Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy? - since the prophecies were acquired rather than intended

[MatthewG]

Oh, I can’t, can I? Here, hold my beer and watch this!

Nope. Not without the Spirit. The Spirit is needed in conjunction with the Bible itself.

 

[St. SteVen]

@St. SteVen:
Not quoting scripture. ECHOING scripture. This literary technique uses similar phrasing to evoke mental cross-references with familiar passages of scripture.

Credit Richard Hays’ Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul for pointing this out. I will also note that Dr. Hays’ mom was a friend of mine; our Bible study group often met in her apartment. I miss her. She was a dear.

Good post, thanks.
But can we really claim fulfilled prophecy from ECHOING scripture?
Fulfilled prophecy infers that the OT prophetic passage was intentional, not just acquired by a NT writer.

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[Lambano]

Nope. Not without the Spirit. The Spirit is needed in conjunction with the Bible itself.

Not buying it. Associative techniques work with any genre of literature.

 

[Lambano]

Good post, thanks.
But can we really claim fulfilled prophecy from ECHOING scripture?
Fulfilled prophecy infers that the OT prophetic passage was intentional, not just acquired by a NT writer.

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We can claim anything we want. Here, hold my beer and watch this!

 

[MatthewG]

Not buying it. Associative techniques work with any genre of literature.

No message is found, when it's not by the Spirit though.

So you say you can just use the bible, without the Spirit basically.

Sure you can, but it's not worth much.

Some people just believe you flip the book pick a verse and that is all you need sometimes... idk about that either, I wouldn't buy that.

I don't buy what preachers pass around at the pulpit half the time...

I don't buy the threads message in what it states either...

I mean, if a person only believes some things about the bible, why not the whole?

The Spirit helps us make sense of things, which are shared, and allows connections between old testament and the apostolic record.

 

[Lambano]

Some will claim that “inspiration” implies dictation. Thus, any later inspired associations were intentional. Even if the interpreter pulled them out of his rectal cavity.

 

[Lambano]

So you say you can just use the bible, without the Spirit basically.

The Spirit does what the Spirit does; we do what we do.

I’ve seen too many people assume they can tell which is which.

 

[MatthewG]

The Spirit does what the Spirit does; we do what we do.

I’ve seen too many people assume they can tell which is which.

One thing is for sure, it goes where it wants, and no one can capture it.

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.

 

[Lambano]

Exactly.

 

[MatthewG]

Exactly.

And this too though,

John 16:13

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.

I dont believe in the whole casting out demons and stuff anymore though, I think the holy spirit kind of changed, into the Spirit of Christ we live by today.

Call it holy spirit 2.0, which causes, love, peace, mercy, etc... (Galatians 5.)

@Lambano

 

[St. SteVen]

Some will claim that “inspiration” implies dictation. Thus, any later inspired associations were intentional. Even if the interpreter pulled them out of his rectal cavity.

What I am saying is that...

The fulfillment of an OT prophecy should include:
- An OT scripture that says, In the future this will take place.
- A corresponding NT scripture that says, this took place to fulfill that OT scripture.

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[MatthewG]

What I am saying is that...

The fulfillment of an OT prophecy should include:
- An OT scripture that says, In the future this will take place.
- A corresponding NT scripture that says, this took place to fulfill that OT scripture.

[

I don't even like calling the New Testament the New Testament.

The term "New Testament" to describe the Christian scriptures was first used by the early Christian writer Tertullian in the late 2nd century. He used the term to distinguish these writings from the earlier scriptures, which Christians then called the "Old Testament". The term "New Testament" is a translation of the Latin Novum Testamentum.



It's really the Apostolic Record, of what was to come forth from the Old Testament prophecy... like Malachi, and the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Then you have the Apostlic Record, which Jesus says John the Baptist was Elijah to come. Which was spoken about in the Old Testament.

But I guess people don't know these things, if they don't actually read the bible in the first place instead just question it.

 

[St. SteVen]

This is a follow-up to the previous topic:

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)

I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus. But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant. Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended? Here are a couple. (we'll need to...

www.christianityboard.com

In the previous topic it was somewhat unanimously agreed that messianic prophecies were acquired instead of intended.
(unless I missed what the unanimous agreement was) ???

This obviously begs the question: Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy?

The typical apologetic is that the fulfillment of OT prophecy proves that Jesus was the anticipated Messiah.

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[Wick Stick]

What I am saying is that...

The fulfillment of an OT prophecy should include:
- An OT scripture that says, In the future this will take place.
- A corresponding NT scripture that says, this took place to fulfill that OT scripture.

[

I don't think that's how prophecy is supposed to work.

Prophets are meant to predict specific things that come to pass in the short-term, not vagaries that are hundreds of years in the future. That way, the prophet's contemporaries can SEE that he is a true prophet, OR... stone him to death if he isn't. Moses seems to frame it that way, at least.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
What I am saying is that...

The fulfillment of an OT prophecy should include:
- An OT scripture that says, In the future this will take place.
- A corresponding NT scripture that says, this took place to fulfill that OT scripture.

I don't think that's how prophecy is supposed to work.

Prophets are meant to predict specific things that come to pass in the short-term, not vagaries that are hundreds of years in the future. That way, the prophet's contemporaries can SEE that he is a true prophet, OR... stone him to death if he isn't. Moses seems to frame it that way, at least.

I agree.
That is somewhat my point.
The supposed "fulfilled" prophesies in the NT don't correspond to the OT "prophesies".
They were never meant to. That's why I say they were "acquired".

[

 

[Hiddenthings]

St. SteVen said:
What I am saying is that...

The fulfillment of an OT prophecy should include:
- An OT scripture that says, In the future this will take place.
- A corresponding NT scripture that says, this took place to fulfill that OT scripture.

I agree.
That is somewhat my point.
The supposed "fulfilled" prophesies in the NT don't correspond to the OT "prophesies".
They were never meant to.

[

The Scriptures are far more nuanced than that St...wisdom is hidden to begin with and only those who humbly seek Him will find Him.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I don't think that's how prophecy is supposed to work.

Prophets are meant to predict specific things that come to pass in the short-term, not vagaries that are hundreds of years in the future. That way, the prophet's contemporaries can SEE that he is a true prophet, OR... stone him to death if he isn't. Moses seems to frame it that way, at least.

The prophecy of the Prophet like unto Moses was meant for a time far in the future. As written in Deuteronomy 18:15, “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own brethren; to him you shall listen.” I can point to hundreds of other prophecies that foretell events that have not yet come to pass.