Which ones are you speaking of in which post?
And how might those void the scriptures he has posted?
Show which scripture was twisted, can you show it and point out the corruption on his part?
Doctrine of Predestination
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Which ones are you speaking of in which post?
And how might those void the scriptures he has posted?
Show which scripture was twisted, can you show it and point out the corruption on his part?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Correct, but we will be spared Gods wrath which is the 7 year tribulation. Satan may be angry but the trumpets and bowls are Gods wrath poured out.
Techinically, tribulation saints are not Christians, just saved saints.
Christians are the body of Christ and the body is taken up sometime between now and before Israel and the Antichrist sign the 7 year covenant.
Yes we do suffer demonic wrath, onjly as far as God allows for our good and His glory.
Which verses are you saying Nameaboveallnames disagrees with then?All of them
Much ink has been spilled by many theologians down the ages over this conundrum of predestination. The perplexity of this mystery as it relates to salvation has, not surprisingly, given rise to the heresy of "predestinarianism", of which Calvinism is one of its chief advocates. This heretical understanding of Paul's teaching concerning "those whom [God] has predestined [...]" is based on two fundamental errors:
- the absolute will of God as the sole cause of the salvation or damnation of the individual, regardless of his merits or demerits;
- as to the elect, it denies the freedom of the will under the influence of efficacious grace and puts the reprobate under the necessity of committing sin because of the absence of grace.
All men are predestined to grace, because Jesus died for all men without exception.
Those who remain faithful at least to the natural law of the Good are predestined to glory. At the end of time, yes, everyone who has lived as a just person will have their reward.
From eternity God has known those who were destined to glory, even before they were born, that is “predestined”. Be careful however to understand the justice of God with justice.
It is certain that there are predestined people. And God knows them before their time to live begins. But they are not so because God has given them every means of becoming glorious and blocked all dangers of the devil, the world and the flesh. That would clearly be unjust. God gives them what He has given everybody. They use God’s gifts with justice, and therefore win future and eternal glory through their own free will.
God knows that they will reach this eternal glory. However, they do not know it, nor does God tell them in any way. The special gifts themselves are not a sure sign of glory; they are a more severe means to test a person’s spirit in their will, virtue, and faithfulness to God and His Law. God knows. He is happy to know in advance that a particular creature will achieve glory just as He suffers knowing that another will freely achieve damnation.
However, He does not intervene in any way to force the free will of any creature in order for it to reach the place where God wants everyone to reach; Heaven. Of course a creature’s response to divine help increases its will power. God opens up the more a man loves Him in truth; the love of actions, not that of words.
And again, the more man lives a just life, the more God communicates with him and shows Himself to him. It’s a foretaste of that knowing God that makes the saints in Heaven so happy. From this foretaste comes an increased capacity to want to be more perfect. However, man is always free to follow his own will and if after reaching perfection decides to renounce the good done and sell himself to Evil, God leaves him free to do so. There would be no merit if one is forced to do something.
To conclude: God knows from eternity who are the future eternal inhabitants of Heaven, but man with his free will must want to reach Heaven using the supernatural help that the Eternal Father gives every creature. It will be like this until one’s last breath, whatever the gifts received or the level of perfection reached.
Remember nobody has ever arrived until their journey is finished. That is, no one can be sure to have merited glory until their time is over and immortality begins. (TLN)
Yeah and it was all in vain too!
All they had to do was read God's Word.
Correct and He is not coercing anybody to get saved nor is He preventing anybody from getting saved.
All men are predestined to grace, because Jesus died for all men without exception.
No, the Lord is not happy about those that reject Him and are damned.
Correct, because again, there would be no merit if one is forced to do something.
As I said, "All men are predestined to grace, because Jesus died for all men without exception."
I didn't say that He was. Re-read the following: "He is happy to know in advance that a particular creature will achieve glory just as He suffers knowing that another will freely achieve damnation."
Yes. Isn't it great that God's grace and love are irresistible. And ALL will repent and become recipients of them.
And it's great that God has chosen SOME to receive revelation, redeeming SOME from every nation, people, tribe and tongue.
I love the truth that God chooses to redeem some AND that all are redeemed.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I'll use your scriptures if you don't mind.
John 17:6 and Ephesians 1:4 are both regarding the Apostles ONLY.
Romans 8:29-30 is not WHO is being predestined, but about the conformation to the image of His Son is predestined in all you believe.
Ephesians 1:4 - Paul speaking to the Church at Ephesus, those who were chosen before the foundation of the world. Doug, the only ones predestined are again, the Apostles "who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory! The Ephesians were not predestined.
Revelation 13:8 - those who names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will not worship that "dragon" (devil). Doug, read it again; you've quoted it the opposite of what is written. (7 It was granted to him (beast) to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him (beast) over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him (Satan), whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.) Also it is the Lamb (Jesus) who is predestined to be slain from the foundation of the world.
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The Creator wasn't under any obligation to create the lump of clay. But He still chose to. He wasn't under any obligation to make anything with it, but He chose to.
What He chose to make has been His choice from the beginning. AND the purpose for the items He shaped them into was His choice too.
So out of the whole lump, every tongue tribe people and nation Christ is redeeming some for Himself. Why? To reign with Him in His kingdom as kings and priests according to his eternal purpose. Yes, to reveal His manifold wisdom to the divine audience in this process.
This is absolutely amazing. He is the Potter. We are of the clay He chose to create.
So He doesn’t coerce, He never needed to. He just makes His decision and carries it out. Quite simple really.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I'd appreciate if you would not call them my scriptures. They aren't mine, they are The LORD's.
Correction, the John 17:6-19 verses are specifically about Christ's chosen Apostles.
Ephesians 1 is about BOTH, Christ's chosen, and then the called, because there is a difference, as the below reveals, and as John 17:20 also reveals...
John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
At the above verse Jesus begins speaking of a SECOND GROUP of believers; those who come to believe on Him "through their word". Through who's word? Through the preaching of The Gospel by His Apostles, that's what He was saying showing He was specifically speaking of His chosen Apostles prior to that 20th verse.
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
22 And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.
KJV
Then Jesus prays that BOTH GROUPS TOGETHER become ONE in Him and in The Father. That means BOTH groups are deemed the elect, called and chosen. But ONLY those of the 2nd group which Christ's chosen preach to and they believe, can fall away from Christ. His chosen cannot fall away because the chosen were already owned by The Father, and He gave them to Jesus.
Then the Ephesians 1 parallel...
Eph 1:11-13
11 In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Who were those that "first trusted in Christ"? His chosen Apostles. They were predestinated and 'sent'; per the language of John 17 about His chosen Apostles.
13 In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV
That above 13th verse is the same... idea Jesus said in John 17:20 that He prayed not only for His chosen sent Apostles, but ALSO for those who would believe on Him BY THEIR WORD (i.e., by the preaching of The Gospel by His chosen Apostles). It is about the SECOND GROUP of believers, the called only.
And then what did Lord Jesus pray in John 17 after He said that? He prayed that BOTH GROUPS of believers would become ONE in Him and in The Father.
Thus Apostle Paul is covering Christ's Salvation to BOTH GROUPS of believers TOGETHER, as ONE BODY.
Yes, and that applies to the CALLED also ONLY IF... they do not fall away from Christ, and remain faithful all the way to Christ's return.
But Christ's chosen sent ones are called and chosen, and cannot fall away. That's why in Matthew 24:24 Jesus gave the comparison about His chosen with showing the coming false-Messiah will work great signs and wonders that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, even His VERY ELECT would be deceived. That "if it were possible" phrase shows their condition that His "very elect" (chosen) cannot be deceived.
All this may seem difficult, but I'm certain our Heavenly Father and His Son had a reason to setup those TWO GROUPS of believers that way, His chosen "very elect" vs. the called only. That model for the two groups is covered throughout The Bible, so John 17 is not the only Scripture about the two groups. That Matthew 24:24 verse about the "very elect" is one such example, Christ divinely intervening with Saul on the road to Damascus, and calling Paul His "chosen vessel" is another, etc.
And most of all, the many New Testament Scriptures by Apostle Paul and Peter about how many believers will fall away in the latter days. In Acts 20 Apostle Paul said for 3 years he ceased not to warn every day and night, with tears. IF... every believer were 'chosen', and could not fall away, then Paul would never have said that. So with the subject of predestination, one needs to be careful not to bring Calvinism into it, because he didn't believe we had a free will choice, and treated all believers as if all were chosen and not by their own will. He treated all believers as being predestinated and chosen, thus confusing the difference between the chosen vs. the called only.
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David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I took "your scriptures" as a less wordy way of saying, "the scriptures which you quoted."
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Oh please. You know exactly what I meant without trying to make me look small and yourself ultra-pious.
You just added (-19). You are now being mischievous. Yes, John 17:6-19 are about the apostles ONLY. Then Jesus prays for those who believe their word, but not that they are predestined or given to Jesus by the Father. That only lasts for 4 verses 20-23 and inserted into Jesus' prayer for His apostles. But from 24 on Jesus goes back to His original prayer for His apostles.
All other Christians
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Back to the Apostles
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You GAVE Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
This is VERY IMPORTANT!!! because of the wording about the apostles are special and peculiar only to them. They are the only ones who were GIVEN to Jesus by the FATHER. They are ALSO those who were DRAWN to Jesus by the Father. Another twisting of context in scripture by the church.
Why is this so important? John uses key words and in his gospel, that word is GIVEN in the contest of to Jesus by the FATHER. (John uses another key word in one of his epistles to clarify what he means there that has also been misunderstood by westerners and church Fathers who are not Spirit-lead, thus terribly fallible. That word is "say." It means 'say, but not do.')
This is VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE in John 6, not knowing Semitic writing styles and key words caused a whole false doctrine. See John 6:
John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
You may think verse 40 is about everybody, but the context is the apostles only with the written exception, Judas.
This key word happens again in chapter 10. Can you think of how many false doctrines of men the church fathers have produced that were not John's meaning?
John 10
25 Jesus answered them, (the Pharisees in front of the apostles), “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. (So much for not being able to snatch a Christian out of God's hands, huh?)
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
Because of the character of Judas, he was chosen to be numbered with the apostles to fulfill prophecy.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yes, I realize that's how she meant it, but I still think we need to always give credit to God when His Word is being spoken of.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I appreciate the law you've created for yourself. But you make it very heavy for others to know they must obey your laws or they will be belittled.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
And then... Jesus said this indicating those that choose to not abide in Him are taken away by the Father... all because they chose to not abide in Christ and instead they turned away
John 15:1-6
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Those that don't accept all the Lord says are cherry pickers which is how false doctrine gets started
The fact of the matter is simple... salvation is conditional because God created man in His Own Image which is how and why mankind has free will
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
This was written to Christians.... but satan is desperately seeking to get people to ignore this passage and/or otherwise get them to believe the lie that this was not written to Christians to get them to believe they can live in sin and still be saved.
This is one way we can always spot who the false teachers are.... when they claim even if someone was to live in sin walking after the flesh it's all good they are still saved which is why if Christianity became illegal there wouldn't be enough evidence to get a conviction on most people who claim to be Christians!
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Yes. That is why we cannot take Scriptures out of context and apply them elsewhere than where they were intended. Very few Christians can accept that "no one can snatch them out of God's hand" is ONLY applying to the apostles. The rest of us must continue being conformed to the image of Christ and be like Him. OSAS was based on this misinterpreted Scripture - John 10:28-29
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Speaking of an outside third party forcibly removing them from the Lord.... Judas turned away from the Lord and nobody snatched him out of the Lord's hand. the devil did not forcibly take Judas away from the Lord.
Meaning, Judas was a willing participant in satan's deception and turned away from the Lord and the Lord allowed it because God gave all men free will where anybody could turn away from the Lord and end up lost if that's what they decide to do.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Correct, but Jesus says so about Judas being the exception of those God gave Him. The Father gave Judas to Jesus to fulfill prophecy.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Which in no way proves or indicates that God is the One that caused Judas to turn against Jesus as the calvinists claim.
But then again they claim all evil that happens in the world is not just allowed by God, but God is the One Who caused the evil.
These folks think God and satan are the same guy. Just because the Lord knows what happens before it happens does not mean He's the One causing everything to happen.
Jesus said the Kingdom of God is like a man that casts seed in to the ground (Mark 4:26)
So man is the one planting, not the Lord which is why the world is in the mess it's in.
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