Was the Cross Always Understood?

[quietthinker]

Mat 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Discernment required. Without it we can/ must ask, did Jesus portray a blood thirsty God who trades blood for forgiveness and to push it further, is God really a trader? ...and if so what do we understand 'grace' to mean....unless of course we settle for it meaning the formality of uttering some pious words before we eat.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Hi Before
The Apostles did not put everything that happened together until Paul came on the scene.
He studied the situation for 3 years before going to the Apostles with his findings.

I fight hard on these forums for the very reason you state above.
JESUS did not teach that all we need to do is be born again to go to heaven.
This idea came about with Paul but is in keeping with what Jesus said in John 3:3 and John 3:5
§"we must be born again in order to see the Kingdom of God".

But what Jesus meant by this and what Paul mean by this is certainly not what is taught in some churches today.

However, yes, Jesus is the Savior of everyone as John stated.
"of not us only, but for the whole world."
1 John 2:2

So even though the words did not exist at the time of Noah,,,,,
Jesus is still the Savior of those that required salvation...
those with faith and obedience to God.

So, if you'd care to elaborate on what your thinking....
a person could take your OP to have different meanings.

This is mine.

Good points, but it still remains that the way to that new birth is only through grace by faith, not of works of effort on our part in trying to earn it, lest any man should find a way to boast. The earnest of our salvation is Holy Spirit and the Father would never forfeit Holy Spirit by removing from anyone their rebirth nor salvation. That is the difficulty the loss-of-salvation gang will have to try and explain away, which would be a vain endeavor indeed.

BTW

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

Did God say to Noah, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”?
No—He told Noah: I’m going to flood the earth. Build an ark or you’ll drown.

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Heb. 11:7)

Noah became an heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Faith in what or whom?

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

Discernment required.

"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." (1 Pet. 1:17-21)

Before the foundation of the world, God foreordained that Jesus should redeem sinners with his precious blood.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I don't think of God as angry. However, God must be just. Therefore God must punish sin. That is why Jesus took our punishment so we don't have to bear the punishment for our sins.

We all can rest assured that the wrath of God will indeed be poured out upon this earth in the tribulation. Half of humanity will be dead by the time of His Second Coming because of the wrath of God. The gang that sees only the Lord's love and grace, they really need to remove their blinders to see the panorama of the Lord's dealings with mankind. The flood wasn't a matter of the Lord looking at the world population wriggling a wiggling about in their pursuits of fleshly pleasures and His saying, "I love you all in how you are living your lives," and then WHOOSH! They all be dead except for eight...

The lovey-dovey gang has some serious rethinking to do dare they take a gander at the realities shown to us in scripture.

BTW

 

[quietthinker]

So, tell us...how much of a rat's petoot do you give in relation to what the world thinks about your beliefs? Do you really put any stock in what others think about you and your beliefs? Did you really understand what I even said in the OP above in context? I'm finding your comment difficult to track compared to the context of my post.

BTW

I'm surprised you find my post difficult to track. Not even the disciples understood the crucifixion till after the resurrection and even then Jesus helped them understand the implications (joining the dots) by pressing the flesh with them for another forty days.
The OT prophets wrote of things they didn't understand nor of their implications.

1 Peter 1:10-12 puts it like this...

'Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.'

Shadows and types in the Hebrew worship were enacted for millennia yet they had no clue to what or how the reality was to present.

Now regarding what the world thinks about how I see (my beliefs) it is of no interest to me, that's their business....and yes, I understood your question but now that I hear your reply, I wonder whether you did?

 

[quietthinker]

"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." (1 Pet. 1:17-21)

Before the foundation of the world, God foreordained that Jesus should redeem sinners with his precious blood.

Blood = Life. Blood is the symbol, Life is the reality. Its immense value is derived from the fact that in Jesus' incarnation as a man (and that a man after 4000yrs of degeneration (weakened) of the race) it was a real possibility that Jesus could have succumbed to temptation and failed. (is it even possible to imagine what the implications of failure would have been?)

The risk was indescribably immense (such was the love God had for the fallen race)
Jesus triumphed over sin and Satan and death...on our behalf, so when the scripture speaks of his precious blood, it is tapping into this value.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

so when the scripture speaks of his precious blood, it is tapping into this value

The Bible comes to us in the form of two testaments:

1. The Old Testament.
2. The New Testament.

Here is what the Bible has to say about a testament:

Hebrews chapter 9

[11] But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
[12] Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
[13] For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
[14] How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
[15] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[16] For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
[18] Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
[19] For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
[20] Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
[21] Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
[22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
[23] It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
[24] For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
[25] Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

A testament is of force after men are dead or after the testator dies, and without shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.

Under the Old Testament, animals were killed in order to put that testament into effect, and those animal sacrifices foreshadowed the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), which was to come.

Under the New Covenant, Jesus shed his blood to put that testament into effect, and this was foreordained by God before the foundation of the world.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

Did God say to Noah, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”?
No—He told Noah: I’m going to flood the earth. Build an ark or you’ll drown.

2Pe 2:5
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Noah was a preacher of righteousness.

What type of righteousness did he preach?

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

Did God say to Noah, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”?
No—He told Noah: I’m going to flood the earth. Build an ark or you’ll drown.

Eze 14:14
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 14:20
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

According to the Lord God, what type of righteousness did Noah have before him?

Was it righteousness by faith in Christ, or was it some other form of righteousness?

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

Did God say to Noah, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”?
No—He told Noah: I’m going to flood the earth. Build an ark or you’ll drown.

Gen 7:1
And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Gen 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Gen 8:20
And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Why did the LORD instruct Noah to take seven of every clean beast with him on the ark, and why did Noah ultimately offer them in sacrifice unto the LORD?

Did those sacrifices foreshadow the coming sacrifice of Jesus Christ, or are the two unrelated?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Eze 14:14
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 14:20
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

According to the Lord God, what type of righteousness did Noah have before him?

Was it righteousness by faith in Christ, or was it some other form of righteousness?

You'll have to be more specific, because if you're asking something that leads more to speculative answers as compared to what's actually stated in the text, then that's a discussion of opinion and personal analysis than it is about textual reliance.

BTW

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

You'll have to be more specific, because if you're asking something that leads more to speculative answers as compared to what's actually stated in the text, then that's a discussion of opinion and personal analysis than it is about textual reliance.

My question is specific enough already, and we have plenty of textual reliance by which to properly answer it.

In other words, there is only one form of righteousness that the Lord God recognizes, and that is righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

To your opening question in the title of this thread, "Was the Cross Always Understood?," the need for atonement was always understood. Whether or not everyone understood that the atonement would come by the means of the cross is another question. There certainly were glimpses of the cross in the Old Testament. The serpent on the pole immediately comes to mind (Num. 21:8-9, John 3:14-15), and the psalmist foretold of death by crucifixion in Psalm 22:14-18. We also catch of glimpse of Christ becoming a curse for us on the cross in Deuteronomy 21:22-23 (Gal. 3:13).

 

[Muna]

To your opening question in the title of this thread, "Was the Cross Always Understood?," the need for atonement was always understood. Whether or not everyone understood that the atonement would come by the means of the cross is another question. There certainly were glimpses of the cross in the Old Testament. The serpent on the pole immediately comes to mind (Num. 21:8-9, John 3:14-15), and the psalmist foretold of death by crucifixion in Psalm 22:14-18. We also catch of glimpse of Christ becoming a curse for us on the cross in Deuteronomy 21:22-23 (Gal. 3:13).

Amen, good post! And speaking of which, we might be able to catch another similitude of the cross

Gen 2:22 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

And Abraham went, him seeing before

Gen 22:3 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises , but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly

Similarly here Isaac asks,

Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My Son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

And since the law having shadow of the good things to come and not the very image of things, we see in John

John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

The lamb of God, or as God providing himself a lamb

Romans 8:2 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Shows a similitude of the only begotten Son of God, in the picture of Isaac and Abraham (Gen 22:2) and since Abraham is a prophet God spake by the same using similitudes by them.

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

Amen, good post! And speaking of which, we might be able to catch another similitude of the cross

Gen 2:22 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

And Abraham went, him seeing before

Gen 22:3 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises , but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly

Similarly here Isaac asks,

Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My Son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

And since the law having shadow of the good things to come and not the very image of things, we see in John

John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

The lamb of God, or as God providing himself a lamb

Romans 8:2 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Shows a similitude of the only begotten Son of God, in the picture of Isaac and Abraham (Gen 22:2) and since Abraham is a prophet God spake by the same using similitudes by them.

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Yes, the whole Abraham and Isaac thing points to Christ in more ways than one.

Thanks for adding that.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I'm surprised you find my post difficult to track. Not even the disciples understood the crucifixion till after the resurrection and even then Jesus helped them understand the implications (joining the dots) by pressing the flesh with them for another forty days.
The OT prophets wrote of things they didn't understand nor of their implications.

1 Peter 1:10-12 puts it like this...

'Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.'

Shadows and types in the Hebrew worship were enacted for millennia yet they had no clue to what or how the reality was to present.

Now regarding what the world thinks about how I see (my beliefs) it is of no interest to me, that's their business....and yes, I understood your question but now that I hear your reply, I wonder whether you did?

In a previous post to which I responded, you expressed a measure of caring about what the world thinks about us who follow Christ. The understanding anyone would have is limited by the words you spoke. If there is need for further clarification, then say on. We're listening.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Gen 7:1
And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Gen 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Gen 8:20
And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Why did the LORD instruct Noah to take seven of every clean beast with him on the ark, and why did Noah ultimately offer them in sacrifice unto the LORD?

Did those sacrifices foreshadow the coming sacrifice of Jesus Christ, or are the two unrelated?

I'm Israeli and a very mature follower of Christ of greater stature than what I was as a young man. I'm well aware of the types and shadows of what you all call the OT shadows and types. Perhaps there are those here who don't know the parallels, but I personally am well aware of them. Faith is the one element among all others that transcends all of time and culture, going back to the garden itself. Adam chose to ignore his faith by partaking of what he knew was forbidden.

It was asked on other posts what righteousness was preached by Noah. Well, we know there was Law even then, and so the moral standard of that Law is what Noah would have preached. That Law also existed in the time of Abraham, which is clearly stated by the Lord Himself, which contradicts the beliefs of those who would claim there was no Law before the Law of Moses. They clearly do not know the scriptures as well as they would like to think.

BTW

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

That Law also existed in the time of Abraham, which is clearly stated by the Lord Himself, which contradicts the beliefs of those who would claim there was no Law before the Law of Moses.

May I ask what you are referring to in the bold-faced part?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

May I ask what you are referring to in the bold-faced part?

Yes. This is some really good stuff that, when I learned of it, somehow enlarged my pleasure in the Lord to know more of Him and how He operated and operates through time.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Far too many people assume there was no Law, commandments nor statutes before Moses penned them. They fail to understand the role that the angelic messengers played in the lives of the ancients that is not all revealed in scripture. They will say that I am assuming all this, but given a systematic study of scripture, what I stated emerges by itself.

Remember...

1 John 2:26-27
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Dearest one, I hope this blesses you as much as it has myself.

BTW