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Hiddenthings

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"But I have a testimony greater than that from John"

"luchnos" helps us to understand!...."He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light."
John 5:35 (ESV)

It must have been an incredible experience for God to share what He was going to do first through John and then completely in Jesus - really speaks to the patience and longsuffering of God!

He says: 'It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.'" Isaiah 49:6 (ESV)

From the depth of darkness we all need that Light.

A lessor and greater light o_O Gen 1:3,16
 

Matthias

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“You people have never heard his voice nor seen his form at any time, nor do you have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the one whom he sent.”

(John 5:38, NET)

That’s what happens when you do not believe the one whom God sent.

What happens when you do believe the one whom God sent?

Hear his voice, see his form, have his word abiding in you.
 
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ScottA

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Reading this again there really is a lot of guff going on here. Yahweh creates! Everything His Logos expresses is either Creating or Sustaining.

Pre-incarnation is no substitute for God manifestation!
"Preincarnation" is just a word used to somewhat understand the reality of "it is written" regarding things only seemingly occurring in the present.
 

Hiddenthings

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He says: 'It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.'" Isaiah 49:6 (ESV)
Can you imagine Jesus reading this for the first time as a child?...knowing he was that Servant! Then when he is much older?

@Matthias

Read the above verse as part of a conversation between God and Jesus. After Jesus expresses sorrow over the lack of response to his preaching (the testimony) among the Jews (Isaiah 49:4!), God responds by assuring him that his mission will go far beyond Israel, his message of salvation will also reach the ends of the Gentile world.

Matthias, this ties back to your original point: the testimony given to Jesus was one he fully embraced (listened intently!). Yet even so, he experienced moments of deep discouragement, particularly before his transfiguration, when the Father strengthened him with a brief glimpse of Kingdom glory.

Both Jew & Gentile are without excuse for not heeding the testimony.

I wonder how many in this thread actually know the testimony!?
 

ScottA

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And sometime, men invent the impossible to create a god in their own image and after their own likeness.
Sometime men do, and sometimes they try to make what is indeed possible with God, sound crazy.

But, let me be clear, I was not implying anything. I was declaring what is true from God.
 

Hiddenthings

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Sometime men do, and sometimes they try to make what is indeed possible with God, sound crazy.

But, let me be clear, I was not implying anything. I was declaring what is true from God.
What men think is true from God and what actually is true can be two different things.

"I did not send the prophets, yet they ran; I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied."

It's been a problem from the beginning "you shall not surely die!"

The OP speaks about a true testimony about a man God raised up out of the seed of David....born of a woman, born under the law. Whatever is truth Scott..its in that man, Christ Jesus!
 
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Brakelite

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Yes. And yet the key to the pre-incarnation of the Son of God, only comes with a proper understanding of the creation:

God created the heavens and the earth and then created man of the same substance, and called it an "image." Think that through very carefully.

From that point forward that image-based and defined world is revealed following the same "Let there be light; and there was light" process unfolding the man and his world. Which then with the fall comes the fulfillment and effect of darkness--that shadow of turning that only exists in this created world; and the unfolding and advancing of God's salvation plan--not only for this world, but to rid the heavens of darkness (evil) also, namely Satan.

Fast forward to Messiah, and the "image" becomes "God with us"--God himself, made manifest by and in the same imagery. Thus, God is One; and yet the image of God has seemed to take on an image of His own. But what shall we say, that a self portrait makes Two? Still, among men, among the world in its own context--if one is so foolish to insist upon doing so, or if considered in story form like the words of a book that is written--should not such a character exist and even be given His own name while the curtain is still showing Him as such? Would that not make such an image--God's babe, His child by creation?

Is the world really apart from God--and if so, is it not proper even to separate God from His own image?

It is--but only for a time.
I think to fully appreciate the "image", one needs to understand, without Trinitarian biases, the meaning of monogenes in the classical first century Greek sense of the word.

If anyone is interested, I can offer a
**comprehensive linguistic and contextual study of "monogenes"** which offers a nuanced perspective that goes beyond the typical "unique" vs. "only begotten" debate[1].

**Key findings from the article:**

- **Primary Meaning:** The core argument, supported by a survey of Greek literature (including the Septuagint and New Testament), is that "monogenes" most fundamentally means **"only child" or "only begotten"**—that is, a biological offspring with no siblings. This is its most frequent and basic usage, especially when used in familial contexts[1].
- **Contextual Usage:** While "monogenes" can sometimes mean "unique" or "one of a kind," these are seen as metaphorical extensions of the primary meaning. The article emphasizes that the context in which John uses "monogenes" (always in relation to sonship) points to the literal, familial sense, not just uniqueness[1].
- **Biblical Examples:** The article examines how "monogenes" is used in other New Testament passages (e.g., the widow’s only son in Luke 7:12, Jairus’s daughter in Luke 8:42, Abraham’s son Isaac in Hebrews 11:17) to consistently mean "only child" or "only begotten," not merely "unique"[1].
- **Relevance to Christ:** Applied to Christ, the article argues that John’s use of "monogenes" is best understood as referring to Christ’s **real, literal sonship**—the only one "brought forth" or "begotten" of the Father—rather than a metaphorical or purely functional relationship[1].
- **Implications:** This reading supports the view that the biblical text affirms a true Father-Son relationship, where Christ is the only begotten Son of God in a real, familial sense, not just a unique being or a role[1].

**Conclusion:**
This third perspective, grounded in broad linguistic evidence, contends that "monogenes" in John’s writings most naturally means "only begotten" or "only child," emphasizing a literal and exclusive filial relationship. This challenges both the "unique" interpretation and the abstract, eternal generation model, instead supporting a concrete, scriptural understanding of Christ’s sonship[1].

Citations:
[1] ANOTHER LOOK AT MONOGENES (Gr. μονογενής) https://theprophetstillspeaks.co.uk/Articles_pdf/Another_look_at_monogenes.pdf
[2] Monogenes - one-of-a-kind and unique ? Or "only begotten"? Monogenes - one-of-a-kind and unique ? Or "only begotten"?
[3] Monogenes Huios: The Only Begotten Son - As It Reads Monogenes Huios: The Only Begotten Son - As It Reads
[4] The Nicene Creed: The Only-Begotten Son of God - Clearly Reformed The Nicene Creed: The Only-Begotten Son of God | Clearly Reformed
[5] Monogenes: 'only begotten' or 'one of a kind'? https://www.tbsbibles.org/page/monogenes
[6] My Struggling Reflections on Monogenēs, “Only Begotten,” & Eternal Generation https://christisthecure.org/2022/04...n-monogenes-only-begotten-eternal-generation/
[7] Monogenes: “Only Begotten” or “One of a Kind”? Monogenes: “Only Begotten” or “One of a Kind”? | Christian Library
[8] "Only Begotten" or "One and Only" "Only Begotten" or "One and Only"
[9] Begotten or Unique Begotten or Unique

The above article is by a friend of mine in England, the above summary generated by AI. This is not an article attacking the 3 persons in the Godhead concept, but rather an in depth study of the original language and how the writers of the NT would have written and understood the meaning of "only begotten". As you can see, there are numerous citations which while it does present the Nicene creed in an unorthodox light, does not deny the Father, Son, and Spirit as members of the Godhead, nor does it deny the divinity of Christ, but to the contrary, gives more explicit support and reason for a literal divine Son of God.

Therefore the Nicene concept being so called "mysterious", (not a church, theologian, or philosopher anywhere or at any time being able to logically explain it, is logically inconsistent and contradictory so long as they insist on eternal generation. It's assumption, and not based on scripture. The Son's eternal nature and divinity can be defended without denying His beginning. His nature is eternal in that He came forth from an eternal Father, but His personality is not eternal as He had a beginning. It's like a rock falling from the side of a mountain. The Rock is the same nature as the mountain, but has a beginning... "begotten if you like"...as an individual existence. And like all relationships between fathers and sons, there is a difference in rank, although equal in all other aspects.

It is because of the so called "mysterious" nature of the Trinity doctrine, and the unexplainable concepts within it, that was the catalyst for so many rejecting it, and the resulting controversies and violence associated with the promulgation of the doctrine. Yet the Godhead can be defended without the philosophical reasonings that defy credulity. If we accept monogenes as literally as it was intended, then we have no need of assumption or conjecture, much less compulsion, in order to promote the idea of a Godhead of 3 individual persons.
The holy Spirit however is another matter. His nature and life is not explained in scripture, and we would do well to not guess or assume anything beyond what scripture reveals. Which is very little.
 
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Brakelite

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"But I have a testimony greater than that from John"

"luchnos" helps us to understand!...."He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light."
John 5:35 (ESV)

It must have been an incredible experience for God to share what He was going to do first through John and then completely in Jesus - really speaks to the patience and longsuffering of God!

He says: 'It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.'" Isaiah 49:6 (ESV)

From the depth of darkness we all need that Light.

A lessor and greater light o_O Gen 1:3,16
An earlier revelation to what God was going to do is found on nearly every page of scripture, starting with Genesis 3, continuing with Genesis 6, starkly revealed in the sanctuary, and culminating in Christ Himself. “And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. ”
Genesis 22:8 KJV
 
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ScottA

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What men think is true from God and what actually is true can be two different things.

"I did not send the prophets, yet they ran; I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied."

It's been a problem from the beginning "you shall not surely die!"

The OP speaks about a true testimony about a man God raised up out of the seed of David....born of a woman, born under the law. Whatever is truth Scott..its in that man, Christ Jesus!
Again you smoooth over the truth as if all prophecy is false and everyone sent by God is full of themselves, when there is both true and false. So slick. But you didn't just say that there is both...and there is a reason you did not, and it's not good.