The "watch rapture view"

[Douggg]

Since you think the two passages are not parallel do me a favor and show me exactly when you think He said what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 compared to when He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22. Which do you think He said first and how long after do you think He said the other?

In Luke 21, Jesus was speaking when He was in the temple complex on the temple mount (we know from verses 1-3). So speaking at the temple complex was first. Then at the Mt of Olives after He and the disciples left the temple.

Here is how we know....
Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

In Matthew 24:3-51, Jesus was speaking when He was on the Mt. of Olives.

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Luke 21:20-24 (70 AD) is not parallel to Matthew 24:15-22 (end times) because Daniel wrote about the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 as being time of the end. Daniel 12:4, Daniel 12:9

The 1290 days of Daniel 12:11 and the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12 are still future. Do you agree ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are right, I was not there in 70AD. Your point is?

The point is that you act like you were there. You act like you somehow know that there were stones left upon another there after the Roman armies were done destroying the city.

You really ought to learn how to use Google.

LOL! I use it every day. You ought to learn spiritual discernment.

Try checking reliable historical, archaeological, and scholarly sources—ever heard of the Israel Antiquities Authority? Or the Temple Mount Sifting Project? Maybe crack open a copy of Biblical Archaeology Review, or look into peer-reviewed academic journals and findings from the City of David excavations.

There’s plenty of solid evidence out there showing that some stones are still sitting upon others. The fact that you’re unaware doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist—it just means you haven’t done your homework.

LOL. I have done my homework and I'm not seeing what you're seeing. So, show me an example or two of what you're talking about.

I did not make it up. I quoted God's Word. You just do not like to hear it.

I don't like to hear God's Word, you say? You are a liar. Why do you think lying is okay? It's a sin. You must not have read the parts of the Bible that describe lying as a sin yet. Probably tore out of your Bible like the scriptures which describe Satan as an actual living being.

I do not have to. God is the one who made you a fool:

Only a fool would deny Satan's existence. And you deny his existence and instead say it refers to our own sinful desires. As if Jesus was tempted by his own sinful desires in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights. The fact that you believe utter nonsense like that shows how untrustworthy you really are.

1Co 2:13-14
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man thinks that Satan isn't an actual living spirit being even though scripture and the Spirit of God teach that he is.

Oh, I see—we're dodging the original point now? Classic move.

Go ahead, show me exactly where it says Satan was created as an “angel” in the beginning. I’ll wait.

LOL. You really missed your calling of being a comedian if that isn't what you do for a living. Why would I need to do that when the Bible makes it clear that Satan is the leader of the fallen angels (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 12:9)? Why would I need to do that when it clearly portrays a living being as tempting Jesus in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights? You think Satan represents man's natural sinful desires. Do you think Jesus had natural, sinful desires? No, He did not.

Until then, spare us the whining about my take on Satan.

I will continue to bring that up to show everyone how little discernment you have. If you believe nonsense like that, why should anyone trust anything you say?

Seems like this thread has already drifted far off course anyway—might want to start a fresh one if you're that eager to keep missing the point.

Every thread on this forum goes off topic at some point. Who cares? I can make the point that you have no spiritual discernment if I want. It helps people to know to take anything you say with a grain of salt.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Luke 21, Jesus was speaking when He was in the temple complex on the temple mount (we know from verses 1-3). So speaking at the temple complex was first. Then at the Mt of Olives after He and the disciples left the temple.

Here is how we know....
Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I never said otherwise. That matches up with Luke 21:5-6.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

In Matthew 24:3-51, Jesus was speaking when He was on the Mt. of Olives.

Right. And that's what is recorded in Luke 21:7-38, also.

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Luke 21:20-24 (70 AD) is not parallel to Matthew 24:15-22 (end times)

Yes, it clearly is. Show me your overall understanding of what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse so I can see how you are coming up with this. It shouldn't be hard for you to do this. Use a chart if you want to. If you are going to make a claim like this, then show how it makes sense by combining Matthew 24 and Luke 21 together (and Mark 13 if you want) to give an overall view of what you think He said and when in the Olivet Discourse.

because Daniel wrote about the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 as being time of the end. Daniel 12:4, Daniel 12:9

The 1290 days of Daniel 12:11 and the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12 are still future. Do you agree ?

It's clear to me that Jesus was referring to Daniel 9:26-27 because the context of what He said to spawn the Olivet Discourse and the first question He was asked in the Olivet Discourse related to the destruction of the temple and that is what Daniel 9:26-27 is about.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In Luke 21, Jesus was speaking when He was in the temple complex on the temple mount (we know from verses 1-3). So speaking at the temple complex was first. Then at the Mt of Olives after He and the disciples left the temple....
Luke 21:20-24 (70 AD) is not parallel to Matthew 24:15-22 (end times) because Daniel wrote about the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 as being time of the end. Daniel 12:4, Daniel 12:9

The 1290 days of Daniel 12:11 and the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12 are still future. Do you agree ?

Doug, these are arguments I'm familiar with, and you've probably already heard my arguments against this? Dan 12 speaks of future things that Daniel was not given to know much about because they were somewhat distant to his time. The 1st event mentioned was the 3.5 years of Antichristian Reign that would end the age. The 2nd thing mentioned would precede that event by millennia, namely the Reign of Antiochus 4. Both events were huge in Israel's history, and both kind of summarized the book of Daniel.

Dan 12.7 refers to the Reign of Antichrist. Dan 12.11-12 refers to the Reign of Antiochus 4. The Reign of Antichrist is future. The Reign of Antiochus 4 ended before Christ came the 1st time.

I've heard it said that Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse is different from Matthew's and Mark's version. I disagree. They cover the same Discourse, and comparing all elements they agree. All refer to the destruction of the Temple, all refer to the Desolation brought by the Roman Army against the City and the Sanctuary, and it is all based on Dan 9.26-27.

Regardless of where the Discussion began, within the Temple Court itself, it is the same Discourse that begins again on the Mt. of Olives, referencing the destruction of the Temple in Jesus' generation. That happened in 70 AD. The Abomination of Desolation is the Roman Army, in my opinion, because Luke 21.20-24 agrees with Matt 24.15-22 and are what Jesus said, give or take a few words, in the exact same place in the Discourse.

Matt 24.3 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21.19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

 

[Douggg]

 

[Douggg]

@Spiritual Israelite

Study my Olivet discourse chart. Jesus spoke of things that would be near term, long term, and end times.

The only thing that you would have to alter regarding your view is that Matthew 24:15-22 is not 70ad but end times.

Then go to post 1 in my thread...

End times time frames by chapter and fit

Here are all the end times times frames in the bible by chapter in the order they appear in the first diagram. Then by fit in the second diagram.

www.christianityboard.com

...and go with my fit chart and you will have a pretty good understanding of the end times.

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And you can adopt the "watch rapture view" to be alert of the times and be ready by keeping the two greatest commandments that Jesus spoke of.....

....without changing your post trib rapture timing view. Which there is always going to be discussion about which of the popular rapture timing views is corrtect.

 

[Douggg]

Dan 12.7 refers to the Reign of Antichrist. Dan 12.11-12 refers to the Reign of Antiochus 4. The Reign of Antichrist is future. The Reign of Antiochus 4 ended before Christ came the 1st time.

Hi Randy,

I agree that Daniel 12:7 is time of the end, after the Antichrist person will have broken the power of the holy people.

Daniel 12:11-12 is also during that end times period. Not during Antiochus IV historic time.

In Daniel 11:31, Antiochus IV though was involved in an abomination of desolation event in his time, when his troops set up a statue image of Zeus in the temple.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite

Study my Olivet discourse chart.

That helps give some idea of how you see the timing of things in the 3 accounts and that's what I was looking for in order to see where you fit each passage in question (Matt 24:15-22 and Luke 21:20-24) in the Olivet Discourse.

I think it's very strange that you would think that Matthew 24:4-13 is parallel to Luke 21:8-19, but for some inexplicable reason you think Jesus jumps far ahead in time after Matthew 24:13, but not after the parallel verse of Luke 21:19. In other words, you see both the Matthew 24 and Luke 21 accounts of the Olivet Discourse as being parallel starting at the beginning of each account up to Matthew 24:13 and Luke 21:19 respectively, but then you think they suddenly stop being parallel in Matthew 24:14 and Luke 21:20, respectively, for no apparent reason.

Anyway, after Jesus said what He did as recorded in Matthew 24:4-13 and Luke 21:8-19, what do you think He said right after that? What is recorded in Matthew 24:14? Or first what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 and then Matthew 24:14 followed by what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-51 and Luke 21:25-36? I'll leave Mark 13 out of this particular discussion just to try to avoid making this too hard to follow.

What I'm trying to get at here is what you think Jesus said in between Luke 21:20-24 and Matthew 24:15-22. Which verses from Matthew 24 and/or Luke 21 do you think fit in between those passages, if any? Based on your chart, it seems like you think He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 immediately after saying what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24, but I'm not sure. So, please clarify that.

Jesus spoke of things that would be near term, long term, and end times.

I agree with that, but disagree with you on which verses fit each of those categories (not all of the verses, but some).

The only thing that would have to alter regarding your view is that Matthew 24:15-22 is not 70ad but end times.

No, that's not true. I disagree with you that Matthew 24:4-13 and Luke 21:8-19 relate to the destruction of the temple. It's very strange that you apparently think that the reference to "the end" in Matthew 24:6 and Matthew 24:13 is not related directly to the reference to "the end" in Matthew 24:14. There's no consistency in that interpretation.

Then go to post 1 in my thread...

End times time frames by chapter and fit

Here are all the end times times frames in the bible by chapter in the order they appear in the first diagram. Then by fit in the second diagram.

www.christianityboard.com

...and go with my fit chart and you will have a pretty good understanding of the end times.

LOL. I already know that I can't get a good understanding of the end times from you, so don't kid yourself.

 

[Douggg]

The Abomination of Desolation is the Roman Army, in my opinion, because Luke 21.20-24 agrees with Matt 24.15-22 and are what Jesus said, give or take a few words, in the exact same place in the Discourse.

Randy, Matthew 24:15-22 is preceded by this verse...

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

....thus verse Matthew 24:15 is in the end times. Luke 21:20-24 was in 70 ad.

 

[covenantee]

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And it was.

Romans 1
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Colossians 1
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[Douggg]

Anyway, after Jesus said what He did as recorded in Matthew 24:4-13 and Luke 21:8-19, what do you think He said right after that? What is recorded in Matthew 24:14? Or first what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 and then Matthew 24:14 followed by what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-51 and Luke 21:25-36?

I may be misunderstanding what you wrote regarding your question to me.

But the key is Matthew 24:14 is a long term verse of the gospel being preached to the nations until the end (times) comes. The gospel has been preached to the nations for 2000 years (thereabouts).

Matthew 24:14 fills the gap between the near term events and the end times events.

 

[Douggg]

I disagree with you that Matthew 24:4-13 and Luke 21:8-19 relate to the destruction of the temple.

Those verses are about events are prior to the destruction of the temple.

 

[Douggg]

I agree with that, but disagree with you on which verses fit each of those categories (not all of the verses, but some).

What verses would you place...

under near term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????

under long term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????

under end times
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those verses are about events are prior to the destruction of the temple.

That's what you think about the parallel passages of Matthew 24:4-13 and Luke 21:8-19, but why do you then have Jesus talking about something entirely different in the next verse of each passage in terms of the timing (Matt 24:14 and Luke 21:20)? Why do you not see the passages as continuing to be in parallel after Matthew 24:4-13 and Luke 21:8-19, respectively? I don't think that makes any sense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I may be misunderstanding what you wrote regarding your question to me.

But the key is Matthew 24:14 is a long term verse of the gospel being preached to the nations until the end (times) comes. The gospel has been preached to the nations for 2000 years (thereabouts).

Matthew 24:14 fills the gap between the near term events and the end times events.

This is a lot of work on my part to try to get you to show me exactly what you think Jesus said between Luke 21:20-24 and Matthew 24:15-22. Can you just tell me that, please? If we were able to combine everything Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse into one passage, which verses of the Olivet Discourse from Matthew 24 and Luke 21 (nevermind Mark 13 for now) do you think fit between Luke 21:24 and Matthew 24:15?

I'm just trying to see if you think He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 immediately after saying what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 or if you think He said something in between or what. Please clarify that for me. There is a reason I'm asking this and I'll show you that once you clarify this.

 

[Douggg]

This is a lot of work on my part to try to get you to show me exactly what you think Jesus said between Luke 21:20-24 and Matthew 24:15-22. Can you just tell me that, please?

For what Jesus said, just go to the kjv online and read the text in red in Luke 21:24 to the remainder of Luke 21. Then go to Matthew 24 and the text in red to Matthew 24:22.

My chart shows which verses are near term, long term, and end times.

Go to my post #173 and fill out what verses you believe applies to near term, long term, and end times.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My chart shows which verses are near term, long term, and end times.

Go to my post #173 and fill out what verses you believe applies to near term, long term, and end times.

Douggg, why do you do this? Why do you expect me to answer your questions before you finish answering mine that I asked first? You do that all the time and it's very annoying. Can you just finish answering my question first? It's a very simple question. After Jesus said what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24, which verses, if any, do you think record what He said before what He is recorded as saying in Matthew 24:15-22? I just want to know if you think He said what is recorded in Matt 24:15-22 immediately after what He is recorded as saying in Luke 21:20-24 or shortly after or what. Then we can put the verses together and see what that looks like and see if it makes sense or not.

After that I'll be glad to answer your questions about where I place the timing of the verses. But, you'll have to first define "near term", "long term" and "end times" for me so I know what those terms mean exactly.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, why do you do this? Why do you expect me to answer your questions before you finish answering mine that I asked first?

I edited my post and responded to your question with this...

For what Jesus said, just go to the kjv online and read the text in red in Luke 21:24 to the remainder of Luke 21. Then go to Matthew 24 and the text in red to Matthew 24:22.

 

[Douggg]

After that I'll be glad to answer your questions about where I place the timing of the verses. But, you'll have to first define "near term", "long term" and "end times" for me so I know what those terms mean exactly.

near term - while Israel was under occupancy, leading up to the 70ad destruction of the temple.

long term - Israel into exile into the nations as the gospel was being spread to the nations, over the course of 2000 years.

end times - Israel back as a sovereign nation again, events of the latter days, latter years, when Jesus will return

What verses would you place...

under near term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????

under long term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????

under end times
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I edited my post and responded to your question with this...

For what Jesus said, just go to the kjv online and read the text in red in Luke 21:24 to the remainder of Luke 21. Then go to Matthew 24 and the text in red to Matthew 24:22.

What do you mean "the kjv online"? What is that? I use biblegateway.com. But, I don't even know what you're saying here. My question is VERY simple. Do you think Jesus said anything between what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 and what is recorded in Matthew 24:15? If yes, which verses do you think record what He said between Luke 21:20-24 and Matthew 24:15-22? Or do you think immediately after saying what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 He then said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22?