WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

JohnDB

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2010
5,367
3,565
113
TN
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Could you explain better what BORN FROM ABOVE means?
Difficult for me to understand why I have a problem with John 3:5
I know that J the B baprized for the forgiveness of sin.
HE said that one would come after him baptizing with fire and the Spirit.

John the Baptist Baptized for something different although said in a contracted form of "for the remission of sins".
John Baptized for a principle that has a name today often lost in the shuffle of the New Covenant, the Dark Ages, and a famine of God's Word until the printing press came about 500 years ago...

Priesthood of every Believer.
Meaning we today can bring our own sins to God for forgiveness without any intercession because Jesus is our intercessor with the Father.
ALSO
One other important fact lost on us today with the proliferation of scriptures. The ability to quote scriptures and tell even Gentiles what they mean. Before this ONLY Priests or Rabbi could do such things. You could only memorize them for yourself or your household IF you were the leader (or going to be) of a family. (Paper and ink were EXPENSIVE) Meaning yes, women needed to know scriptures too but they were not to recite them or explain them.
Which is WHY Jesus said "Of those born of women there is none greater than John"

Mishandling scriptures by those unauthorized was no different than Misusing God's name. (3rd Commandment....capital punishment) But with John giving the authorization to do both things (recite and handle scriptures, seek forgiveness of sins)through a Baptism that they referred to as "for the remission of sins " it truly was and is what we refer to today as the "Priesthood of Every Believer"

Now.....second part.

Born From Above designated Caste of Israelites.
The requirements were simple....but a very high bar to reach which is why Nicodemus was reeling and incredulous at Jesus's statement.

The list of names?
Moses, Isaac, Jacob and Esau, Sampson, Samuel, John TB and of course Jesus PLUS his followers including Nicodemus...there are more but I'm forgetting them.

To be Born from Above you FIRST had to be mentioned specifically by a prophet BEFORE you were born...most were mentioned before they were even conceived. (Making Esau more suspect than Jacob....but Jacob's pre-conception prophesy is not easy to find...and theres something of a debate over Esau)

SECONDLY you had to be a benefit to all of Israel by completing a task God created for you specifically to do. (You had little choice in the matter as Sampson discovered) which gives cause for a Gentile to be included named Cyrus. (Still upsetting for Jews today)

Those two requirements are rather simple and loose all at the same time. But impossible to live up to for people who felt rather ordinary. Who like David's 72 appointees did not feel special but were because the King, David, said so. But they were driven by their own passions as God intended and foretold. They all accomplished what God set them out to do.


So....
The "born of water" is a metaphoric reference to the Law. As Paul wrote he didn't know what sin was without the Law. How can you seek forgiveness for sins if you don't know what sin is? Which this humility and forgiveness is what allows the Holy Spirit.
 
  • Love
Reactions: GodsGrace

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,244
7,391
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
In regard to water baptism in John 3:22, by this time Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing..

I believe the water in John 3:5 pertains to living water and/or the word of God and that water baptism is the least likely explanation as I already explained in posts #35 and #174.
I appreciate this mailmandan.
I'm not here to debate this because I'm not sure what it means.
I've narrowed it down to baptism because both John the Baptist and Jesus baptized so it seems like an important event.
(I now that Jesus' baptizing came after he spoke to Nicodemus).

I also understand that it could be physical birth...this appeals to me too.
IOW,,,we must be born 2 times...
once physically
and once spiritually.

I like this idea very much and I find that both baptism and physical birth could make sense.
I still, after all these posts, do not understand how WATER could the the word of God in the sense that Jesus meant it.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,244
7,391
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I believe that God created Adam to choose to be united with Him in perfect obedience, but that it required a test before that could happen, as willingness was vital, as love cannot be forced. So He created him innocent, without sin, and so therefore he could communicate with God but was not in the position that God desired for him.

I don't like that term 'relationship with God' it seems to let us think that one can be in union and still sin. The OT shows us that God cannot live where there is sin. We are either in Christ or not in Christ, in the Spirit or in the flesh.

So the testing was necessary and we know that Adam failed and was therefore cast out. The unitedness failed.

I believe that we also are born as Adam was, and with the age of accountability (maybe age 4) are tested too. However, because Satan is in the mix, and because he gained access to us after Adam fell, we fall too.

Finding faith in God is the first step however to be united to God there is a further step. Agreement to be in Christ in the crucifixion in order to be part of the resurrection and into zoe life.
I don't want to dwell on Adam too much.
God did create him to be innocent, but then the fall.
THAT was the test you speak of, in my opinion.

As to the age of accountability, I do agree with you, but having taught kids our faith, I'd say that 4 is much too young.
The age could be different for different kids. Most kids believe they've never sinned at the age of about 9 or 10.
They have to LEARN that doing "bad" is a sin and that it hurts God. And it takes more than one lesson !

I use the term RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD because it seems to cut through some ideas.
I believe that it IS a relationship but we have to remember that it's GOD....and He is to be honored...
IOW, He's not our buddy but our God and creator.
 

Hepzibah

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2012
1,490
1,085
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I don't want to dwell on Adam too much.

Fair enough, though I think we have a lot to learn from him about the spiritual pathway back to the garden of Eden, entering through the fiery swords which the angel guards with, in order to be united with our Saviour and be given the position that Adam did not achieve.
God did create him to be innocent, but then the fall.
THAT was the test you speak of, in my opinion.

Indeed.
As to the age of accountability, I do agree with you, but having taught kids our faith, I'd say that 4 is much too young.

Psychologists have done an experiment with children around that age, and it was that point, where a child will sneak some sweets when left in a room alone after being told not to eat any. After 4 they will lie when asked.
The age could be different for different kids. Most kids believe they've never sinned at the age of about 9 or 10.
They have to LEARN that doing "bad" is a sin and that it hurts God. And it takes more than one lesson !

I use the term RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD because it seems to cut through some ideas.
I believe that it IS a relationship but we have to remember that it's GOD....and He is to be honored...
IOW, He's not our buddy but our God and creator.
Indeed.
 

Fred J

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2023
1,006
223
63
57
W.P.
Faith
Christian
Country
Malaysia
You touched on a theological idea that I like.
To GOD in the name of Jesus Christ be the Glory.

Am glad that helped you, am merely an unworthy servant helping and defending the All Scripture = Holy Bible. (2Timothy3:16&17)

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know why Jesus said it twice about 'born again' in verse 3 and 'born' in verse 5?
The trichotomy of man.

Man is made of 3 parts. Body, Soul, Spirit.
The body and soul comprise man in his natural state.
When we add the spirit, man becomes complete and is once again reconciled to Go.
1 Thessalonians 5:
23. And the very GOD of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray GOD your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


GOD will do it, says Paul, but there's a chance of corruption and believers backslide.

One, is the devil who lie and deceive, like Jesus use the word of GOD to 'debunk', 'resist the devil and he'll flee from you.

Two, the world and it's things, it's necessities and pleasures, bridal every members of the body in resist.

Three, the enemy within, the flesh and it's works or fruits are evident according to Paul in Galatians ch. 5.

And ironically the flesh wars against the Holy Ghost within you, and we're unable to the things that we would, according to verse 17.

Apparently, the fruits of the flesh comes in conflict with the fruits of the Spirit.

Have you had this experience of conflict?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ
 

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
5,577
5,990
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I appreciate this mailmandan.
I'm not here to debate this because I'm not sure what it means.
I've narrowed it down to baptism because both John the Baptist and Jesus baptized so it seems like an important event.
(I now that Jesus' baptizing came after he spoke to Nicodemus).

I also understand that it could be physical birth...this appeals to me too.
IOW,,,we must be born 2 times...
once physically
and once spiritually.

I like this idea very much and I find that both baptism and physical birth could make sense.
I still, after all these posts, do not understand how WATER could the the word of God in the sense that Jesus meant it.
John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

John 15:3 - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:26 - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word.

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

See how this all fits together?
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,881
10,054
113
60
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ye must be born again (literally, born a second time)

so we are looking for two births, the first birth and the second birth

one birth is of water (physical birth) one is of the spirit

One birth is of the flesh (physical birth) the other is of the spirit.

the focus is on being born of the spirit.

remember, Nicodemus asked if he must enter his mothers womb again (water)
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
30,681
51,881
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you saying that Nicodemus was not confused? In John 3:4, we read - Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
He sure was my friend . And this is the simplicity of it my friend .
When speaking of THE WORD
He who beleives JESUS is the CHRIST is born of GOD .
the water of the WORD .
Many think of the earthen things . But JESUS , His words are SPIRIT and THEY are LIFE .
Even when speaking to them later ,
HE even says LEST a man eat of my flesh and drink of My blood , HE HAS NO LIFE IN HIM .
That my friend is all about having FAITH IN JESUS THE CHRIST .
But they too thought he spoke of his flesh .
He who believeth the WORD , which be the gospel , which means IN JESUS CHRIST
has been covered by HIS BLOOD which giveth them LIFE .
The sacrficial lamb . And as the jews of old ate the flesh of the passover lamb
to keep the wrath of GOD off them and did so every year afterward
THE SHEEP OF HIS PASTURE have now eaten OF THE TRUE PASSOVER LAMB and drank HIS blood
My words are spirit and they are life . HE who beleives IN CHRIST JESUS
HAS ETERNAL LIFE and THEIR SINS forgiven and a new heart Given
But if one cannot hear even the simple gospel of truth
How can one discern the heavenly . It be bible time for all in the house . This walk must be CHRIST centered
and our fellowship , our unity , what we have in common , MUST
BE the TRUTH of our LORD wherein GOD , HIS CHRIST is PUT FIRST above all , LOVED above all
and to love the brethren .
HERE IS the LOVE of GOD . THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS .
SEE that IS THE LOVE OF GOD . not that we keep the commandments of interfaith and its men .
AND what exactly is HIS commandments .
Watch closely cause intefaith interreligious dialogue has OMITTED ONE OF THEM
and thus in effect IT has omitted them both .
TO BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST and to love one another .
Now you might be wondering how by OMITTING the BELEIVE IN JESUS part
MEANS you also have NO LOVE for the neighbor .
CAUSE how can leaving ONE in unbelief and allowing them to drown in a lie
BE LOVING them .
IT AINT . Ye shall not hate your neighbor in your heart
You shall in any way rebuke him , correct him , and not allow SIN upon him .
So they can give all their goods to the poor
and beleive the lie they all worship the same God . BUT IT WAS ALL IN VAIN . ALL of even anti christ
who sold the lie to them . IF i give even ALL my goods to the poor
YET HAVE NOT CHARITY , IT PROFITS ME NOTHING .
And guess what CHARITY REJOICES IN , and ONLY IN , THE TRUTH
not a fat broad path just lovey do road . cause that is a lie and a lie IS INQUITY .
SO lets have NO part in this interfaith abraham peace accords liberal progressive lie .
 

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
30,681
51,881
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ye must be born again (literally, born a second time)

so we are looking for two births, the first birth and the second birth

one birth is of water (physical birth) one is of the spirit

One birth is of the flesh (physical birth) the other is of the spirit.

the focus is on being born of the spirit.

remember, Nicodemus asked if he must enter his mothers womb again (water)
That sounds a wee bit blended to fit a mans teaching my friend .
The birth of being born again , HAD nothing to do with ever having been born of woman .
ITS ALL SPRITUAL , the water included , the water OF THE WORD .
And remember NICODEMUS was confused
AND JESUS told him the right answer . Your blending things to fit something men taught you .
Lets not make confusion outta what is so simple to see .
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,881
10,054
113
60
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That sounds a wee bit blended to fit a mans teaching my friend .
I just used the words of Jesus my friend. i did not add or subtract anything from what Jesus said
The birth of being born again , HAD nothing to do with ever having been born of woman .
lol. You did not hear what i said.. If you think I said this.. wow


ITS ALL SPRITUAL , the water included , the water OF THE WORD .
Could be the interpretation.

But may not be

The fact is, it says we must be born again. 2 different births

a physical birth and a spiritual birth

we all were born physically (water and flesh)

if we are not born spiritually, we will remain dead
And remember NICODEMUS was confused
AND JESUS told him the right answer . Your blending things to fit something men taught you .
you love to accuse people..

How about just look at the word. and stop being so accusatory.
Lets not make confusion outta what is so simple to see .
Its not confusing either.

it makes total sense.

I was born of the flesh in my mothers womb (water) everyone was.

We do not re-enter our mother womb (water) to be born again, we must be born of the spirit.

How is this done, read vs 10 - 18
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: David in NJ

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
12,687
6,633
113
50
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I just used the words of Jesus my friend. i did nto add or subtract anything from what Jesus said

lol. You did not hear what i said.. If you think I said this.. wow



Could be the interpretation.

But may not be

The fact is, it says we must be born again. 2 different births

a physical birth and a spiritual birth

we all were born physically (water and flesh)

if we are not born spiritually, we will remain dead

you love to accuse people..

How about just look at the word. and stop being so accusatory.

Its not confusing either.

it makes total sense.

I was born of the flesh in my mothers womb (water) everyone was.

We do not re-enter our mother womb (water) to be born again, we must be born of the spirit.

How is this done, read vs 10 - 18
Good Morning @amigo de christo

We KNOW that the Word is Spirit and is symbolized by water

JESUS is speaking to Nick in chapter 3 = this is BEFORE Jesus begins teaching about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which begins in chapter 4

Notice that the Spiritual Water of chapter 4 only comes AFTER a person is Born-Again

the Disciples were already Born-Again while they were waiting for the Day of Pentecost and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit

In chapter 3 the LJC clearly separated and distinguished the "water" to that of natural birth

SEE the picture in post 168 which is the clear evidence of God's Wisdom in His Creation
a.) First birth thru "water" of the mother's womb = "that which is flesh is flesh"
b.) Second Birth by the Spirit = "the Wind" = "that which is Spirit is spirit"

JESUS never said nor implied that the water was Spirit
in John 3:1-10

Therefore we cannot jump ahead in Scripture and redirect a passage of spiritual water and then interject it into John 3:1-10

Why did JESUS say this in chapter 3 = because angels cannot be Born-Again since they were created in God's Presence as spirits, only mankind can be Born a Second time

Notice that John 3:1-10 VALIDATES/CONFIRMS John 1:10-13

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become
sons of God, to those who believe in His name: who were Born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God.

John 1:10-13 is the EXACT wording of Truth in John 3:1-10


@GodsGrace @mailmandan
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
30,681
51,881
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I just used the words of Jesus my friend. i did not add or subtract anything from what Jesus said

lol. You did not hear what i said.. If you think I said this.. wow



Could be the interpretation.

But may not be

The fact is, it says we must be born again. 2 different births

a physical birth and a spiritual birth

we all were born physically (water and flesh)

if we are not born spiritually, we will remain dead

you love to accuse people..

How about just look at the word. and stop being so accusatory.

Its not confusing either.

it makes total sense.

I was born of the flesh in my mothers womb (water) everyone was.

We do not re-enter our mother womb (water) to be born again, we must be born of the spirit.

How is this done, read vs 10 - 18
TWO different births . THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY to be birthed again .
BY THE WATER OF THE WORD , BY THE SPIRIT .
And what is this water of THE WORD. THE WORD that the true sheep preach
that JESUS preached first which cleanses us and washes us clean .
IT KNOWN AS YE MUST BELEIVE ON JESUS .
And all who beleive JESUS IS THE CHRIST are born of GOD . its really quite simple my friend .
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
12,687
6,633
113
50
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
TWO different births . THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY to be birthed again .
BY THE WATER OF THE WORD , BY THE SPIRIT .
And what is this water of THE WORD. THE WORD that the true sheep preach
that JESUS preached first which cleanses us and washes us clean .
IT KNOWN AS YE MUST BELEIVE ON JESUS .
And all who beleive JESUS IS THE CHRIST are born of GOD . its really quite simple my friend .
LOVE you my Brother in Christ

In John 3:1-10 ,

a.) what is the symbolic word/symbolism used by the LORD to signify "that which is flesh"

b.) what is the symbolic word/symbolism used by the LORD to signify "that which is Spirit"

c.) is water baptism "flesh" or "spirit"???

ONLY use the words Spoken by the LORD in John 3:1-10
 

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
30,681
51,881
113
53
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
LOVE you my Brother in Christ

In John 3:1-10 ,

a.) what is the symbolic word/symbolism used by the LORD to signify "that which is flesh"

b.) what is the symbolic word/symbolism used by the LORD to signify "that which is Spirit"

c.) is water baptism "flesh" or "spirit"???

ONLY use the words Spoken by the LORD in John 3:1-10
that which is of the flesh , and we both know the flesh profits nothing .
The water as pertains to being born again has nothing to do with the water of the womb . JESUS speaks of
when speaking about HOW one is born again . AND THIS I KNOW you know .
IS water baptism flesh or spirit . OH it can darn sure be used as a means of the flesh .
NO doubt about it . for example i have seen many dry unrepentant sinners
GO down into the water and when they come up again
THE only difference in them is , WELL THEY ARE JUST A WET UNREPENTANT SINNER .
ITS NOT the water of H2O that saves nor changes a man .
THE water baptism is simply an act of OBEDIANCE unto HE WHO SAVES AND CHANGES said man .
That which is good can be used DEAD WRONG . if a man beleives HIS entering into that water
saved him , HE SHOULD NOT HAVE EVEN ENTERED INTO it IN the FIRST PLACE .
THERE IS ONE REQUIREMENT that phillip told the eunach HE HAD TO BELEIVE in order to even
BE water baptized . AND THE ONE that phillip mentioned and the requirement
to even be baptized , WAS JESUS THE CHRIST and YE NEEDS TO BELEIVE ON HIM .
WHY
CAUSE ITS HE WHO SAVES ,, Not the water of H2O , HE DOES .
AND what i just wrote , I KNOW YOU KNOW THIS WITH NO DOUBT .
I think we have us a slight misunderstanding and it can easily be cleared up .
 
  • Like
Reactions: David in NJ

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,881
10,054
113
60
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
TWO different births . THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY to be birthed again .
This is what I said.

do you think I said anythign different?
BY THE WATER OF THE WORD , BY THE SPIRIT .
And what is this water of THE WORD. THE WORD that the true sheep preach
that JESUS preached first which cleanses us and washes us clean .
IT KNOWN AS YE MUST BELEIVE ON JESUS .
And all who beleive JESUS IS THE CHRIST are born of GOD . its really quite simple my friend .
again, please show me where I said anything different.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.

washing of water by the word.

No argument here
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,881
10,054
113
60
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
that which is of the flesh , and we both know the flesh profits nothing .
The water as pertains to being born again has nothing to do with the water of the womb . JESUS speaks of
when speaking about HOW one is born again . AND THIS I KNOW you know .
IS water baptism flesh or spirit . OH it can darn sure be used as a means of the flesh .
NO doubt about it . for example i have seen many dry unrepentant sinners
GO down into the water and when they come up again
THE only difference in them is , WELL THEY ARE JUST A WET UNREPENTANT SINNER .
ITS NOT the water of H2O that saves nor changes a man .
THE water baptism is simply an act of OBEDIANCE unto HE WHO SAVES AND CHANGES said man .
That which is good can be used DEAD WRONG . if a man beleives HIS entering into that water
saved him , HE SHOULD NOT HAVE EVEN ENTERED INTO it IN the FIRST PLACE .
THERE IS ONE REQUIREMENT that phillip told the eunach HE HAD TO BELEIVE in order to even
BE water baptized . AND THE ONE that phillip mentioned and the requirement
to even be baptized , WAS JESUS THE CHRIST and YE NEEDS TO BELEIVE ON HIM .
WHY
CAUSE ITS HE WHO SAVES ,, Not the water of H2O , HE DOES .
AND what i just wrote , I KNOW YOU KNOW THIS WITH NO DOUBT .
I think we have us a slight misunderstanding and it can easily be cleared up .
so your saying the water in John 3 is water of baptism?
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,244
7,391
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
John the Baptist Baptized for something different although said in a contracted form of "for the remission of sins".
John Baptized for a principle that has a name today often lost in the shuffle of the New Covenant, the Dark Ages, and a famine of God's Word until the printing press came about 500 years ago...

Priesthood of every Believer.
Meaning we today can bring our own sins to God for forgiveness without any intercession because Jesus is our intercessor with the Father.
ALSO
One other important fact lost on us today with the proliferation of scriptures. The ability to quote scriptures and tell even Gentiles what they mean. Before this ONLY Priests or Rabbi could do such things. You could only memorize them for yourself or your household IF you were the leader (or going to be) of a family. (Paper and ink were EXPENSIVE) Meaning yes, women needed to know scriptures too but they were not to recite them or explain them.
Which is WHY Jesus said "Of those born of women there is none greater than John"

Mishandling scriptures by those unauthorized was no different than Misusing God's name. (3rd Commandment....capital punishment) But with John giving the authorization to do both things (recite and handle scriptures, seek forgiveness of sins)through a Baptism that they referred to as "for the remission of sins " it truly was and is what we refer to today as the "Priesthood of Every Believer"

Now.....second part.

Born From Above designated Caste of Israelites.
The requirements were simple....but a very high bar to reach which is why Nicodemus was reeling and incredulous at Jesus's statement.

The list of names?
Moses, Isaac, Jacob and Esau, Sampson, Samuel, John TB and of course Jesus PLUS his followers including Nicodemus...there are more but I'm forgetting them.

To be Born from Above you FIRST had to be mentioned specifically by a prophet BEFORE you were born...most were mentioned before they were even conceived. (Making Esau more suspect than Jacob....but Jacob's pre-conception prophesy is not easy to find...and theres something of a debate over Esau)

SECONDLY you had to be a benefit to all of Israel by completing a task God created for you specifically to do. (You had little choice in the matter as Sampson discovered) which gives cause for a Gentile to be included named Cyrus. (Still upsetting for Jews today)

Those two requirements are rather simple and loose all at the same time. But impossible to live up to for people who felt rather ordinary. Who like David's 72 appointees did not feel special but were because the King, David, said so. But they were driven by their own passions as God intended and foretold. They all accomplished what God set them out to do.


So....
The "born of water" is a metaphoric reference to the Law. As Paul wrote he didn't know what sin was without the Law. How can you seek forgiveness for sins if you don't know what sin is? Which this humility and forgiveness is what allows the Holy Spirit.
Hi John
Thanks so much!
I seem to remember that we might have discussed this quite some years ago on the other forum.
I remember that BORN FROM ABOVE is what was being dicussed as opposed to being BORN AGAIN.
Translation error if I remember right.
The above would really limit who could be born from above...
except that we become our own priests, as you explained.

So one had to be "declared" from heaven,,,from above....born from above...
after he also had completed his task.

Great post !
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,244
7,391
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
To GOD in the name of Jesus Christ be the Glory.

Am glad that helped you, am merely an unworthy servant helping and defending the All Scripture = Holy Bible. (2Timothy3:16&17)

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know why Jesus said it twice about 'born again' in verse 3 and 'born' in verse 5?
I don't know why specifically why Jesus mentioned being born again 2X in John 3:3 and 3:5...
however, I do know that when Jesus said something twice He was bringing attention to it or announcing that He was going to say something very important. For instance when He said "verily, verily I say...."

If you know why, please tell.
1 Thessalonians 5:
23. And the very GOD of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray GOD your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


GOD will do it, says Paul, but there's a chance of corruption and believers backslide.

One, is the devil who lie and deceive, like Jesus use the word of GOD to 'debunk', 'resist the devil and he'll flee from you.

Two, the world and it's things, it's necessities and pleasures, bridal every members of the body in resist.

Three, the enemy within, the flesh and it's works or fruits are evident according to Paul in Galatians ch. 5.

And ironically the flesh wars against the Holy Ghost within you, and we're unable to the things that we would, according to verse 17.

Apparently, the fruits of the flesh comes in conflict with the fruits of the Spirit.

Have you had this experience of conflict?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ
Here's how it was for me and I believe we all have a different experience.
When I was a new Christian I was just so thankful to God for letting me know His Son and I saw everything in a new light.
As I grew and time passed it became easier and easier to make choices that would please God.
Some may find it easier to be pleasing to God and some may find it more difficult...

I believe the important aspect of this is that we're doing our best, and God knows if we're doing our best.
We can trick man, but we cannot trick God.

As long as we love God and give our best effort to please Him,,,I believe we're in safe hands.
And I also believe that we are unable to do anything until the Holy Spirit directs us and when HE directs us it become simple...
or, at least, more simple/easy.

And our flesh will always come into conflict with our spirit....
so we ask forgiveness and carry on, and do not dwell on whatever it is we've done.
Every Christian experiences this....hence, the Holy Spirit,,,our helper.

Shalom to you!
 
  • Love
Reactions: David in NJ

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,244
7,391
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

John 15:3 - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:26 - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word.

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

See how this all fits together?
I certainly do see how it fits and I didn't say it doesn't.
This interpretation was listed in my OP and some theologians do believe the water is the word.

BUT,,,I might have asked this already,,,,HOW do you explain that if the water is the word it's like saying SPIRT 2X.

In John 7:37-39, which you posted above, Jesus says that rivers of living water will flow out of the heart...
then in verse 39 it states that Jesus spoke this about the Spirit.

So doesn't it make sense that the water is the Spirit?? (instead of the word).

And IF it IS the Spirit isn't that like saying that one must be born of spirit and the spirit??

Just thinking out loud.
 
  • Like
Reactions: David in NJ

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,244
7,391
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Good Morning @amigo de christo

We KNOW that the Word is Spirit and is symbolized by water

JESUS is speaking to Nick in chapter 3 = this is BEFORE Jesus begins teaching about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which begins in chapter 4

Notice that the Spiritual Water of chapter 4 only comes AFTER a person is Born-Again

the Disciples were already Born-Again while they were waiting for the Day of Pentecost and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit

In chapter 3 the LJC clearly separated and distinguished the "water" to that of natural birth

SEE the picture in post 168 which is the clear evidence of God's Wisdom in His Creation
a.) First birth thru "water" of the mother's womb = "that which is flesh is flesh"
b.) Second Birth by the Spirit = "the Wind" = "that which is Spirit is spirit"

JESUS never said nor implied that the water was Spirit
in John 3:1-10

Therefore we cannot jump ahead in Scripture and redirect a passage of spiritual water and then interject it into John 3:1-10

Why did JESUS say this in chapter 3 = because angels cannot be Born-Again since they were created in God's Presence as spirits, only mankind can be Born a Second time

Notice that John 3:1-10 VALIDATES/CONFIRMS John 1:10-13

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become
sons of God, to those who believe in His name: who were Born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God.

John 1:10-13 is the EXACT wording of Truth in John 3:1-10


@GodsGrace @mailmandan
Very interesting catch there David

Indeed John spoke about Nicodemus before he spoke of baptism of the Spirit.

However, we have to remember that John is writing many years after Jesus had ascended.
I don't think everything in the NT is precisely in time-order.

However, I do tend to agree that the water is natural birth.....the flesh is born -
and then a SECOND birth is necessary.....the one of our spirit.