When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.

[Lizbeth]

I would submit that the Bible often contains types and antitypes. In 2 Peter 3, the passing away of the earth in the Flood is given as a type of the passing away of the Old Covenant economy (the antitype). The means of destruction of the "old heavens and earth" is very significant when one views them as those things related to the Mosaic Age (Old Covenant/Judaism). In the Flood account, God used natural resources (water above and below) to cover the earth. However, the earth itself was neve destroyed and then replaced by a completely new earth. To contend that our physical earth will someday be completely dissolved by fire and then re-recreated does not fit the Flood narrative.

However, if one understands that Peter mentions the flood to demonstrate the end of an old system and world and the beginning of a new, there is no conflict. In other words, only the wicked people were destroyed in the flood and God's people were preserved (Noah and his family). Peter's reference to "old heavens and earth" points to the Old Covenant and the things concerning it, especially how it related to the wicked rulers within it. Those apostate Jews whom Jesus condemned in Matthew 23 are analogous to the evil people of Noah's day. When the Roman armies burned the city and the Temple in A. D. 70, the fires were so "fervent" that the gold melted from the walls. The old "world" of those Jews (the "elements") was dissolved by "fire." The "new heavens and earth" of the New Covenant came forth. Like Noah, the Christians, seeking the warnings of their Lord and His inspired writers, escaped the city before the "deluge" and fled to the mountains of Pella. Thus, they were saved from the "flood" of judgment that God sent upon that old "world."

Also, if the "old heavens and earth" have not yet passed away, we are still under every jot and title of the Law.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:17-18 ESV

I did say I agreed that there was a fulfillment in 70AD, however you are not taking into account or addressing the bulk of my post. I'm saying there seems to be more than one layer to the things prophesied.

I will mention also that Jesus said "when you see these things begin to happen, look up because your redemption draws nigh". That is speaking of the redemption of their bodies, since they were already spiritually redeemed........when those who remain alive at the coming of the Lord would meet Him in the air and forever be with the Lord.....mortality putting on immortality and death swallowed up in victory. That part in the woof and waffle of His integrated prophetic word which was to the Jew first then the Gentle, hasn't happened yet. Either the believers left alive at the time escaped physically to another geographical location, or they met the Lord in the air and went to forever be with Him....couldn't be both....?

The bible says the Law is for the unrighteous....the unrighteous will still be judged by it, all who are not found to be in Christ at their death or at His coming. So while the old covenant did pass in 70AD, the jots and tittles of the law really hasn't, for the unsaved.

 

[ScottA]

Absolutely, and the suffering will end. The time of Christ's returning to the world to judge and consume it in fiery destruction of the ungodly will be as the time of Noah, then by water the world that then was destroyed, but next time by fire of God.

Matthew 24
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Luke 17
22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them.

24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

2 Peter 3
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Be Steadfast​

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

~~~~~~~~~!!!!!!!!!!!
So clearly written as to be understood, all the unbelieving and wicked, those who do not believe and obey the gospel, all of them will be fuel for the fire, destroyed. Yet some claim it already happened, incredible, what a massive error on their part.

Very true, yet time-based thinking remains a major stumbling block.

As Paul said, the timing is "but each one (individual) in his own order." Which, if we can receive it, with God being the same yesterday, today, and forever", means that we all are born into this world in our own time and also leave in or own time--but enter eternity--together.

 

[Scott Downey]

Have you noticed something about what Jesus says?

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Basically the day they left their world, their city and not 3.5 years before, came the destruction.
Meaning what Christ says does not support a pre-trib rapture with a delayed destruction period of 3.5 years.
When God makes the move, he does not dilly dally.
Infact the angels God sent to rescue lot had to grab Lot and family and forcibly drag them away from the city as until they left, the destructive judgement could not be done.

And God tells Noah go into the ark, and God seals them inside then comes the flood on the wicked. Noah does not sit in the ark 3.5 years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed​

12 Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city—take them out of this place! 13 For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it.”

14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, “Get up, get out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city!” But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking.

15 When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” 16 And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife’s hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city. 17 So it came to pass, when they had brought them outside, that [b]he said, “Escape for your life! Do not look behind you nor stay anywhere in the plain. Escape to the mountains, lest you be [c]destroyed.”

18 Then Lot said to them, “Please, no, my lords! 19 Indeed now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have increased your mercy which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest some evil overtake me and I die. 20 See now, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one; please let me escape there (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.”

21 And he said to him, “See, I have favored you concerning this thing also, in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken. 22 Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.”

Therefore the name of the city was called [d]Zoar.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 19 - New King James Version

Sodom’s Depravity - Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. And he said, “Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Scott Downey]

Very true, yet time-based thinking remains a major stumbling block.

As Paul said, the timing is "but each one (individual) in his own order." Which, if we can receive it, with God being the same yesterday, today, and forever", means that we all are born into this world in our own time and also leave in or own time--but enter eternity--together.

Yes, everyone has their day.
God also has a planned time for every purpose under heaven.

I always like how Paul describes his calling in his own Time, when it pleased God, God revealed His Son inside of Paul.
As in Paul was born of God, and then saved.
It is the same for us, in the fulness of our own time, according to God's good pleasure for us, He reveals Christ in us.

Galatians 1

Call to Apostleship​

11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,

17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

 

[Scott Downey]

In truth for the elect of God, this

Psalm 139
1 O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You [a]comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.
5 You have [b]hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in [c]hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall [d]fall on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
12 Indeed, the darkness [e]shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You [f]covered me in my mother’s womb.

14 I will praise You, for [g]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.

15 My [h]frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.

19 Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!
Depart from me, therefore, you [i]bloodthirsty men.
20 For they speak against You wickedly;
[j]Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with [k]perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
v15, Man was made of the dust of the earth.
That particular dust God knew as you before He even made you and formed for you your body.

v16, God wrote all of your days in His book, before as yet any of those days had happened, before time began.

v17, God's thought towards His people are precious and caring, full of love and mercy, and are many.

v18, God preserves His saints, they remain with Him.

 

[Lizbeth]

Very true, yet time-based thinking remains a major stumbling block.

As Paul said, the timing is "but each one (individual) in his own order." Which, if we can receive it, with God being the same yesterday, today, and forever", means that we all are born into this world in our own time and also leave in or own time--but enter eternity--together.

Could there not be elements of both perhaps...?....like where it says the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, yet there was also an appointed day for it to happen in the realm of time...?

 

[ScottA]

Again, I ask the end of what? What is the CONTEXT of Jesus' words, Scott? He told those very disciples that "the end is not yet" and THEN He went on to tell them when that end would be. THEY would first be hated and killed for His name's sake; THEY would first see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (at which time, THEY were to flee--and THEY did); THEY were to live through great tribulation; THEY were to hear of false christs but were not to follow them; THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as surely as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree ("and all the trees" - Luke 21). When THEY saw all of those things, THEY were to know that He was NEAR, at the door! The "end" was NOT yet when they saw all of those things--but it came eventually in THEIR generation. Scott. Jesus could not have been more clear.

The end quote that I referred to was a distinction made between the end that you have been speaking of ("the beginning of sorrows", and the end of the world--after the "gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations." That is why I quoted it.

Which things are written of as a mix of the end of "the house of Israel", and later, that of "in all the world" and to "all the nations." --Because that [mix] was the nature of the disciples question--which they too did not know was a mix of both. All of which is therefore easily confused, if not "rightly divided" by the Spirit.

 

[ScottA]

Is it given only to you to declare?

I agree with everything else you have said but the above I'm not so sure of.

Yes. Which I would not dare to say, if it were not written of me, and having received it from God in His presence.

 

[ScottA]

Could there not be elements of both perhaps...?....like where it says the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, yet there was also an appointed day for it to happen in the realm of time...?

Absolutely! These times are a snapshot--as in a glass dimly, of heavenly matters made manifest (come to light) as a witness before the Judgement. So, yes, what is written, then comes in its time by the perfect order of God and the fulness thereof. Then comes the end.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes. Which I would not dare to say, if it were not written of me, and having received it from God in His presence.

Scott, I'm not saying this with a bad disposition but your answer is not forthright and not fair. You need to say:

1. where it's written of you; and

2. when you received it from God "in His presence".

Please understand that in the days of the false teachers and false prophets that Jesus and His apostles warned us would come, it is a reasonable request.

If I deem your answers to the above questions to be spurious, I will not say so. I will be quiet because I think I 'blasted you' about that claim before (but I have forgotten the details) - so I will be quiet if I don't believe you.

But it's only fair that you reply to my questions - because this is a public space, and you owe it to anyone who reads what you claim (including me) to answer the questions.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What is the context, Scott? There were some of Paul's own day claiming that the resurrection was already past. IF they understood the resurrecion as bodies popping up out of the ground, how in the world could anyone have believed that? They would not. It is obvious that Paul and those of his day who were being deceived believed that the resurrection was NOT physical or outward--it was spiritual and internal.

Those of Paul's own day claiming the resurrection was already past were looking backward to the bodily resurrection of Christ and the many Matthew 27:52-53 saints who came out of their graves the same day as Christ, and who went into the city of Jerusalem to be "seen of many".

There were many eyewitnesses to the bodily-resurrected state of those Matthew 27:52-53 saints. They were the "First resurrection". And it was this "first resurrection" in AD 33 which those of Paul's own day were claiming was already past. IT WAS. But contrary to those mistaken ones of Paul's day (like Hymenaeus and Philetus), this past resurrection in AD 33 was not the only bodily resurrection event that would take place. It was only the "First-fruits" resurrection event, with two others to follow in order after that first resurrection, as Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 15:23-24.

#1 "Christ the First-fruits" (and also the 144,000 "First-fruits" - the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, all raised bodily from the grave in AD 33)
#2 "Afterward, they that are Christ's at His coming" (which second coming Christ taught would occur while some of those He spoke to in those days were still alive to see it - Matt. 16:27-28 - in AD 70)
#3 "THEN the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." Any remaining governmental institutions at the end of human history in our future will be done away with as unnecessary in a world finally perfected of all remaining human wickedness - at the last judgment and the third bodily resurrection event.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I will mention also that Jesus said "when you see these things begin to happen, look up because your redemption draws nigh". That is speaking of the redemption of their bodies, since they were already spiritually redeemed........when those who remain alive at the coming of the Lord would meet Him in the air and forever be with the Lord.....mortality putting on immortality and death swallowed up in victory.

No living believers are ever promised a translation-type change of their bodies in Scripture without dying first. Only the believers who physically die are promised this change into the incorruptible and immortal state. "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after that the judgment". Nobody is given a promise to get off this planet without passing through a physical death process first. Not in 1 Thess. 4 - not in 1 Cor. 15 either.

Paul did not write about those who "remain alive" at Christ's coming. He wrote about those who are "alive", but who would "remain".
There is a difference. The Greek word (perileipomenoi) used here for "remain" implies a reserved status for these who were alive. Those "alive" ones in 1 Thess. 4:17 were those who had already been made alive by a resurrection process in the early church (like Lazarus, Dorcas, anyone the disciples and Christ had raised from the dead during His earthly ministry, the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, etc.. These had all remained on earth in their glorified bodies until the AD 70 second coming return of Christ. Their eventual rapture to heaven in those glorified, resurrected bodies was a reserved, assured outcome, even though they had to "remain" on the earth for a few years until the AD 70 rapture to heaven with the rest of the dead believers who were resurrected at that time.

 

[ScottA]

Scott, I'm not saying this with a bad disposition but your answer is not forthright and not fair. You need to say:

1. where it's written of you; and

2. when you received it from God "in His presence".

Please understand that in the days of the false teachers and false prophets that Jesus and His apostles warned us would come, it is a reasonable request.

If I deem your answers to the above questions to be spurious, I will not say so. I will be quiet because I think I 'blasted you' about that claim before (but I have forgotten the details) - so I will be quiet if I don't believe you.

But it's only fair that you reply to my questions - because this is a public space, and you owe it to anyone who reads what you claim (including me) to answer the questions.

That is gracious of you, but there is no biblical mandate or requirement for what you ask. To the contrary, Jesus gave good reasons not to bear self-witness; also on what showed Him to be authentic.

I have however, given my testimony here more than a few times, and have written books spelling it out--not to give witness of myself, but of God wherein I had no choice but to tell all. But I will say this--as I have already said: I am one caught up to the third heaven, of which biblically there is only one; and the works I do, they bear witness of me, namely the declaration which caused you to question.

 

[HappyOma]

Those of Paul's own day claiming the resurrection was already past were looking backward to the bodily resurrection of Christ and the many Matthew 27:52-53 saints who came out of their graves the same day as Christ, and who went into the city of Jerusalem to be "seen of many".

It is widely accepted that Paul's second letter to Timothy was written between AD 64 and 68. That is more than 30 years after the events following Jesus' rising from the grave and others after Him (Matthew 27). Why are Hymenaeus and Philetus only now stirring up falsehoods about the resurrection at this time? Furthermore, if these men were merely wrong in the timing of the resurrection and had only misapplied it to that long-past event, he would simply have corrected them. But Paul is much more upset about what they were teaching than the simple error of timing might have caused. There were those in Corinth (1 Cor. 15) and in Thessalonica (2 Thes. 2) who were teacihng errors. Paul did not condemn them; he corrected them. Hymanaeus and Philetus were teaching things about the resurrection that contradicted its NATURE and that is why Paul was so upset with them and warned others about them. Their falsehoods were shipwrecking the faith of some and removing their hope of an afterlife!

Notice that in Matthew 27, only "many" came forth from their graves and not "all." This is not the nature of the true resurrection. The concept/nature of the resurrection was an all-inclusive one. In other words, it was the total emptying of Hades where the righteous dead awaited release. It is likely that Hymenaeus, a Judaizer and probably a Greek from Ephesus, was claiming that the resurrection was that spiritual event that occurred at salvation. It was over and they had nothing more to look forward to. This takes us back to the dilemma of 1 Coritnahians 15 where the question was being asked: What about those who had died before the Cross? Was there no resurrection for them since they were dead and could not believe?

There could be no resurrection apart from the return of Christ, the high priest. In full completion of His work of atonement, the Great High Priest exited the Most Holy Place in the heavenly temple, returned to put an end to the Old Covenant system and age of works and Law, emptied Hades of all the "dead in Christ," and brought in the full expression of the New Covenant, the Church. Hymenaeus and Philetus denied all of this and taught that no such things would happen. THAT was what subverted the faith of some.

 

[HappyOma]

The end quote that I referred to was a distinction made between the end that you have been speaking of ("the beginning of sorrows", and the end of the world--after the "gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations."

There is no "end of the world." Also, Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled in that very generation of those disciples right there with Jesus. The word translated as "world" their is oikoumene. It means "household." It is the same word that is found in Luke 2:1 where Caesar puts forth a decree that "all the world" should be enrolled. At that time, "world" meant the Roman Empire. No one else would have been obligated to go back to their home of birth and be registered. Therefore, it was the Roman Empire that was to be fully given the Gospel and not the entire kosmos.

Here are some examples that prove the fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 in THAT generation:

• Acts 2:5 “Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from EVERY nation under heaven.” THEY heard the Gospel.
• Colossians 1:5-6 “For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in ALL THE WORLD; and bringeth forth fruit”
• Colossians 1:23 “This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed TO EVERY CREATURE under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.”
• Romans 1:8 “I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout THE WHOLE WORLD. “
• Romans 10:18 “Their sound went into ALL THE EARTH, and their words unto the END OF THE WORLD “
• 1Timothy 3:16 “He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed AMONG THE NATIONS, believed on I:N THE WORLD, taken up in glory.”
• Romans 15:19 “Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that FROM JERUSALEM, and round about unto ILLYRICUM, I have FULLY preached the gospel of Christ.”

ALL the things of Matthew 24 were fulfilled in THAT generation.

 

[HappyOma]

I will mention also that Jesus said "when you see these things begin to happen, look up because your redemption draws nigh". That is speaking of the redemption of their bodies, since they were already spiritually redeemed........when those who remain alive at the coming of the Lord would meet Him in the air and forever be with the Lord.....mortality putting on immortality and death swallowed up in victory. That part in the woof and waffle of His integrated prophetic word which was to the Jew first then the Gentle, hasn't happened yet. Either the believers left alive at the time escaped physically to another geographical location, or they met the Lord in the air and went to forever be with Him....couldn't be both....?

Paul also spoke of a coming salvation beyond their first act of belief by faith through grace. He placed it NEAR in his day. In his letter to the saints at Rome, he admonished them that even then the "night was far spent" and the "day was AT HAND." Using the word NOW, he stated "your salvation is nearer than when you first believed." That salvation beyond their initial response to the Gospel (their new birth) was coming to them soon!

Let us look also at the book of Hebrews. The writer makes a distinction between the salvation brought at Christ's advent and that which was to come at His Parousia. First the writer establishes that Christ, following the earthly priesthood copies of the heavenly things, entered "into heaven itself in the presence of God ON OUR BEHALF" (Heb. 9:24). Like the earthly high priest, He sprinkled His blood on the heavenly altar. Also like the earthly priest, He had to exit the Most Holy Place once and for all, demonstrating full acceptance by the Father of His sacrifice. Notice what the writer says: Christ was "to come a second time, NOT to deal with sin but to save those who ARE eagerly waiting for Him." THEY were eagerly awaiting Him--and justifiably so. Jesus had told them to wait! He came the first time to "deal with sin.' This happened on the cross when the lamb was slain. Even in the earthly copy, sin was not dealt with by the shedding of the blood of the lamb. The high priest had to take the blood into the Holy of Holies, sprinkle it on the mercy seat, and then EXIT in completion of the atonement. Could Christ do any less? The writer of Hebrews clearly provided the TIMING when He wrote: "In a VERY, VERY LITTLE WHILE, He who IS COMING will COME and will NOT DELAY" (Heb. 10:37). He was coming back soon in THAT day. And He did.

His coming that second time is what Jesus told His disciples to look for (Luke 21). It the same salvation that Paul stated was "at hand" in his day (Rom. 13). The Great High Priest exited the heavenly Holy of Holies in A.D. 70, destroyed His enemies (the Jews, see Matthew 23), abolished the Old Covenant, Mosiac Age, and brought in His kingdom--the very kingdom He told those disciples that THEY would live to see (Matthew 16:28). "There are some standing HERE who will not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man COMING IN KINGDOM."

The cross dealt with sin so that the sealing of the saints by the Holy Spirit could take place. That sealing was removed with the full coming of salvation that fitted all saints for heaven, now and forevermore!

 

[HappyOma]

Oh for goodness sake, you Preterists and Partial Preterists are all like a broken record, not believing the scriptures and corrupting the Lord's warnings and Revelation which He gave to John and to Paul regarding the Day of Christ and the resurrection to come at the last day.

Why don't you stop asking Scott your ridiculous questions which are based on your corruption of the scriptures?

The last day does not mean AD70 - and your assertion is ridiculous because as @ScottA said, you can open the graves to see if there are still bones in them awaiting the resurrection to take place at the last day.

PS: DO NOT ask me any questions. I will not answer them because it's like casting pearls to those who shut their ears to the truth and it's A WASTE OF TIME.

This post is only to express my annoyance with your subtly arrogant, childish repeated question that has already been answered by the person you keep asking - because your ridiculous question and foolishness HAS ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED BY THE SCRIPTURES WHICH YOU DO NOT BELIEVE WITHOUT FIRST TWISTING THEIR MEANING AND CORRUPTING WHAT IS WRITTEN .

Your questions and posts are like a dripping tap. A stuck audio file.

And believe me if I find it annoying then so do many others who will be reading your posts. Only your foolish Preterist friends will be patting you on the back.

 

[HappyOma]

This post is only to express my annoyance with your subtly arrogant, childish repeated question that has already been answered by the person you keep asking - because your ridiculous question and foolishness HAS ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED BY THE SCRIPTURES WHICH YOU DO NOT BELIEVE WITHOUT FIRST TWISTING THEIR MEANING AND CORRUPTING WHAT IS WRITTEN

We continue to ask because you do not answer. You come here and make accusations against me, disparage me by calling me "arrogant" and "childish," yet you provide no scriptural proof to refute what I have presented. That is the frustration of the preterist.

I'll make a deal with you, Zao. I will give you just ONE verse. If you can respond with an exegetical interpretation that demonstrates that you understand the CONTEXT of the verse and the author's meaning, I will bother you no more. Fair enough?

Hebrews 10:37 "In a VERY, VERY LITTLE WHILE He who IS COMING will COME and will NOT DELAY." That was written shortly before A. D. 70 (ca AD 64-69).

Let us all be careful that we do not find ourselves guilty of that of which we accuse others!

 

[ScottA]

There is no "end of the world."

1 John 2:17
And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

 

[rwb]

Most of the major translations render the Greek word "chronos" as "delay." The angel indicated that the end (which Peter spoke of) was so near that there would be "delay no longer." This has nothing to do with the end of time--it is about the "end of all things" (1 Peter 4:7).pertaining to the Old Covenant economy and the Mosaic Age.

What difference does it make whether translated "no longer delay" or "time no longer"?

"Chronos" denotes a space of TIME. There will no longer be delay or time when the angel begins to sound the seventh trumpet. If "at hand" when all things shall end pertains to the end of the Old Covenant economy as you say, then the seventh trumpet would have already sounded with the destruction of the holy city and temple in the first century AD. The seventh trumpet is the last trumpet, and according to Paul will be when the dead shall be raised incorruptible, becoming immortal. If all things coming to an end is what "at hand" indicates, why are there no immortal & incorruptible saints resurrected from the graves from the first century to prove the end of the Old Covenant Law is what Peter wrote about?

1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Peter 4:7 (KJV) But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.