Basic Christian Living: Romans 6.

[Kokyu]

Romans 6:1-11
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be [a]done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been [b]freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise you also, [c]reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I've been discipling men for thirty years now and in that time have been also a Youth Pastor and preaching/teaching Elder. In all this work within the Church, I've had much opportunity to observe the things that most hinder the average believer in their walk with God. Near the very top of my list of things that "put the brakes on" spiritually for Christians is ignorance of the contents of Romans 6. When I say "ignorance" I don't mean that Christians haven't ever read the chapter (though, this may be the case), or have never heard a sermon on the chapter (though, this may also be the case), but that they have no understanding of how this chapter delivers to them some of the most vital and practical doctrines of their faith. Without this understanding they can't live in the truths of Romans 6 and when this is so, walking in the Spirit (Ga. 5:16, 25) and enjoying daily, truly life-changing fellowship is impossible.


The Way of Escape from All Sin.

Why do I say this? Why am I investing this chapter with such great importance to spiritual living? Because it offers, in detail, the "way of escape" of which Paul wrote in his letter to the believers at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 10:13
13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Why do I think the "way of escape" mentioned in this verse is described in Romans 6? Because Romans 6 deals with the problem of sin and what the Christian person is to do about it. There isn't any other chapter in all of the New Testament that handles this subject with the same level of explanation and practicality. It's vital, then, that every Christian should know and understand thoroughly what Romans 6 teaches; for there is nothing in the life of any Christian that interferes more with their positive experience of God than sin.

Psalm 66:18
18 If I regard iniquity in my heart,
The Lord will not hear.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you,
So that He will not hear.

1 Peter 3:12
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,
And His ears are open to their prayers;
But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”


Addressing a False Accusation.

Paul begins his remarks in chapter 6 of his letter to the Romans with a rhetorical question:

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Why would Paul be saying this to the Christian brethren at Rome? Well, he's actually addressing an accusation that had been made against him that he was teaching that Christians should "do evil that good may come."

Romans 3:8
8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their [a]condemnation is just.

This verse appears in the middle of things Paul is saying concerning how a person is made righteousness before God. Only a few verses prior to this one, Paul had written:

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose [g]praise is not from men but from God.

Here, Paul is setting out the doctrine of righteousness by faith rather than by OT law-keeping and declaring that the external, fleshly circumcision by which Jews proudly identified themselves as such was set aside for "circumcision of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter (of the law)" (Ro. 3:20; Ga. 2:16). Under the New Covenant established in and through Jesus (He. 7-10:22), a person was justified solely by faith in Jesus, not by "the works of the flesh," which is to say by keeping religious rules. Christians are saved by grace, they are given grace, and they walk with God in a "state of grace" so that Paul could write,

Romans 5:1-2
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:17
17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:20
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

 

[Kokyu]

Anticipating the objections of those who had "slanderously reported" that Paul was teaching a sort of "free grace" doctrine where sin could be indulged because "grace did much more abound," Paul begins Romans 6 with the rhetorical question that he did.

Romans 6:1-2
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?


Grace Need Not Abound: The Born-Again Believer is Dead to Sin.

Because sin halts our fellowship with God, no believer who wants fellowship with God can live in sin. But Paul introduces here another reason why the Christian ought not live in sin: They've died to it. What does Paul mean? He continued, explaining:

Romans 6:3-7
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

The born-again person has been spiritually united with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. Among other things, this means that the "old man" - the person we were before we were saved, rebellious, fleshly, temporally-minded - has been separated from the believer such that the "body of sin" might be "done away with" so that we need no longer be slaves of sin. Apart from God and in constant rebellion to Him, the unsaved person cannot help but direct their body into sinful living. This is described in Ephesians 2:1-3, Titus 3:3 and Colossians 1:21. None of us were made to be our own boss, to be self-directed, and when we are, we inevitably act in the carnal way Paul described in Romans 8:5-8:

Romans 8:5-8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

"Living according to the flesh" is the only way we can live if we are not spiritually-minded. But those who are so, who are fleshly-minded, who are carnal, not only cannot please God but are at enmity with Him. This is an incorrigible condition that can't be rehabilitated. We are so sin-prone, so naturally at odds with God, that if our "old, fleshly-minded Self" is not separated from us by God, we have no hope of coming out from under its control. And so, God acts for us to "put to death" the "old Self (man)," linking us to Christ's death on the cross and thus crucifying our "old Self," and in so doing rendering it powerless.

Does this mean our old Self is eradicated, totally annihilated, never again to plague us? The answer will follow in an upcoming post.

 

[MatthewG]

bump

 

[Kokyu]

Romans 6:3-11
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God's answer to our Sin Problem was death to the old Self and "resurrection" into new spiritual life in Jesus Christ. As Paul wrote in Romans 8, the carnal or fleshly-minded person we are before being saved "is not subject to God's law, nor can it be" and is "at enmity with God" and unable to please God. (Ro. 8:7-8). In short, "in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing," (Ro. 7:18) and this is so much the case, the old Self is so resistant to improvement, that the only thing God could do with it is crucify it with Christ "that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin" (vs. 6)


"Free from Sin" Does Not Mean "Sinless Perfection."

The result of the old Self being crucified with Christ is freedom from the power of sin. "For he who has died has been freed from sin" (vs. 7). Does this mean that the Christian person lives forever after their co-crucifixion with Christ in sinless perfection, the impulse to sin completely eradicated? No, the apostle John rules out this conclusion very clearly in his first letter:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

In his various letters to the early Gentile churches, the apostle Paul also frequently confronted sin in the lives of fellow born-again believers, demonstrating that, although they were saved, they were far from sinless:

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal.

1 Corinthians 5:1-2
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!
2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.

Galatians 3:1-4
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Titus 1:10-11
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.

Paul wrote of the terrible inner battle between his own old, fleshly Self and his new Christ-nature:

Romans 7:14-24
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Clearly, born-again children of God, though they've been crucified with Christ, still struggle with sin. But why? What does it mean to be "freed from sin" and yet still to struggle with it? How is this freedom? Well, there are two main lines of thinking about why the Christian person still sins:

1.) The Two Natures view.
2.) The Force of Old Habit view.

 

[Kokyu]

The Two Natures View.

This view holds that within every born-again, freed-from-sin person there are two natures in constant battle with one another. Paul seems to describe this state-of-affairs in the passage from Romans 7 above and also in his letter to the Galatian believers:

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh wars against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Paul described the two opposing "natures" - the flesh and the Spirit - within the believer in terms of warring "laws":

Romans 7:19-20
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

There is no place in the New Testament where the phrase "sin nature" is actually ever written, or explicitly taught as a feature of the Christian's born-again status. It's an inferred idea that, scripturally-speaking, could just as readily be considered in the terms Paul used in the passage above. In fact, in Romans 7 where Paul wrote at length about the battle between sinful impulse and obedience to God he wrote,

Romans 7:5
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

Romans 7:8-9
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire [coveting]...

And in the next chapter, where Paul continues to describe the two opposing inner states of a person, he doesn't speak in terms of natures but of types of thinking or orientations of mind:

Romans 8:5-8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul, though, also described the born-again believer as follows:

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Here, Paul seems to indicate that something more than a mere alteration, or shift, of thinking has occurred. The born-again man has become a "new creature," he has undergone an inner metamorphosis that has "quickened" him, or made he who was formerly "dead in trespasses and sins," alive spiritually in Christ (Eph. 2:1-6). Something fundamental and profound has been done to the born-again believer by the Holy Spirit; the believer hasn't just reoriented his, or her, mind in a new, God-ward direction.

This is suggested, too, by the idea of being "born-again" by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3-7). Though a change of mind about the Gospel, about Christ and one's need of salvation by him (i.e. repentance), precedes the "second birth," what the Spirit does in response to that change of mind is on the order of a physical birth, bringing forth in the "second birth" a whole new life that is anchored in himself.

But, though a born-again person is "made new" in Christ, under the Two Natures View the old Self is not annihilated in the process but only separated from the "new creature in Christ" (2 Co. 5:17) and held powerless on the cross of Christ. From this place of crucifixion, the old Self "calls" to the believer, enticing the believer to leave off submission to God and pursue their own course in some way. The old Self has no power to compel the one who has been crucified with Christ, however, as it did prior to their new, second birth (Jn. 3:3-7). In this respect, the child of God is freed from the power of the old Self; they never again have to sin but may always turn a deaf ear to the urgings of the old Self, walking by faith according to who they are in Christ, instead. But, if the "new creature in Christ" heeds the call of the old Self, they will come again under its power - though at any time they can, by repentance (Ja. 4:6-10), confession (1 Jn. 1:9) and submission (Ja. 4:7; 1 Pe. 5:6; Ro. 6:13-22; Ro. 12:1), return to the Spirit-controlled-and-led life which is the normal Christian life.


What Being "Fleshly" Means.

It's worth noting here, I think, that when Paul writes of "the flesh," he doesn't mean the physical tissues of one's body, which have no moral character. Get knocked unconscious and your body will just lie in a heap, inert, until your consciousness revives and begins to animate your body once again. While unconscious, your body doesn't bound up and commit adultery, or rob a bank, or curse out the neighbors. These sorts of behaviours only occur when you, that is, your consciousness, your soul, directs your body to enact these behaviors. This is why Paul wrote in Romans 6:6 that the "body of sin" was "destroyed" (figuratively, of course) when the old Self (that's you apart from God) - not a person's physical body - was crucified with Christ.

It's not the devil, or the World, or the natural impulses of your physical body (thirst, hunger, need for rest, sexual desire, etc.) that drive you into sin, it's you out from under God's control that is The Problem. This person is weak, and selfish, and easily obsessed with the body, over-indulging its natural, God-given impulses. And so, when the old Self is in control, eating becomes gluttony (or vanity-driven anorexia), drinking becomes alcoholism, the sexual urge becomes a porn-addiction, promiscuity and perversion, resting becomes laziness, and so on.

Paul actually describes this God-separate person pretty comprehensively:

Philippians 3:18-19
18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Titus 3:3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

Out of fellowship with God, out from under His constant control and bound under the power of the old Self, we become grotesque, nasty "pieces of work," in various ways enslaved by our unbridled self-interest. When this is the case, we are "fleshly minded," we are carnal, we are living according to the old, Adamic nature. Essentially, we are in control of ourselves rather than God, directing our fleshly powers (mind, will and body) according to what we think and desire. When we are acting in this way, we are "fleshly." This is what Paul means by this description, not that our bodies are intrinsically evil and lead us into sin, which is, actually a Gnostic idea, not a biblical one.

Continued in post #13.

 

[Behold]

It's not the devil, or the World, or the natural impulses of your physical body (thirst, hunger, need for rest, sexual desire, etc.) that drive you into sin, it's you out from under God's control that is The Problem.

Actually @Kokyu .... the "flesh" is the problem, and if you dont deal with it as Paul explains, then you'll walk in it.

So, the way you deal with the flesh, as Paul describes as your "old man of sin"......is to understand that : "old things have passed away, and behold all things have become NEW".

So, what is it that which is "passed away", regarding the born again Christian?
Its the "old man of sin" who is "crucified with Christ".....and Paul says the born again is to = "reckon Him dead".

How do you do that ??, is the key.

A.) You have to do this reader........you have to learn what this is, and do it., daily.

You have to "walk in the Light as Jesus walks in it".
And why can you do that, if you are born again, and not just water baptized, religious, and lost, falsely believeing you are a Christian...

Its because " """""As JESUS IS.......so are the born again......in THIS World""".

So, to walk in the LIGHT, as Jesus does, is to become and remain En-LIGHTEND, by the knowledge of God.....and to exist there, which is to put on your Helmet of Salvation, everyday, as Paul explaines.
So, What is that, exactly?
Its to understand that God's perspective of the Born again, is that you are eternally made righteous, having become "the righteousness of God in Christ", and that is your Eternal Status that can never change..
The Christian has to get that revelation, and hold unto it., as that is how you walk in the Light.

So, what does that mean?
It means that you are a born again Spirit, which is the Son/Daughter of God..... trapped inside a body and right nearby is the old man of sin that has been separated from your born again Spirit by the "circumcision that is not caused by Hands". Paul teaches in Colossians 2.
So, this means that God has performed a spiritual and eternal surgery within you, where your body is on earth, and your mind is not born again, while your REAL Self, the CHRISTian "new creation"... is in the Kingdom of God, having been translated from "darkness to LIGHT".

So, that is a lot for you to unpack Reader......and so, i'll leave it there for now.....

 

[Kokyu]

Actually @Kokyu .... the "flesh" is the problem, and if you dont deal with it as Paul explains, then you'll walk in it.

Well, simply contradicting what I've explained doesn't dissolve the truth of that explanation. And it doesn't establish your view, either. Instead, try making a case for why I'm in error and your view isn't.

So, the way you deal with the flesh, as Paul describes as your "old man of sin"......is to understand that : "old things have passed away, and behold all things have become NEW".

I hope you understand that I'm not by any means done with going through the chapter. There's still much of what Paul wrote yet to explain.

So, what is it that which is "passed away", regarding the born again Christian?
Its the "old man of sin" who is "crucified with Christ".....and Paul says the born again is to = "reckon Him dead".

I don't see how this differs from what I wrote...

How do you do that ??, is the key.

A.) You have to do this reader........you have to learn what this is, and do it., daily.

You have to "walk in the Light as Jesus walks in it".

No, "walking in the light" is the effect of something else, something more spiritually basic, that Paul instructs his readers to do in Romans 6. I'll be getting to these more basic things in due time.

To urge believers to achieve the effect of "walking in the light" by means of the effect itself is a circular, impossible and frustrating thing to urge upon them. I've discipled many believers who've tried this approach to Christian living - woefully unsuccessfully - to live in the more fundamental truths and commands of God's word. And when they do, their spiritual lives take off like a rocket!

And why can you do that, if you are born again, and not just water baptized, religious, and lost, falsely believeing you are a Christian...

Its because " """""As JESUS IS.......so are the born again......in THIS World""".

Do you know what this means, biblically? What is it, exactly, to be as Jesus is in the world? If you don't understand this idea, it will lead to a terrible spiritual experience.

So, to walk in the LIGHT, as Jesus does, is to become and remain En-LIGHTEND, by the knowledge of God.....and to exist there, which is to put on your Helmet of Salvation, everyday, as Paul explaines.

You know, I hope, that the "spiritual armor" of Ephesians 6 is a Person? Salvation, truth, faith, the heart of the Gospel, perfect righteousness, and the Word of God are all of, and from, him. See John 1:1-4; 14:6; Ac. 4:12; 1 John 5:11-13; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Galatians 5:22-23.

So, What is that, exactly?
Its to understand that God's perspective of the Born again, is that you are eternally made righteous, having become "the righteousness of God in Christ", and that is your Eternal Status that can never change..
The Christian has to get that revelation, and hold unto it., as that is how you walk in the Light.

No, there's a lot more to "walking in the Light" than this. Faith is important, yes, but there are several other non-negotiables of Christian living, too: knowledge, trust, love, submission, holiness, fellowship, God's glorification. Do you know how these all intersect with each other? If not, you've yet to come into the sort of experience of God that He made you to enjoy.

Anyway, the last bit of your statement above gives me cause for concern because it is so self-dependent. The Christian has to get, and hold onto, the revelation you mentioned. But God's word says we are all of us profoundly weak (Ro. 5:6); in fact, we can do nothing apart from Christ (Jn. 15:5). We don't have it in us to be who God wants us to be and to do what He wants us to do. And so, God says to His children that they work out in their lives only what He has first worked into them (Phil. 2:12-13). There's no getting and holding onto, then, except God has first made doing so possible. But He does this only under certain conditions. Do you know what those conditions are?

So, what does that mean?
It means that you are a born again Spirit, which is the Son/Daughter of God..... trapped inside a body and right nearby is the old man of sin that has been separated from your born again Spirit by the "circumcision that is not caused by Hands". Paul teaches in Colossians 2.
So, this means that God has performed a spiritual and eternal surgery within you, where your body is on earth, and your mind is not born again, while your REAL Self, the CHRISTian "new creation"... is in the Kingdom of God, having been translated from "darkness to LIGHT".

So, that is a lot for you to unpack Reader......and so, i'll leave it there for now.....

I'm not sure why you're adding these ideas you've got to a thread that I'm writing about Romans 6. Why not start your own thread and put all your ideas down in it? As far as I can see, your post here distracts entirely from what I'm trying to do. If you've got questions about what I wrote, if you want clarification, or have a different view of Romans 6 you'd like to hash out with me, then please do. But simply ignoring my posts with a dismissive contradiction and then offering your own scattered ideas about Christian living is pretty disrespectful to the purpose of this thread, as well as being quite unhelpful to fellow readers who are trying to get a handle on Romans 6.

 

[Behold]

Well, simply contradicting what I've explained doesn't dissolve the truth of that explanation.

I didnt contradict you.
I simply used your false pretext, to thereby teach about the Flesh, and what to do with it, according to how Paul explains it.
You are not familar with any of this, and in fact you are probably a person who believes you can lose your salvation.
So, if you are that one, then you dont even understand The Cross of Christ, and yet you are pretending to "teach Paul".

I hope you understand that I'm not by any means done with going through the chapter. There's still much of what Paul wrote yet to explain.

You trying to explain Paul, is not going to work out well for Paul, or for any member who listens.

No, "walking in the light" is the effect of something else, something more spiritually basic,

You can't even explain what you are trying to say, in your own post.
You are one of those...>>"im trying to sound spiritual, so that people will (hopefully) believe i am".
Listen, Episkapos is the King of that Realm here on the Forum, and you'll never catch Him, but you can try.

So, you picked Paul, and yet you are not fit for the job of dealing with his Theology.

To urge believers to achieve the effect of "walking in the light" by means of the effect itself is a circular,

I didnt post anything like your miscomprehsison of my Post.

"walking in the light" is to have the mind of Christ.....as this.....>"as many as be perfect".......Paul teaches.
You dont understand this, but you'll keep pretending that you can teach Paul's Theology, as people like you, have this idea that posting verses, that you dont understand, tries to prove that you can teach.

Do you know what this means, biblically? What is it, exactly, to be as Jesus is in the world? If you don't understand this idea, it will lead to a terrible spiritual experience.

You dont know what you are talking about.

No, there's a lot more to "walking in the Light" than this.

Actually there isn't more to it....there is just Paul's explanation that i posted..... and you trying to make something up to try to sell yourself as a person who can teach Paul's Theollogy, isn't going to work out for you in the end.
But a few kiddies who are more confused then you, will probably give you some likes, and maybe a Mod will even try to protect you.
That happens a lot here regarding people who try to pretend they are a "deep bible student".

Anyway, the last bit of your statement above gives me cause for concern because it is so self-dependent. The Christian has to get, and hold onto, the revelation you mentioned.

You dont have this revelation yet, which is why i posted it on your Thread.... so you should take a pause and concern yourself with why you are pretending you can teach Paul's Theology, when you can't.
But you'll fake it, as you need the attention.

I'm not sure why you're adding these ideas you've got to a thread that I'm writing about Romans 6. Why not start your own thread and put all your ideas down in it?

Ill teach on mine and on yours, so that you are not able to confuse people, as you are confused.

See you there. @Kokyu.

 

[Behold]

1.) Paul teaches doctrine ...= regarding the : "body of sin".

So what is that?

That is your """old man of sin::".....its your : "flesh". Its your "unholy sensual and carnal desires".

Paul teaches that this "body of Sin" is destroyed if you are born again...., = which ""frees you from serving sin"

How does that work?

2.) Paul teaches that : "(He-She) that are DEAD, is freed from Sin".

Now, are you breathing and reading my Thread? ??????????
Then you are most certainly alive......so, what part of you is "DEAD", if you are born again, and not just water baptized and religious and lost ???

A.) This part.. = ""our old man of sin, is crucifed with Christ"".....therefore : '"reckon Him DEAD""........Paul teaches.

"but behold..... i have sinful thoughts, and desires".....
And yes......that is : "sin consciousness".

So, how do you get rid of it, how do you put that down and keep it underfoot..... so that you are FREE from the residual effect of being a former lifetime sin loving sinner, who is now an Eternal Saint = "of the Household of God".

AA.) ""You work out your Salvation.""

 

[Behold]

How do you do that? How do you "work out your Salvation".

You have to perfectly learn that you are become a "new Creation in Christ".....as "the righteousnes of God.... in Christ".
See that?
That is not ""the old man of sin"".....is it? That is "old things have passed away (dead)... and all things are become NEW"".

3.) So, Paul says..."""how can we serve sin (how can we want to pursue carnality), if we are DEAD to sin"""?

AAA.) Its because you have not '""worked out your Salvation."""

How do you work it out?.... How do you work out the Eternal Salvation, that is "the Gift of Salvation" = now that you posess it forever if you are born again???????

Reader,
Didn't you have to learn how to drive your first Car?
So, also, you have to learn how to exist in GAINED revelation knowledge, as : "working out your Salvation".

AAAA.) By gaining the knowledge of who you have eternally become "in Christ"... = that is God's perspective of you.

Reader, "what is the mind of Christ"?

AAAAA) Its God's perspective, and you have to get it as YOUR Real Faith and Theology, and keep it.

Where is this found?

= Paul's Doctrine.

 

[Kokyu]

I didnt contradict you.
I simply used your false pretext, to thereby teach about the Flesh, and what to do with it, according to how Paul explains it.
You are not familar with any of this, and in fact you are probably a person who believes you can lose your salvation.
So, if you are that one, then you dont even understand The Cross of Christ, and yet you are pretending to "teach Paul".

Again, please just start your own thread where you can detail all that is wrong with everyone else's view and what is right about your own. It's very easy to do. This thread, though - if you don't mind - is about Romans 6 and what it means. I'd really appreciate it if you'd confine what you've got to say the chapter and my comments about it or your own thoughts on what Paul wrote in the chapter.

When you start a statement with "Actually..." it commonly signals that a correction is to follow. In the case of your statement in your last post to me, the correction appears to be that I don't understand what Paul meant by "fleshliness" and that, as a result, I don't know how not to walk in the flesh:

Actually @Kokyu .... the "flesh" is the problem, and if you dont deal with it as Paul explains, then you'll walk in it.

So, the way you deal with the flesh, as Paul describes as your "old man of sin"......is to understand that : "old things have passed away, and behold all things have become NEW".

See? What you wrote here ignored reams of other statements I made concerning Romans 6 and offered an alternative to what Paul meant by "the flesh" without any real argument against what I'd written, or for yours. You just contradicted and then asserted. But these things don't, by themselves, show your views to be correct or mine false.

Anyway, you do the same bald contradicting and asserting in the quotation above from your last post. You just assert, "You are not familiar with any of this..." though I've written four full posts on Romans 6 so far in this thread. And then you make a further assertion that I'm probably one of those who believe they can lose their salvation. No proof offered in support of this assertion, just a bald, unfounded declaration.

You trying to explain Paul, is not going to work out well for Paul, or for any member who listens.

Well, you're baldly asserting this, but you haven't actually shown it to be so. Really, it seems you just want to start an argument.

You can't even explain what you are trying to say, in your own post.
You are one of those...>>"im trying to sound spiritual, so that people will (hopefully) believe i am".
Listen, Episkapos is the King of that Realm here on the Forum, and you'll never catch Him, but you can try.

So, you picked Paul, and yet you are not fit for the job of dealing with his Theology.

It's not that I can't explain my views - the four posts I've already made on this thread show that I can - but that you don't seem to understand my explanations. It's... interesting that you put the blame on me, though, for your inability to comprehend what I've written. My language is not particularly difficult to understand, though...

Anyway, I'm not "trying to sound spiritual," I'm just writing as I always do about spiritual matters. If you don't like my writing style, you don't have to read what I've written, right? Just ignore my thread if you find my explanations so opaque and mistaken.

I didnt post anything like your miscomprehsison of my Post.

"walking in the light" is to have the mind of Christ

Well, don't just assert this, show that it's actually the case from Scripture. Prove your assertion.

You dont understand this, but you'll keep pretending that you can teach Paul's Theology, as people like you, have this idea that posting verses, that you dont understand, tries to prove that you can teach.

You're either very bored or your trolling. Whichever it is, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop gumming up my thread with your defensive and bitter posts. Thanks.

You dont know what you are talking about.

Again, just asserting this over and over doesn't do anything to show that you're right.

Ill teach on mine and on yours, so that you are not able to confuse people, as you are confused.

See you there. @Kokyu.

So you're just trolling, then; picking fights under the guise of being the Truth police.

In any case, no, you won't see me on one of your threads. What incentive have you given for me to do so? None.

 

[Behold]

Again, please just start your own thread where you can detail all that is wrong with everyone else's view

Its not my position to "detail all the wrong with everyone's view'.

What i do, is just read what someone posts, and respond.

Its what im doing here.

This is a public forum, and that's the idea.......we read, we post, we repeat.

I feel that you can comprehend this.......

and what is right about your own.

What is "right about what i teach " All of it.
See, long before you showed up, i was on this forum for a long time only teaching "Pauline Theology".
That is mostly what i do here...

You can "google or wiki" that term, and discover what it is, and then come back here, and pretend you knew.
People like you always do this, when i tell them to searth that topic.
You'll see.

When you start a statement with "Actually..." it commonly signals that a correction is to follow.

What follows, per my Posts and Threads.... regarding what i do, is a teaching.

See? What you wrote here ignored reams of other statements I made concerning Romans 6

What you make up next regaring Romans 6 or 7 or any of it, is invalid, and i explained to you why..

And you believe you can lose your salvation?
Is that True @Kokyu ?

Anyway, you do the same bald contradicting and asserting in the quotation above from your last post. You just assert, "You are not familiar with any of this..." though I've written four full posts on Romans 6

You can write 44 more "" full posts""", and its not going to prove anything except that you need people to see you keep posting.
Same as before.
Same as next time.

It's not that I can't explain my views

If you can explain your views, Then why can't you do it so far on this Thread?
You remind me of the member who decided to send some false innuendo against me today here..,... earlier... so i asked them to "Explain The Cross of Christ". Then i told them......"but you can't".
They responded..>>"well, since you think you know what i beleive......I'll let you explain it".

Their response made me smile.....it really did.

Do you understand why?

Anyway, I'm not "trying to sound spiritual," I'm just writing as I always do about spiritual matters.

I agree that you are writing about a topic, but the issue is, you dont know the subject, intimately, which your posts will keep on proving.

You're either very bored or your trolling.

I never Troll.
One of the things i do on this Forum.. (so that you know)... is highlight people who are pretenders, as proven by their Threads and Posts..., and i show them why for the benefit of the Mods, and the Members.

So, again.........do you believe you can lose your Salvation?

Its a simple question @Kokyu

And if you are not afraid to answer it, and do, then we can discuss your answer, and then i have another question for you.
You'll enjoy it as well.

 

[Kokyu]

The Force of Old Habit View.

Instead of the vaguely schizophrenic idea of two warring natures within the born-again person, some have adopted the view that the "sin-nature" is just well-established habit, a deeply-set pattern of sinfully self-centered desires, attitudes, thoughts and actions. God has made us all to "harden" into patterns of various sorts, either for good or ill. We might, for example, develop the habit of exercise or, we might take up the habit of daily Bible study, or we might form the practice of constant prayerfulness, or we might fall into a pattern of weekly fasting (or all of these together). Then again, we might take up the habit of anxious, angry, lustful, or despairing thinking, and/or we might form a pattern of over-eating, and/or an attitude of bitterness and suspicion, and/or of watching t.v. all weekend. As we fossilize into our patterns, they can develop such momentum that we find it very difficult or impossible to resist the force of the pattern. If our patterns are good ones, fundamentally oriented around loving and serving God and others, this isn't really a problem, but if our patterns are oriented around ourselves, around loving and serving ourselves before and above God and others, those patterns can present very acute challenges to the disciple of Christ (especially if they come to faith in him as an adult).

By "fossilize into a pattern" I mean we traverse the path of a thought, attitude or action over and over again, wearing into ourselves a sort of "trench" of thinking and behavior that grows deeper and deeper over time. Eventually, the "trench" is sufficiently deep to obscure from our view and consideration any other "ground" of thinking and conduct that we might travel. It may even happen that, after a certain point, it never even occurs to us that there is any other way to go than in the line of the habit-trench we've made. This is, I believe, what the Bible means by "hardened" into a kind of thinking and behavior.

Just to be clear: God does not oppose our attending to the basic, necessary needs of our bodies and souls that He has instituted in us. This fundamental self-interest is prefectly proper - and vital to our survival. We need to eat, sleep, protect ourselves from danger, and work, we ought to procreate, raise families, relate with others of our kind on a societal level, and so on. Not all of these needs are absolutely crucial to our existence, of course (though, some are), but they are all God-instituted/designed and ought not, therefore, to be persistently neglected. When, however, we are not under God's direct regulation, when His Spirit is not directing us and ordering our thinking, desires and actions, our attendance to our natural, God-given needs always becomes grossly distorted and destructive - in other words, sinful - in one way or another.

Thanks to Adam, it's into this unregulated state, this condition where we are not under God's control, that we are all born and the longer we live in this state, the more and deeper the godless patterns of living we establish and into which we "harden." Consequently, when an adult comes to trust in Christ as their Savior and to submit to him as their Lord (Ro. 10:9-10), their God-unregulated habits of living, their patterns of distorted self-interest, clash fiercely with their new "nature," their new spiritual life, given to them by the indwelling Holy Spirit (Tit. 3:5-7; Ro. 8:9-14; 1 Jn. 4:13) that delights in the "law of God according to the inward man" (Ro. 7:22).

Under the Force of Old Habit View, the Christian is not, then, plagued by two opposing natures so much as they are caught between the force of well-established habits of selfish, God-independent, often body-obsessed, thought and action and a new selfless, Christ-centered, Spirit-ordered way of being that seeks to form corresponding patterns of thinking and conduct. The believer isn't like a dog into which has been inserted the nature of a cat, its natural impulse to chase after a tennis ball, or dig a hole in the flower-bed wrestling constantly with an equally strong impulse to lounge disdainfully upon a tree branch high above the ground, or stuff itself into a paper bag. According to the Force of Old Habit View, the battle to be "dead to sin but alive unto God" isn't the result of having become a kind of dog-cat, or, to put it as Christians sometimes do, a sinner-saint, but with old and new patterns of thinking and being.

Which way is correct? I find myself at this point in my life, adopting something of a synthesis of both views. The Two Natures View offers a spiritual accounting of what Galatians 5:17 describes and the Force of Old Habit view provides a psychological explanation for the war between the flesh and the Spirit. Both views have been of great help to me in discipling men over the last thirty years and explaining to them the "why?" of the inner battle they face as they learn to live as a "new creature in Christ."

Continued in post #16 (two posts down).

 

[Behold]

The Force of Old Habit View.

Instead of the vaguely schizophrenic idea of two warring natures within the born-again person, some have adopted the view that the "sin-nature" is just well-established habit,

So, your "cut and paste" Theology is up and running, again.

I wonder whose it is..... @Kokyu ??
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, Reader...

Lets look at that sin nature, that is nature inside every human being, that is the "adamic nature" or the "fallen nature".

We start with understanding that the fall of Adam is the fall of us all, as he brought in "by one man's sin".. we are all become a sinner.

Thats why,.
And God gave Moses Law and 10 Commandments to show you what you are, vs His Holiness.
See, the Law and Commandments, are a HOLY mirror that reflect your sin nature contrasted against God's Holiness.......with the end result being, that now that you see yourself as that sinner......you will turn to Christ for forgiveness and become "the righteousness of God in Christ".

= a CHIRSTian.

Now what is that "sin nature"?

Its very simple reader...........its this.......as Jesus teaches.....>"YOU are of YOUR FATHER....the DEVIL".....and the LUSTS OF YOUR FATHER... you shall do"".

Now, see the "Lusts of your Father"?.... That is the "sin nature"..........as SIN...is the literal nature of the Devil.

So, What does that mean for us... in the Spiritual Sense?......... Well Jesus explains it as ......"You are of YOUR FATHER".....

See that?
That is speaking to every UNBELIEVER , never born again...........because their Faither is the Devil, and that is why all of us, before we became Christians......lived in sin.. and wanted more. We were spirutal children of the Devil...performing His LUSTS.......that are SIN.
We were OF that Nature, before we were born again....out of it.

So, this is where you received your desire to live in sin......It came from your previous Spiritual Father....whose Nature was yours.

Now, how do you end that sin nature that is the fallen nature, that is the ADAMIC Nature, and become "In Christ".. "One with God"?

Jesus shows you.....when He told you that = "you must be born again".

And what happens when you are born again??
You become the eternal Child of a = NEW Spiritual FATHER... = your Heavenly Father......which eternally ends your previous spiritual union with the Devil.

So, this is why you "Must be born again".......or you will die a child of the Devil, and go to the place that is ""prepared for the Devil and His Angels"".

The Apostle Peter teaches us.... that once we are born again, we have received the "Divine Nature".....and that is to beome a "new Creation, in Christ".. as '""one with God"......where "old things (your sin and your sin nature) are passed away and all things have become NEW".

 

[Behold]

@Kokyu ..

The Mods and Members who are reading your Thread are still waiting for you to answer my Question that ive now asked you at least 3x.

Here it is again for you....

@Kokyu .... Do you believe you can lose your Salvation?