Only the Apostles were Predestined

[Ronald Nolette]

Correct, conformed into the image of Jesus. We take on all of his characteristics. The point is, the only PEOPLE that were predestined were the Apostles out of the nation of Israel.

As for Matthias where did Jesus choose him. By the straw that was left? Jesus chose Paul.

No we are all chosen (predestined) before eh earth was formed.

Ephesians 1

King James Version

​

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Paul is speaking about the Ephesians, not just the 12.

The church was given authority to bind and loose. They bound Matthais to the Apostleship! We can argue all we want about was Paul supposed to be the replacemant for Judas, but Matthias was chosen.

 

[Earburner]

No we are all chosen (predestined) before eh earth was formed.

Ephesians 1​

​

King James Version​

​

​

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Paul is speaking about the Ephesians, not just the 12.

The church was given authority to bind and loose. They bound Matthais to the Apostleship! We can argue all we want about was Paul supposed to be the replacemant for Judas, but Matthias was chosen.

Matthias was chosen by the will of man. The impulsive Peter ram rodded the whole thing of proposing only two candidates. Of course it was a 50/50 crap shoot that only one was going to win. And so it was Matthias.
By the way, there is no historical writing of him, except that he wound up on an island of cannibals, and probably ended up to be on their menu.

No, Matthias was not God's choice by the hand of Peter, but Saul who became Paul by God's choice, most surely was!!
Please see my post #78 and 80.

 

[David in NJ]

Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Then in John 17 we see that in Jesus' prayer for the Apostles, those the Father gives to the Son were the apostles.

In John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." Farther down in John 6 we see there were many who did not follow Jesus any more, so they were snatched from the Father's hand, but not the apostles.

Another misused verse is in John 10. Here again it is the Father giving to the Son, thus referring to the Apostles.
John 20:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.

Your conclusion is not Gospel Truth.

We are not apostles, nor were we called to be apostles.

All who are SAVED are Called by the FATHER unto Christ = SAME as the apostles were = we are Disciples of Christ

Please go back and read Ephesians again and the Gospel of John and 1st & 2nd Peter

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Eph. 1
[5] Having predestinated [G4309-predetermined] us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated [predetermined] according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Actually, the correct word to describe any and all believers, is the word "foreknown" by God's ability to have foreknowledge about the future and what He purposed to do FOR THAT future.

Q. What did God purpose to do?
A. He purposed to ADOPT children by Jesus to Himself.
Therefore, God only has foreknowledge of us.
However, what he "purposed", was the act of "adoption". It was that act of "adoption of children" that was predetermined [predestinated].

Who that is referring to are the apostles. Read verse 12.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Your conclusion is not Gospel Truth.

We are not apostles, nor were we called to be apostles.

All who are SAVED are Called by the FATHER unto Christ = SAME as the apostles were = we are Disciples of Christ

Please go back and read Ephesians again and the Gospel of John and 1st & 2nd Peter

Read Ephesians 1 very slowly. Verse 12 tells you who was being predestined. Verse 13 are those who listen to them and believe what the apostles said.

 

[pandaflower]

Who are the elect of God? | GotQuestions.org

Who are the elect of God? Does God predestine who will be saved? Is God’s election based on His foreknowledge of who will believe?

www.gotquestions.org

Ephesians 1:5 tells us that God “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.” According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on God. This predetermination is based on His sovereignty, unchanging character (Malachi 3:6), foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 11:2), love (Ephesians 1:4-5), and plan and pleasure (Ephesians 1:5). God’s desire is that all would be saved and come to repentance (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9). He offers salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) and has made Himself plain to everyone so that everyone is without excuse (Romans 1:19-20).

 

[David in NJ]

Who that is referring to are the apostles. Read verse 12.

Read Ephesians 1 very slowly. Verse 12 tells you who was being predestined. Verse 13 are those who listen to them and believe what the apostles said.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved.

Who is this speaking of???

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved.

Who is this speaking of???

Read it slower. It is in three sections. The first is who this epistle is to. The second is Paul telling of his authority with the other apostles WHO WERE THE FIRST TO BELIEVE. Then in 13 back to the Ephesians.

David, who were the first to believe?

 

[pandaflower]

Throughout Romans 9, Paul systematically shows that God’s sovereign election has been in force from the very beginning. He begins with a crucial statement: “For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel” (Romans 9:6). This means that not all people of ethnic Israel (that is, those descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) belong to true Israel (the elect of God). Reviewing the history of Israel, Paul shows that God chose Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. Just in case anyone thinks that God was choosing these individuals based on the faith or good works they would do in the future, he adds, “Though they [Jacob and Esau] were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” (Romans 9:11, ESV).

Who are the elect of God? | GotQuestions.org

Who are the elect of God? Does God predestine who will be saved? Is God’s election based on His foreknowledge of who will believe?

www.gotquestions.org

The Disciples were the first to be chosen as God's Elect.
They were not the only ones.

John 6 from the 'Amplified Bible' translation freely available online!

After this, Jesus went to the other side of the Sea of Galilee (or Sea of Tiberias). A large crowd was following Him because they had seen the signs (attesting

www.studylight.org

John 6 Amplified Version
44.No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him [giving him the desire to come to Me]; and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.

 

[Earburner]

Who that is referring to are the apostles. Read verse 12.

I might agree with that but only figuratively/spiritually.

It is true that the 12 Apostles are the foundations of the church.
Rev. 21[14] And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

But even in that we must realize that God is speaking figuratively here also, because God does not live within buildings, but rather within His people.
Heb. 11:9-10 is not about the Jews, but rather Christ dwelling within us.
[9] By faith he [Abraham] sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles** with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
[10] For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

**Note: tabernacles were temporary tents/shelters, which is symbolic of Christ dwelling within our temporary mortal bodies.

 

[David in NJ]

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved.

Who is this speaking of???

Paul ties together that the SAME salvation is for we, us, who believe

Those who were first to believe are now part of ALL who believe


1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory.

13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Eph. 1
[5] Having predestinated [G4309-predetermined] us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated [predetermined] according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Actually, the correct word to describe any and all believers, is the word "foreknown" by God's ability to have foreknowledge about the future and what He purposed to do FOR THAT future.

Q. What did God purpose to do?
A. He purposed to ADOPT children by Jesus to Himself.
Therefore, God only has foreknowledge of us.
However, what he "purposed", was the act of "adoption". It was that act of "adoption of children" that was predetermined [predestinated].

this is incorrect as even a cursory look at the verse shows. It says "Haying predestined US, not having predestined to adopt children. we are predestined to be adopted. It cannot be read correctly any other way.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Matthias was chosen by the will of man. The impulsive Peter ram rodded the whole thing of proposing only two candidates. Of course it was a 50/50 crap shoot that only one was going to win. And so it was Matthias.
By the way, there is no historical writing of him, except that he wound up on an island of cannibals, and probably ended up to be on their menu.

No, Matthias was not God's choice by the hand of Peter, but Saul who became Paul by God's choice, most surely was!!
Please see my post #78 and 80.

Well that is your allegation. and your proof that Matthias was not an Apostle by god is.....?

 

[Earburner]

this is incorrect as even a cursory look at the verse shows. It says "Haying predestined US, not having predestined to adopt children. we are predestined to be adopted. It cannot be read correctly any other way.

In the mind of God, he [predetermined] [planned in advance] for us to be adopted unto Himself. Therefore His PLAN to adopt us was predestinated, not that each of us were predestinated!!

 

[Earburner]

Well that is your allegation. and your proof that Matthias was not an Apostle by god is.....?

If Matthias was anything, he was nothing more than a religionist.
As for Peter, he was well known for his impetuous behavior.
Are you saying that Paul is the 13th Apostle,...
or could it be that God wanted it to be Paul all along to be the12th, but Peter couldn't wait for God's choice, so instead Peter rigged up a "shell game" and made the decision for Him.

By Paul's testimony of the Lord Jesus visiting him on the road to Damascus, I am sure that Paul was God's choice to replace Judas Iscariot.
Paul wrote 13 letters of the NT Bible. Matthias wrote none!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In the mind of God, he [predetermined] [planned in advance] for us to be adopted unto Himself. Therefore His PLAN to adopt us was predestinated, not that each of us were predestinated!!

That is no0t what the bible says. Grammatically (and God is perfect in grammar) it says we are predestined. and to what are WE predestined to? To be adopted as sons! also WE were selected before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If Matthias was anything, he was nothing more than a religionist.
As for Peter, he was well known for his impetuous behavior.
Are you saying that Paul is the 13th Apostle,...
or could it be that God wanted it to be Paul all along to be the12th, but Peter couldn't wait for God's choice, so instead Peter rigged up a "shell game" and made the decision for Him.

By Paul's testimony of the Lord Jesus visiting him on the road to Damascus, I am sure that Paul was God's choice to replace Judas Iscariot.
Paul wrote 13 letters of the NT Bible. Matthias wrote none!

And you know this about Matthias how???
If Peter was impetuous, maybe Paul was supposed to replace him for being too impetuous.

It may be God wanted Paul all along, but that is not what Scripture says and I will not seek to contradict Scripture to uphold my opinion.

And what makes you so sure Paul was Judas replacement. Matthias was appointed an Apostle and Paul was appointed an Apostle what other biblical evidence do you have.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.

is it your understanding that they are the little flock Luke 12:32

 

[1stCenturyLady]

is it your understanding that they are the little flock Luke 12:32

According to verse 22 He was speaking to His apostles. However, He also said some of that in the Sermon on the Mount to everyone. I know I live by it.

 

[pandaflower]

Does anyone else think it a weird thing that Christian s would insist they weren't predestined by God to find him?

Especially since Jesus tells us,no one can come to him unless the father leads them.