Its as if you people stop using the brain God gave you. You can read can you not? James says works complete salvation. If faith was sufficient it would not need completion. Its not faith OR works its faith AND works. No where does scripture says faith alone. You cant accept you've been duped but its not by me. Its sad to watch you people
Is it possible to lose salvation?
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Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
Matt 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Please be careful what you say.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Proverbs 15:14
The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, but the mouths of fools feed on folly.
I agree.
Francis was a small tragedy...so let's see about this one.
Maybe only the believers will be in the pews from now on.
I know priests that have refused to go along with communion for remarrieds
and blessings for SScouples. OTOH, I know a priest that believes very much
in the Jesus Loves Everyone and is only love position, but he's retired for over
a year now and many find him very comforting.
I believe God will be merciful and not judge those that have been led astray by
their very pastors since bible study is not encouraged...but I'm not 100% sure about
this since our conscience should also guide us.
Oh my gosh.Proverbs 15:14
The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, but the mouths of fools feed on folly.
You should quit right now!!!
@pandaflower, like many other Christians, can't seem to understand the difference between the fact that works do not save anyone
and
after one comes to believe in God he is commanded to do good works.
They like Ephesians 2:8-9
but forget to post Ephesians 2:10
Just as a reminder to them, here it is:
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Big BoyThat's rich coming from people who talk to the dead among other occult practices!
1. Christians do not believe we "die" after death.
Saints (all Christians) are in heaven and alive after death.
Whether or not they can hear us is a debatable issue.
2. Occult is rather strong. It means witchcraft, magical powers and the such.
I don't know of any belief in Catholicism that would correspond to this.
If you can name one, I'd be interested.
Just to clarify...
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Sorry to advise you pandaflower....
But ALL Protestants believe Luther was correct.
However, in the past couple of hundred years....
even Luther's beliefs have been challenged.
Luther DID NOT believe in OSAS.
A new ideology that is not biblical...not even for true Protestants.... who DO believe that salvation can be forfeited.
Not going back to get the entire convo between you and the other member...
However,,,why would you say that what the bible teaches comes mostly from the CC?
Don't Protestants believe in doing good works?
You keep saying that you do even though you debate this continuously.
Let's check out a poll on whether or not Christians believe good works are necessary:
52% of Protestants believe good works are necessary for salvation:
Ahead of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, a majority of U.S. Protestants, 52 percent, believe that both good deeds and faith are necessary for salvation, a new Pew Research Center poll reports. Meanwhile, 52 percent of the U.S. Protestants polled hold that Christians need the guidance of church teaching and tradition in conjunction with the Bible.
Today, according to the Pew poll, only 30 percent of U.S. Protestants believe in both sola fide and sola scriptura. Another 35 percent believe in either “faith alone” or “scripture alone” but not the other. The remaining 36 percent believe in neither. By comparison, of the U.S. Catholics surveyed, 81 percent believe that both good deeds and faith are necessary for salvation, while 75 percent believe Christians need the Bible and tradition.
The new findings stress that what were once church-dividing teachings no longer define the majority of American Protestant belief. White evangelicals are more likely to hold fast to both sola scriptura and sola fide (44 percent) compared to their white mainline Protestant (20 percent) and black Protestant counterparts (19 percent). Yet the data show that American Christians, in general, are more likely to agree than disagree on these basic Christian beliefs.
source: Poll: Most Protestants and Catholics believe faith and works are necessary for salvation
It may be "rich" it's also true. Show me where anything you believe was taught before the looney little monkThat's rich coming from people who talk to the dead among other occult practices!
This isn't the impression some of your statements have left with folk on this thread. As I pointed out in my last round of posts to you, some of your assertions about obedience and salvation were issued in a very absolute manner, giving the impression that what you deny above is exactly what you believe. Here again are some of the statements you've made that have fostered the thinking that you do believe what you deny above that you do:
"...those that DO NOT obey God WILL forfeit their salvation."
"...Christians that do NOT obey the Moral Law will not be seeing heaven."
"Satan's greatest lie is that we could disobey God and still be saved.
Those who believe in God will be saved....
Those who do not obey God will see the wrath of God.
John 3.36"
I get that it's handy to be able to slip and slide around your statements, to equivocate about them, seeming to assert one thing but then retreating from your statements to a less radical, more defensible position. This is the Motte and Bailey tactic, which is a fallacious form of argument - another one among the many you employ in your posts to this thread.
I would have bet money this would be your response. Your flat dismissal here of the "how far is too far?" question has to be your response because it is an impossible problem for your view. You don't know how much sin in the life of a believer ejects them from God's family and kingdom. God's word doesn't ever say. Why would it? Losing one's salvation isn't possible. But you are determined, nonetheless, that Christians should live in fear of crossing a line that neither you nor anyone else can locate.
It could be, then, that you've crossed the line into lost salvation yourself. In fact, if Jesus is right (which he is) and you must be perfect as God is perfect (Matt. 5:48), then it is certain you have crossed it and are outside God's family. But this would mean you're urging others to a standard of obedience you haven't kept yourself and to retain a salvation for themselves you've been unable to retain.
It's interesting, too, that you refuse to hear what I've been communicating about obedience to God. Again and again, I've indicated that Christians are commanded of God to obey Him and that they should do so. But here you are again, trying to frame the difference between your view and mine in the Strawman way you've been doing all along, which is that you think Christians ought to obey God (and must, in fact, if they want to stay saved) and I think the opposite, that Christians can just go off and live like the devil, if they like.
On my end, anyway, I've never indicated that a genuinely born-again believer may carry on in sin. I've certainly never encouraged Christians to do so. Instead, I've pointed out repeatedly that they ought to obey God's commands. And so, the more I state this, the more your persistent misrepresentation of my statement becomes both apparent and bizarre.
Yes, you have. Though, not a precise one. See above.
As I've already explained in earlier posts, "abiding in Christ" is another way of saying "saved," or "born-again." Just like a branch is the "off-spring" of the tree from which it grows, a child of God is the "off-spring" of Christ out of which they grow. No tree branch has ever produced itself, and no Christian has ever made themselves a child of God. As the Bible states repeatedly, there is only one Savior who saves; there are no co-Saviors (Jn. 16:4; Ac. 4:12; 1 Ti. 2:5).
What, then, can it mean for a branch in the Vine to cease to "remain in him"? Well, as I've explained in past posts, this is speaking of the loss of the benefits and by-products of salvation. In particular, as Jesus points out, not continuing in him means, not a loss of salvation, but a loss of fruitfulness. One who does not remain in fellowship with Christ, fixing their eyes upon him (He. 12:1-3), beholding his glory and being changed by the Holy Spirit into the same image (2 Co. 3:18; Ro. 8:29), by the life and work of the Spirit manifesting the "treasure" of Christ in their daily living (2 Co. 4:7-11), cannot bear spiritual fruit that is pleasing to God.
Every Christian is brought into relationship with God through the Savior, Jesus Christ, but this doesn't automatically bring them into fellowship with God. No, a Christian can be a "branch" in the "Vine" but cut-off from the fruit-producing "sap" of the Vine because they are not "remaining" in the Vine, which is to say, I believe, not continuing in fellowship with Christ. This is, essentially, the difference between "living in the Spirit" (saved) and "walking in the Spirit" (fellowship with God). See Galatians 5:16 and 25; it is the difference between being a son of the Father while in a "far country" and being held in the Father's joyful embrace and kissed on the cheek (Lu. 15:11-32); it is the difference between being a wandering sheep of the Shepherd and being carried in his arms to the sheepfold. And so on.
You are correct that the language of John 15:5 implies choice - the choice to be a "fruitful branch" in daily, personal fellowship with Christ, or merely in relationship to him as an "unfruitful branch."
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The absolute way of stating your view, here, from which you then retreat is, as I said, the specious Motte-and-Bailey tactic. It's also a kind of equivocation/gaslighting that asserts a radical and indefensible view while maintaining a more modest, more defensible fall-back view between which you move, back-and-forth, but claiming, as you do, that you're not. This is very... slippery argumentation.
Where in this passage from Romans 8 does Paul say anything about a Christian losing their salvation? Nowhere. You're reading a saved-and-lost view into Paul's words, not drawing this view out of what he wrote. Yes, those who live according to the flesh will die (vs. 13), but you're assuming that this dying is "losing salvation." Where does Paul indicate this in the passage above? Again, nowhere.
This is to Jews under the Old Covenant, not to Christians. I've already shown this a couple of times now in this thread.
Where in this verse does Paul say anything about a Christian losing their salvation? For a third time, now, nowhere. Once again, you're assuming this is what Paul is talking about rather than taking his meaning from what he's actually written. To understand what Paul meant here, read 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. The last verse is especially interesting to the discussion of this thread:
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Loss of salvation isn't what Paul says is the consequence of "building upon the foundation of Christ" with cheap, "flammable" materials. What such a "builder" receives is nothing, his reward lost to the fiery testing of God, but he himself is saved. Why? Because the foundation on which he stands and builds is Christ, not himself.
Deflection.
Please answer the point I made. If you don't know where the line into lost-salvation is, how do you know you haven't yourself crossed it and are lost? God's standard for accepting any of us is perfection, as Jesus said (Matthew 5:48). But as you admit, "No one is perfect," which, of course, includes you. But if you're not meeting God's standard, your own false doctrine says you're out of His family and kingdom. In fact, under your mistaken doctrine, no one is getting into heaven.
But, then, God's word tells us that all of His children are fully, perfectly redeemed, justified and sanctified in Jesus Christ (1 Co. 1:30; Eph. 1:1-13; 2 Co. 5:21). In Jesus, God meets His own standard, placing into Christ all those who will, by faith, "put him on" (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27), clothing them in Jesus's perfection and thus making them all acceptable to Himself. And so, Paul wrote:
Romans 5:19-21
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Equivocation. Motte-and-Bailey tactic.
See above.
Not cute. Devastating. To your mistaken doctrine.
Do you understand what Jesus meant in Matthew 5:48? It doesn't look like it...
Yes, and I've offered many verses from God's word that makes what I've stated abundantly clear. You're unwillingness to accept what they say doesn't make them false, however stridently you object to them. And when I've inspected your proof-texts, all I see is that you're making assumptions about their meaning rather than reading them as they are and allowing their immediate context to define/constrain their meaning.
Paul never said that it ought never to be that where sin abounds grace abounds much more. He said only that the fact of the super-abundance of grace ought not to induce believers to take advantage of it. As the record of the NT illustrates, however, and as you've admitted, Christians sin - and sometimes very grievously - but they remained Christians nonetheless (1 Co. 3:5, 6, 11; Ga. 3:3; Rev. 3, etc.) precisely because "where sin abounded grace did much more abound." Christians ought never to take advantage of God's grace, but if they do, His grace super-exceeds their sin. To the fear-mongering, self-righteous legalist, this truth is anathema, but to Paul and to the One who inspired his writings, it is the Gospel.
Where does Paul say anything here about lost salvation? Nowhere. You're assuming - again - that "suffered shipwreck" means "lost their salvation." In the next verse, however, Paul wrote:
1 Timothy 1:20
20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Here are those who've suffered "shipwreck" whom Paul delivers over to Satan, not so Satan can take the men's salvation, not because they've lost their salvation and are thus "fair game" for the devil, but so that these two men may learn not to blaspheme. "Shipwreck," then, in context, doesn't suggest "salvation-lost" but only a condition wherein a harsh lesson is in order.
1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
Does any of what Paul describes of those who departed the faith - lying, hypocrisy, heeding deceiving spirits, seared conscience - suggest genuine salvation? Not to me. And Paul doesn't ever say that those he described in the passage above were brethren. The apostle John, though, points out:
1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
In light of all this, your assumption, @GodsGrace, that Paul is speaking of genuinely born-again believers who "depart the faith" is not borne out. This is what has happened with every proof-text you've offered.
Once more, you offer a verse that says nothing about a Christian losing their salvation. All this verse describes is people who want to be taught doctrines that suit themselves - rather like yourself, @GodsGrace.
Oh, dear. You don't seem to understand the Gospel. Heaven is heaven because God is there. The fellowship with us He has begun through Jesus while we dwell on this planet (1 Co. 1:9; 2 Co. 13:14; 1 Jn. 1:3; Rev. 3:20) continues for all eternity in the afterlife. This is what heaven is: eternal, unhindered, joyful fellowship with God Almighty. Not gold streets, not relatives or friends, not a life that never ends, but God. You get to heaven through Jesus in order to enjoy God forever. This is the Gospel.
Genesis 15:1
1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
Psalm 73:24-25
24 You will guide me with Your counsel,
And afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but You?
And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You.
26 My flesh and my heart fail;
But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
Philippians 3:7-8
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
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You've left out what you wrote, upon which I'm commenting.
No, as you do with Scripture, you're grossly misrepresenting our exchange here.
I responded:
"No, you're the one writing the above, not Jesus. The line of reasoning you've laid out is yours, not his. And for the many biblical reasons I've given in my posts in this thread, your conclusion is grossly false - and obnoxious.
You have no idea what the character of my life is. None.
Quite frankly, you ought to be ashamed of yourself for writing such a thing. Goodness. How far into unChristlike behavior your error has made you go!"
John 14:15 doesn't say, as you do: "Good works are necessary." This interpretation of Christ's words is illegitimate, adding greatly to what Christ actually said. And your insinuation that I don't love Christ is, as I said, a statement from deep ignorance and one that is very obnoxious.
This is, as I said, quite obvious from the host of fallacious forms of reasoning that you employ in your posts. To repeat myself:
"It's been very... interesting watching you Strawman, jump to conclusions, equivocate, eisegete, gaslight, employ secondhand ad hominem ("Jesus says this, not me") and then project many of these things onto those critical of your view. What's even more interesting, I think, is how much in denial of these things you are. In this, you demonstrate a very...biblical sort of blindness."
This is a glaring Strawman of my view of the eternal security of the believer. Never have I ever indicated that "obedience is not important because we will remain saved anyway." This is your cartoonish version of what I've written, though I've corrected it several times now in this thread. It seems, as your view faces the scriptural pressure of God's word and collapses, you have only your Strawman left to repeat reflexively, over and over.
Your Strawman is also a Boogey Man, which is another fallacious manuever of argument where you assert that to believe OSAS is to necessarily also embrace your false and repugnant extrapolation from the doctrine given in the quotation above. But I've held to, and taught, OSAS for decades and never once urged others to think that their eternal security in Jesus was a license to sin, or that obedience to God was unimportant. Instead, as God's word says, holiness is vital to enjoying fellowship with God (He. 12:14b; 1 Pe. 1:15-16; 3:12) and this truth I live in daily and urge fellow believers to live in, too.
The entire chapter is speaking of false prophets within the Church, not born-again believers.
Here, again, you've misapplied Scripture.
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No slipping and sliding.
All of my above statements is what the NT teaches.
Here they are again, just to make sure:
"...those that DO NOT obey God WILL forfeit their salvation."
"...Christians that do NOT obey the Moral Law will not be seeing heaven."
"Satan's greatest lie is that we could disobey God and still be saved.
Those who believe in God will be saved....
Those who do not obey God will see the wrath of God.
John 3.36"
Thanks for repeating what the NT teaches.
Not going to go back to see what I posted.
how far is too far sounds like the same old strawman those such as yourself keep bringing up.
If YOU want to experiment with God to see how far you could go and still retain salvation...
THAT is up to you.
And fear?
I NEVER mentioned fear.
and
I never mentioned sinning.
You're putting words into my mouth and I don't appreciate it.
Let me repeat:
WE MUST OBEY GOD after we become saved.
Then why are we debating?
I've asked you this a few times now.
If you believe Christians are to obey God...
why not just say so?
WHAT are you debating me about?
Well, you've stated that Christians could go off and live like the devil...this is YOUR idea of what the NT teaches.
But it does NOT.
And, BTW, those that are living like the devil are NOT Christian.
You just stated above that they could.
Make up your mind.
OUGHT TO OBEY God's commands?
OUGHT?
No sir.
Jesus said the branches that DO NOT produce fruit are CUT OFF, dried up, and burned.
Burned.
NOT missing some benefit or other.
JESUS SAID that the branches are cut off, dried up and burned.
John 15:5-6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
You shouldn't listen to ME
but you should pay attention to what JESUS states.
Those that like to call themselves a Christian AND not obey AND sin
like to understand scripture in a totally different way than it's meant to mean.
Like branches missing out on some benefit when Jesus says they will be burned.
Incredible.
Yes sir.
And if you do not bear fruit,
you will be CUT OFF, put aside, dried up and burned.
John 15:5-6
No sir.
I read nothing in the NT about this FELLOWSHIP you speak of and you've not provided any scripture.
Jesus said that unfruitful branches will be CUT OFF, put aside, dried, and burned.
No talk of fellowship here.
Oh. This is new.
Perhaps you could post some scripture that states that God is our buddy.
No sir.
John 15:5 STATES, not implies, that unfruitful branches will be cut off, dried, and burned.
Well, here is what I posted again,
which is what JESUS said...not me.
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Seems to me you have a problem with Jesus' statement since you keep speaking about it instead of just accepting it.
I truly do not care about how you live your life.
I'm here to post the truth about what the NT teaches.
yes sir.
JESUS said that IF we love Him we will keep His commandments.
His commandments include good works.
Perhaps you missed Matthew 25??
So if you do NOT do good works...
you are NOT keeping Jesus' commandments...
and John 14:15 states what this means...
NOT ME.
Again:
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Interesting.
Every verse I post is misapplied scripture.
this convesation is ended.
You really need to study the NT and find out what it's saying.
Shipwreck does NOT mean loss of salvation?
What is a shipwreck K?
Is that boat still floating???
And the scripture you've actually posted (surprise, surprise, surprise) is not anywhere close to supporting your point of view....
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
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