PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[Spiritual Israelite]

The word "nations" is translated from the Greek word "ethnos" which can mean people in general, the heathen, the Gentiles and other things. In this case it's referring to people in general and they are all separated to Christ's right hand (the sheep) and left hand (the goats).

I already told you who the chosen are. It's us. The church.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.


Those who belong to Christ, of course. The church. You need to learn to allow scripture to interpret scripture for you.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The "one fold" of the one shepherd, Jesus, is the church consisting of "this fold" (Jewish believers) and another fold with "other sheep" (Gentile believers) that were joined together into the one fold.


They're not. Where do you get that idea from? After the angels gather the church we are then brought before the throne of Jesus after which we are moved to His right hand with unbelievers being moved to His left hand.


The goats are unbelievers. The lost. The unsaved. Those whose names are not written in the book of life. That's why it says they are cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) at that time, which is the same as the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15).

If you look at the text closely you should see that each person is judged according to whether they served Jesus or not. He commands us to love others as we love ourselves, so the things He talks about are the kinds of things we do to love others and to serve Him. As He said, people are known by their fruit, which represent their works (Matthew 7:16-20). It doesn't mean we are saved by works, it means our works reflect what kind of faith we have and who we serve.

Notice how @marks didn't address anything I said in this post and just picked out one thing from what I said here (first sentence of the last paragraph) and accused me of supposedly rewording the text with no explanation of why he was accusing me of that. How convenient for him to do that while not addressing anything else I said in this post. Looks like he just made up an excuse to avoid addressing my points.

 

[Scott Downey]

God saw the fathers of Isael as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time, but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The church was not an afterthought.
Everything that occurred was by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God.
And that includes our particular salvation.

 

[The Light]

That is not a question that has anything to do with being Amil or Premil. Watching and being ready has to do with being spiritually in right standing with God and being in spiritual light instead of spiritual darkness.

And yet both with wise virgins and foolish virgins have oil.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

The Church will already be in heaven at this point. Those that are not in darkness will be of the 12 tribes. That day will not take they unaware as they will know He is coming for them at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets

To watch and be ready involves being careful to be spiritually awake and sober. To be aware of deception and to avoid spiritual darkness.

When the pretribulation rapture occurs, many will buy the lie. Aliens have come. News reports, fake stories, alien ships flying down the street, holograms, you will see it all............and you will believe what your eyes see. That is the deception that will fool the world.

 

[Scott Downey]

For the great day of His wrath has come and who is able to stand. This occurs at the 6th seal. The kings are hiding in the caves because they see Jesus in the clouds sending His angels to gather the elect.

The 7th seal is not even open yet which is the wrath of God.

Then when is the second coming of Rev 19 on white horses in power and glory.
There is a pretrib gathering in 1 thes 4, acts 1, Matt 24, Matt 25, the last supper dialogue,the 2 escape verses, and others.
Then a rapture of the jews midtrib ( or some say postrib prewrath...whatever).
Then comes the last half of the trib or great trib or Daniel's 70th week or " the wrath" , or whatever men are now arguing.

But the white horses coming of Rev 19, ENDS the 70th week, or gt, or wrath , or 7 yr trib, ...or whatever men are now calling Daniel's 70th week.
THAT is the SECOND COMING.

The Mid tribulation, gathering of the chews in revelation, chapter 14.
Is the only other gathering of saints.besides the pretribe rapture.
As far as end times
The gathering postrib( post wrath,post gt, post 70th week ) is mat24 "after the trib angels gather in heaven". The saints are gathered post wedding supper in heaven (the bride becoming the wife in Rev 19 as declared) To THE WHITE HORSES IN HEAVEN. GATHERED TO MOUNT HORSES.
( MAT 24 " gathering by angels in heaven").

​

Both Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are the same gathering, and it is not just those in heaven, it includes those on earth
You have missed the mark here, by saying this is only a heavenly gathering.
You are proven to be in error.
All the elect in heaven and on earth are gathered together at Christ's coming.

Matthew 24

The Coming of the Son of Man​

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No further proof is needed as the error is exposed. Meaning your entire supposition is bogus, trying to be nice about!

 

[The Light]

Have you never actually read John 10? The first fold is what Jesus called "this fold" when talking about Jewish believers and here you are trying to say "the first fold is the Gentiles"? You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Don't be ignorant of this mystery.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Also, the seed of the woman are said to be Jesus Himself (Rev 12:5) and those who follow Him (Rev 12:17), so there is no basis for saying the second fold are the Jews. You have things completely the wrong way around. The first fold Jesus talked about in John 10 were Jewish believers and the "other sheep" He referred to were Gentile believers. Together, Jew and Gentile believers make up one fold, one new man, one body, one church, with Jesus Christ as the shepherd and chief cornerstone. How can you not discern simple, fundamental things like this? I have to speak to you as someone who is carnal and just a babe in Christ rather than someone who is spiritual and mature because you are just sipping on milk and not ready for solid food.

I don't expect you to understand this, but I will post it for those with eyes to see.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

 

[The Light]

The church was not an afterthought.
Everything that occurred was by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God.
And that includes our particular salvation.

Cause..............effect.

 

[Scott Downey]

You want to read about the gathering?
And it is the gathering of the elect saints, as in people for Matthew 24 and Mark 13

'even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.' (the dead saints in Christ, living in heaven)
'then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds' (the living saints on earth)

1 Thessalonians 4

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[WPM]

I'm sorry, nevermind, I should not have replied to you.

This is a perfect example. That's a rewording of the text to make it say something different.

I'm interested in discussing Scripture with those who do not change it.

Much love!

More avoidance and useless reasoning.

 

[The Light]

​

Both Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are the same gathering, and it is not just those in heaven, it includes those on earth
You have missed the mark here, by saying this is only a heavenly gathering.
You are proven to be in error.
All the elect in heaven and on earth are gathered together at Christ's coming.

Matthew 24

The Coming of the Son of Man​

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No further proof is needed as the error is exposed. Meaning your entire supposition is bogus, trying to be nice about!

I don't know if you are talking to me or rebuilder 454.

If you are talking to me your conclusion would be in error as I know that the gathering is from both heaven and earth. It is the Church that is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth that are gathered from the earth at the 6th seal. This happens immediately after the tribulation and before the 7th seal wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

You want to read about the gathering?
And it is the gathering of the elect saints, as in people for Matthew 24 and Mark 13

'even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.' (the dead saints in Christ, living in heaven)
'then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds' (the living saints on earth)

1 Thessalonians 4

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Certainly, this is what is commonly taught. Now let's get to the facts. The dead in Christ rise first in the spring. This is the barley harvest. The alive remain. When the Lord returns for the alive the remain at the end of summer He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. The end of summer harvest for the that remain is the wheat harvest.

Then the Lord will return for the fruit harvest in the fall. There are two raptures.

 

[Scott Downey]

I don't know if you are talking to me or rebuilder 454.

If you are talking to me your conclusion would be in error as I know that the gathering is from both heaven and earth. It is the Church that is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth that are gathered from the earth at the 6th seal. This happens immediately after the tribulation and before the 7th seal wrath of God.

Was responding to rebuilder.

However, since the gathering Jesus describes is after the tribulation of those days, and is of the elect, then you can know the classic rapture theme of 1 Thess 4 is the same even as described in Matt 24, and Mark 13

And is on the LAST DAY.
The LAST DAY is the resurrection of the dead.

 

[The Light]

More avoidance and useless reasoning.

I'm going to have to agree with you partially. It certainly appears to be avoidance.

The reasoning however appears to be spot on.

 

[Scott Downey]

Certainly, this is what is commonly taught. Now let's get to the facts. The dead in Christ rise first in the spring. This is the barley harvest. The alive remain. When the Lord returns for the alive the remain at the end of summer He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. The end of summer harvest for the that remain is the wheat harvest.

Then the Lord will return for the fruit harvest in the fall. There are two raptures.

The dead in Christ rise on the LAST DAY
So, can not be any more days after the last day for this world, can you see the connection?
Can not be a another gathering after the last day.
Think about it.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

 

[The Light]

However, since the gathering Jesus describes is after the tribulation of those days, and is of the elect, then you can know the classic rapture theme of 1 Thess 4 is the same even as described in Matt 24, and Mark 13

Absolutely not. 1 Thes 4 is the rapture of the Church which happens before the great tribulation.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the one-year wrath of God begins.

And is on the LAST DAY.

The last day of the age occurs at the 6th seal.

The LAST DAY is the resurrection of the dead.

The last day being talked about occurs at the 6th seal.

Many of them which sleep in the in the dust of the earth will be raised.

Daniel
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is not the resurrection that takes place after the 7th trumpet is blown.

 

[Scott Downey]

Absolutely not. 1 Thes 4 is the rapture of the Church which happens before the great tribulation.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the one-year wrath of God begins.


The last day of the age occurs at the 6th seal.



The last day being talked about occurs at the 6th seal.

Many of them which sleep in the in the dust of the earth will be raised.

Daniel
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is not the resurrection that takes place after the 7th trumpet is blown.

You writing out impossible things here, Why don't you face your error from post #590, as I pointed out to the forum participants.

The resurrection is when the dead in Christ rise first, and that is on the last day.
So there can be no more days left for this world after the coming of the Lord for another gathering off the earth.

 

[The Light]

The dead in Christ rise on the LAST DAY

The dead in Christ will rise when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

So, can not be any more days after the last day for this world, can you see the connection?
Can not be a another gathering after the last day.
Think about it.

Think about this. MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth will be raised. Not all of them, many of them. This is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. You are confusing the judgement that occurs after the 7th trumpet when the dead are raised and judged with those that are believers in the Messiah.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

The last day of the age is the 6th seal. You are confusing the judgement of the dead after the 7th trumpet with the many that are raised at the 6th seal.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And yet both with wise virgins and foolish virgins have oil.

What is your point? Speak clearly.

The Church will already be in heaven at this point.

No, the church will be with Christ in the air at that point as they would have been caught up to Him just prior to that because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 is all one event.

Those that are not in darkness will be of the 12 tribes.

No, that will be the church because we are not in spiritual darkness. Paul was writing to Jew and Gentile believers in Thessalonica in 1 Thess 5 and he said in verse 4 "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.", so he was clearly speaking in the context of the church including Jew and Gentile believers there and not just those who are of the 12 tribes.

That day will not take they unaware as they will know He is coming for them at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets

It's not saying they will know exactly when He is coming. But, the difference between those of us who are in spirtual light in contrast with those who are in spiritual darkness is that we are expecting Him to come and they are not. So, we will not be caught completely by surprise whenever He does come because we are expecting Him to come. Those in spiritual darkness will be caught completely off guard since they are not even expecting Him to come at all.

When the pretribulation rapture occurs, many will buy the lie.

LOL. There is no pretribulation rapture except in your active imagination.

Aliens have come.

LOL. Another example of your active imagination.

News reports, fake stories, alien ships flying down the street, holograms, you will see it all............and you will believe what your eyes see. That is the deception that will fool the world.

Pre-tribs are always given to sensationalism rather than the truth. Has it taken any of that sensationalistic kind of stuff to deceive many people into thinking that LGBTQ+ is acceptable rather than the abomination to God that it is? Or into thinking that killing unborn babies is a choice rather than being murder in God's eyes? Your made for movies doctrine only comes from your imagination and not from scripture.

 

[Scott Downey]

Paul specifically wrote 1 Thess 4 to emphasize that no one of the saints is left behind, we who are left alive do not precede those who died in the Lord, the dead are not forgotten.

The dead in Christ will rise first, as they are dead, this must be their resurrection.
Then we will be taken up into the air, and all of us will be changed.
All this happens on the last day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Think about this. MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth will be raised. Not all of them, many of them. This is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. You are confusing the judgement that occurs after the 7th trumpet when the dead are raised and judged with those that are believers in the Messiah.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The last day of the age is the 6th seal. You are confusing the judgement of the dead after the 7th trumpet with the many that are raised at the 6th seal.

Stop your nonsense already. Many does not mean not all. Other translations have translate the Hebrews word as "multitudes". It's just a reference to the number of all of those who will be resurrected, which is many or multitudes.

Jesus said ALL will be resurrected at the same time, not just some, so listen to Jesus and let Him interpret Daniel 12:2 for you.

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

When the hour comes that Jesus returns, all of the dead, whose number is described as "multitudes" in Daniel 12:2, will be resurrected with some then inheriting eternal life and some being condemned to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Scott Downey]

The dead in Christ will rise when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.


Think about this. MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth will be raised. Not all of them, many of them. This is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. You are confusing the judgement that occurs after the 7th trumpet when the dead are raised and judged with those that are believers in the Messiah.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The last day of the age is the 6th seal. You are confusing the judgement of the dead after the 7th trumpet with the many that are raised at the 6th seal.

When Christ returns is the LAST DAY
It is also the resurrection of all people saved or unsaved and the judgement
His appearing is the return of Christ when every eye will see Him.

Example
I charge you [a]therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead [b]at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

You don't seem to believe this occurs on the LAST DAY of this world.
You seem to believe there are many more days left of this world after the LAST DAY

Do you even believe that there is a Last Day?
And 'Last Day' is not Last Days, there is a big difference.