ, 1993, p. 1 Ti 5:19.
Never admit any charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
The Holy Bible. Revised Standard Version; Second Catholic Edition, Ignatius Press, 2006, p. 1 Ti 5:19.
To be fair, Rome sees presbyters as priests, which is far more problematic than the accusation of a mistranslation. I would even say that Bishop Challoner did interpretive work as opposed to a mistranslation. Even the Haydock commentary on Scripture acknolwdges that priest is not the correct word.
Ver. 19. Against a priest. The word presbyter is commonly here expounded of bishops and priests; though S. Chrys. understands it of men advanced in age.—Receive not an accusation; i.e. do not sit as judge, nor hearken to such information. Wi.
Haydock, George Leo. Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary. Edward Dunigan and Brother, 1859, p. 1 Ti 5:19.
All this to say that if the accusation is that Rome deleted elder and added priest; all the lay catholic would need to do is open his/her modern catholic bible and see that this is not the case and proceed to ignore everything else that was said.
A.
thanks very much for your valuable time to reply. Especially these days as the " World Bank Club " / American Socialism Distribution .gov takes a lot of our time and energy to serve and build the " World Bank Organization "
i agree with you and this saddens me very greatly to think that the Catholic Church would produce different translations that change and vary from Priest to Elder to insinuate that these words are interchangeable or to suggest even that Catholic Tradition is more important and stable that the Bible itself..
see what i mean ?
in other words, the Bible may change and be altered through the ages but it's the Catholic Oral Tradition that remains truth and firm despite how the Bible may change and vary from translation to translation.
this is a very deceptive organization that fills the word with deception while conditioning its offspring to be deceptive..............
Catholics and Muslims fill their Children's world with golden and silver vessels, with fine arts of fabulous ordained shining frills and decor, with dedicated arts symbols of sliver and gold and gold plates, golden stars and altars of elaborate decoration.
They fill their Children's world with majestic ornamental beauty layered in gold and silver - - with precious stones and colors of elaborate beauty - this is the way their children are conditioned and trained from birth to think that they are a part of something beautiful, special and wonderful.
this has an effect upon the mind of a little child who is conditioned and stimulated to see all of these things as the child will grow and be developed and conditioned thinking that other people of other religions whom do not have these things are inferior and beneath them or just simply not as special as themselves or simply are less important less and godly.
this conditioning slowly evolves in the mind of a little child and is solidified in making a fervent and dedicated believer and made permanent by the fact that Catholics and Muslims do everything to put these things in the place of God himself and his Holy Word, which is the only thing that endures forever.
the words of their own lips and works of their own hands are the god they serve.
i agree with you and this saddens me very greatly to think that the Catholic Church would produce different translations that change and vary from Priest to Elder to insinuate that these words are interchangeable or to suggest even that Catholic Tradition is more important and stable that the Bible itself..
see what i mean ?
in other words, the Bible may change and be altered through the ages but it's the Catholic Oral Tradition that remains truth and firm despite how the Bible may change and vary from translation to translation.
this is a very deceptive organization that fills the word with deception while conditioning its offspring to be deceptive..............
Catholics and Muslims fill their Children's world with golden and silver vessels, with fine arts of fabulous ordained shining frills and decor, with dedicated arts symbols of sliver and gold and gold plates, golden stars and altars of elaborate decoration.
They fill their Children's world with majestic ornamental beauty layered in gold and silver - - with precious stones and colors of elaborate beauty - this is the way their children are conditioned and trained from birth to think that they are a part of something beautiful, special and wonderful.
this has an effect upon the mind of a little child who is conditioned and stimulated to see all of these things as the child will grow and be developed and conditioned thinking that other people of other religions whom do not have these things are inferior and beneath them or just simply not as special as themselves or simply are less important less and godly.
this conditioning slowly evolves in the mind of a little child and is solidified in making a fervent and dedicated believer and made permanent by the fact that Catholics and Muslims do everything to put these things in the place of God himself and his Holy Word, which is the only thing that endures forever.
the words of their own lips and works of their own hands are the god they serve.
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