WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[JohnDB]

Could you explain better what BORN FROM ABOVE means?
Difficult for me to understand why I have a problem with John 3:5
I know that J the B baprized for the forgiveness of sin.
HE said that one would come after him baptizing with fire and the Spirit.

John the Baptist Baptized for something different although said in a contracted form of "for the remission of sins".
John Baptized for a principle that has a name today often lost in the shuffle of the New Covenant, the Dark Ages, and a famine of God's Word until the printing press came about 500 years ago...

Priesthood of every Believer.
Meaning we today can bring our own sins to God for forgiveness without any intercession because Jesus is our intercessor with the Father.
ALSO
One other important fact lost on us today with the proliferation of scriptures. The ability to quote scriptures and tell even Gentiles what they mean. Before this ONLY Priests or Rabbi could do such things. You could only memorize them for yourself or your household IF you were the leader (or going to be) of a family. (Paper and ink were EXPENSIVE) Meaning yes, women needed to know scriptures too but they were not to recite them or explain them.
Which is WHY Jesus said "Of those born of women there is none greater than John"

Mishandling scriptures by those unauthorized was no different than Misusing God's name. (3rd Commandment....capital punishment) But with John giving the authorization to do both things (recite and handle scriptures, seek forgiveness of sins)through a Baptism that they referred to as "for the remission of sins " it truly was and is what we refer to today as the "Priesthood of Every Believer"

Now.....second part.

Born From Above designated Caste of Israelites.
The requirements were simple....but a very high bar to reach which is why Nicodemus was reeling and incredulous at Jesus's statement.

The list of names?
Moses, Isaac, Jacob and Esau, Sampson, Samuel, John TB and of course Jesus PLUS his followers including Nicodemus...there are more but I'm forgetting them.

To be Born from Above you FIRST had to be mentioned specifically by a prophet BEFORE you were born...most were mentioned before they were even conceived. (Making Esau more suspect than Jacob....but Jacob's pre-conception prophesy is not easy to find...and theres something of a debate over Esau)

SECONDLY you had to be a benefit to all of Israel by completing a task God created for you specifically to do. (You had little choice in the matter as Sampson discovered) which gives cause for a Gentile to be included named Cyrus. (Still upsetting for Jews today)

Those two requirements are rather simple and loose all at the same time. But impossible to live up to for people who felt rather ordinary. Who like David's 72 appointees did not feel special but were because the King, David, said so. But they were driven by their own passions as God intended and foretold. They all accomplished what God set them out to do.


So....
The "born of water" is a metaphoric reference to the Law. As Paul wrote he didn't know what sin was without the Law. How can you seek forgiveness for sins if you don't know what sin is? Which this humility and forgiveness is what allows the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

In regard to water baptism in John 3:22, by this time Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing..

I believe the water in John 3:5 pertains to living water and/or the word of God and that water baptism is the least likely explanation as I already explained in posts #35 and #174.

I appreciate this mailmandan.
I'm not here to debate this because I'm not sure what it means.
I've narrowed it down to baptism because both John the Baptist and Jesus baptized so it seems like an important event.
(I now that Jesus' baptizing came after he spoke to Nicodemus).

I also understand that it could be physical birth...this appeals to me too.
IOW,,,we must be born 2 times...
once physically
and once spiritually.

I like this idea very much and I find that both baptism and physical birth could make sense.
I still, after all these posts, do not understand how WATER could the the word of God in the sense that Jesus meant it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe that God created Adam to choose to be united with Him in perfect obedience, but that it required a test before that could happen, as willingness was vital, as love cannot be forced. So He created him innocent, without sin, and so therefore he could communicate with God but was not in the position that God desired for him.

I don't like that term 'relationship with God' it seems to let us think that one can be in union and still sin. The OT shows us that God cannot live where there is sin. We are either in Christ or not in Christ, in the Spirit or in the flesh.

So the testing was necessary and we know that Adam failed and was therefore cast out. The unitedness failed.

I believe that we also are born as Adam was, and with the age of accountability (maybe age 4) are tested too. However, because Satan is in the mix, and because he gained access to us after Adam fell, we fall too.

Finding faith in God is the first step however to be united to God there is a further step. Agreement to be in Christ in the crucifixion in order to be part of the resurrection and into zoe life.

I don't want to dwell on Adam too much.
God did create him to be innocent, but then the fall.
THAT was the test you speak of, in my opinion.

As to the age of accountability, I do agree with you, but having taught kids our faith, I'd say that 4 is much too young.
The age could be different for different kids. Most kids believe they've never sinned at the age of about 9 or 10.
They have to LEARN that doing "bad" is a sin and that it hurts God. And it takes more than one lesson !

I use the term RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD because it seems to cut through some ideas.
I believe that it IS a relationship but we have to remember that it's GOD....and He is to be honored...
IOW, He's not our buddy but our God and creator.

 

[Hepzibah]

I don't want to dwell on Adam too much.

Fair enough, though I think we have a lot to learn from him about the spiritual pathway back to the garden of Eden, entering through the fiery swords which the angel guards with, in order to be united with our Saviour and be given the position that Adam did not achieve.

God did create him to be innocent, but then the fall.
THAT was the test you speak of, in my opinion.

Indeed.

As to the age of accountability, I do agree with you, but having taught kids our faith, I'd say that 4 is much too young.

Psychologists have done an experiment with children around that age, and it was that point, where a child will sneak some sweets when left in a room alone after being told not to eat any. After 4 they will lie when asked.

The age could be different for different kids. Most kids believe they've never sinned at the age of about 9 or 10.
They have to LEARN that doing "bad" is a sin and that it hurts God. And it takes more than one lesson !

I use the term RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD because it seems to cut through some ideas.
I believe that it IS a relationship but we have to remember that it's GOD....and He is to be honored...
IOW, He's not our buddy but our God and creator.

Indeed.

 

[Fred J]

You touched on a theological idea that I like.

To GOD in the name of Jesus Christ be the Glory.

Am glad that helped you, am merely an unworthy servant helping and defending the All Scripture = Holy Bible. (2Timothy3:16&17)

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know why Jesus said it twice about 'born again' in verse 3 and 'born' in verse 5?

The trichotomy of man.

Man is made of 3 parts. Body, Soul, Spirit.
The body and soul comprise man in his natural state.
When we add the spirit, man becomes complete and is once again reconciled to Go.

1 Thessalonians 5:
23. And the very GOD of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray GOD your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

GOD will do it, says Paul, but there's a chance of corruption and believers backslide.

One, is the devil who lie and deceive, like Jesus use the word of GOD to 'debunk', 'resist the devil and he'll flee from you.

Two, the world and it's things, it's necessities and pleasures, bridal every members of the body in resist.

Three, the enemy within, the flesh and it's works or fruits are evident according to Paul in Galatians ch. 5.

And ironically the flesh wars against the Holy Ghost within you, and we're unable to the things that we would, according to verse 17.

Apparently, the fruits of the flesh comes in conflict with the fruits of the Spirit.

Have you had this experience of conflict?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[mailmandan]

I appreciate this mailmandan.
I'm not here to debate this because I'm not sure what it means.
I've narrowed it down to baptism because both John the Baptist and Jesus baptized so it seems like an important event.
(I now that Jesus' baptizing came after he spoke to Nicodemus).

I also understand that it could be physical birth...this appeals to me too.
IOW,,,we must be born 2 times...
once physically
and once spiritually.

I like this idea very much and I find that both baptism and physical birth could make sense.
I still, after all these posts, do not understand how WATER could the the word of God in the sense that Jesus meant it.

John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

John 15:3 - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:26 - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word.

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

See how this all fits together?