No way home

[Matthias]

But we'll never be like Jesus. He was a divine being. We are but mortals.

I’ve been speaking at some length in another thread about his immortality plan for mortals.

You're dodging the question. I asked you first.

I’m not dodging your question. I’m showing you that there are two sides of the coin.

By upholding the idea of free will. Of choice. For example, why can't non-believers also go to heaven?

No one is going to heaven.

I mean, my goodness. Since when is disbelief a crime worthy of eternal punishment or permanent death?

From the foundation of the earth.

At the very least, I think God should just leave these people alone.

He let’s them go their way, and to reap what they sow.

There's no need to punish them. He's God.

They are in a state of rebellion. He’s a God of justice.

Create a realm where the non-believers can live in peace.

Non-believers don’t live in peace. They live in rebellion against their creator.

There is a place reserved for them. They don’t want God in their lived and God is everywhere that exists. The place reserved for them can only be one place -> non-existence.

 

[Riven]

I’m not dodging your question. I’m showing you that there are two sides of the coin.

The obsession with impurity is the default state of humanity. Which is why many become radicalized over purity. It's where the term purity spiraling comes from.

No one is going to heaven.

So you say. But many Christians disagree with you. This agnostic remains firmly in the "I don't know" camp. That being said, Jesus did tell the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise this day. I would argue that's pretty strong evidence in favor of people going to heaven after death.

Non-believers don’t live in peace. They live in rebellion against their creator.

There is a place reserved for them. They don’t want God in their lived and God is everywhere that exists. The place reserved for them can only be one place -> non-existence.

Well, I guess that's better than eternal torture.

 

[Matthias]

The obsession with impurity is the default state of humanity. Which is why many become radicalized over purity. It's where the term purity spiraling comes from.

Humanity in rebellion against the creator revels in impurity.

So you say. But many Christians disagree with you.

If I say “It’s another great day on God’s good earth” - which anyone who knows me could tell you is a standard greeting that I use - many Christians will disagree with me.

It doesn’t matter how many agree or disagree with me.

This agnostic remains firmly in the "I don't know" camp.

The Messiah is in the “I know” camp.

That being said, Jesus did tell the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise this day. I would argue that's pretty strong evidence in favor of people going to heaven after death.

He didn’t. Even an agnostic who has done nothing more than skimmed the Bible should know that Jesus was in the tomb, not paradise, the entire time he was dead. Bodily resurrection is the biblical prescription for the dead to be made alive again. Exhibit A -> Jesus of Nazareth.

Well, I guess that's better than eternal torture.

One is in keeping with his character, the other is in keeping with the devil’s character.

 

[Riven]

He didn’t. Even an agnostic who has done nothing more than skimmed the Bible should know that Jesus was in the tomb, not paradise, the entire time he was dead. Bodily resurrection is the biblical prescription for the dead to be made alive again. Exhibit A -> Jesus of Nazareth.

It has been my understanding that Christ's soul descended to hades, or Sheol, for three days after dying on the cross.

 

[Matthias]

It has been my understanding that Christ's soul descended to hades, or Sheol, for three days after dying on the cross.

Messiah is a soul; a human person. He was a living soul. He was a dead soul. He became a living soul again.

The tomb he was in is the grave, the place of the dead; Hades (Gk.) / Sheol (Heb.). The grave isn’t paradise. It never was and it never will be. Paradise was the Garden of Eden, a location on the earth. Paradise in the future is the restored earth, not heaven.

The same is the case with the thief on the cross when he died. Neither of them went to paradise that day. The Messiah was bodily resurrected from the grave. The thief is still in the grave, waiting to be bodily resurrected.

 

[Matthias]

“Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered, ‘Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.’ But he answered them, ‘An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign but no sign will be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.’”

(Matthew 12:38-40, WEB)

Jesus is the Son of Man @Riven.

I will be in paradise for three days and three nights? No.

I will be in the “heart of the earth” - an idiom for the grave - hades / sheol.

If he was anywhere else besides the grave then he is a false prophet. This is why it was so important to the unbelieving Jewish religious authorities to have a Roman guard stationed at the tomb. If the dead man didn’t come out of the tomb alive then his sect was finished - as dead as he was.

Everything rides on what happens at the Messiah’s grave.

 

[Brakelite]

At the very least, I think God should just leave these people alone. There's no need to punish them. He's God. Create a realm where the non-believers can live in peace.

God gave mankind an opportunity to turn away from sin and embrace God's plan of restoration. Just as God gave Lucifer an opportunity to prove his theories worked by giving him the earth to live out his theories of better government. Man's refusal to surrender to God's purposes, and the unworkable theories of Satan/Lucifer, had resulted in this planet becoming one vast war cemetery. And that despite the presence of Christians who when doing stuff right, present amicable and workable alternative options.
Your suggestion would result in instant chaos and eventually, after a few centuries of suffering, pain, and ugly, at-all-cost self-preservation and a world of violent self destruction. God's judgement upon sin when He comes...destruction... Is an act of mercy, saving mankind from centuries, possibly millennia, of suffering.
The French Revolution gives us a definitive picture of a world devoid of religion. They murdered thousands of Christians of all persuasions, closed churches, expelled religionists from the nation, banned and burnt all the Bibles they could find. The French tolerated the chaos and impurity and licentiousness and violence for 3 and a half years before inviting the churches back.