Does Daniel 11 Describe King Herod and His Dynasty?

[CTK]

My thought has been that the 70th Week is not said to be a full Week--only that is the last Week among 70 Weeks. That last Week is the 70th Week whether it is half a Week or a full Week. I think the 70th Week was fulfilled as a Half-Week.

Does this make any sense... please let me know, and thanks,

Daniel 9:24a — Seventy weeks are determined

Daniel 9:24b—For your people and your holy city

Gabriel’s introduction in Daniel 9:24 opens one of the most critical time-based prophecies in Scripture. He begins not with symbols or imagery, but with a definitive statement: “Seventy weeks are determined…” This declaration establishes the structured nature of this prophecy, consistent with the interpretive pattern found in Daniel’s earlier chapters. Just as Daniel 2, 7, and 8 present visions followed by clear interpretation sequences, Daniel 9 follows suit—not through symbolic beasts or metal images, but through precise time markers.

This prophecy is not vague, metaphorical, or flexible. It is fixed, measured, and divinely determined—a 490-year time span laid out like a blueprint. The Hebrew word for “determined” (chathak) literally implies something “cut out” or “shaped,” reinforcing the idea that these seventy weeks are carved from history for a very specific purpose. They are set apart by God Himself, placed on a divine timeline to mark the unfolding of salvation history.

Gabriel makes it unmistakably clear who this prophecy is for: “your people and your holy city.” This is not a global prophecy for all nations—it is specifically directed toward the Jewish people and Jerusalem. There is no ambiguity here. The seventy weeks apply to Daniel’s people (the Jews) and Daniel’s city (Jerusalem). This is the covenant context.

This direct address reinforces the covenantal relationship between God and Israel. It also means that the seventy-week clock will unfold within Jewish history, culminating in events that will take place in Jerusalem and through the Jewish Messiah. Any attempt to transplant this prophecy onto a different group or era misaligns it from the clear framework Gabriel has laid out.

This sharpens the urgency and responsibility given to the Jewish nation: they are not left in the dark about the timing of the Messiah. They are entrusted with a precise countdown—a spiritual compass that points directly to the long-awaited Redeemer. Unlike the more general historical timelines in Daniel 2 and 7, which chart the rise and fall of empires, this prophecy divides its 490 years into three distinct sections, each with spiritual and historical significance:

7 weeks (49 years): A period marking the rebuilding of Jerusalem, beginning with the decree to restore and rebuild the city.

62 weeks (434 years): A long span leading up to the appearance of the Messiah, during which the Jewish people would prepare for His arrival.

1 week (7 years): The final and most critical segment, where the Messiah would fulfill the mission of salvation—through His life, death, and resurrection.

This division is not random. It is intentional, designed to provide clear prophetic checkpoints. Each phase moves toward the ultimate goal: the appearance and atoning work of the Messiah. These divisions also serve as guardrails for interpretation, helping the faithful to stay on course and preventing the prophecy from being spiritualized or redefined beyond its original purpose.

As the Jewish people returned from exile, the earlier visions given to Daniel—the chazon (broad prophetic sequence) and the mareh (focused vision of the Messiah)—were no longer to be “sealed” or kept hidden. The seventy-weeks prophecy is the key that unseals the earlier visions. It was given specifically to the Jewish nation so they could study, discern, and prepare.

 

[covenantee]

Does this make any sense... please let me know, and thanks,

Daniel 9:24a — Seventy weeks are determined

Daniel 9:24b—For your people and your holy city

Gabriel’s introduction in Daniel 9:24 opens one of the most critical time-based prophecies in Scripture. He begins not with symbols or imagery, but with a definitive statement: “Seventy weeks are determined…” This declaration establishes the structured nature of this prophecy, consistent with the interpretive pattern found in Daniel’s earlier chapters. Just as Daniel 2, 7, and 8 present visions followed by clear interpretation sequences, Daniel 9 follows suit—not through symbolic beasts or metal images, but through precise time markers.

This prophecy is not vague, metaphorical, or flexible. It is fixed, measured, and divinely determined—a 490-year time span laid out like a blueprint. The Hebrew word for “determined” (chathak) literally implies something “cut out” or “shaped,” reinforcing the idea that these seventy weeks are carved from history for a very specific purpose. They are set apart by God Himself, placed on a divine timeline to mark the unfolding of salvation history.

Gabriel makes it unmistakably clear who this prophecy is for: “your people and your holy city.” This is not a global prophecy for all nations—it is specifically directed toward the Jewish people and Jerusalem. There is no ambiguity here. The seventy weeks apply to Daniel’s people (the Jews) and Daniel’s city (Jerusalem). This is the covenant context.

This direct address reinforces the covenantal relationship between God and Israel. It also means that the seventy-week clock will unfold within Jewish history, culminating in events that will take place in Jerusalem and through the Jewish Messiah. Any attempt to transplant this prophecy onto a different group or era misaligns it from the clear framework Gabriel has laid out.

This sharpens the urgency and responsibility given to the Jewish nation: they are not left in the dark about the timing of the Messiah. They are entrusted with a precise countdown—a spiritual compass that points directly to the long-awaited Redeemer. Unlike the more general historical timelines in Daniel 2 and 7, which chart the rise and fall of empires, this prophecy divides its 490 years into three distinct sections, each with spiritual and historical significance:

7 weeks (49 years): A period marking the rebuilding of Jerusalem, beginning with the decree to restore and rebuild the city.

62 weeks (434 years): A long span leading up to the appearance of the Messiah, during which the Jewish people would prepare for His arrival.

1 week (7 years): The final and most critical segment, where the Messiah would fulfill the mission of salvation—through His life, death, and resurrection.

This division is not random. It is intentional, designed to provide clear prophetic checkpoints. Each phase moves toward the ultimate goal: the appearance and atoning work of the Messiah. These divisions also serve as guardrails for interpretation, helping the faithful to stay on course and preventing the prophecy from being spiritualized or redefined beyond its original purpose.

As the Jewish people returned from exile, the earlier visions given to Daniel—the chazon (broad prophetic sequence) and the mareh (focused vision of the Messiah)—were no longer to be “sealed” or kept hidden. The seventy-weeks prophecy is the key that unseals the earlier visions. It was given specifically to the Jewish nation so they could study, discern, and prepare.

Well exegeted and expressed, bro.

 

[CTK]

Well exegeted and expressed, bro.

That is indeed very kind ... thanks so much.

 

[Wick Stick]

I have heard that verse 30 refers to the famous "line in the sand" ultimatum delivered by the Romans:

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Gaius Popillius Laenas was sent as an envoy to prevent a war between Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire and Ptolemaic Egypt. Antiochus greeting him from a distance and then holding out his hand for a shake. But instead Popillius Laenas handed the king a copy of the senatus-consultum (decree by the Senate of Rome), and told him to read it first. But when the king finished reading it, said he wanted to consult with his advisors about the ultimatum. Popillius Laenas is supposed to have drawn a circle around the king in the sand with his cane, and ordered him not to move out of it until a firm answer had been given. The king was astonished at this authoritative proceeding, but, after a few moments' hesitation, said he would do all that the Romans demanded. Upon this Popilius and his entourage all shook him by the hand and greeted him warmly.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Does this make any sense... please let me know, and thanks,

Daniel 9:24a — Seventy weeks are determined

Daniel 9:24b—For your people and your holy city

Gabriel’s introduction in Daniel 9:24 opens one of the most critical time-based prophecies in Scripture. He begins not with symbols or imagery, but with a definitive statement: “Seventy weeks are determined…” This declaration establishes the structured nature of this prophecy, consistent with the interpretive pattern found in Daniel’s earlier chapters. Just as Daniel 2, 7, and 8 present visions followed by clear interpretation sequences, Daniel 9 follows suit—not through symbolic beasts or metal images, but through precise time markers.

This prophecy is not vague, metaphorical, or flexible. It is fixed, measured, and divinely determined—a 490-year time span laid out like a blueprint. The Hebrew word for “determined” (chathak) literally implies something “cut out” or “shaped,” reinforcing the idea that these seventy weeks are carved from history for a very specific purpose. They are set apart by God Himself, placed on a divine timeline to mark the unfolding of salvation history.

Gabriel makes it unmistakably clear who this prophecy is for: “your people and your holy city.” This is not a global prophecy for all nations—it is specifically directed toward the Jewish people and Jerusalem. There is no ambiguity here. The seventy weeks apply to Daniel’s people (the Jews) and Daniel’s city (Jerusalem). This is the covenant context.

This direct address reinforces the covenantal relationship between God and Israel. It also means that the seventy-week clock will unfold within Jewish history, culminating in events that will take place in Jerusalem and through the Jewish Messiah. Any attempt to transplant this prophecy onto a different group or era misaligns it from the clear framework Gabriel has laid out.

This sharpens the urgency and responsibility given to the Jewish nation: they are not left in the dark about the timing of the Messiah. They are entrusted with a precise countdown—a spiritual compass that points directly to the long-awaited Redeemer. Unlike the more general historical timelines in Daniel 2 and 7, which chart the rise and fall of empires, this prophecy divides its 490 years into three distinct sections, each with spiritual and historical significance:

7 weeks (49 years): A period marking the rebuilding of Jerusalem, beginning with the decree to restore and rebuild the city.

62 weeks (434 years): A long span leading up to the appearance of the Messiah, during which the Jewish people would prepare for His arrival.

1 week (7 years): The final and most critical segment, where the Messiah would fulfill the mission of salvation—through His life, death, and resurrection.

This division is not random. It is intentional, designed to provide clear prophetic checkpoints. Each phase moves toward the ultimate goal: the appearance and atoning work of the Messiah. These divisions also serve as guardrails for interpretation, helping the faithful to stay on course and preventing the prophecy from being spiritualized or redefined beyond its original purpose.

As the Jewish people returned from exile, the earlier visions given to Daniel—the chazon (broad prophetic sequence) and the mareh (focused vision of the Messiah)—were no longer to be “sealed” or kept hidden. The seventy-weeks prophecy is the key that unseals the earlier visions. It was given specifically to the Jewish nation so they could study, discern, and prepare.

Well yea, pretty much...except you responded to nothing I said.
The 70th Week would have been a full Week, but in the middle of the Week God's covenant with Israel was broken, terminating the period.

The Roman king is not making a 7 year covenant, but actually confirming the end of sacrifice and offering under the Law in the last Week. And it is in the middle of the Week that this takes place, perhaps ending the final Week.

Dan 9.27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

The Roman king, who presides over the people/army that will destroy the city, will by his actions confirm to Israel that the Messiah has put an end to the Law of sacrifices and offerings. I don't think he is consciously doing this--this is just the impact of his decision to have Jesus crucified. The temple of the veil is rent, and sacrifices and offerings have become passe.

As such, the Roman king is confirming to those who have eyes to see that the Covenant between God and Israel has been broken, and that the 70 Year period is ended.

It's purely a theory on my part, but it is based on what is said. There is, in my mind, no other explanation for the missing 3.5 years of the 70th Week.

 

[CTK]

Well yea, pretty much...except you responded to nothing I said.
The 70th Week would have been a full Week, but in the middle of the Week God's covenant with Israel was broken, terminating the period.

the 70th week was indeed fulfilled or completed. The cross did not stop the timeline for the prophecy, in fact, the prophecy clearly tells us what will happen in the midst of the week.....

The Roman king is not making a 7 year covenant, but actually confirming the end of sacrifice and offering under the Law in the last Week. And it is in the middle of the Week that this takes place, perhaps ending the final Week.

I am not sure we are on the same page here... there is NO 7 year covenant. The verse tells us that the Messiah (He not he), will confirm the covenant DURING the 7 year period. God had set aside the last 7 years of the prophecy for HIm to fulfill HIs mission (9:24). And despite being "cut off" He did fulfill God's mssion for Him.

Dan 9.27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

The Roman king, who presides over the people/army that will destroy the city, will by his actions confirm to Israel that the Messiah has put an end to the Law of sacrifices and offerings. I don't think he is consciously doing this--this is just the impact of his decision to have Jesus crucified. The temple of the veil is rent, and sacrifices and offerings have become passe.

The Roman general Titus will indeed destroy the city and the temple and all of Jerusalem along with over 1 million Jews in 70 AD.

As such, the Roman king is confirming to those who have eyes to see that the Covenant between God and Israel has been broken, and that the 70 Year period is ended.

It's purely a theory on my part, but it is based on what is said. There is, in my mind, no other explanation for the missing 3.5 years of the 70th Week.

This 70 week prophecy in chapter 9 is all about the coming Messiah, and the cross. The ONLY other person mentioned in these 4 verses in the one here below in verse 26 -- Titus.

26.....And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

 

[Douggg]

Well yea, pretty much...except you responded to nothing I said.
The 70th Week would have been a full Week, but in the middle of the Week God's covenant with Israel was broken, terminating the period.

The Roman king is not making a 7 year covenant, but actually confirming the end of sacrifice and offering under the Law in the last Week. And it is in the middle of the Week that this takes place, perhaps ending the final Week.

Dan 9.27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

The Roman king, who presides over the people/army that will destroy the city, will by his actions confirm to Israel that the Messiah has put an end to the Law of sacrifices and offerings. I don't think he is consciously doing this--this is just the impact of his decision to have Jesus crucified. The temple of the veil is rent, and sacrifices and offerings have become passe.

As such, the Roman king is confirming to those who have eyes to see that the Covenant between God and Israel has been broken, and that the 70 Year period is ended.

It's purely a theory on my part, but it is based on what is said. There is, in my mind, no other explanation for the missing 3.5 years of the 70th Week.

The covenant in Daniel 9:27 to be confirmed for 7 years will be the Mt Sinai covenant. Moses made a requirement to confirm the Mt Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle by making a speech to the nation of Israel that God gave the children of Israel the land of Israel as theirs forever. Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The prince that shall come (the little horn person), anointed the king of Israel thought to be messiah (the Antichrist) will make that speech from the temple mount.

 

[Randy Kluth]

the 70th week was indeed fulfilled or completed. The cross did not stop the timeline for the prophecy, in fact, the prophecy clearly tells us what will happen in the midst of the week.....

You're simply asserting your position--not arguing mine. From my pov we are told there are 70 Weeks--not 490 Days/Years. If we were told it would be 490 Days I would agree with you. But no--we are told it will be 70 *Weeks.* And the 70th Week does not have to be a full Week to be viewed as the "70th Week."

So the 70th Week, in my judgment, can be fulfilled as a Half-Week legitimately. You simply bypass this to assert, dogmatically, your own position. This is not discussing--this is just asserting. I could be wrong, but you simply don't address the issue.

I am not sure we are on the same page here... there is NO 7 year covenant. The verse tells us that the Messiah (He not he), will confirm the covenant DURING the 7 year period. God had set aside the last 7 years of the prophecy for HIm to fulfill HIs mission (9:24). And despite being "cut off" He did fulfill God's mssion for Him.

Okay, this is your position--I get that. It is one man's opinion. I think the "he" goes back to its previous use in reference to the people of the prince to come. The "he" is the prince to come, which I believe is the generic Roman king whose army destroyed the city and the sanctuary. This army was identified as such by Jesus in Luke 21--an army that surrounded Jerusalem or was "set up" in the holy place, ie in the area surrounding Jerusalem and the temple, until it broke through the walls and desolated the place.

This king---"he" confirmed God's covenant with Israel which is a rather strange way of confirming a covenant. Normally, a covenant might be recognized by some grand display to highlight its success. But in this case, the confirmation of the covenant was in reverse. It was by the very destruction of God's covenant under the Law that His covenant with Israel was confirmed.

It was by Jesus' death that the sacrifices and offerings were terminated, confirming God's covenant would continue through the Messiah. This king, ie the Roman king or governor, had Jesus "cut off," thus terminating the covenant of the Law. This confirmed that God's eternal covenant would come by Messiah, who we know later rose from the dead.

 

[CTK]

You're simply asserting your position--not arguing mine. From my pov we are told there are 70 Weeks--not 490 Days/Years. If we were told it would be 490 Days I would agree with you. But no--we are told it will be 70 *Weeks.* And the 70th Week does not have to be a full Week to be viewed as the "70th Week."

So the 70th Week, in my judgment, can be fulfilled as a Half-Week legitimately. You simply bypass this to assert, dogmatically, your own position. This is not discussing--this is just asserting. I could be wrong, but you simply don't address the issue.

Okay, this is your position--I get that. It is one man's opinion. I think the "he" goes back to its previous use in reference to the people of the prince to come. The "he" is the prince to come, which I believe is the generic Roman king whose army destroyed the city and the sanctuary. This army was identified by such by Jesus in Luke 21--an army that surrounded Jerusalem or was "set up" in the holy place, ie in the area surrounding Jerusalem and the temple, until it broke through the walls and desolated the place.

This king---"he" confirmed God's covenant with Israel which is a rather strange way of confirming a covenant. Normally, a covenant might be recognized by some grand display to highlight its success. But in this case, the confirmation of the covenant was in reverse. It was by the very destruction of God's covenant under the Law that His covenant with Israel was confirmed.

It was by Jesus' death that the sacrifices and offerings were terminated, confirming God's covenant would continue through the Messiah. This king, ie the Roman king or governor, who had Jesus "cut off," thus terminating the covenant of the Law. This confirmed that God's eternal covenant would come by Messiah, who we know later rose from the dead.

Okay, there is no problem. As you know there are many views and interpretations on these verses, and others, in the book of Daniel. Daniel is full of cryptic verses. Best wishes!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Okay, there is no problem. As you know there are many views and interpretations on these verses, and others, in the book of Daniel. Daniel is full of cryptic verses. Best wishes!

You too. I'm not overly dogmic on this precisely because I'm unsure, and there have been so many conflicting opinions on it. I've held several different positions--this is just my current one! ;) Take care....

 

[Randy Kluth]

The covenant in Daniel 9:27 to be confirmed for 7 years will be the Mt Sinai covenant. Moses made a requirement to confirm the Mt Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle by making a speech to the nation of Israel that God gave the children of Israel the land of Israel as theirs forever. Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Well, for now I'm standing by my statement in post #88. The confirmation of this "covenant" was for the 70th "Week" and not for "7 Days." I think there may be a difference here? Correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[Douggg]

Well, for now I'm standing by my statement in post #88. The confirmation of this "covenant" was for the 70th "Week" and not for "7 Days." I think there may be a difference here? Correct me if I'm wrong?

Randy, I did not mention anything about 7 days. The 70th week of Daniel 9:27 is a week of years.... i.e. the 70th week is 7 years long.

In Deuteronomy 31:9-13, Moses established that the Mt. Sinai covenant was to be confirmed on a 7 year cycle. In Deuteronomy 31, the children of Israel were about to cross the Jordan river to possess the promised land.

As a reminder to all future generations of what the children of Israel went through to possess the promised land, Moses made a law in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 to make a big speech to the nation of Israel, on the feast of tabernacles (a fall feast) about the experience.

I have discussed this with Jews (Judaism) who informed the place of God's choosing (in verse 11) to make the speech is the temple mount.

The speech will be made from the temple mount by the Antichrist, the perceived king of Israel messiah, to be anointed the king of Israel by the false prophet who the Jews will initially think is the return of the prophet Elijah.

Deuteronomy 31:
9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

13 And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Randy, what you most often hear (albeit incorrect) is that the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is a peace treaty by the Antichrist involving Israel and many other nations. That thinking comes from Daniel 8:25 that the little horn will destroy many by peace. Also from 1Thessalonians5:3 the saying peace and safety.

The covenant though to be confirmed is the Mt. Sinai covenant.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, I did not mention anything about 7 days. The 70th week of Daniel 9:27 is a week of years.... i.e. the 70th week is 7 years long.

I think you missed my point. If the point of the 70th Week is that it is a "Week" instead of a full "7 year period," then the 70th Week can be fulfilled in less than 7 years. If you'll read post #88 you will see this more clearly.

So it depends on how you define the "70th Week." Does it have to be a full Week to be the "70th Week?" No. Jesus was raised on the 3rd day, and yet the 3rd day was *not* a full day.

You may believe as you wish. However, you don't seem to understand my position here? The 70th Week would normally be a 7 year period. But it is not so if we're only referring to a 70th Week confirmation. That could take place in the middle of the 70th Week. Right or wrong, that's how I'm looking at it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think you missed my point. If the point of the 70th Week is that it is a "Week" instead of a full "7 year period," then the 70th Week can be fulfilled in less than 7 years. If you'll read post #88 you will see this more clearly.

So it depends on how you define the "70th Week." Does it have to be a full Week to be the "70th Week?" No. Jesus was raised on the 3rd day, and yet the 3rd day was *not* a full day.

You may believe as you wish. However, you don't seem to understand my position here? The 70th Week would normally be a 7 year period. But it is not so if we're only referring to a 70th Week confirmation. That could take place in the middle of the 70th Week. Right or wrong, that's how I'm looking at it.

You are correct that there is nothing written to suggest that something has to happen and something has to be fulfilled throughout the 70th week right up until the last day of the 70th week.

I think it's a viable position for one to have if they believe that the new covenant was confirmed by Christ's death in the midst of the 70th week and that is what confirmed the new covenant and was the final fulfillment of the 70 week prophecy. It seems that the things that needed to be fulfilled within 70 weeks just had to be fulfilled at some point before the 70 weeks were over. People assume that the prophecy would not be completely fulfilled until the last day of the 70th week, but that is not necessarily the case. I personally think the preaching of the gospel in Israel after Christ's death and resurrection is what completed the confirmation of the new covenant, but I have no problem with the idea that it was confirmed in the midst of the 70th week when He was crucified which established the new covenant and made the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are correct that there is nothing written to suggest that something has to happen and something has to be fulfilled throughout the 70th week right up until the last day of the 70th week.

I think it's a viable position for one to have if they believe that the new covenant was confirmed by Christ's death in the midst of the 70th week and that is what confirmed the new covenant and was the final fulfillment of the 70 week prophecy. It seems that the things that needed to be fulfilled within 70 weeks just had to be fulfilled at some point before the 70 weeks were over. People assume that the prophecy would not be completely fulfilled until the last day of the 70th week, but that is not necessarily the case. I personally think the preaching of the gospel in Israel after Christ's death and resurrection is what completed the confirmation of the new covenant, but I have no problem with the idea that it was confirmed in the midst of the 70th week when He was crucified which established the new covenant and made the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete.

You go into my list of "good guys!" I know we've disagreed on many things but you are the *only guy* who has taken the time to at least consider the merits of my position here! And this is over a long period of time.

I may or may not be right--that is not the issue I'm speaking of. I'm speaking of the honesty, generotiy, kindness, and dilligence it takes to actually carefully consider a position, even if nobody around is even considering it.

Sometimes a view may seem way out of whack because of the present popular position of a doctrine. But after careful scrutiny it is discovered that centuries ago the position was in vogue.

This has literally happened to me. I once held to an unpopular position due to the strength of arguments made by a minority, and then discovered, to my surprise, that this position was the majority view among the Church Fathers.

But there were some things that the Church Fathers could not see, due to their own period and attendant confusion. So the highest authority is Scripture. But careful attention to an argument is equally important, in my view. Thanks much! :)

 

[CTK]

You go into my list of "good guys!" I know we've disagreed on many things but you are the *only guy* who has taken the time to at least consider the merits of my position here! And this is over a long period of time.

I may or may not be right--that is not the issue I'm speaking of. I'm speaking of the honesty, generotiy, kindness, and dilligence it takes to actually carefully consider a position, even if nobody around is even considering it.

Sometimes a view may seem way out of whack because of the present popular position of a doctrine. But after carefi; scritomu, it is discovered that centuries ago the position was in vogue.

This has literally happened to me. I once held to an unpopular position due to the strength of arguments made by a minority, and then discovered, to my surprise, that this position was the majority view among the Church Fathers.

But there were some things that the Church Fathers could not see, due to their own period and attendant confusion. So the highest authority is Scripture. But careful attention to an argument is equally important, in my view. Thanks much! :)

For what it is woth.....

In chapter 9, Daniel provides us with the 70 weeks of years prophecy. This prophecy would complete God's plan of restoration for His people. They would have already spent 70 years in exile, then they would spend exactly another 80 years from the decree from Cyrus to the decree from Artaxeses. And this is a critical series of time elements (but that is another discussion). Consequently, when the decree in 457 BC was given to the Jews to restore and rebuild the city / temple, etc., there would be exactly 490 years until the end of this prophecy. Not sure how much you might be aware of this but there are a few very important points to mention:


1) The 490 year prophecy would be broken into 3 separate but continuous periods of 7, 62 and 1 week (each week equals 7 years), that totals the 490 years. And God would give this prophecy to reveal what would be accomplished during these ;separate period of the prophecy.

a) the first 7 weeks or 49 years, the Jews were given the responsbility to rebuild the walls, streets, the temple, etc. All the physical elements of Jerusalem that were either destroyed or taken away by the Babylonians,

b) althought there is no mention of the "activities" that must be restored during the longest period of 62 weeks or 434 years, the Jews would indeed reinstute all of their sacrificial ceremoies, sabbatical cycles, 7 feast days, etc. Meaning, God would ensure that by the end of the 69th week or exactly 483 years after the decree, Jerusalem, the Jews would once again be completely restored as they were prior to the Babylonian exile. (and of course, this is only one reason there can be no gap between any of these 3 time elements),

c) However, and this is so purposeful, there is only one piece of furniture / element that was taken away so the Babylonians could not gain access to it. And it was also the very first item that was taken away BEFORE they came to conquer Jerusalem. Prior to their arrival, Jeremiah would enter the Holy of Holies and remove and hide the Ark of the Covenant.


d) why is this so important? Because Goe would require everything that was either destroyed or taken away to be restoered by His people prior to His arrival on the 1st day of the 70th week. The last week or 7 years of the prophecy was "set aside" by God for His Messiah to come and fulfill His God given mission revealed in 9:24. And I am sure you can see that this was the first piece of furniture taken away and the last to be restored but not by a golden covered wooden Ark, but by the Messiah. The Messiah would be the only One who could restore the Presence of God back in the sanctuary.


2) So on the first day of the 70th week He would be baptized in the Jordan and begin His ministry. But as you know, He would be "cut off" or crucified exactly 3.5 years into this last week. But He still would fulfill His mission to God.

3) So we have a time prophecy of 490 years that is meant to reveal the how and when the city and His people and their way of life was fully restored PRIOR to His arrival. Obviously, He could not have possibly completed any of His mission if Jerusalem, the Temple, His people, the sacraficial ceremonies, etc., were not yet READY for His arrival... but they were.

4) Despite His crucifixion just 3.5 years prior to the end of the 490 year prophecy (486.5 years), this prophecy was indeed over. Everything that was to be accomplished - by the Jews (physical elements), and by the Messiah (Ark and His mission in 9:24) were indeed fulfilled... there is nothing left for this prophecy that needs to be completed...... (so you are indeed correct - the 70 weeks prophecy is done),

5) However, there is still one more element that MUST be completed. I am sure you are aware that when the decree by Artaxeres to restore and rebuild the city / walls / temple, etc., in 457 BC was given, this is also the exact start date of the 4th and final Great Jubilee Cycle for the Jews. Meaning, at the end of the same time period (end of the last week of the prophecy), there would also be the completion of this 4th / final Jubilee. And as I mentioned above, at the time of the cross, the counting of this final Jubilee would come exactly to 486.5 years, thus, the 4th Great Jubilee cyle would be "short" by exactly 3.5 years. And this is critical, because unless this entire 490 years are completed, the Messiah cannot return (Leviticus).

5) So what is holding or stopping the "counting" of the remaining 3.5 years to finish the 490 years? The counting of the remaining 3.5 years was stopped because the Jews rejected their Messiah. They would no longer be in "good standing" (my words), with their God. This would sever their relationship with Him for the next 2000 years or so (Times of the Gentiles). And notice, this is NOT a requirement or fulfillment that the Lord can accomplish... this can only be completed by His people (no, not the church either). Meaning, after the time of the Gentiles is over, God will "remove the blindness from the eyes of His people" no different than what He did for Paul on the road to Damascus. They will recognize the One they had pierced. At that time, the clock will again start and for exactly 3.5 years afte the end of the time of the Gentiles, they will go out into the world (no different than Paul) and preach the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. After these 3.5 years, the Messiah will return and it will be judgement day for all. And this is another long discussion, but these Jews are identified in Revelation as the 144,000.

So, the 70 weeks of years prophecy is indeed fulfilled, however, the 490 years of the 4th and final Great Jubilee still requires another 3.5 years before it is fulfilled.

 

[Randy Kluth]

For what it is woth.....

In chapter 9, Daniel provides us with the 70 weeks of years prophecy. This prophecy would complete God's plan of restoration for His people. They would have already spent 70 years in exile, then they would spend exactly another 80 years from the decree from Cyrus to the decree from Artaxeses. And this is a critical series of time elements (but that is another discussion). Consequently, when the decree in 457 BC was given to the Jews to restore and rebuild the city / temple, etc., there would be exactly 490 years until the end of this prophecy. Not sure how much you might be aware of this but there are a few very important points to mention:

I've been discussing this for years on Christian Chat, at the very least. I've had very many discussions on it--probably more than most. I have no idea how knowledgeable you are, either?

1) The 490 year prophecy would be broken into 3 separate but continuous periods of 7, 62 and 1 week (each week equals 7 years), that totals the 490 years.

So you've already missed the point. There doesn't have to be 490 years in 70 Weeks. There has to be at least 483 years in 69 Weeks--the 70th Week does *not* have to represent a full week. As I said elsewhere, Jesus rose on the 3rd day. He didn't have to wait to rise until after a full 24 hour period of the 3rd day!

And God would give this prophecy to reveal what would be accomplished during these ;separate period of the prophecy.

a) the first 7 weeks or 49 years, the Jews were given the responsbility to rebuild the walls, streets, the temple, etc. All the physical elements of Jerusalem that were either destroyed or taken away by the Babylonians,

b) althought there is no mention of the "activities" that must be restored during the longest period of 62 weeks or 434 years, the Jews would indeed reinstute all of their sacrificial ceremoies, sabbatical cycles, 7 feast days, etc. Meaning, God would ensure that by the end of the 69th week or exactly 483 years after the decree, Jerusalem, the Jews would once again be completely restored as they were prior to the Babylonian exile. (and of course, this is only one reason there can be no gap between any of these 3 time elements),

I don't agree. The temple and the city had to be fully functioning by the end of the 1st period of 7 Weeks, or 49 years. Much of the temple had been restored already by the time of Artaxerxes's decree in 457 BC. His decree ensured the temple rituals were properly in place, and that the city of Jerusalem would be fully built and politically organized, which took place in the years immediately following his decree.

After the temple and city were rebuilt and functioning in the time right after Artaxerxes there was a long period in which they continued to function as such up until the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry in the final "Week." That final Week began with the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry, and that Week did not have to be a complete Week to be called the "70th Week." There was no need for the 70th Week to be a complete Week, and thus no need to count a full 490 years.

c) However, and this is so purposeful, there is only one piece of furniture / element that was taken away so the Babylonians could not gain access to it. And it was also the very first item that was taken away BEFORE they came to conquer Jerusalem. Prior to their arrival, Jeremiah would enter the Holy of Holies and remove and hide the Ark of the Covenant.

I don't think so. God destroyed the Ark so that it would no longer be the main symbol of the Old Covenant, in my opinion.

d) why is this so important? Because Goe would require everything that was either destroyed or taken away to be restoered by His people prior to His arrival on the 1st day of the 70th week. The last week or 7 years of the prophecy was "set aside" by God for His Messiah to come and fulfill His God given mission revealed in 9:24. And I am sure you can see that this was the first piece of furniture taken away and the last to be restored but not by a golden covered wooden Ark, but by the Messiah. The Messiah would be the only One who could restore the Presence of God back in the sanctuary.

There is no record of Jesus being the "replacement ark" for the actual ark. Jesus said that no part of the Law should be minimized while the Law was still in effect, which would of course require a wooden ark to be in the Holy of Holies.

2) So on the first day of the 70th week He would be baptized in the Jordan and begin His ministry. But as you know, He would be "cut off" or crucified exactly 3.5 years into this last week. But He still would fulfill His mission to God.

3) So we have a time prophecy of 490 years that is meant to reveal the how and when the city and His people and their way of life was fully restored PRIOR to His arrival. Obviously, He could not have possibly completed any of His mission if Jerusalem, the Temple, His people, the sacraficial ceremonies, etc., were not yet READY for His arrival... but they were.

4) Despite His crucifixion just 3.5 years prior to the end of the 490 year prophecy (486.5 years), this prophecy was indeed over. Everything that was to be accomplished - by the Jews (physical elements), and by the Messiah (Ark and His mission in 9:24) were indeed fulfilled... there is nothing left for this prophecy that needs to be completed...... (so you are indeed correct - the 70 weeks prophecy is done),

I appreciate this. I don't know whether we're correct, but I agree with you that at the Cross, the Old Covenant was fulfilled--not "restored" but "fulfilled."

5) However, there is still one more element that MUST be completed. I am sure you are aware that when the decree by Artaxeres to restore and rebuild the city / walls / temple, etc., in 457 BC was given, this is also the exact start date of the 4th and final Great Jubilee Cycle for the Jews. Meaning, at the end of the same time period (end of the last week of the prophecy), there would also be the completion of this 4th / final Jubilee. And as I mentioned above, at the time of the cross, the counting of this final Jubilee would come exactly to 486.5 years, thus, the 4th Great Jubilee cyle would be "short" by exactly 3.5 years. And this is critical, because unless this entire 490 years are completed, the Messiah cannot return (Leviticus).

Where do the Scriptures say this? It's not there!

5) So what is holding or stopping the "counting" of the remaining 3.5 years to finish the 490 years? The counting of the remaining 3.5 years was stopped because the Jews rejected their Messiah. They would no longer be in "good standing" (my words), with their God. This would sever their relationship with Him for the next 2000 years or so (Times of the Gentiles). And notice, this is NOT a requirement or fulfillment that the Lord can accomplish... this can only be completed by His people (no, not the church either). Meaning, after the time of the Gentiles is over, God will "remove the blindness from the eyes of His people" no different than what He did for Paul on the road to Damascus. They will recognize the One they had pierced. At that time, the clock will again start and for exactly 3.5 years afte the end of the time of the Gentiles, they will go out into the world (no different than Paul) and preach the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. After these 3.5 years, the Messiah will return and it will be judgement day for all. And this is another long discussion, but these Jews are identified in Revelation as the 144,000.

Keep in mind that God is not keeping Salvation away from Jewish *individuals,* but only from the *Jewish nation.* This is in fact the fate of all nations called of God over time, who eventually capitulate to the leaven within.

So, the 70 weeks of years prophecy is indeed fulfilled, however, the 490 years of the 4th and final Great Jubilee still requires another 3.5 years before it is fulfilled.

I find no evidence of this in Scriptures. But thanks for your proposed ideas--some good, some I think are wrong, and some are questionable. It's worth raising the issues, I think.

 

[Douggg]

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You go into my list of "good guys!" I know we've disagreed on many things but you are the *only guy* who has taken the time to at least consider the merits of my position here! And this is over a long period of time.

I have considered it off and on since I first saw @David Taylor suggest it years ago on the old Bible Forums site. I'm fine with that view even though I think the preaching of the gospel in Israel occurs in the rest of the 70th week after Christ's death and I see that as part of the confirming of the new covenant. The text doesn't specify that the confirming of the covenant has to actually take the whole 7 years, so that's why I think either view is valid.

I may or may not be right--that is not the issue I'm speaking of. I'm speaking of the honesty, generotiy, kindness, and dilligence it takes to actually carefully consider a position, even if nobody around is even considering it.

I don't see why people won't at least consider it since, again, the text does not specifically indicate that it takes the whole 7 years to confirm the covenant. Of course, many people think it's talking about a 7 year covenant that fulfills the 70th week in the future rather than the new covenant being confirmed during the 70th week. I couldn't disagree with that view more. They have an Antichrist confirming some kind of covenant or peace treaty instead of Christ confirming the new covenant. They couldn't be more wrong if they tried, in my opinion.

Sometimes a view may seem way out of whack because of the present popular position of a doctrine. But after careful scrutiny it is discovered that centuries ago the position was in vogue.

This has literally happened to me. I once held to an unpopular position due to the strength of arguments made by a minority, and then discovered, to my surprise, that this position was the majority view among the Church Fathers.

But there were some things that the Church Fathers could not see, due to their own period and attendant confusion. So the highest authority is Scripture. But careful attention to an argument is equally important, in my view. Thanks much! :)

No problem. All views are at least worth giving some consideration. Some are more obviously false than others, but it doesn't hurt to at least consider any view that is presented.

 

[CTK]

I have considered it off and on since I first saw @David Taylor suggest it years ago on the old Bible Forums site. I'm fine with that view even though I think the preaching of the gospel in Israel occurs in the rest of the 70th week after Christ's death and I see that as part of the confirming of the new covenant. The text doesn't specify that the confirming of the covenant has to actually take the whole 7 years, so that's why I think either view is valid.


I don't see why people won't at least consider it since, again, the text does not specifically indicate that it takes the whole 7 years to confirm the covenant. Of course, many people think it's talking about a 7 year covenant that fulfills the 70th week in the future rather than the new covenant being confirmed during the 70th week. I couldn't disagree with that view more. They have an Antichrist confirming some kind of covenant or peace treaty instead of Christ confirming the new covenant. They couldn't be more wrong if they tried, in my opinion.


No problem. All views are at least worth giving some consideration. Some are more obviously false than others, but it doesn't hurt to at least consider any view that is presented.

For what it is worth…

The last 7 years or the final week in the 70 weeks of years prophecy was specifically “set aside” for the Messiah to complete His God given mission as provided in 9:24.

The entire 69 weeks or 483 years of the prophecy were assigned to His people to restore not only all the physical elements that were either destroyed or taken away by the Babylonians. And they indeed fulfilled their responsibilities of the prophecy.

The only element they could not possibly restore would be the Ark of the covenant that was taken and hidden by Jeremiah before Babylon came to Jerusalem.

And Jesus would arrive on the very first day of the 70th week to begin His Ministry. He would be the only One capable of restoring the Presence of God in the sanctuary.

But we all know that He would be crucified exactly 3.5 years into His ministry. But that did not mean He did not fulfill His 6 requirements.

But regarding this specific issue of whether He had to confirm the New Covenant by being present the entire 7 years (or any other requirements of 9:24), is to be considered to have been met.

And this is why God gave us the “mareh” vision in Daniel 8. Most know this as the 2300 evenings and mornings vision. This specifically relates to this issue and of course, the daily sacrifices as well as the annual atonement sacrifice on Yom Kipper.

The exact calculation for the 2300 days vision confirms that Jesus would fulfill 9:24 despite being “cut off.”

Formula:

1) the “set up” of the AOD (crucifixion of the Messiah) is the first day of His ministry.

2) the end date for this calculation would have been the day of Passover on the final 7th Passover that would have taken place within the final week of the prophecy. Meaning of course, had He not be crucified, then He would have completed the requirements by attending all 7 Feast days within the final week.

3) the Messiah was baptized in the Jordan exactly 6 months prior to His first Passover. Thus, if you take the total number of days from the start of His ministry to the final Passover (the 7th , which would take place exactly 6 months before the end of the final week), you would get 2,340 days.

4) the only remaining element to consider is the 40 days. But this is addressed when Jesus would go immediately after being baptized into the desert for 40 days to be tempted by the devil. In other words, even though Jesus never sinned, He still had to fulfill the Levitical requirements of purification. Since He was our Passover Lamb, our High Priest, our Temple, each of them had to pass a purification test before Passover. And of course, Jesus passed the test in the desert and would be considered sinless for when He would be crucified on the 4th Passover.

So, the 2,340 days less the 40 days in the desert gives us exactly 2300 days. This assures us He met all the requirements despite being cut off. Only God could make this stuff up!