Is it possible to lose salvation?

[Eternally Grateful]

I wouldn't say zilch, though, as it forms our character, produces God's work in this world, hopefully bringing others into the kingdom, or strenthening them there. And in the age to come, glory and honor and who knows?

Much love!

I meant as far as getting oneself saved

As a believer. we have many rewards. including those you mentioned AMEN

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OR
you could begin to understand what you're reading.

lol. I understand what I am reading

EG
I've replied to the below AT LEAST two times.

You don't LIKE my reply.

Let's try again:

Why do you have "no works" in parenthesis??
I asked you what BELIEVE means.
Been asking you for about 10 years now.

I have it. because in each post. no works are required. In some. it even said specifically. no works..

why do you deny it

You asking me what belief means is not you showing me where or what works are required. Its you trying to push the truth to the side and make it appear your answering

Believe means to be taught by, to follow, to learn from.

No. It does not mean this

it means to have a confident assurance. to have a trust. To have faith (at least the faith that saves0 and it is not based on blind faith. it is based on evidence.

John is telling us to BELIEVE in Jesus.

He is telling us to receive what Jesus has to offer in faith.

have you done this?

Not in our mind, like the demons, but in our heart....
so we ACT on Jesus' words. Matthew 7:24 the wise man ACTS on the words of Jesus.

Yes we act. By RECIEVING HIS OFFER OF ETERNAL LIFE.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. recieve his truth and his words. Even peter said, we know you have the words of eternal life.. so why do you not believe it

So are you telling me Jesus and John and Paul taught that we are NOT to learn from Jesus?

No. I just ask you to show me one work that paul and jesus said we must do. And once again, you are not giving me any works that are required. yett telling me you are answering my question

What did John teach?... The very John you've posted above:

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


1 John 3:7
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

Yes. this is DESCRIPTIVE of those who are saved. Not PRESCRIPTIVE of what one has to do to get saved or stay saved.

1 John 2:3-6
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever * keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

All of the above verses require good works.

Again, These are descriptive not prescriptive. and every verse I gave contradicts your interpretation of these two passages you just shared. You have a bible that does not agree with itself. and jesus contradicting himself

Please note that BELIEVE is in the present tense.
Please note that the word BELIEVE is used again.
Remember that BELIEVE means something specific in the language of that time.
§Which I've explained above.

Here are some more verses on doing good works:

Hebrews 13:16
16Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

James 2:26
26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.


John 5:28-29 Jesus said:
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


There are many more.
How many do you need?

Do you think Jesus was not a good communicator?

He's trying to teach how to PLEASE GOD.

You can not please god UNTIL YOU ARE SAVED.

once again, You have failed to respond. you keep posting all these passage that contradict the passages I showed.

What are you so afraid of?

Excuse me EG.
YOU don't see works anywhere.
And I just posted 4 or 5 verses and there's pages more.

You posted 4 or 5 works that tell us what Gods children does. Not HOW to become Gods children.

so excuse me MAAM, but you are being deceptive!!!!

Jesus said WHOEVER DRINKS...
Not
WHOEVER DRANK.

We must keep on believing...
We must keep on drinking.

Jesus said those who drink will NEVER HUNGER.

If you can still hunger, JESUS LIED.

what is drinking? It is HEARING THE WORD. that BRINGS US TO FAITH.

Paul taught that it's possible to fall away from the faith.
THIS is why everything is in the present tense.

Yes we can fall away from grace having never been saved by it

We can not fall away from eternal life.

God gave us a promise. just like he gave abraham. I WILL

He did not say I WILL IF YOU DO

Jesus taught that it's possible to fall away from the faith.
THIS is why everything is in the present tense.

show this in the verses I gave you why do you continually ignore those verses?

See above.

You will NOT find any verse that teaches that good works are not necessary/required.
Jesus spent over 3 years teaching good works.

I just gave you how many verses. many of specifically said NOT OF WORK? Or NOT BY WORKS?

What do you think He taught for 3 years?
HOW to be a part of the Kingdom of God.

By becoming poor in spirit. and being born again

when will you do this?

page 1 of 2

lol. I hope you actually look at the verses.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

page 2 of 2



Same.
All your verses are the same.

yes they are. Recieve what I came to offer in faith. and you will never die. never hunger never thirst. live forever. Not be judged. Have eternal life. and be raised on the last day.

NO WORK INVOLVED

BELIEVE is the key word.
If you come to understand what BELIEVE means...
you'll never think the same again.

I showed you what it means

Your faith is in your works. not jesus.

BELIEVE
PRESENT TENSE
JESUS WILL NEVER cast anyone out....
unless, of course, they wish to leave on their own.

lol. No one saved by him and who has truly experienced his love would ever desire to leave.

This just shows me I question you have ever truly met him, because if you have, you would never even think such a thing

Luke 8:13 Jesus taught that one could believe FOR A WHILE:
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

JESUS said. They believe for A WHILE and fall away in times of temptation.

I don't think it's a good idea to change the words of Christ.


All your verses are the same.
For instance Titus 3:4 not by works of righteousness but through His mercy.

1. This is a clear conflict with 1 John 3:7
Do you suppose that John and Paul didn't agree?

Also, I think you skipped the following verses in the very letter you quoted:

Titus 2:7, 10, 12
7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified,

10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.

12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.


How to reconcile with your verse Titus 3:4?
You'll have to do this or live with a conflicted New Testament.

Also, Titus 1:2 speaks of a HOPE of salvation.

We will be receiving salvation at the end of our life.

1 Peter 1:6-9
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.



Matthew 24.13 Jesus said.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


The NT is full of warnings about loss of salvation due to disobedience or apostacy.
If falling from the faith were impossible...
no warnings would be necessary.


Romans 11:
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

ok once again,. You failed to address my passages. and will now pump your chest and claim you responded.

Once again, you show your faith is in self and all your works. and Not Christ and his work

he even said, it is the work of God we believe. When we trust Jesus we trust because of the work he did. If we reject. we reject the work he did.

your trying to replace his works with your works.

Good luck

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You believe in OSAS.

I believe in the promise of God

that just as moses lifted the serpent. so to must the son of man be lifted up. that whoever believes in him WILL NEVER DIE. and THEY WILL LIVE FOREVER.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe remains condemned.

Also. He who sees and believes has passed from life to death and shall not come to judgment

Also. He who sees and believed will NEVER BE LOST

I believe Paul.. to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.

if you want to call that OSAS. feel free.

to me your arguing against calvin theology. and are unable to see beyond this

THIS is not a biblical doctrine.

whatever

It was NEVER part of the teaching of the early church.
Teachings that have come about 1,800 years after the ascension of Christ are not biblical teachings.

Yet you do. you reject the teachings of Jesus, of peter of James and of pau. (they were the early church. not the roman paganized church you can not get away from )

If you studied some church history you'd know the above.

I study the word maam.. History can never be trusted because those who rule write history.

I study the word. I am told all scripture is God breathed able to make the man of God perfect.

Why would I risk making the same mistake as the jew?

I guess that does not matter to you

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Yep. thats what the early church did. we are still suffering from it today.

the words of men become more important that the words of God.

lets throw our bible out. we do not need it.. Just blindly follow men who call themself the church

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly, the gnostics brought it in with the help of the devil.

the gnostics were around when John was writting his epistles and the book of revelation.

You should study biblical history some

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Love of the flesh.

That's not of Christ.
It's shocking to witness how many enemies of the gospel there are.

Yes you hit it

they want credit. they want glory. they want to be lifted up because of how great they are (they think they are)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When you don't understand the gospel,you don't know anything related to its covenant.

The more you and others promote works redemption,the more you demonstrate that very thing.

We don't work to stay secure in Christ.

Paul called the Galatian church fools for thinking they begin in the spirit (faith) but must perfect (complete) themselves in the flesh (works)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I've arrived at the conclusion here that Jesus did during his encounter with people.

Not everyone who says Lord,Lord, are his.

Actually a great verse.

You can tell.

are people promoting christ or their works?

if they are promoting their works.. well what did Jesus say to these people promoting their works?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I can see you will not listen, so I will leave you be. The Gospels are the words of Christ—He is the only one who can save you or any of us. Listen to the Master first and above all else.

He said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish” (John 10:27–28). He will not let you down, but you must listen to Him and do what He asks. His commandments are not a burden—they are a blessing.

But when you reject His words and follow another gospel, be careful. Jesus said, “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day” (John 12:48). And to the faithful, He gave this warning: “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life” (Revelation 3:5). So yes, it is possible for a name to be blotted out.

We are not saved by theories or by twisting Scripture—we are saved by hearing and doing the words of Jesus.

when will you listen to him

You use the nic you love Yeshua.. yet you love him the way the sanhedrin did in Jesus day. thinking you are promoting him and his word. while rejecting him and sending him to his death

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They don't know the word of God. They don't respect the words of God. Which is how they and others here write their own worldly doctrine that deifies the flesh.

she proved that by refusing to look at the many verses I gave.

They use that as a launch pad to condemn actual scripture by insisting their fiction is what Jesus actually said.

And grace is not very adept in reading comprehension.
I didn't damn them.

I'm thinking we are dealing with very young children. Maybe their parents drag them to church. And they hate that. So to get back at their folks they bad mouth their faith anonymously online.

Someone who denies Jesus teachings as written does not love Yeshua.

I believe they are sadly indoctrinated. while promoting history. while at same time, trying to attack a doctrine most of us do not like. so they can not even understand what we are saying

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What ?!

Making OSAS a salvation issue ?

it is a salvation issue.

one teaches salvation by Grace through faith (not works)

one teaches salvation by faith plus works (no grace involved)

there is only one gospel. anyone who teaches another. what did paul say?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'll add this.

Hebrews 6:4-12
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

IF THEY FALL AWAY

it does not say they can or they will

and what is the answer. they can never be renewed. ie. if salvation can be lost. it can not be renewed. your lost forever.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I am not ashamed.

James 2:14-18
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Matthew 7:16-20
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

John 15:4-6
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 John 2:4
If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Matthew 3:8-10
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Isaiah 1:18-20
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Luke 13:1-5
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Ezekiel 18:29:32
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Revelation 3:19-20
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Mark 6:10-12
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke 3:3-11
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

another person who uses descripive passages and twists them to prescripive

God said he will save us completely. and change us, for good works.

do you not Believe God will change those he saves?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is funny, you say true what @LoveYeshua said :




No, no, no, that's not true, not what @GodsGrace and @LoveYeshua are saying and me neither.

Grace through Jesus Christ -> Faith -> Repentance (saved) -> Fruits -> Endurance -> Death -> Eternal Life

You have this way out of whack

first of. If you have not yet repented, you will never have faith. you will remain in unbelief. and remain condemned

so the worder would be first Off grace offered

then we have repentence - faith

then we have salvation. which includes eternal life.

THEN we have fruits. then we have eternity after the ressurection and rewards

so the correct order would be

Grace -> repentence -> faith -> salvation (includes eternal life) -> fruit -> rewards

endurance is not anything, we are kept by the power of God. and Jesus said come he will give us rest.

When we repent and born again we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit and become the new man, a new creation and the Holy Spirit will convince us of sin,

Calvinist?

we start to change, produce fruit. As long as we abide in Christ and don't start to : And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption as a habit we remain saved.

So your not calvinist. what denomination do you fall under. I have never heard this before.

Hebr 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Hebr 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hebr 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Hebr 6:7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
Hebr 6:8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
Hebr 6:9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.
Hebr 6:10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.
Hebr 6:11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end,
Hebr 6:12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Spoken to believers as verse 10 confirms : as you still do.

I have little doubt that all who participate in this thread are saved and will endure till the end, but it is not a done deal yet, verse 4-6 is not a theoretical impossibility. It happens. Just pray to the Lord He will keep you from falling.

I have doubts many are saved. because they promote self not christ and all their works..

And again, we do not endure. God keeps us..

 

[LoveYeshua]

when will you listen to him

You use the nic you love Yeshua.. yet you love him the way the sanhedrin did in Jesus day. thinking you are promoting him and his word. while rejecting him and sending him to his deat

you realize that the sahnedrin hated Jesus and put him to death? they did not Love Jesus because jesus rebuked them severely about their faulty evil application of the commandments and said he is the son of God one with God and they did not believe him.

so if I understand correctly you accuse me of teaching to people the the words of Christ when he said, "if you love Me keep my commandments"?

Are you one of those who have been deceived in thinking the ten commandments are abolished? is this what you are saying here?

Prove I rejected Jesus or say nothing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

you realize that the sahnedrin hated Jesus and put him to death? they did not Love Jesus because jesus rebuked them severely about their faulty evil application of the commandments and said he is the son of God one with God and they did not believe him.

No they put Jesus to death because he rebuked their self righteousness. He tried to show them they needed him to be saved, but they thought they were ok with god because they kept Gods laws and did all the works they did

so if I understand correctly you accuse me of teaching to people the the words of Christ when he said, "if you love Me keep my commandments"?

No. I accuse me of teaching people MUST do that to get saved. this would put them under law. Not under grace. and make you just like the jew who crucified Christ

Are you one of those who have been deceived in thinking the ten commandments are abolished? is this what you are saying here?

The penalty of not keeping them is abolished. thats what we are saved from

if we break them we are still sinning. But we do not keep them by trying to follow them. Jesus explained this clearly by telling us the law says this, but I tell you.

The law was given to accuse you an probe how unrighteous you are, and lead you to him, not show you how to be righteous.

Thats the new covenant. we keep Gods commands by following the law of love or seeking after things of the spirit.

Prove I rejected Jesus or say nothing.

I already did.

Your focused on self. and how good you think you are. you are like the pharisee pumping your chest.. Who went home justified. the one who THINKS he kept the law. or the one who became poor in spirit and fell on his knees crying out.

 

[LoveYeshua]

No they put Jesus to death because he rebuked their self righteousness. He tried to show them they needed him to be saved, but they thought they were ok with god because they kept Gods laws and did all the works they did

No. I accuse me of teaching people MUST do that to get saved. this would put them under law. Not under grace. and make you just like the jew who crucified Christ

The penalty of not keeping them is abolished. thats what we are saved from

if we break them we are still sinning. But we do not keep them by trying to follow them. Jesus explained this clearly by telling us the law says this, but I tell you.

The law was given to accuse you an probe how unrighteous you are, and lead you to him, not show you how to be righteous.

Thats the new covenant. we keep Gods commands by following the law of love or seeking after things of the spirit.



I already did.

Your focused on self. and how good you think you are. you are like the pharisee pumping your chest.. Who went home justified. the one who THINKS he kept the law. or the one who became poor in spirit and fell on his knees crying out.

untrue all of it. you teach contrary to Christ but do not see it so I let you go, hoping you will wake up one day.

 

[pandaflower]

IF THEY FALL AWAY

it does not say they can or they will

and what is the answer. they can never be renewed. ie. if salvation can be lost. it can not be renewed. your lost forever.

I am not ashamed.

another person who uses descripive passages and twists them to prescripive

God said he will save us completely. and change us, for good works.

do you not Believe God will change those he saves?

I see that passage as reiterating eternal security. Emphasis on eternal.

If someone falls out of faith,lose faith,and they then are no longer saved,then they were never eternally irrevocably saved. Which is contrary to God's words.

If that were actually the case though,then should they come back to Jesus it would be like having to crucify him all over again so to again save that repentant backslider.

 

[pandaflower]

I'll add this.

Hebrews 6:4-12
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.





2 Timothy 2:15
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

James 2:14-18
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Matthew 7:16-20
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

John 15:4-6
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 John 2:4
If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Matthew 3:8-10
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Isaiah 1:18-20
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Luke 13:1-5
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Ezekiel 18:29:32
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Revelation 3:19-20
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Mark 6:10-12
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke 3:3-11
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

That's a lot of pasted scripture.

 

[marks]

IF THEY FALL AWAY

it does not say they can or they will

It doesn't say they were regenerated either. The people described are those who were there for Jesus' ministry. The Pharisees who saw everything and rejected Him. The 70 disciples sent out to heal and cast out and preach. All those who were healed by Jesus, who heard Him teach.

Much love!

 

[Kokyu]

Hi Kokyu
I see you found some versions that use the word SHOULD for Romans 7:4.

Incredible, isn't it?
We could make the bible state whatever we want it to state....

I'm not trying to make the Bible state whatever I want it to state. I offered examples of "should's" to Christians in the NT only because you claimed there were none.

So, do you believe that by using the word SHOULD, which is an old English way of saying that we must,
Paul is giving us a choice of obeying or not...
doing good or not?

Then what did Paul mean here:
Romans 1:5
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,


What do YOU believe the obedience of faith is?
What did Paul mean?

"Should" isn't the same as saying "will." I don't recall Paul ever writing, "You will do thus-and-so," as though it was a foregone conclusion that his readers would do exactly as he said they should do. There are, though, many instances in his various letters to the Early Church, where Paul tells his readers what they ought to do and how they ought to think, correcting their bad behaviour and erroneous spiritual understanding.

As I've said many times now, the child of God ought to obey their heavenly Father and if they don't, they are guilty of rebellion toward Him and sin. But all throughout the NT, Paul is addressing this very sort of believer, both criticizing them and confirming their membership in God's family and kingdom. In this thread, I've already cited from the NT many examples, so I won't do so again.

Romans 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


Do you believe Paul is making conflicting statements?

No, as I've already explained to you in this thread, Paul was speaking to a particular sort of person in Romans 2: The hypocritical, law-keeping Jew, operating under the Old Covenant. His words to these Jews addressed them according to the Old Covenant standard under which they were living.

Romans 2:3-5
3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Romans 2:12
12 ...as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

Romans 2:17-20
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,
18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law.

Romans 2:23-24
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.

As one reads through the chapter, it is evident that Paul is not addressing Christians, giving to them instruction as to how they ought to live as people under the New Covenant. Your prooftext from the beginning of the chapter, then, is wrongly applied to those within the New Covenant.

If you really need to discuss the word SHOULD as it is meant in Romans 7:4,,,,
I'll be happy to do so.

??? You were the one who brought up this matter, making a false claim about the word in the NT, not me. Do you want to discuss it further?

Perhaps Jesus was wrong when He taught:

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

As I've already pointed out a couple of times in this thread now, the Sermon on the Mount was not addressed to born-again believers about how to live as such. It was a sermon to Jews still under the Old Covenant, addressing them within this context. And so, there is not one word by Jesus about his sacrificial atonement, about the indwelling Holy Spirit, about redemption, justification or sanctification in himself, or about the New Covenant within in which all may come "boldly unto the throne of grace." Instead, Jesus sets forth an impossible standard of conduct that his audience could not achieve on their own. Repeatedly, Jesus says, "You have heard..., but I say unto you...." each time "raising the bar," so to speak, on what God demanded of those who would be members in His eternal, heavenly kingdom. Finally, Jesus says, "Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). All of this was to pave the way for the "new and living way" Christ would establish through his sacrificial saving work on the cross, a way that had nothing to do with a person's good works but with himself and his own divine perfection (He. 7-10:22; 2 Co. 5:21; Col. 1:19-22).

So, no, Jesus wasn't wrong in his statements in his Sermon on the Mount. You are wrong in applying them to post-Calvary, spiritually-regenerate Christians who are no longer under the law of Moses.