The "watch rapture view"

[Douggg]

"Transgression of Desolation" and "Abomination of Desolation" are virtually synonymous. "Transgression" adds the fact Antiochus didn't destroy the Temple but committed sacrilege against it.

Transgression is an act. The Transgression of Desolation is the act that the Antichrist will commit as described in 2Thessalonians2:4, a sit in the temple act in the Holy of Holies room.

Differently, the Abomination of Desolation will be set up (Daniel 12:11). It will basically be an idol, a statue image of the beast-king (the Antichrist person) that the false prophet will have made in Revelation 13. And placed on the temple mount.

Those things are future, not something that was done historically.

We are brothers, but we disagree on this interpretation. I wish you well...

I agree. For that reason, I try not to make any negative personal comments about any other posters here - even if we disagree.

 

[covenantee]

It's rather amusing to see Paul's four unequivocal confirmations of Jesus' declarations in Matthew 24:14, being ignored and replaced with futurized private interpretations.

Jesus' declarations:

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Paul's confirmations:

Romans 1
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Colossians 1
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The evidence:

GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED TO THE NATIONS

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [not until then] shall the end come" (Mt. 24:14). Unless we take this verse clear out of its setting, "the end" in view here is the end or destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. This was the question that Jesus was answering in the verses before, and the verses that follow are still speaking about Jerusalem and Judea. Jerusalem would be destroyed, but "first" the gospel would be preached unto all nations (Mk. 13:10).

It was a tremendous prophecy. Picture the scene. Here on the mount of Olives, Jesus was speaking these words to seemingly insignificant men. Who would have supposed that the names of these humble men would become known around the world and that even in our day—almost 2,000 years later—the seeds of truth that they planted would still be producing fruit? Who would have supposed that this unpopular gospel that Christ committed to these men would ever spread beyond that immediate area? Such a vast preaching program unto all nations seemed almost impossible of fulfillment. But it was fulfilled, and in a very real sense the gospel did go to all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D..

On the day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, there were present in Jerusalem "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). They heard the gospel preached by Peter and 3,000 were converted that day. Many of these, no doubt, returned to their various countries and preached the gospel.

Later when persecution came against the church, the believers at Jerusalem were scattered and "went every where preaching the word", throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria (Acts 8:1,4). Philip took the message to the city of Samaria with great results (verses 5-8). Later he was directed to a high ranking government official from Ethiopia who was gloriously converted (verses 26-40). It is believed that this man took the message to the continent of Africa and many were converted because of his influential testimony.

Peter took the message to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, an event that was a turning point in the missionary activities of the church (Acts 10, 11). The book of Acts gives a sketch of the mighty missionary work that advanced rapidly.

The message spread to Rome. By the time of Nero, the Christians had grown so numerous that they aroused the jealousy of the government. The story of the great fire in Rome in 64 A. D. —for which the Christians were falsely blamed—is well known. In writing to the Christians at Rome, Paul opens his epistle by saying, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), and his closing words talk about the gospel as having been "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (16:26).

Concerning even far away England, Newton says: "There is absolute certainty that Christianity was planted in this country in the days of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem." Eusebius and also Theodoret inform us that the apostles preached the gospel in all the world and some of them "passed beyond the ocean to the Britannic isles."

By the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians, he could say: 'The gospel...is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:6). Likewise, in verse 23, he mentions '"the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven."

By 70 A. D., the gospel had gone forth to the world for a witness. No longer was God's message to man confined to one nation or race.

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

 

[Randy Kluth]

Transgression is an act. The Transgression of Desolation is the act that the Antichrist will commit as described in 2Thessalonians2:4, a sit in the temple act in the Holy of Holies room.

Sounds like you're pretty dogmatic about this? That means there's no convincing you, right or wrong?

To just say "desolation" means this or that is hardly defining the word. What you're doing is imposing your own chosen definition and applying it based on your presuppositions.

There is nothing in Dan 8 that remotely suggests the Antichrist is being spoken of. On the contrary, it is indicated that out of one of the four horns of Alexander the Great's Empire this wicked one would emerge, which to me has to be Antiochus 4 of Syria.

Well, it is often argued that "time of the end" refers to an eschatological fulfillment when in context this obviously refers to the end of a particular historical kingdom. The kingdom is clearly identified as Greece!

Differently, the Abomination of Desolation will be set up (Daniel 12:11). It will basically be an idol, a statue image of the beast-king (the Antichrist person) that the false prophet will have made in Revelation 13. And placed on the temple mount.

Both AoDs were "set up." Antiochus 4's AoD was set up either as an Army or as a sacrilegious idol in the Temple area. Rome's AoD was an Army set up around the walls of Jerusalem. In my view, you're confusing two different prophecies. It is worth comparing them, as the Bible seems to be comparing them. But to conflate them is another matter entirely.

Those things are future, not something that was done historically.

More dogmatic proclamations?

I agree. For that reason, I try not to make any negative personal comments about any other posters here - even if we disagree.

That's respectable and much more important than agreeing on some of these more peripheral matters of interpretation. Thanks, I feel the same way. I would encourage you, however, to be less dogmatic, or at least to sound less dogmatic. It can incite those who may be otherwise willing to listen to your perspective. They know that not all being stated dogmatically is necessarily true.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Every thread on this forum goes off topic at some point. Who cares? I can make the point that you have no spiritual discernment if I want. It helps people to know to take anything you say with a grain of salt.

Oh wow, thank you for that emotionally charged essay disguised as a rebuttal. Truly, it must have taken great spiritual discernment to cram that many LOLs, assumptions, and insults into one post without a single meaningful citation of Scripture.

Let’s be real — you claim to have “done your homework,” yet somehow forgot to show your work. No references, no exegetical explanation, just lots of “LOL” and a whole heap of finger-pointing. If that’s your idea of biblical argumentation, you might want to ask for a refund on that spiritual education.

Now, you accuse me of saying you “don’t like to hear God’s Word.” I never said that — but your allergic reaction to actually quoting it is doing all the talking for you. You’re very loud about your opinion, yet strangely silent when it comes to backing it up with Scripture. That's like showing up to a sword fight with a rubber chicken and bragging about how sharp it feels.

As for your outrage about Satan — again, big emotions, zero Scripture. If you want to understand who Satan and how he started in the beginning, you know what you need to do.

And no, I don’t “act like I was there” in 70 AD — I simply read the historical and archaeological evidence, which you keep mocking instead of researching. That’s not spiritual insight, that’s willful ignorance with a laugh track.

Look, if your whole method is to avoid Scripture, lob accusations, twist words, and call it “discernment,” you’re not convincing anyone — you're just performing. And bad theology mixed with bad manners? That’s a one-two combo that helps no one, least of all yourself.

When you're ready to argue with the Bible instead of your keyboard, let me know.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus's word in red.

Luke 21:
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

LOL. Douggg, I know which verses contain Jesus's words. That was never a question. It's amazing that you can't even discern what I was asking for you to tell me. Forget it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite
reminder. I gave my position in my chart of the Olivet Discourse. I am waiting for you to respond with what verses you think should go under these three categories.

While that chart was somewhat helpful, it doesn't really answer my simple question about which verses you think fit between Luke 21:24 and Matthew 24:15 in terms of the order in which Jesus said what He did in the Olivet Discourse, if any. If you answer that question then I'll respond to your inquiry about which categories I place the verses. I don't answer someone else's question until they answer the one I asked first. My question is very simple, yet you have not been able to even answer it for whatever reason.

One way you could answer the question is if you tell me if you think Jesus said the following in this order during the Olivet Discourse...

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Do you think Jesus said what I showed above in that exact order during the Olivet Discourse? Yes or no? If yes, please read that whole thing and tell me if it makes sense to you that He could have actually said all that in that order. I can't imagine how confused the disciples would have been if He did. If you don't think He said the above in the order shown, then which verses would you place in between Luke 21:24 and Matthew 24:15 in terms of the order of what He said.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, Luke 11 & 13 has Jesus saying some of the things to the scribes and Pharisees while not even in Jerusalem that Matthew 23 has Him saying to them in the temple (on the same day as, and not long before, the Mount of Olives sermon).

Yes, Luke 17 has Jesus saying some of the exact same things when not even in Jerusalem that Matthew 24 has Him saying on the Mount of Olives about the end of the age and time of His return.

My point was that it proves that Luke was not an eyewitness but collected everything he wrote in every chapter of his gospel from the records of eyewitnesses.

My point was that It does not prove YOUR assertion that Jesus repeated some of the things in the temple and on the Mount of Olives that He had already said earlier.

I made it clear that's what I'm saying. So I'm not seeing your point.

My main point is simply that what is recorded in Luke 21:7-36 is Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse as it was told to him by eyewitnesses. A secondary point is that Jesus would have said some of the same things that He said in the Olivet Discourse on other occasions, but you seem to disagree with that. You seem to think that Luke wrote down parts of the Olivet Discourse that he received from eyewitnesses at multiple places in His gospel rather than only in Luke 21 and I disagree with that.

No I understand what you are saying, but I disagree and believe that the reason why your reasoning is flawed, is because you insist that whatever Luke wrote about what Jesus said on the Mount of Olives was in answer to the disciples' question regarding when the temple would be destroyed.

Not "whatever Luke wrote" as if I'm saying all of Luke 21 relates to the destruction of the temple. They asked two questions. I believe only the first question related to the destruction of the temple and the answer is found in Luke 21:20-24.

But Jesus' final words about that temple in Jerusalem were what He said about it being left unto them desolate and not one stone being left upon another, and declaring His own body to be the temple of God. He was not going to, was not prepared to, and did not talk about that temple again after that - but you guys who keep mentioning what the disciples asked, all speak as though the fact that Matthew, Mark and Luke recorded that the disciples asked Jesus when the Jerusalem temple was going to be destroyed, means that He answered their question: ​

Yeah, we've been over this before. I can't ever be convinced that He didn't actually answer their question about the destruction of the temple buildings. I can't imagine that He would tell them that the temple buildings would be destroyed, but then not be willing to answer a question about that.

 

[Douggg]

While that chart was somewhat helpful, it doesn't really answer my simple question about which verses you think fit between Luke 21:24 and Matthew 24:15 in terms of the order in which Jesus said what He did in the Olivet Discourse, if any.

In my post 191, I copied and pasted from the kjv all of the verses that fit between Luke 21:24 and Matthew 24:15 with Jesus's words highlighted in red. There is nothing to add, nothing to take away.

One way you could answer the question is if you tell me if you think Jesus said the following in this order during the Olivet Discourse...

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Do you think Jesus said what I showed above in that exact order during the Olivet Discourse? Yes or no?

No.

Luke 21:20 starts off with Jerusalem surrounded with armies. Luke 21:20 is 70 ad.

Matthew 24:15 starts off with the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel standing in the holy place. Matthew 24:15 is end times.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh wow, thank you for that emotionally charged essay disguised as a rebuttal. Truly, it must have taken great spiritual discernment to cram that many LOLs, assumptions, and insults into one post without a single meaningful citation of Scripture.

You haven't given me any reason to take you seriously, so LOLs are the most appropriate response to most of the nonsense that you are saying.

Let’s be real — you claim to have “done your homework,” yet somehow forgot to show your work. No references, no exegetical explanation, just lots of “LOL” and a whole heap of finger-pointing.

You made vague references to sources without quoting anything from them to back up what you're saying. I'm just supposed to take your word for it that those sources back up what you're saying? How about providing a quote or two?

Here is something that a Jew, Flavius Josephus, said about what happened in Jerusalem in 70 AD. You can skip to the last paragraph if you want to see his estimated numbers of those killed in Jerusalem and those taken captive at that time.

The Wars of the Jews, Book 6

Chapter 8

(403) So the Romans being now become masters of the wars, they both placed their ensigns upon the towers, and made joyful acclamations for the victory they had gained, as having found the end of this war much lighter than its beginning; for when they had gotten upon the last was, without any bloodshed, they could hardly believe what they found to be true; but seeing nobody to oppose them, they stood in doubt what such an unusual solitude could mean. (404) But when they went in numbers into the lanes of the city, with their swords drawn, they slew those whom they overtook, without mercy, and set fire to the houses wither the Jews were fled, and burnt every soul in them, and laid waste a great many of the rest; (405) and when they were come to the houses to plunder them, they found in them entire families of dead men, and the upper rooms full of dead corpses, that is of such as died by the famine; they then stood in a horror at this sight, and went out without touching anything. (406) But although they had this commiseration for such as were destroyed in that manner, yet had they not the same for those that were still alive, but they ran every one through whom they met with, and obstructed the very lanes with their dead bodies, and made the whole city run down with blood, to such a degree indeed that the fire of many of the houses was quenched with these men's blood. (407) And truly so it happened, that though the slayers left off at the evening, yet did the fire greatly prevail in the night, and as all was burning, came that eighth day of the month Gorpieus [Elul] upon Jerusalem; (408) a city that had been liable to so many miseries during the siege, that, had it always enjoyed as much happiness from its first foundation, it would certainly have been the envy of the world. Nor did it on any other account so much deserve these sore misfortunes, as by producing such a generation of men as were the occasions of this its overthrow.

CHAPTER 9

1. (409) Now, when Titus was come into this [upper] city, he admired not only some other places of strength in it, but particularly those strong towers which the tyrants, in their mad conduct, had relinquished; (410) for when he saw their solid altitude, and the largeness of their several stones. and the exactness of their joints, as also how great was their breadth, and how extensive their length, he expressed himself after the manner following:-(411) "We have certainly had God for our assistant in this war, and it was no other than God who ejected the Jews out of these fortifications; for what could the hands of men, or any machines, do towards overthrowing these towers!" (412) At which time he had many such discourses to his friends; he also let such go free as had been bound by the tyrants, and were left in the prisons. (413) To conclude, when he entirely demolished the rest of the city, and overthrew its wars, he left these towers as a monument of his good fortune, which had proved his auxiliaries, and enabled him to take what could not otherwise have been taken by him.

2. (414) And now, since his soldiers were already quite tired with killing men, and yet there appeared to be a vast multitude still remaining alive, Caesar gave orders that they should kill none but those that were in arms, and opposed them, but should take the rest alive. (415) But, together with those whom they had orders to slay, they slew the aged and the infirm; but for those that were in their flourishing age, and who might be useful to them, they drove them together into the temple, and shut them up within the walls of the court of the women; (416) over which Caesar set one of his freed men, as also Fronto, one of his own friends; which last was to determine every one's fate, according to his merits. (417) So this Fronto slew all those that had been seditious and robbers, who were impeached one by another; but of the young men he chose out the tallest and most beautiful, and reserved them for the triumph; (418) and as for the rest of the multitude that were above seventeen years old, he put them into bonds, and sent them to the Egyptian mines. Titus also sent a great number into the provinces, as a present to them, that they might be destroyed upon their theaters, by the sword and by the wild beasts; but those that were under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves. (419) Now during the days wherein Fronto was distinguishing these men, there perished, for want of food, eleven thousand; some of whom did not taste any food, through the hatred their guards bore to them; and others would not take in any when it was given them. The multitude also was so very great, that they were in want even of corn for their sustenance.

3. (420) Now the number of those that were carried captive during this whole war was collected to be ninety-seven thousand, as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand, (421) the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a traitness among them that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly.

If that’s your idea of biblical argumentation, you might want to ask for a refund on that spiritual education.

Now, you accuse me of saying you “don’t like to hear God’s Word.” I never said that — but your allergic reaction to actually quoting it is doing all the talking for you. You’re very loud about your opinion, yet strangely silent when it comes to backing it up with Scripture. That's like showing up to a sword fight with a rubber chicken and bragging about how sharp it feels.

You are incredibly clueless. I back up my beliefs with scripture on here as much as anyone does. That's the last thing you should be accusing me of.

As for your outrage about Satan — again, big emotions, zero Scripture.

That's a big lie. I referenced the scripture that talks about Jesus being tempted by Satan in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights. Do you need me to quote that to you? What is your understanding of that? Haven't you said that Satan represents humans' sinful desires? Do you think Jesus was temped by His own sinful desires? No, He was tempted by a living spiritual being whose names is Satan.

How about Revelation 20:10 talking about Satan being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented day and night? Is that describing people's sinful desires being tormented? Clearly not. That's only something that would be described in relation to a living being.

If you want to understand who Satan and how he started in the beginning, you know what you need to do.

I've already done it. You need to explain how your view of Satan makes sense in the examples I gave above and other scriptures that refer to him as a living being.

Look, if your whole method is to avoid Scripture, lob accusations, twist words, and call it “discernment,” you’re not convincing anyone — you're just performing. And bad theology mixed with bad manners? That’s a one-two combo that helps no one, least of all yourself.

When you're ready to argue with the Bible instead of your keyboard, let me know.

That's what you need to do. You are fooling yourself if you think you've made any kind of convincing argument from the Bible. You absolutely have not. You do things like try take texts that have no relation to the Olivet Discourse and were not part of the Olivet Discourse, such as John 2:18-21, and force them into the Olivet Discourse. You think that kind of Bible manipulation is convincing? Think again. You make simple things convoluted for no reason and that's your own fault.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my post 191, I copied and pasted from the kjv all of the verses that fit between Luke 21:24 and Matthew 24:15 with Jesus's words highlighted in red. There is nothing to add, nothing to take away.

Okay, this is very confusing. Based on that post, you are saying you believe that what Jesus said in Luke 21:25-36 immediately followed what He said in Luke 21:24 and then after He said what is recorded in Luke 21:36 He then said what He is recorded as saying within Matthew 24:1-14? Right? Does this mean you don't think Matthew 24:1-14 is parallel to Luke 21:5-19? You have Him saying what is recorded within Matthew 24:1-14 after what He said in Luke 21:24 but Matthew 24:1-14 is parallel to Luke 21:5-19, which records things Jesus said before Luke 21:24, not after. So, how do you explain all this? It's almost as if you think He said all of what He is recorded as saying in Luke 21 separately from the things He is recorded as saying in Matthew 24, but is that what you believe?

No.

Luke 21:20 starts off with Jerusalem surrounded with armies. Luke 21:20 is 70 ad.

Matthew 24:15 starts off with the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel standing in the holy place. Matthew 24:15 is end times.

Do you think that Luke 21:5-19 is parallel to Matthew 24:1-13? If so, why would the verses that follow each of those passages in each account not also be parallel to each other?

 

[Douggg]

Sounds like you're pretty dogmatic about this? That means there's no convincing you, right or wrong?

right.

There is nothing in Dan 8 that remotely suggests the Antichrist is being spoken of.

Daniel 8:13 is action by the little horn. The little horn person becomes the Antichrist.

 

[Douggg]

Okay, this is very confusing. Based on that post, you are saying you believe that what Jesus said in Luke 21:25-36 immediately followed what He said in Luke 21:24 and then after He said what is recorded in Luke 21:36 He then said what He is recorded as saying within Matthew 24:1-14? Right?

I did not say "immediately".

I show on my Olivet Discourse chart all of the verses in the order of the text.

I have not asked you to make your version of the chart because I know that you don't have computer graphics program skills to make charts.

But I did ask you to type what verses fit under the near term, long term, and end times categories. Don't re-arrange the text of Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 in doing so.

 

[Davidpt]

But yes, we agree on Dan 12.7 involving the end of the age, which includes the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign.

How is it reasonable to argue that Dan 12:7 is involving the end of the age, then argue that Daniel 12:11-12 is involving the days of A4E? As if verse 13 in Daniel 12 makes sense if applied to the days of A4E. After all, verse 13 can't be divorced from verse 11 and 12, especially verse 12. Just admit it, you are all over the place in Daniel 12. The idea is to try and make sense of the texts, not make the texts nonsensical instead. IOW, you are not even remotely being consistent throughout Daniel 12. And neither is the angel telling Daniel these things being consistent throughout Daniel 12 if you are correct.

One minute this angel is meaning the end of this age in verse 7. The next minute this same angel is meaning the days of A4E in verses 11 and 12. And once again, this same angel is meaning the end of this age in verse 13. Except this angel could not have possibly been confused about these things like you are. Apparently, you had bad teachers you should not have been listening to, but should have been listening to this angel in Daniel 12 instead, since this angel is not confused about anything, thus not all over the place like you have him being.

Once again, it is absurd that A4E is meant anywhere in Daniel 12 since the days of A4E have zero to do with verse 1,2,7, and 13, to name a few.

You make some of the same mistakes Preterists do in Matthew 24, for instance. Instead of interpreting things in context, where verse 14 involves the final days of this age, let's just make verses 15-21 be meaning 2000 years ago, thus zero to do with the end of this age meant in verse 14. Or let's have verse 34 meaning 2000 years ago even though the verses that just preceded it and the verses that follow it, are not meaning 2000 years ago, they are meaning the final day/s of this age.

 

[Douggg]

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Paul's confirmations:

Romans 1
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Paul's statements were relevant to all nations at the time of Paul. Not to all nations that exist in the end times, which include the western hemisphere nations.

The process to spread the gospel to all nations and then the end comes has been over the course of the past 2000 years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite
reminder. I gave my position in my chart of the Olivet Discourse. I am waiting for you to respond with what verses you think should go under these three categories.

near term - while Israel was under occupancy, leading up to the 70ad destruction of the temple.

long term - Israel into exile into the nations as the gospel was being spread to the nations, over the course of 2000 years.

end times - Israel back as a sovereign nation again, events of the latter days, latter years, when Jesus will return

What verses would you place...

under near term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????

under long term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????

under end times
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????

You tried to answer my question, but your responses are confusing. It seems like you think that nothing in Luke 21 is parallel to anything in Matthew 24, but you do believe both are part of the Olivet Discourse. I'm not sure if that's actually right or not, but that's how your responses come across.

Anyway, here's my response to your request...

under near term
Matthew 24:15-22
Mark 13:14-20
Luke 21:20-24

under long term
Matthew 24:4-8, 14
Mark 13:5-11
Luke 21:8-15

under end times
Matthew 24:9-13, 23-51
Mark 13:12-13, 21-37
Luke 21:16-19, 25-36

There's a few of the verses that I put in end times that could be long term instead, but this gives a general idea of where I see the verses fitting in those categories. I know some people, like you, assume that the first thing Jesus did was answer the first question, but I don't believe that and He certainly wasn't obligated to do so. I know you see Matthew 24:9-13 as occurring before or up to 70 AD, but that passage reminds me of what Paul wrote in 2 Thess 2:3-12 which has to do with things that occur in a time just before Jesus returns. So, that's why I put those verses in the end times category.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are parallel passages that don't give the exact same details.

Do you see them as all being parallel up to Matthew 24:14, Mark 13:13 and Luke 21:19, respectively? In other words, do you see Matthew 24:1-14, Mark 13:1-13 and Luke 21:5-19 as being parallel passages (without all the exact same details)? If so, I don't know why you would not see each of them as continuing to be parallel in the verses which follow each of those verses (Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20 and then beyond those as well).

For example, Luke did not say in Luke 21:20-24 what Matthew said about the one on the housetop not going down for what's in his house, and about the one in the fields not returning to fetch his clothes. Luke's record in Luke 21:20-24 about armies gathering around Jerusalem does not imply suddenness the way Matthew's does.

Can you elaborate on this? How are you concluding that Matthew 24:15-21 implies suddenness? Both passages indicate that once something is seen as happening then those in Judea would need to flee to the mountains. What is the difference between Matthew 24:15-22 and Luke 21:20-24 in relation to the suddenness that the things described in them occur?

Luke connects armies gathering around Jerusalem to the wrath of God coming upon the inhabitants of the city and the great distress that will cause them.

Matthew's gospel links the abomination of desolation in the holy place to the tribulation of the disciples mentioned in Matthew 24:9, 21-22 & 29 by use of the words "therefore", "and", "for" (because), "but" etc etc - and yourself and billions of other theological geniuses past, present and future cannot get away from that grammatical fact.​

You won't even acknowledge the grammatical fact that the word "therefore" does not have to refer to the verse or verses which immediately precede that verse (Matt 24:15), but can refer instead to something said previous to those, which is the case is other verses in scripture. Off the top of my head, I know Ephesians 4:1 is an example of that (refers back to Ephesians 3:13 rather than anything in Ephesians 3:14-21).

At best you can all ignore it and explain it away using your arguments about Jesus' statement regarding the Jerusalem temple and the disciples' question about it (which is what you guys all do).​

That's not what I'm doing at all. Your false accusations are rude and unnecessary. They make me think that is just how you prefer to communicate, so when you talk like that it makes me think you won't mind if I talk like that to you as well.

But Jesus' final words about that temple in Jerusalem were what He said about it being left unto them desolate and not one stone being left upon another, and declaring His own body to be the temple of God. He was not going to, was not prepared to, and did not talk about that temple again after that​

Again, it makes no sense that Jesus would tell the disciples that the temple buildings would be destroyed, but then, for some unknown reason, not be willing to give them any details at all relating to that when they asked about the timing of it. I can't buy that at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did not say "immediately".

I show on my Olivet Discourse chart all of the verses in the order of the text.

I have not asked you to make your version of the chart because I know that you don't have computer graphics program skills to make charts.

But I did ask you to type what verses fit under the near term, long term, and end times categories. Don't re-arrange the text of Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 in doing so. View attachment 65839

Communicating with you is very painful. You can't even answer simple questions. A chart alone does not clearly answer my question. But, based on this chart, it seems that you believe that what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 is something Jesus said either immediately after or shortly after saying what He said in Luke 21:20-24. Is that correct? If so, I can't imagine how confused the disciples would have been hearing Him say such similar things in succession like that without any explanation that He was talking about 2 different times when people in Judea would need to flee to the mountains. If He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 shortly after He said what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 then I would think when He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22, the disciples would have asked Him: "Didn't you already just say that a minute ago?".

It's so clear to me that Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 are parallel passages. I can't even believe that anyone can't see that. Luke worded things a bit differently in part of the passage (and exactly the same in other parts of the passage) only because of the Gentile audience he was writing to who would not have been familiar with the prophecy in Daniel. For him to record Jesus as saying to refer to the prophecy in Daniel and for him to tell his Gentile audience "let the reader understand" would not have made any sense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's rather amusing to see Paul's four unequivocal confirmations of Jesus' declarations in Matthew 24:14, being ignored and replaced with futurized private interpretations.

Jesus' declarations:

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Paul's confirmations:

Romans 1
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Colossians 1
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The evidence:

GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED TO THE NATIONS

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [not until then] shall the end come" (Mt. 24:14). Unless we take this verse clear out of its setting, "the end" in view here is the end or destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. This was the question that Jesus was answering in the verses before, and the verses that follow are still speaking about Jerusalem and Judea. Jerusalem would be destroyed, but "first" the gospel would be preached unto all nations (Mk. 13:10).

It was a tremendous prophecy. Picture the scene. Here on the mount of Olives, Jesus was speaking these words to seemingly insignificant men. Who would have supposed that the names of these humble men would become known around the world and that even in our day—almost 2,000 years later—the seeds of truth that they planted would still be producing fruit? Who would have supposed that this unpopular gospel that Christ committed to these men would ever spread beyond that immediate area? Such a vast preaching program unto all nations seemed almost impossible of fulfillment. But it was fulfilled, and in a very real sense the gospel did go to all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D..

On the day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, there were present in Jerusalem "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). They heard the gospel preached by Peter and 3,000 were converted that day. Many of these, no doubt, returned to their various countries and preached the gospel.

Later when persecution came against the church, the believers at Jerusalem were scattered and "went every where preaching the word", throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria (Acts 8:1,4). Philip took the message to the city of Samaria with great results (verses 5-8). Later he was directed to a high ranking government official from Ethiopia who was gloriously converted (verses 26-40). It is believed that this man took the message to the continent of Africa and many were converted because of his influential testimony.

Peter took the message to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, an event that was a turning point in the missionary activities of the church (Acts 10, 11). The book of Acts gives a sketch of the mighty missionary work that advanced rapidly.

The message spread to Rome. By the time of Nero, the Christians had grown so numerous that they aroused the jealousy of the government. The story of the great fire in Rome in 64 A. D. —for which the Christians were falsely blamed—is well known. In writing to the Christians at Rome, Paul opens his epistle by saying, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), and his closing words talk about the gospel as having been "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (16:26).

Concerning even far away England, Newton says: "There is absolute certainty that Christianity was planted in this country in the days of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem." Eusebius and also Theodoret inform us that the apostles preached the gospel in all the world and some of them "passed beyond the ocean to the Britannic isles."

By the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians, he could say: 'The gospel...is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:6). Likewise, in verse 23, he mentions '"the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven."

By 70 A. D., the gospel had gone forth to the world for a witness. No longer was God's message to man confined to one nation or race.

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

It's amusing to me that you think wars, pestilences, famines and earthquakes in other parts of the world besides Judea and Israel would be referenced in relation to a coming time of tribulation and wrath in Judea and Jerusalem. Global events being a sign of a coming local event? That makes no sense.

It's also amusing to me that you don't know the difference between the known world of the Roman Empire at that time and the literal entire world. The gospel was very likely not preached in literally the entire world back then already before 70 AD. I believe Jesus was talking about the gospel being preached in literally every nation in the world and not just the known world within the Roman Empire.

It's also amusing to me that you think the gospel being preached throughout the world would be a factor in determining when the destruction of Jerusalem should occur. What relation is there between the gospel being preached throughout the world and the timing of the destruction of Jerusalem?

It's also amusing to me that you see references to "the end" in Matthew 24:4-14 (verses 6, 13 and 14) and don't associate those references with the end of the age that Jesus was asked about.

It's also amusing to me that, as an Amil, you would not see references to a time of increased apostasy, deception and wickedness as being related to Satan's little season. It makes me wonder what your understanding is of Satan's little season. What do you think is the difference between how things are during the thousand years and how things are during Satan's little season spiritually and morally?

 

[Douggg]

Anyway, here's my response to your request...

under near term
Matthew 24:15-22
Mark 13:14-20
Luke 21:20-24

under long term
Matthew 24:4-8, 14
Mark 13:5-11
Luke 21:8-15

under end times
Matthew 24:9-13, 23-51
Mark 13:12-13, 21-37
Luke 21:16-19, 25-36

You have rearranged the text of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21. Look at my chart and you will see that I did not rearrange the text.

For example for Matthew 24, you have rearranged the verses to something different than Matthew 24.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Try again without rearranging the text.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have rearranged the text of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.

No, I haven't. Like you, I showed where I see each verse as fitting in the three categories you described. I rearranged nothing. Don't lie, Douggg. You're better than that.

Look at my chart and you will see that I did not rearrange the text.

What do you even mean by that? I'm not rearranging the text. Are you saying I'm not taking everything Jesus said in chronological order? If so, who cares? Prophecy is often not all in chronological order. It's very clear that Revelation 11 and 12 is not all in chronological order, for example. Am I rearranging the text of Revelation 11 and 12 by coming to that conclusion? You have the 7th trumpet sounding before the 5th trumpet. Are you rearranging the text to come to that conclusion? Stop your ridiculous false accusations.

I'm not going to take this nonsense from someone who denies that Matthew 24:15-22 and Luke 21:20-24 are parallel passages. If anyone is rearranging the text, it's you.