Science is bringing us closer than ever to proving God is real

[ScottA]

If you honestly believe you can't even prove someone has kissed you, or demonstrate evidence of a love relationship, then you are beyond the pale of rational discourse.

But YOU HAVE NOT PROVED IT.

That's a fail. You got nothing.

 

[Strider324]

But YOU HAVE NOT PROVED IT.

That's a fail. You got nothing.

I don't need to post a photo of my daughter kissing me just to prove your ignorance of the fact of kissing. You should have enough integrity to simply admit that you made a poor choice by demanding anyone prove they have been kissed. It's made you look foolish. Let me know if you can locate an intelligent argument that doesn't make you sound like someone off their meds.

 

[Brakelite]

Science can never explain love. The self sacrificing acts of love on behalf of others. Science is predicated on self preservation. Survival. The very opposite to the nature of the God Who created all things. Science can observe one species surviving due to dependance on the death of others. It can observe the symbiotic relationship between species whereby some live off the feeding of parasites on others this ensuring the well-being off the host for example. But science cannot explain why. Nor can science explain why or how humans survive better and live healthier lives the more they give away.

 

[JustMe]

The bodily resurrection of the Messiah is sufficient proof to me that the God of Israel exists.

I was speaking of the absolute, higher proof that no man can come close to knowing about God, because God is the ultimate creator spirit. Yes, the ultimate miracle of God for his Son's resurrected new life is remarkable, and so are other miracles we have faith in and credit our God for them all. As he is the essence of all life as we know it.

 

[Strider324]

Science can never explain love. The self sacrificing acts of love on behalf of others. Science is predicated on self preservation. Survival. The very opposite to the nature of the God Who created all things. Science can observe one species surviving due to dependance on the death of others. It can observe the symbiotic relationship between species whereby some live off the feeding of parasites on others this ensuring the well-being off the host for example. But science cannot explain why. Nor can science explain why or how humans survive better and live healthier lives the more they give away.

Nonsense. Science easily explains the existence and necessity of love relationships and why they exist via the evolved survival trait of empathy - which leads to the cooperation needed for social animals in groups to achieve the survival of their species. A wolf will risk sacrificing itself to save its cubs from a predator. Does that mean it believes in some god?? A gorilla that we put in a cage for our amusement protected a child that fell into its enclosure and returned it unharmed to its keepers. Do you really think it was responding to some scripture that it read?

 

[ScottA]

I don't need to post a photo of my daughter kissing me just to prove your ignorance of the fact of kissing. You should have enough integrity to simply admit that you made a poor choice by demanding anyone prove they have been kissed. It's made you look foolish. Let me know if you can locate an intelligent argument that doesn't make you sound like someone off their meds.

YOU STILL HAVE NOT PROVED ANYTHING. A photo is not even necessarily proof either, and even kissing after the fact does does not prove a prior claim. Shall we go on, with me making the same demands of proof but only within the limits I set, as atheists do regarding proof of God? You think it's ridiculous? It is--as I have just demonstrated, putting the shoe on the other foot--on you. Well, look in the mirror, that is all that atheists have done...and yes, it's ridiculous.

 

[Brakelite]

Nonsense. Science easily explains the existence and necessity of love relationships and why they exist via the evolved survival trait of empathy - which leads to the cooperation needed for social animals in groups to achieve the survival of their species. A wolf will risk sacrificing itself to save its cubs from a predator. Does that mean it believes in some god?? A gorilla that we put in a cage for our amusement protected a child that fell into its enclosure and returned it unharmed to its keepers. Do you really think it was responding to some scripture that it read?

A wolf will also eat you if you are alone in the wild. A gorilla in the wild will not tolerate you if you get too close. How many millions of years did it take for species to learn empathy? In the meantime, how did they survive? Survival of the fittest supposedly. But then after millions of years of trial and error they decided love was best? Mmmm.

 

[Strider324]

YOU STILL HAVE NOT PROVED ANYTHING. A photo is not even necessarily proof either, and even kissing after the fact does does not prove a prior claim. Shall we go on, with me making the same demands of proof but only within the limits I set, as atheists do regarding proof of God? You think it's ridiculous? It is--as I have just demonstrated, putting the shoe on the other foot--on you. Well, look in the mirror, that is all that atheists have done...and yes, it's ridiculous.

Why are you whining to me about proving some god? I have never demanded proof, and neither have millions of non-believers. Lumping all Atheists together has the same effect as me lumping all Christians in with the Westboro Baptist Church. All most of us ask for is reasonable evidence of the god claims people make. Your burden has never been to provide absolute proof - but to merely be able to remove reasonable doubt - and you can't seem to even manage that. I remember when Christians thought they could provide evidence for their god just from the bible. Having utterly failed to do so, they have expanded their desperate apologetics to the point where they now are hoping quantum mechanics or black holes will somehow provide evidence that reasonable minds will accept. Your alleged lord and savior made the clear and unambiguous claim 2000 years ago that he would return with his kingdom - during the lives of those standing there listening to him. Even Paul preached that 'the time is near'. And ever since then, your invented religion has had NOTHING to say other than to mumble the same cultic mantra over and over.... "He's coming soon". And his tardiness so long ago became so embarrassing that your religion had to invent wholly self-serving apologetics - "Well.... um.... 'soon' is a relative term..... and.... oh yeah - a day is like a thousand years!" So please, spare us your incredulity that we express skepticism in the face of centuries of such abject failure and excuses.

Quit worrying about what some non-believers might demand, and maybe work at providing responses to legitimate questions that don't make your religion look so much like it was the work of either ignorant iron age barbarians that didn't know where the sun went at night - or 3rd century power mongers set on turning you into credulous and unthinking tithing machines, counting on your lust for eternal life and your fear of eternal suffering to keep you going to the bank....

 

[David in NJ]

Nonsense. Science easily explains the existence and necessity of love relationships and why they exist via the evolved survival trait of empathy - which leads to the cooperation needed for social animals in groups to achieve the survival of their species. A wolf will risk sacrificing itself to save its cubs from a predator. Does that mean it believes in some god?? A gorilla that we put in a cage for our amusement protected a child that fell into its enclosure and returned it unharmed to its keepers. Do you really think it was responding to some scripture that it read?

the animals 'sense' there is a God who created them = otherwise the Lions would of eaten Daniel

God shut the mouths of the Lions = How did He do that? = By His Spirit which the Lions obeyed/submitted

 

[Strider324]

A wolf will also eat you if you are alone in the wild. A gorilla in the wild will not tolerate you if you get too close. How many millions of years did it take for species to learn empathy? In the meantime, how did they survive? Survival of the fittest supposedly. But then after millions of years of trial and error they decided love was best? Mmmm.

Thanx for so eloquently outlining the fact that species evolve over billions of years.
And isn't if fortunate that the empathy that moves social animals to generally prefer cooperation over mass individual annihilation evolved over 75 million years ago - eventually resulting in primitive Man seeking to encourage cooperation and express compassion millions of years before religions decided to take credit for inventing it?

Still, we have much room for continued social evolution. Perhaps one day we won't have large groups that use their holy texts to justify the slaughter of 6 million members of their sister religion. Or other large groups that fly planes into buildings in the name of their 'religion of peace'. Or groups that demonize gay and trans children. Or groups that infiltrate school boards for the sole purpose of throwing out actual science and history books to replace them with ID nonsense and racial revisionism. Yes. I have a dream.....

 

[Strider324]

the animals 'sense' there is a God who created them = otherwise the Lions would of eaten Daniel

God shut the mouths of the Lions = How did He do that? = By His Spirit which the Lions obeyed/submitted

Or... your god simply stopped the lions. Or... this is just another invented story designed to keep Christians in line. So many possibilities....

 

[David in NJ]

Or... your god simply stopped the lions. Or... this is just another invented story designed to keep Christians in line. So many possibilities....

FYI - i love science = factual science

Actually this rare event has been repeated with various animals throughout time/history.

The animal kingdom is yearning for the Return of the Creator that they may be RELEASED from the bondage and horrific effect of sin that governs this age in which we presently exist.

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

 

[Strider324]

FYI - i love science = factual science

Actually this rare event has been repeated with various animals throughout time/history.

The animal kingdom is yearning for the Return of the Creator that they may be RELEASED from the bondage and horrific effect of sin that governs this age in which we presently exist.

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

So, rocks and trees and rivers are ‘groaning with birth pangs’? Lions are in bondage of sin? You consider that to be literal? Sounds more like you applying eisegesis to support a claim you trapped yourself into. The story has Daniel himself claiming that this god simply sent an angel to shut the lions mouths. Nothing about lions ‘sensing’ or ‘yearning’, is there?

 

[David in NJ]

So, rocks and trees and rivers are ‘groaning with birth pangs’? Lions are in bondage of sin? You consider that to be literal? Sounds more like you applying eisegesis to support a claim you trapped yourself into. The story has Daniel himself claiming that this god simply sent an angel to shut the lions mouths. Nothing about lions ‘sensing’ or ‘yearning’, is there?

This is GREAT - ty

You just exited from science and applied human reasoning to understand that which is scientifically beyond our understanding =
UNTIL, that which the Creator of factual science reveals by the Spirit that which is unattainable by the scientific community known as mankind.

The story has Daniel himself claiming that this god simply sent an angel to shut the lions mouths. Nothing about lions ‘sensing’ or ‘yearning’, is there?

Again - TY
YES, in fact the Lions were sensing two distinct inherent elements from within and without.

Same as yourself = when we sense things are not 'right' or 'danger' or 'foreboding' and 'terror' or when we sense things such things as 'love' 'peace' 'tranquility'

 

[ScottA]

Why are you whining to me about proving some god? I have never demanded proof, and neither have millions of non-believers. Lumping all Atheists together has the same effect as me lumping all Christians in with the Westboro Baptist Church. All most of us ask for is reasonable evidence of the god claims people make. Your burden has never been to provide absolute proof - but to merely be able to remove reasonable doubt - and you can't seem to even manage that. I remember when Christians thought they could provide evidence for their god just from the bible. Having utterly failed to do so, they have expanded their desperate apologetics to the point where they now are hoping quantum mechanics or black holes will somehow provide evidence that reasonable minds will accept. Your alleged lord and savior made the clear and unambiguous claim 2000 years ago that he would return with his kingdom - during the lives of those standing there listening to him. Even Paul preached that 'the time is near'. And ever since then, your invented religion has had NOTHING to say other than to mumble the same cultic mantra over and over.... "He's coming soon". And his tardiness so long ago became so embarrassing that your religion had to invent wholly self-serving apologetics - "Well.... um.... 'soon' is a relative term..... and.... oh yeah - a day is like a thousand years!" So please, spare us your incredulity that we express skepticism in the face of centuries of such abject failure and excuses.

Quit worrying about what some non-believers might demand, and maybe work at providing responses to legitimate questions that don't make your religion look so much like it was the work of either ignorant iron age barbarians that didn't know where the sun went at night - or 3rd century power mongers set on turning you into credulous and unthinking tithing machines, counting on your lust for eternal life and your fear of eternal suffering to keep you going to the bank....

I was responding to your confusion regarding science, Christians, and proof.

As for a reasonable explanation, the Bible in addition to the natural and scientific evidence, is what is offered and is limited on purpose. You are supposed to be able to connect the dots, and if you cannot, it is an indication that you really have no desire to. That dividing line is in place--just as it is written, to "divide the light from the darkness."

And with that, it is obvious you have heard enough.

 

[Strider324]

This is GREAT - ty

You just exited from science and applied human reasoning to understand that which is scientifically beyond our understanding =
UNTIL, that which the Creator of factual science reveals by the Spirit that which is unattainable by the scientific community known as mankind.


Again - TY
YES, in fact the Lions were sensing two distinct inherent elements from within and without.

Same as yourself = when we sense things are not 'right' or 'danger' or 'foreboding' and 'terror' or when we sense things such things as 'love' 'peace' 'tranquility'

lol. That isn’t even close to what happened. I asked you if you believed rocks and trees groaned and yearned and whether you took that as literal or just another verse that many Christians now consider to be metaphor. You refused to answer the first - and instead went into some happy dance instead. You then presented a non-scriptural claim about lions sensing blah blah - when the scripture simply has your god sending an angel to keep the lions mouths shut. Is adding to scripture an accepted practice in whatever sect of Christianity you belong to?
I never exited from either science or human reasoning - as there is a science of psychology that assists me in determining whether you are rational or not. And there is a science that helps to evaluate whether you have intellectual integrity and to what degree.
So, have you had enough joy in this thread to answer my questions? Do you believe that rocks and trees are literally groaning and yearning, or do you consider that claim to be metaphor or allegory? That will tell me something actually useful.

 

[David in NJ]

lol. That isn’t even close to what happened. I asked you if you believed rocks and trees groaned and yearned and whether you took that as literal or just another verse that many Christians now consider to be metaphor. You refused to answer the first - and instead went into some happy dance instead. You then presented a non-scriptural claim about lions sensing blah blah - when the scripture simply has your god sending an angel to keep the lions mouths shut. Is adding to scripture an accepted practice in whatever sect of Christianity you belong to?
I never exited from either science or human reasoning - as there is a science of psychology that assists me in determining whether you are rational or not. And there is a science that helps to evaluate whether you have intellectual integrity and to what degree.
So, have you had enough joy in this thread to answer my questions? Do you believe that rocks and trees are literally groaning and yearning, or do you consider that claim to be metaphor or allegory? That will tell me something actually useful.

I never exited from either science or human reasoning - as there is a science of psychology that assists me in determining whether you are rational or not.

The science of psychology is ever morphing - as are many sciences

i answered you but you chose not to enlarge your understanding

SEE if you can understand this FACTUAL Event

A customer of mine called me and said a tree crashed down in his yard.
i get to his house and we proceed to the backyard, where a fallen tree lay on the ground
Now here is the FACTUAL account that you need to HEAR with your heart and mind

The man was cutting his grass with a loud gas lawnmower.
In addition to the noise of the lawnmower, he had Radio Earmuffs on listening to music to drown out the lawnmower noise.

The tree had not yet fallen WHILE he was cutting the grass - something intangible overwhelmed him with FEAR and urged him to RUN

IMMEDIATELY he left the mower and BOLTED to the house and the TREE CRASHED down on the mower where he was cutting grass.

Who told him to RUN
Who/What knew he was about to DIE or at the very least sustained life threatening injuries.
How can this occur if there is no Realm beyond the physical environment

 

[Strider324]

I was responding to your confusion regarding science, Christians, and proof.

As for a reasonable explanation, the Bible in addition to the natural and scientific evidence, is what is offered and is limited on purpose. You are supposed to be able to connect the dots, and if you cannot, it is an indication that you really have no desire to. That dividing line is in place--just as it is written, to "divide the light from the darkness."

And with that, it is obvious you have heard enough.

Except - you haven't shown any confusion about any of those things. Honest discourse calls for you to at least show evidence of confusion - assuming honesty is a Christian moral....
All you managed to do was pretend I was someone who demanded proof of your god - which is decidedly not true. An honest person would have simply asked the question - 'Are you one of those nasty Atheists that demands proof of my god?' Because if you had the integrity to do that, you would have learned what I had to tell after the fact of your gross assumption - that many Atheist/Secular Humanists are only asking for reasonable evidence. And so far, the best you can do is parrot this lame apologetic about the 'Woo' your religion came up with about hidden and limited 'evidence' that no doubt requires one to 'open their heart to the Holy Moly' in order to understand. Isn't that convenient?

In my 5+ decades of engaging Christians, I have seen the evolution of apologetics. It used to be "You're just not reading it right! If you did, you would learn the Truth!" Then the excuse became "You have to study the bible in its context!" But after showing that the correct context didn't magically make the ridiculous sensible, the excuse became.... "You'll never understand what we do because..... um..... Satan has darkened your evil, black heart!!"

And hey - credit where credit is due - that's an AWESOME excuse! Because it allows the Christian an escape from all the questions even their Pastors, Priests, and Ministers have no rational answer to - and demonize those of us making you so uncomfortable. It's almost as if your faith is so fragile that you have to either shout down any unbelievers - or run away.

Another part of the evolution of apologetics is the trend of progressive Christians to quietly cast aside any number of stories and claims because they simply could no longer look anyone in the eye and claim that Jonah living in a whale was anything more than metaphor - or justify their gods command to slaughter homosexuals, disobedient children, or women holding their babies.... while allowing its soldiers to keep all the virgins effectively as sex slaves. I see more Christians every day who no longer believe that the virgin birth, talking snakes and donkeys, the sun standing still, and many other claims - are literal. And of course they now have to deal with the 'real' Christians that chastise them as Heretics. And as much fun is it might be for me to see Christians spitting on each other - there's also a profound sadness that attends.

 

[Strider324]

The science of psychology is ever morphing - as are many sciences

i answered you but you chose not to enlarge your understanding

SEE if you can understand this FACTUAL Event

A customer of mine called me and said a tree crashed down in his yard.
i get to his house and we proceed to the backyard, where a fallen tree lay on the ground
Now here is the FACTUAL account that you need to HEAR with your heart and mind

The man was cutting his grass with a loud gas lawnmower.
In addition to the noise of the lawnmower, he had Radio Earmuffs on listening to music to drown out the lawnmower noise.

The tree had not yet fallen WHILE he was cutting the grass - something intangible overwhelmed him with FEAR and urged him to RUN

IMMEDIATELY he left the mower and BOLTED to the house and the TREE CRASHED down on the mower where he was cutting grass.

Who told him to RUN
Who/What knew he was about to DIE or at the very least sustained life threatening injuries.
How can this occur if there is no Realm beyond the physical environment

(sigh) Your religion is ever morphing as well. Most bibles no longer claim that a verse in the OT about Nazarites means Jesus was from Nazareth. They no longer claim that the long ending of Mark is original - which means it is a spurious interpolation (another definition of a LIE). Many now have the integrity to admit that that 1 John 5:7-8 is a fraudulent interpolation not found in any manuscript before the 14th century, admitting that the Trinity is not scriptural and merely an idea the early church demanded to be added to scripture. But I digress.

Your story that you find so amazing is yet another tired example of the Divine Fallacy..... "I can't figure out how natural processes could have given him physical clues that the tree was about to fall - therefore - my god musta done it!" Yikes. Your limited intellect is not evidence for Divine Intervention. Are you aware that trees produce shadows, and that a noticeable unexpected movement of that shadow would provide at least a subliminal clue of pending disaster? But even worse for you, is that you have Zero explanation for why your god would randomly save this guy - while letting trees fall on thousands of other Christians over the years. Just as you have Zero explanation for why your god apparently made sure that Beulah in Bogalusa won that $50 on her scratcher ticket (thank you lord!!) while ignoring the desperate and terrified prayers of the hundreds of Christian children that die - just from cancer to keep the numbers manageable - every year. Brother, these gaping holes - and so, so many others - in Christian theology is precisely why you have to invent so many apologetics (apologies) for your god and your alleged Savior.

So on behalf of myself and many others - we would like to see your religion continue to morph. Perhaps a good start would be to stop the hypocrisy of demanding the 10 Commandments (where you arbitrarily pick of one the 2 existing sets) be placed in schools - as an insult to billions of Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, not to mention us retched Humanists - while ignoring the Beatitudes, which would actually serve to show your religion in a positive light. What do you think?

 

[David in NJ]

"I can't figure out how natural processes could have given him physical clues that the tree was about to fall - therefore - my god musta done it!" Yikes.

Well, instead of unscientific ranting, enter the conversation with your understanding of who/what placed FEAR in his heart to RUN