WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[GodsGrace]

agree. That is all I’m suggesting is that i don’t think Jesus was praising there is only a few that find it. If it’s not a good thing that only a few find it …I wonder why few find it? We sing songs of “this little light of mine, I’m going to let it shine.”

Agreed. Jesus wept over Jerusalem. Jesus would want that all be saved...just as we read in 1 Timothy 2:4...God desires that all be saved and come to the knowledge of Him.

Yes m'am...we let our little light shine,,,
but how many that see it will actually respond?

Someone mentioned the parable of the sower and the seed. There is that which is withered from lack of water. The word speaks of those who plant and those who water. 1 Corinthians 3:7-9 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. [8] He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. [9] For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

So happy that you understand 1 Cor 3:7-9
I'm afraid many don't quite grasp the meaning of these verses.
We are God's fellow workers to build that building....
We are to follow in the footsteps of Paul...
sow, plant, water --- whatever is necessary for whatever point anyone is at....
Yes. §We are God's fellow workers,,,,the harvest is ready, but the workers are few...
so we do our best.

Since God gives the increase…yet there is only a few which are given increase…yet that there are only a few is not good…then what is preventing that there be only a few, and NOT many made rich towards God? Greed? Envy? lust?
Jesus healed the hand which was withered —-saying stretch out your hand—Jesus making it whole like the other. Who got angry that Jesus healed the man whose hand had withered? The religious leaders. It was always the religious leaders mad, like when he rescued one fallen into a pit. It wasn’t the ones who didn’t know God, but those who claimed to be experts on God who got angry that the withered was restored whole like the other hand, or the one fallen into a pit was lifted out of the pit.

You bring up good points.
It should certainly be those of God that teach the healing of God's hand.
But they're human just like all of us - although we should hold them to a higher standard...just like Paul taught Timothy and the qualifications of an elder.


I think envy must be a part of it.

As to the rest of us.....
I think many don't believe God even exists.
And for many that do, they think He's just too demanding...
they see God as a strict parent that they'd rather not have around so they could do whatever they want to.

How about a girl a know (50 plus years old) whose husband left her for someone else.
She always went to church and spoke nicely of God. Seemed to be a believer, or at least she said so.
Now, she's living with someone.
I can't judge.
I haven't lived her experience.
But I do say that we can fall away from our faith and God.
OTOH,,,she didn't leave him...he left her.
Complicated topic.

The sower and the seed speaks of the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy …fowls come along and devour (eat up) and steal the seed planted in hearts. When God instructs to steal no more, what is He saying to stop stealing from your neighbor? You already mentioned the focus should not be on possessions but the more important and needed reconciliation unto God.
Paul spoke of a brother whom was weak and without the knowledge that he (Paul) has, saying if he harmed his brother, then he (Paul) sinned against Christ.

Point is, if God doesn’t desire only a few find it….
Who is it that desires a few find it?
I personally think it’s those who keep asserting there is few that find it. Yet They say they have found it.

Those that assert that few find God are not the ones keeping them from finding God.
We each have a mind of our own and God has made Himself be known to mankind, so there will be no excuse when coming before God.

Romans 1:19-20
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

You mentioned to look at the obvious….asking do I see many? Another obvious I see when I look is every single day you’ll have men telling you how wrong everyone is and how right they are. I’ve been told and laughed at before that I’m not able to eat the meat. How I need to be fed the milk. This that Paul spoke is used to flaunt self as one ready for the meat. It is used to push others down as in need of the milk. It’s only recently I’ve noticed the milk Paul fed those still yet carnal was “the pure milk” by which one grows. 1 Peter 2:2-3 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation- [3] if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Jesus said we must be like children if we want to belong to the Kingdom of God. (on earth and in heaven).
ANY food from God is good.
I wouldn't worry too much.
The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
Milk is good.
Meat is good.
Any food of God's is good.
Paul told Timothy not to let anyone discourage him because of his young age.
Those not edifying Christian brothers/sisters are themselves in need of some serious spiritual food !

An obvious to me is if I have tasted the Lord is good, fed pure milk by it I may grow as a newborn infant…why do men desire to kill the newborn infant by their mocking and critiquing and leveraging how they eat the meat. See, I don’t trust a thing men say or push back with a spirit of superiority. Should they not know the pure milk, to taste of the Lord and see that He is good, is not something for them to Lord over people?

Amen!
Stay close to God and don't worry about what men think.

Matthew 14:13-14
13 Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

 

[Fred J]

Mary was more spiritual.
Martha was more practical.
One wanted to feed her spiritual part,
and one wanted to feed her physical part.

You're right because Jesus commended Mary's choice and gently corrected Martha's physical 'agitation' choice that Mary is not helping her.

Nevertheless, the women followers of Jesus and His disciples about their spiritual quest for GOD, who provided the physical part of their needs, scripturally was considered as a 'ministry' by itself.

Luke 8:
3. And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which 'ministered' unto Him of 'their substance'.

Well, in the case of Jesus it's not overwhelming because He was God (is God) and He did what He was supposed to do....
be the perfect lamb as in
Exodus 12:5
5 'Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats.

In our physical sight it seem so because He's God, but scripturally on the spiritual sight, He laid aside His Majesty in Heaven and became a common human being here on earth.

As common human being and a spiritual servant for GOD and HIS will within, forsaking the pleasures and necessities of this world and the flesh. He have set us examples to 'imitate', as we too have become born again, cum born of water and of the Holy Ghost.

Likewise human being but spiritually a child of GOD by HIS every word in the Holy Bible and the Spirit within. We too are to forsake the pleasures and necessities of this world and the flesh. And more towards obedience to GOD and HIS will by the Holy Ghost a man of GOD. (2Timothy3:16&17)

But many of us have taken the choice of partly to this world and the flesh, and partly to the obedience and the will of GOD. Therefore probably we may fall under the category of 'lukewarm' believers, neither 'hot' or 'cold', where the Lord will spit them out.

Note His words further, "Be ye perfect as your FATHER in Heaven is perfect."

Basically in our lifetime, practice in abiding to His every word and confessing when we fall short according to 1 John 1:9, makes us perfect in growth. (Even the worldly saying when i was an unbeliever, especially from the West said, 'Practice makes it perfect.')

i believe GOD given 1 John 1:9, is not for keep on confessing and keep on sinning, even on the same sin.

You've made a very interesting point.

John 3:3 YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.
John 3.5 UNLESS YOU ARE BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT.....

Precisely both verses repeat in the beginning of the passage, "Verily, verily, except a man be born again, and born of water and of the Spirit, ............."

But the significant deference is towards the end of both passages that makes the very interesting point, Glory be to GOD.

Verse 3, ends by, "........................., he cannot 'see' the Kingdom of GOD."

Verse 5, ends by, ".........................., he cannot 'enter' the kingdom of GOD."

Why is it getting harder Fred?
It should be getting easier, no?

When we were lambs/babes in Christ learning and practicing, GOD did not expect of us so much in practicality. But when we're mature as sheep/adult in Christ and discipled, GOD expect us to go out in the field and perform. And likewise wear the full amour in service, that one will be able to be prepared for battle.

It is same with every earthly parent towards their children, which is a 'shadow' in comparison to the Kingdom of GOD above.

Maybe you're just more aware of sinning.
This happens as we realize how holy God is and how lacking we are.
But it does not change our status.

The awareness come from the teaching of Jesus given to all the Apostles in the New Testament.
It does not change our status if we remain a 'lukewarm' Christians and bear not proper fruit.
Our insufficient practice or doer of all His teachings, results to how lacking we are.

Perhaps the man had sin.
Perhaps the sin caused him to become sick.
Jesus is saying that if he GOES BACK TO SINNING (willfully) something even worse than paralysis could happen.
Or Jesus could mean that his very soul is at stake and being lost is even worse than being sick.
It cannot be said for certain what Jesus meant.

This is also a lesson for us, Jesus have made whole and new, forgiven and restored us from inside out being born again. Therefore is not casual for one to sin more, but rather bridle the members of the body and sin no more. Or something worst compared to state one was before, shall happen to them.

Jesus knew man could not be perfect.
Surely He meant something else.
Be perfect means to be complete.

The man could be, if he's a 'doer' and 'abider' to Jesus' teaching, which makes him perfect. He do fall short frequently or from time to time, yet when He confesses them, GOD forgives and cleanses him from all unrighteousness to start all over again.

I don't particularly like this site, but I like how they explain this:

In Matthew 5:48 Jesus continues setting the standard higher than we are wont to set it. The literal interpretation is likely what Jesus intended. We are called to be absolutely perfect, matching the perfection of our heavenly Father. Every aspect of our being should align with God’s ways, including our deepest thoughts. The Greek word used, teleios, conveys a sense of maturity, completeness, or attaining a goal. In this context, the goal is to meet God’s standard, not simply settle for human morality. A follower of Christ cannot take an attitude of “I’m good enough.”

source: What does it mean to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48)? | GotQuestions.org

The above verses are very good and I've posted them many times myself to those that feel that obedience to God is secondary, or some say it's not needed at all.

Jesus taught that we are to ACT on His teachings/words.
Once we're saved we are to obey Jesus' commandments.
To the best of our ability.
No one is perfect or sinless.

Amen to that.
Our effort is ours...
Our trust is in Jesus.

Let's not follow the ways of the world.
God bless you too!

Our discipleship starts as the disciples of Jesus started from the sermon on the mount, Matthew ch. 5 and onwards combining the four Gospels. Then, the Acts of the Apostles and the saints, to their Epistles to the churches about good and bad believer conducts, and finally the book of Revelation.

And too not forgetting the Old Testament as spiritual historical reference, as to fulfilling 2Timothy3:16&17.

2 John 1:
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not GOD, He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the FATHER and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him GOD speed:
11. For he that biddeth him GOD speed is parttaker of his evil deeds.

Since Jesus Christ is the Word of GOD from the beginning, His words in testament is in the Old and New Testament. Where GOD the FATHER inspired them to be written down for the future generation, because;

Hosea 4:
6. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy GOD, I will also forget thy children.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

I'm not sure about John 3:5.
Sometimes I think it's referring to the water of baptism...
sometimes I like the idea that it's the water of birth, physical birth,

It helped me a lot to hear that it might be physical birth.
IOW,,,,man is born - that is one birth.
Then man should also be spritually born - that would be the second birth .... or the BORN AGAIN birth.

One physical
One spiritual.

But, yes, I agree with all you've stated above.

My problem is that they both make a lot of sense.
I do know this for sure,,,,we must be born of the spirit or we will not see God and we will not be complete.
To be complete we need our body, our soul AND our spirit part.

It makes a lot of carnal sense apparently on the contrary, but it's not what Jesus spiritually meant.

When Jesus calls people to be 'born again', Nicodemus understood better than our carnal senses.

Nicodemus know he was born naturally from the water bag in his mother's womb.

Since it was about being 'born again', thinking does he have to go back to his mother womb to be born once again?

Therefore this debunks our weak carnal senses to be 'false' besides the truth written scriptures.

On the the other hand all Israelites had a natural birth, hence why John the Baptist came proclaiming repentance and conducting water baptism?

Why Jesus also born of the water bag in His mother womb, yet He took natural water baptism in the river Jordon?

And as He came out the Spirit descended on Him as to fulfill verse 5, born of water and of the Spirit?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[JohnDB]

Let's review something that no one is discussing.
Jesus could speak Greek but wasn't in this instance. He was speaking Aramaic/Hebrew.

Meaning that there's a word game at play here.

"Bene mayim" and "bene hashamayim".

In Greek/Early Latin it was said as "genethe anōthen".
Genethe is born or beginning
Anothen is above or upper not again or anew in ANY literature anywhere at anytime except this one passage in John.
Is the entire library of Alexandria wrong?
Or was this one section incorrect in translation? (Other sections of scriptures have "anothen" meaning above)

Just saying....there's a problem and it is not a subtle one either.

 

[Fred J]

Let's review something that no one is discussing.
Jesus could speak Greek but wasn't in this instance. He was speaking Aramaic/Hebrew.

Meaning that there's a word game at play here.

"Bene mayim" and "bene hashamayim".

In Greek/Early Latin it was said as "genethe anōthen".
Genethe is born or beginning
Anothen is above or upper not again or anew in ANY literature anywhere at anytime except this one passage in John.
Is the entire library of Alexandria wrong?
Or was this one section incorrect in translation? (Other sections of scriptures have "anothen" meaning above)

Just saying....there's a problem and it is not a subtle one either.

The problem is you, are you saying GOD made a mistake?

Or HE allowed men to make that mistake and have us believers deceived by scripture variance?

According to the context of the scripture what's the problem, whether it's 'born again' or 'born from above'?

Being born again is being born from above, and being born from above is being born again, what's the confusion?

We believers from all walks of life were once born of a mother, but now we've been born again and born from above.

We've been through versions and zero in to the KJV, and the minor variance from one another doesn't bother us at all.

Because Greek translation to English cannot be done word to word, but is rather done best according to expression of the Greek writer.

We've been through this a long time ago, but every new comer bring up this surprise once again.

Whatever version we start from, we also have the Holy Ghost who will lead us into the full truth.

Am surprised you're variant bothered like an 'outsider', that's why unbelievers are picking up on this and mocking our Holy Bible as corrupt.

Apparently GOD made it so in the 'sight' of such 'outsiders' and 'unbelievers' who think they're wise, probably who sneaked in or not truly born again.

Jesus said, 'True lambs and sheep go out the sheepfold for pasture and come in through the gate. But only robbers and thieves climb over the fence to get into the sheepfold.

1 Corinthians 3:
18. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with GOD. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Romans 3:
4. GOD forbid: yea, let GOD be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

i pray to GOD the FATHER in Jesus name that all of us learn from correction and not harden our hearts.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Those that assert that few find God are not the ones keeping them from finding God.

I don’t know for sure, but I do think of
2 Corinthians 4:4-7 In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. [5] For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. [6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

This “not of us” that the power and excellency may be of God, this should cause us to pause and consider saying any weak mind, any carnal mind can figure it out and find the light on its own merit of seeking. Why do we elevate our finding the light, and put others down who haven’t yet found it? When it’s God who gives the Light so the power (giving sight to the blind) is of God and not of men? So no flesh can boast …

In other places it says God blinded them, having given them over to a reprobate mind ….always, always, so that they may learn; the flesh destroyed so the spirit may be saved. Romans 1:28-32 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; [29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, [30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: [32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This is what I’m suggesting though. We naturally assume it’s non believers yet what stands out to me in the above is a whole host of what religion teaches as God’s nature. Who breaks the convent of peace where the wall is torn down? Who is unmerciful? Who is without natural affection. Key there (Imo) is “without natural affection” Paul speaks of being without natural affection in Philippians 2:20-21 For I have no man likeminded(the mind of Christ), who will naturally care for your state. [21] For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.
How is Timothy “likeminded” to naturally care for their state unlike others who seek their own things? To me this fits with where God said He will remove the heart of stone and give a heart of flesh …”to naturally care for your state”. seeking not their own things, but the things of God. Which we claim to be seeking? He said I will put a new spirit in them and they will keep my commandments: he who loves his neighbor has seen God’s nature being partaker of His grace, His mercy and His forgiveness. He who hates his neighbor, then how is the love of God in him? Instead he remains in darkness still. I get it’s debated that was only to Israel that God would remove the heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh “to naturally care” for others state seeking the things of God, and not after their own things. Paul was an Israelite. Personally, I think we need to rethink if it doesn’t pertain to us needing God to remove the heart of stone and to give us a heart of flesh that will naturally care “being likeminded”, naturally caring for others state and not seeking our own glory, but the things that belong to God. Do you see the contradiction in how we say we are not seeking our own things but the things that belong to God…yet deny Him who removed the heart of stone and gives a new heart that will naturally care for others state? What is the operation of God? Why do men teach it’s yet future and doesn’t even apply to today? yet we speak of receiving and finding it whereby we are able to naturally care and seek the things that belong to God?

2 Timothy 3:3-5 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, (what truce “peace” do they break?) false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, [4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; [5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
It wasn’t those sinners but the Pharisees and Sadducees that had a form of godliness yet denied the power thereof. Personally I think we point fingers at the wrong ones as being the deniers of God. Having a form of godliness…




Hebrews 13:20-21
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, [21] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

We each have a mind of our own and God has made Himself be known to mankind, so there will be no excuse when coming before God.

The carnal mind is not the mind of Christ? His thoughts are higher than our own thoughts?

Romans 1:19-20
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

Evident to whom?

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

His unseen attributes..what are His attributes?
His DivineNature…what is His Divine Nature?
So they are without excuse? While they say it’s evident in we love Him because He first loved us …likewise we are without excuse?

 

[Fred J]

We testify based on the wisdom given us and by the discipleship of All Scripture = Holy Bible. (2Timothy3:16&17)

Basically when we take scripture out of context it can give us a not so pleasant picture of GOD, compared to the context.

Based on the context, GOD is not a 'dictator' who murders and keep alive who HE wants to.

But HE is, only to unsaved unbelievers who cannot 'see', and 'shortsighted' believers not thoroughly disciple and 'unlearned' believers dependent on church authority, traditions and doctrine.

For it is written, 'GOD is love.', and also John 3:16, the world meaning, all of Adam and Eve's descended children, dead and alive, until one day the Gospel door is 'shut' for good.

Will testify what is given me and for you who are learned in All Scripture = Holy Bible, who perceive where am coming from scripturally without quotes, thank you.

First of all in Genesis, GOD created every thing on earth, water and sky, and declared them all as, 'very good' or 'perfect', even to our carnal eyes and mind basically. (Romans ch. 1)

(Only those who 'see' and choose 'not to believe', GOD did not give them, but gave them up, who chose for themselves a 'reprobate mind'.

Why the earth, water, sky and things within, over time getting out of hand and out of control to this very day, even worsens as GOD's wrath befall on the ungodly?

(Is not the religion the ungodly conveniently blame it on, especially targeting the Holy Bible believers and religion, obviously attainable and readable)

Where did it start from and when did it begun, the 'very good' established by GOD start to 'crumble', bit by bit to heights?

It all started from Genesis, GOD's 'very good', Adam in the garden did not have to work 'tilt the ground' to get food. Plentiful for two person, just take care of the garden as he was doing so peacefully.

And to ones outside the garden, multiply and bring to subdue the 'very good' of GOD on earth and water.

Then begin the first sin violating the word and commandment of GOD, the 'very good' of GOD begin to 'crumble'.

Adam now sent out of the garden and had to work 'tilting' the ground for food. The 'very good ordained cycle' by GOD began to 'shift', to the beginning of 'not very good cycle' caused by man.

(Those who are wise will not blame it on Adam, for no man after Adam were able to 'reverse' the 'cycle' back to the 'very good' of GOD, since equally sinners one way or another) Romans 3:23

The so called 'shift' took another step 'crumbling', when Cain murdered Abel, who's sin caused him to work 'twice' as hard than Adam tilting the ground, since thorns and thistles grew together.

By these two examples which is sufficient, the child of GOD is able to 'perceive' the condition of earth, water, sky and things within, the state it is in till today and progressing due to man's sins worldwide.

Sadly there's been many human activists from the day they started until now, working to fix the 'shift'. But in vain back and forth, one replacing the other, while the paradigm continue worsening.

On the surface of the scripture, GOD caused the blindness, but to the 'depth' of the scripture, sinfully and ignorantly man caused it to happen like that and continue to have it like that. Even in rebellion further try to fix themselves these 'crumbled and shifted' things, while the earth, water, sky and things within owned by GOD 'yield not'.

Once GOD did cleanse the earth by water, and allowed 8 souls to start all over again, and still it began to 'crumble and shift' once again due to sin.

Therefore once and for all, HE's finally going to cleanse the earth with fire, and place Heavenly and eternal saints in the new earth.

For the record in the New Testament, the blindness in part GOD caused on the Israelites was on purpose. This is to ensure and purposed that the Gospel will go to the Gentiles, and until the full number of them come in. By this as GOD have not forgotten them, finally ensures all Israel shall be saved.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[soberxp]

living water and life given Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're right because Jesus commended Mary's choice and gently corrected Martha's physical 'agitation' choice that Mary is not helping her.

Nevertheless, the women followers of Jesus and His disciples about their spiritual quest for GOD, who provided the physical part of their needs, scripturally was considered as a 'ministry' by itself.

Luke 8:
3. And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which 'ministered' unto Him of 'their substance'.

In our physical sight it seem so because He's God, but scripturally on the spiritual sight, He laid aside His Majesty in Heaven and became a common human being here on earth.

Agreed.

As common human being and a spiritual servant for GOD and HIS will within, forsaking the pleasures and necessities of this world and the flesh. He have set us examples to 'imitate', as we too have become born again, cum born of water and of the Holy Ghost.

Likewise human being but spiritually a child of GOD by HIS every word in the Holy Bible and the Spirit within. We too are to forsake the pleasures and necessities of this world and the flesh. And more towards obedience to GOD and HIS will by the Holy Ghost a man of GOD. (2Timothy3:16&17)

But many of us have taken the choice of partly to this world and the flesh, and partly to the obedience and the will of GOD. Therefore probably we may fall under the category of 'lukewarm' believers, neither 'hot' or 'cold', where the Lord will spit them out.

This partly you speak of could be discussed.
I don't believe we are to give up all worldly things that we might enjoy doing.
They are not a sin unto themselves....
It's the same as what Jesus said about money...
the LOVE of money is the sin...not the money itself.

I could enjoy travelling, it's not a sin.
I could enjoy cooking, it's not a sin.

I think we are to detach ourselves from sinful worldy activities...
and we are not to put ANY activity above God.

Note His words further, "Be ye perfect as your FATHER in Heaven is perfect."

Basically in our lifetime, practice in abiding to His every word and confessing when we fall short according to 1 John 1:9, makes us perfect in growth. (Even the worldly saying when i was an unbeliever, especially from the West said, 'Practice makes it perfect.')

i believe GOD given 1 John 1:9, is not for keep on confessing and keep on sinning, even on the same sin.

Agreed.

Precisely both verses repeat in the beginning of the passage, "Verily, verily, except a man be born again, and born of water and of the Spirit, ............."

But the significant deference is towards the end of both passages that makes the very interesting point, Glory be to GOD.

Verse 3, ends by, "........................., he cannot 'see' the Kingdom of GOD."

Verse 5, ends by, ".........................., he cannot 'enter' the kingdom of GOD."

When we were lambs/babes in Christ learning and practicing, GOD did not expect of us so much in practicality. But when we're mature as sheep/adult in Christ and discipled, GOD expect us to go out in the field and perform. And likewise wear the full amour in service, that one will be able to be prepared for battle.

It is same with every earthly parent towards their children, which is a 'shadow' in comparison to the Kingdom of GOD above.

Yes. What you've written is also true.
I think it could be both ways....
some find it more difficult at the beginning
and some later on in life.

I think the important thing is to grow and mature in God.

The awareness come from the teaching of Jesus given to all the Apostles in the New Testament.
It does not change our status if we remain a 'lukewarm' Christians and bear not proper fruit.
Our insufficient practice or doer of all His teachings, results to how lacking we are.

This is also a lesson for us, Jesus have made whole and new, forgiven and restored us from inside out being born again. Therefore is not casual for one to sin more, but rather bridle the members of the body and sin no more. Or something worst compared to state one was before, shall happen to them.

The man could be, if he's a 'doer' and 'abider' to Jesus' teaching, which makes him perfect. He do fall short frequently or from time to time, yet when He confesses them, GOD forgives and cleanses him from all unrighteousness to start all over again.

Again,,,,I agree.
We can only do our best....
God will know this.

Our discipleship starts as the disciples of Jesus started from the sermon on the mount, Matthew ch. 5 and onwards combining the four Gospels. Then, the Acts of the Apostles and the saints, to their Epistles to the churches about good and bad believer conducts, and finally the book of Revelation.

And too not forgetting the Old Testament as spiritual historical reference, as to fulfilling 2Timothy3:16&17.

2 John 1:
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not GOD, He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the FATHER and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him GOD speed:
11. For he that biddeth him GOD speed is parttaker of his evil deeds.

2 John 1
What a great verse you've posted!
Unfortunately some Christians want to debate this and do not accept it as it is plainly written.

Indeed...if we do not ABIDE in Christ...we have not God.
IF we abide in the teachings of Christ,,,we have both the Father and the Son.

Since Jesus Christ is the Word of GOD from the beginning, His words in testament is in the Old and New Testament. Where GOD the FATHER inspired them to be written down for the future generation, because;

Hosea 4:
6. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy GOD, I will also forget thy children.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

Very good post Fred.
Thanks!

 

[JohnDB]

The problem is you, are you saying GOD made a mistake?

Or HE allowed men to make that mistake and have us believers deceived by scripture variance?

According to the context of the scripture what's the problem, whether it's 'born again' or 'born from above'?

Being born again is being born from above, and being born from above is being born again, what's the confusion?

These are NOT the same....and the correct reading is ALWAYS in the foot notes of modern bibles. Yes, in ENGLISH alone the translation was incorrect for years. And attention was not called to it until roughly late 1960's & 70's when it became popularized by marketing campaigns of proselytizing.

Born from above is a definite class of individual. Called out by God before they were born and sometimes even named specifically by God.
The reason it's important is that "Born from Above" is denoted heavily in Jewish culture and a subset of the infamous group "Sons of God" or Bene Elohim. Bene Elohim is a major theme of John's Gospel. (See John 1:12&13)

 

[MatthewG]

Just using google to look up a couple verses you can find this:

In Matthew 3:7 and Luke 3:7, John the Baptist is the one who asks the question, "Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?". He directs this question to the Pharisees and Sadducees (in Matthew) and to the crowds (in Luke) who came to be baptized.

Elaboration:

• In both Gospels, John the Baptist is depicted as preaching a message of repentance and baptism, preparing the way for the coming of the Messiah.
  
  
• He encounters various groups of people, including religious leaders (Pharisees and Sadducees) and the general public, who come to be baptized by him.
  
  
• John challenges these groups, calling them a "brood of vipers" and questioning who has warned them about the coming wrath.
  
  
• The "coming wrath" refers to God's judgment and the consequences of unrepentant sin.
  
  
• John's question highlights the urgency of repentance and the need to turn away from sin and towards God.
  
  
• His words serve as a warning to those who are not genuinely repentant and are merely going through the motions of religious observance.
  
  
• John's message emphasizes that being a descendant of Abraham or participating in religious rituals is not sufficient to escape God's judgment; genuine repentance and bearing fruit consistent with repentance are necessary.

Adding to this we see the Jewish people knew that John the Baptist would be the one to come to prepare the way,

Malachi 3:1 is widely interpreted as foretelling the coming of John the Baptist as a messenger who would prepare the way for the Lord, specifically Jesus Christ. This verse speaks of a messenger who will "prepare the way" and the "Messenger of the covenant" who will suddenly come to the temple. The New Testament Gospels identify John the Baptist as the messenger who fulfilled this prophecy, preparing the way for Jesus' ministry, according to religious texts.


Adding to this we see the judgement upon that nation was coming, when John speaks saying

Matthew 3:10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

We see the fig tree; The Bible verse describing Jesus causing a fig tree to wither is Matthew 21:18-22. In this passage, Jesus, returning to Jerusalem, finds a fig tree with only leaves, indicating it should have had fruit but did not. He then curses the tree, saying, "May you never bear fruit again!". The tree immediately withers, which amazes the disciples.


Signifying the death of the nation as it was in that day in age because why?

The Bible verse describing Jesus causing a fig tree to wither is Matthew 21:18-22. In this passage, Jesus, returning to Jerusalem, finds a fig tree with only leaves, indicating it should have had fruit but did not. He then curses the tree, saying, "May you never bear fruit again!". The tree immediately withers, which amazes the disciples.

We see what Jesus states concerning John the Baptist,

In Matthew 11:14, Jesus states that John the Baptist is the "Elijah who is to come." This refers to the prophecy in Malachi 4:5-6, which speaks of Elijah being sent before the "great and awesome day of the Lord". Jesus is saying that John fulfills this role in preparing the way for his first coming as the Messiah.


So what was the baptism of water for? A showing of a persons heart turning back to God because they desired to be saved from this coming wrath, and their was some there which was baptized whom were going to be part of the Bride of Christ which is spoken about.

We can add what Jesus says here:

Matthew 16:28: "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom". This verse is often interpreted in relation to the transfiguration of Jesus (Matthew 17:1-13) or the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Some believe it refers to the second coming, but this is not the most common interpretation.

We can also add this verse here from Hebrews; concerning those who would actually see him,

One of the most direct verses in the Book of Hebrews that touches on being watchful and waiting, specifically in the context of Christ's return, is Hebrews 9:28.

It states, in the ESV:
"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him".

Then you can add this verse:

Revelation 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. So it is to be. Amen.

Who would see him? Those who pierced him, and those whom were waiting and watching and patiently waiting for him.

 

[Fred J]

These are NOT the same....and the correct reading is ALWAYS in the foot notes of modern bibles. Yes, in ENGLISH alone the translation was incorrect for years. And attention was not called to it until roughly late 1960's & 70's when it became popularized by marketing campaigns of proselytizing.

Born from above is a definite class of individual. Called out by God before they were born and sometimes even named specifically by God.
The reason it's important is that "Born from Above" is denoted heavily in Jewish culture and a subset of the infamous group "Sons of God" or Bene Elohim. Bene Elohim is a major theme of John's Gospel. (See John 1:12&13)

Dear John,

Whether we're 'born from above' or 'born again', to us they're same according to the wisdom given us from above and the inspired context of the New Testament scriptures.

In the Old Testament scripture context, the GOD of Israel refers to the 'angels' as the 'sons of GOD', and to the 'fathers of Israel' as 'son of man'.

Matthew 3:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that GOD is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 15:
6. And honor not his father or his mother; he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of GOD of none effect by your tradition.
7. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8. This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoureth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me.
9. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

GOD of the Old Testament for Israelites, sent HIS SON in the New Testament also first for the Israelites. Where from the beginning with John the Baptist the best-man, and later with Jesus the bridegroom, expressed HIS disappointment and disgust upon the leaders and rabbis of Israel.

(This prophecy you can study beforehand in the book of Ezekiel in the Old Testament, which came to pass and fulfillment through HIS Son, Jesus Christ)

Jesus also referred to them as 'heartless men', who's of fathers that forced Moses to write added laws besides GOD's, for their convenience.

As Jesus disciple us and is written, 'You will know them by their fruit.'

i too discern you by your fruit in a good way, to let you know, likewise you're too innocently hanging on and take pride in, the traditions and teaching for doctrines the commandments of your men elders and rabbis.

But to GOD in the New Testament, where Israel is still the 'apple of HIS eye', love to correct you all in encouragement. (Proverbs 3:12/ Hebrews 12:6)

Where to HIM those traditions and teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, whether of leaders, rabbis or priests of Israel, they're 'unfruitful' and 'fit for hell'.

Matthew 23:
13. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

15. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Friend, unknowingly you're doing the same with the Word of GOD, about 'born from above/born again' in the New Testament. And interrelating with the traditions cum teaching for doctrines the commandments of men 'elders of Israel', 'Bene Elohim' of Old Testament false 'mind set'.

Why is this very disturbing and unfruitful to GOD since the Old Testament 'dark', that HE's brought this forward in the New Testament 'Light'??

Matthew 15:
6. And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of GOD of none effect by your tradition.

2 Peter 3:
9. The lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

i believe the Word of GOD has ministered to whom this may concern and loved, not me an unworthy servant, a vessel who'd just brought it forth in service.

Thank you

Shalom from ABBA, FATHER to you all in the name of HIS Son Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Fred J]

Agreed.

This partly you speak of could be discussed.
I don't believe we are to give up all worldly things that we might enjoy doing.
They are not a sin unto themselves....
It's the same as what Jesus said about money...
the LOVE of money is the sin...not the money itself.

I could enjoy travelling, it's not a sin.
I could enjoy cooking, it's not a sin.

I think we are to detach ourselves from sinful worldy activities...
and we are not to put ANY activity above God.

Agreed.

Yes. What you've written is also true.
I think it could be both ways....
some find it more difficult at the beginning
and some later on in life.

I think the important thing is to grow and mature in God.

Again,,,,I agree.
We can only do our best....
God will know this.

2 John 1
What a great verse you've posted!
Unfortunately some Christians want to debate this and do not accept it as it is plainly written.

Indeed...if we do not ABIDE in Christ...we have not God.
IF we abide in the teachings of Christ,,,we have both the Father and the Son.

Very good post Fred.
Thanks!

Peace be with you in Jesus name.

Am merely an unworthy servant by the grace of GOD, an earthen 'vessel' like other members of faith. Where GOD had 'stored' HIS new and old treasures, which we bring forth in service according to our calling.

In the New Testament, GOD through Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost have assigned, 'honorable vessels' and 'not so honorable vessel', and am that, 'not so one'.

A gentle response given me to minister, to what you've replied, thank you.

For example, travelling and cooking like you've said, can be a leisure and pleasure for some, and can be a ministry to the Glory of GOD for some.

The Book of Acts is a testament of GOD in example of HIS church, for there were travelling to minister the Gospel to all nation. And there were also 'ration distributing' centers for those who are 'underprivileged', also for 'outsiders' evenly. And, 'money collection among churches (not from unbelievers),for the needy church meeting places and believers'. Also there is 'cooking', where the churches then after their every gathering service, sat down together and broke bread in remembrance of the Lord.

The Kingdom of GOD in Heaven is like a 'shadow' touching the earth, resemblance to some of our everyday life on earth. Where Jesus the Son of GOD Himself uses them as 'parables', to what the Kingdom of GOD His FATHER is like.

And too, based on His words/teaching also in parables, unto liken what a wise and unwise believer cum builder of one's house, and on what foundation they've placed it on.

And to conclude also to those who are reading, as believers who are free on earth, to the measure of necessities and pleasures, and finance one enjoy on earth. And to save one's life and not lay it down for the Gospel sake, cum friends of this world. The 'poverty' one suffers and knowing beforehand by scriptures, where in Heaven one's house is half built and empty inside.

Again, if it's the other way around, least necessities and pleasures and finances spent on oneself on earth. And more on the house and things of GOD, enough just enough to live in one sufficient home, probably working or owning business in the world. The 'richness' one enjoys and knowing beforehand by scriptures, where in Heaven one's house is fully built. And to the measure one's sown on earth, is the measure of treasures will be stored in one's house as investment return from GOD.

Hebrews 11:
13. These all died in faith, not having received the promise, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Also leave you about the widow who put her last two coins in the offering for GOD, while the others gave out of their abundance. And according to Jesus who gave the most??

Nevertheless, in the book of Acts, there were wealthy believers who sold part of their property and brought the exact money of sale they've decided to the Apostles. Not forgetting also the couple who fail to fulfill what they've decided, after getting the money had a change of mind and held back some, thank you.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[JohnDB]

Dear John,

Whether we're 'born from above' or 'born again', to us they're same according to the wisdom given us from above and the inspired context of the New Testament scriptures.

In the Old Testament scripture context, the GOD of Israel refers to the 'angels' as the 'sons of GOD', and to the 'fathers of Israel' as 'son of man'.

Matthew 3:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that GOD is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 15:
6. And honor not his father or his mother; he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of GOD of none effect by your tradition.
7. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8. This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoureth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me.
9. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

GOD of the Old Testament for Israelites, sent HIS SON in the New Testament also first for the Israelites. Where from the beginning with John the Baptist the best-man, and later with Jesus the bridegroom, expressed HIS disappointment and disgust upon the leaders and rabbis of Israel.

(This prophecy you can study beforehand in the book of Ezekiel in the Old Testament, which came to pass and fulfillment through HIS Son, Jesus Christ)

Jesus also referred to them as 'heartless men', who's of fathers that forced Moses to write added laws besides GOD's, for their convenience.

As Jesus disciple us and is written, 'You will know them by their fruit.'

i too discern you by your fruit in a good way, to let you know, likewise you're too innocently hanging on and take pride in, the traditions and teaching for doctrines the commandments of your men elders and rabbis.

But to GOD in the New Testament, where Israel is still the 'apple of HIS eye', love to correct you all in encouragement. (Proverbs 3:12/ Hebrews 12:6)

Where to HIM those traditions and teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, whether of leaders, rabbis or priests of Israel, they're 'unfruitful' and 'fit for hell'.

Matthew 23:
13. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

15. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Friend, unknowingly you're doing the same with the Word of GOD, about 'born from above/born again' in the New Testament. And interrelating with the traditions cum teaching for doctrines the commandments of men 'elders of Israel', 'Bene Elohim' of Old Testament false 'mind set'.

Why is this very disturbing and unfruitful to GOD since the Old Testament 'dark', that HE's brought this forward in the New Testament 'Light'??

Matthew 15:
6. And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of GOD of none effect by your tradition.

2 Peter 3:
9. The lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

i believe the Word of GOD has ministered to whom this may concern and loved, not me an unworthy servant, a vessel who'd just brought it forth in service.

Thank you

Shalom from ABBA, FATHER to you all in the name of HIS Son Lord Jesus Christ.

Ummmmm,

You writing me a "Dear John" reply?

Uggghhhhhh.....we broke up? I didn't know we were even together.

But seriously and to the point.
When reading scripture you must use hermeneutics. Which is a blend of art and sciences together to understand what they mean. To ignore anthropology is folly.

John's Gospel is a book with several themes and purposes written to a world of believers with a purpose to set certain theological principles straight that the world at large was getting confused over....and for good reasons.

This concept of parenthood and children was a theme used by John to make clear the differences between true believers and the charlatans looking to deceive. It wasn't written for Jews but instead a Roman audience. However it did use Jewish background and themes that were considered common knowledge 2,000 years ago. Also considering that this was using a society on the other side of the planet as a backdrop....it's necessary for us today to use some learned men to help understand what things meant.

Anthropology studies are crucial for a more complete and comprehensive understanding of scripture. Because we have John, a Jewish born Apostle, as the writer and an audience, the Roman world who had some knowledge of Jews and their "strange" behaviors from their neighborhood.

So John would write this to them so that they could have an understanding of intended thoughts John was trying to convey to them using thought processes they could understand.

John was living in a world where Gnosticism was becoming very popular very quickly. Where people would continue to sin, have sinful lifestyles, and use Christ's sacrifice as license to do so. This is what John was setting out to prove was NOT characteristic of a true Son of God.

And one of the things about writing is that sometimes humor, incredulity, sarcasm, and other human emotions do not come out the clearest in the written word. Especially scriptures where the writing style has enormous brevity and only the essentials are written. (Paper and ink were VERY expensive....another thing we learn from anthropology).

I do not believe that the conversation recorded in John 3 is perfectly complete.
OR
The part where we, in English, would write something to the tune of "..... mothers womb!' ,he said incredulously." was never part of the Jewish writing style. Never ever once.

God's word is precious. We do not use scissors to cut things out or add things not there to them. EVER.....

Every single word matters. Which is why we look at the original language so often. We want fuller and more complete understanding. We do NOT lean upon traditions of men. We ALL were taught that Nicodemus visited at night because he didn't want to be seen....and nothing further from the truth could be had. Nighttime in Israel is social hour. That's when friends meet up and relax. Nicodemus wanted to be Jesus's friend because he believed that Jesus was sent of God. He didn't really understand that he woke God up from his sleep. And was incredulous of his standing Jesus was revealing to him.

Which, if we were reading this in Aramaic or Early Latin (similar to Koine Greek) 2,000 years ago, it would make more sense.

It's OK to make these kinds of mistakes because we have a whole population of Christians repeating an erroneous interpretation stemming from a poor translation performed by Erasmus the monk over 600 years ago.

 

[Fred J]

Ummmmm,

You writing me a "Dear John" reply?

Uggghhhhhh.....we broke up? I didn't know we were even together.

But seriously and to the point.
When reading scripture you must use hermeneutics. Which is a blend of art and sciences together to understand what they mean. To ignore anthropology is folly.

John's Gospel is a book with several themes and purposes written to a world of believers with a purpose to set certain theological principles straight that the world at large was getting confused over....and for good reasons.

This concept of parenthood and children was a theme used by John to make clear the differences between true believers and the charlatans looking to deceive. It wasn't written for Jews but instead a Roman audience. However it did use Jewish background and themes that were considered common knowledge 2,000 years ago. Also considering that this was using a society on the other side of the planet as a backdrop....it's necessary for us today to use some learned men to help understand what things meant.

Anthropology studies are crucial for a more complete and comprehensive understanding of scripture. Because we have John, a Jewish born Apostle, as the writer and an audience, the Roman world who had some knowledge of Jews and their "strange" behaviors from their neighborhood.

So John would write this to them so that they could have an understanding of intended thoughts John was trying to convey to them using thought processes they could understand.

John was living in a world where Gnosticism was becoming very popular very quickly. Where people would continue to sin, have sinful lifestyles, and use Christ's sacrifice as license to do so. This is what John was setting out to prove was NOT characteristic of a true Son of God.

And one of the things about writing is that sometimes humor, incredulity, sarcasm, and other human emotions do not come out the clearest in the written word. Especially scriptures where the writing style has enormous brevity and only the essentials are written. (Paper and ink were VERY expensive....another thing we learn from anthropology).

I do not believe that the conversation recorded in John 3 is perfectly complete.
OR
The part where we, in English, would write something to the tune of "..... mothers womb!' ,he said incredulously." was never part of the Jewish writing style. Never ever once.

God's word is precious. We do not use scissors to cut things out or add things not there to them. EVER.....

Every single word matters. Which is why we look at the original language so often. We want fuller and more complete understanding. We do NOT lean upon traditions of men. We ALL were taught that Nicodemus visited at night because he didn't want to be seen....and nothing further from the truth could be had. Nighttime in Israel is social hour. That's when friends meet up and relax. Nicodemus wanted to be Jesus's friend because he believed that Jesus was sent of God. He didn't really understand that he woke God up from his sleep. And was incredulous of his standing Jesus was revealing to him.

Which, if we were reading this in Aramaic or Early Latin (similar to Koine Greek) 2,000 years ago, it would make more sense.

It's OK to make these kinds of mistakes because we have a whole population of Christians repeating an erroneous interpretation stemming from a poor translation performed by Erasmus the monk over 600 years ago.

The word, 'dear' is used when we're writing a letter to a male or female.

On the other hand, am sticking to 'born again' because it suites well with the context.

John 3:
4. Nicodemus saith unto Him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second tine into his mother's womb, and be born.

'Born again' perfectly made sense to Nicodemus, for him to ask in that manner.

Nicodemus is also a Pharisee, and Pharisees believe in the after death resurrection.

So if Jesus would have said, 'born from above', Nicodemus automatically would've catch on that Jesus is referring to death and resurrection.

Even Martha believed saying to Jesus, that her brother will live at the resurrection of the dead.

No, thank you

 

[JohnDB]

The word, 'dear' is used when we're writing a letter to a male or female.

On the other hand, am sticking to 'born again' because it suites well with the context.

John 3:
4. Nicodemus saith unto Him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second tine into his mother's womb, and be born.

'Born again' perfectly made sense to Nicodemus, for him to ask in that manner.

Nicodemus is also a Pharisee, and Pharisees believe in the after death resurrection.

So if Jesus would have said, 'born from above', Nicodemus automatically would've catch on that Jesus is referring to death and resurrection.

Even Martha believed saying to Jesus, that her brother will live at the resurrection of the dead.

No, thank you

You are inserting YOUR thoughts into the scriptures. (Based upon the influence of others)

Jesus said "you must be born from above".
He did not say, "You need to become born again"
Jesus wasn't declaring to Nicodemus something he must accomplish, He was declaring the truth of what was a reality that Nicodemus did not see or understand. Nicodemus didn't believe he was one of the Born from Above crowd....a special and praiseworthy list of people.

Nicodemus did not feel like he was that special or lived a special life to be one of the "genethe anothen" . That's why he believed he needed a whole life do over. Nicodemus was being sarcastic and self depreciating.

And a "Dear John" letter is a colloquial term that was once well known as a breakup letter that soldiers got during WW2 from their girlfriends telling them they had met someone else. I was finding humor in what you wrote. I knew what you intended....but it just struck me as funny. I'm not trying to belittle your writing style.

Take a minute....consider what I'm saying.
Consider the theological implications. Don't dismiss them out of hand. (I'm not promoting Calvinism even if it might appear that way on the surface)

I'm extremely dedicated to God's Word....a huge fan. I value every word said in context. Not adding to or taking away one little word or meaning.

"Anothen" is a Greek word meaning upper/above in an entire library in Alexandria and everywhere else in Koine Greek literature but somehow it's supposed to mean "again or anew" in this one section of scripture? It's not even in keeping with the other place used in scriptures. (It means upper/above there too)

John records this exchange because John's Gospel addresses theological truths to set straight a gentile world straight in theological processes.

Where Paul describes us being born anew into a new purpose and a new family and I can agree with Paul's sentiments....Jesus is not saying those things here. It's a completely different subject.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are inserting YOUR thoughts into the scriptures. (Based upon the influence of others)

Jesus said "you must be born from above".
He did not say, "You need to become born again"
Jesus wasn't declaring to Nicodemus something he must accomplish, He was declaring the truth of what was a reality that Nicodemus did not see or understand. Nicodemus didn't believe he was one of the Born from Above crowd....a special and praiseworthy list of people.

Nicodemus did not feel like he was that special or lived a special life to be one of the "genethe anothen" . That's why he believed he needed a whole life do over. Nicodemus was being sarcastic and self depreciating.

And a "Dear John" letter is a colloquial term that was once well known as a breakup letter that soldiers got during WW2 from their girlfriends telling them they had met someone else. I was finding humor in what you wrote. I knew what you intended....but it just struck me as funny. I'm not trying to belittle your writing style.

Take a minute....consider what I'm saying.
Consider the theological implications. Don't dismiss them out of hand. (I'm not promoting Calvinism even if it might appear that way on the surface)

I'm extremely dedicated to God's Word....a huge fan. I value every word said in context. Not adding to or taking away one little word or meaning.

"Anothen" is a Greek word meaning upper/above in an entire library in Alexandria and everywhere else in Koine Greek literature but somehow it's supposed to mean "again or anew" in this one section of scripture? It's not even in keeping with the other place used in scriptures. (It means upper/above there too)

John records this exchange because John's Gospel addresses theological truths to set straight a gentile world straight in theological processes.

Where Paul describes us being born anew into a new purpose and a new family and I can agree with Paul's sentiments....Jesus is not saying those things here. It's a completely different subject.

lets think about this a minute

Born from above. is this not another birth. a new birth. or a seperate birth?

anyway, from the BDAG 0 Anothen - From above, From the beginning, For a long time, Anew, Again

 

[JohnDB]

BTW @Fred J ,

Most pastors have been shying away from the whole "Born Again" theology. They no longer mention it in pulpits because we are in the information age. And most pastors don't know enough anthropology to know what Jesus meant by "Born from Above". (I do but I'm a bit "different ")

My library is full of books concentrating on all sorts of things. Like a photo journal of Sepphoris (where Jesus and his brothers went to work every day) And then there are the language guides and anthropology guides and studies. Of course there's Vines, Strongs, Harleys and BHS textbooks as well as Greek grammar guides and Wescott commentaries to bring out the Jewish Literature. (Hort was the "publicist"/financier of Westcotts knowledge of ancient Jewish extrabiblical literature that he wrote)
Eadie was his apprentice and Lightfoot was Hort's (if my memory is serving me correctly)

I know nothing of counseling or church finance or how to deliver a sermon.
I'm just a weird guy who thought it important enough that I really really needed to know what I was gambling my Eternal soul upon. And I can read at a blinding fast pace absorbing insane amounts of knowledge quickly. (Not a recommended practice....I've since had to stop completely and get out of the library so I could meet and talk with people on a friendly basis)

 

[JohnDB]

lets think about this a minute

Born from above. is this not another birth. a new birth. or a seperate birth?

anyway, from the BDAG 0 Anothen - From above, From the beginning, For a long time, Anew, Again

Yep....I know that they have made "Christian" dictionaries of Koine Greek fit the scriptures. (A backwards practice)

There's a REASON for the footnote. And I just explained it. This is the ONLY place that Anothen somehow means anew/again....not anywhere else in Koine Greek literature. Not even in the other location the word Anothen is used in scripture. Just this one isolated spot in John....

Now, usually, we call this a clue of something being wrong. How can this one word have two completely diverse and different meanings completely unrelated to each other? (It can't....this sort of thing doesn't happen in language)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yep....I know that they have made "Christian" dictionaries of Koine Greek fit the scriptures. (A backwards practice)

There's a REASON for the footnote. And I just explained it. This is the ONLY place that Anothen somehow means anew/again....not anywhere else in Koine Greek literature. Not even in the other location the word Anothen is used in scripture. Just this one isolated spot in John....

Now, usually, we call this a clue of something being wrong. How can this one word have two completely diverse and different meanings completely unrelated to each other? (It can't....this sort of thing doesn't happen in language)

again, You are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

1. Born from above is still a different birth (that which is born of flesh (1 birth) that which is born of spirit (another birth)

and Jesus explained how this is accomplish in verses 10 - 18..