The last hour

[Aunty Jane]

I didn't ask for this Jane. I asked you a simple question that requires a simple answer.

Literal or symbolic?

O good grief mate….now we have a courtroom drama and only a simple answer will suffice. I don’t like simple answers as they are often deceptive, leaving out vital information that helps us understand more of the big picture. It seems to me that you have your own picture and nothing else matters.

We have gone over this many times Jane and we are told what will happen in the last days.

2 Timothy 3:1-2: "But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy..."

Yes, and that is literal as we see this more in our day than at any other time period in history. These human traits have to align with the things that individuals cannot control, like earthquakes and disease epidemics that Jesus mentioned in Matt 24 and Luke 21.

Jane, if you continue to hold on to mythological ideas and ignore the very things you've been warned about, you risk remaining in spiritual darkness.

Oooh you sound so scary….what “mythological ideas” do I hold that I could not accuse you of doing the same?

You are welcome to your beliefs but they are not mine…OK? And they are never going to be.
I have found my spiritual home and Christ himself will let both you and me know if we have chosen wisely. He knows who is in spiritual darkness, even when we do not. (Matt 7:21-23; 1 Cor 10:12)

If we are not open to his truth, then our beliefs, no matter what we choose to believe, will condemn us, not save us. No one can come to the son without a personal invitation from his Father. (John 6:65) Neither of us can alter any of that.

 

[Hiddenthings]

O good grief mate….now we have a courtroom drama and only a simple answer will suffice. I don’t like simple answers as they are often deceptive, leaving out vital information that helps us understand more of the big picture. It seems to me that you have your own picture and nothing else matters.

Yes, and that is literal as we see this more in our day than at any other time period in history. These human traits have to align with the things that individuals cannot control, like earthquakes and disease epidemics that Jesus mentioned in Matt 24 and Luke 21.

You have issues to deal with if you believe its literal.

Oooh you sound so scary….what “mythological ideas” do I hold that I could not accuse you of doing the same?

You are welcome to your beliefs but they are not mine…OK? And they are never going to be.
I have found my spiritual home and Christ himself will let both you and me know if we have chosen wisely. He knows who is in spiritual darkness, even when we do not. (Matt 7:21-23; 1 Cor 10:12)

If we are not open to his truth, then our beliefs, no matter what we choose to believe, will condemn us, not save us. No one can come to the son without a personal invitation from his Father. (John 6:65) Neither of us can alter any of that.

Your method of interpreting Revelation 12 must be reasonable and consistent.

How can a woman give birth literally in heaven?

It’s quite clear that the term “heaven” refers to the political realm, not the atmospheric one, since the “sign” taking place there involves a woman giving birth to a child, something that clearly symbolizes events on earth, not in the skies above.

Now why am I laboring this point?

If you accept its figurative then you are set on an entirely different course in seeking an explanation of the symbols.

For now, they are hidden from you, and you seem to be comfortable with that.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Do you understand Jane? And if so, do not shrink back in fear of the unknown but face what is to be learned head on!

Do I understand from your perspective? No, I don’t agree with your take on Scripture at all, nor do the dire warnings instill fear because I know the God I worship and I do not fear him at all.

The “war in heaven” was as real as the eviction of Adam and his wife from the garden of Eden….it served a purpose. You have to have the big picture to know what God’s purpose is in all he does.

Satan had full access to heaven right up until that battle was fought…..no matter what form that battle took, satan was to be confined to the vicinity of the earth before his thousand years of imprisonment. (Rev 20:1-3) I suppose you believe that is all mythological ideas as well? Your beliefs do not resonate with me at all.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Do I understand from your perspective? No, I don’t agree with your take on Scripture at all, nor do the dire warnings instill fear because I know the God I worship and I do not fear him at all.

You do not fear God at all?

The “war in heaven” was as real as the eviction of Adam and his wife from the garden of Eden….it served a purpose. You have to have the big picture to know what God’s purpose is in all he does.

You believe this literal war in heaven has already taken place? I can say with confidence this prophecy has been fulfilled but not in the way you imagine.

Satan had full access to heaven right up until that battle was fought…..no matter what form that battle took, satan was to be confined to the vicinity of the earth before his thousand years of imprisonment. (Rev 20:1-3) I suppose you believe that is all mythological ideas as well? Your beliefs do not resonate with me at all.

You believe this so-called evil creature had full access to God's throne?

The reason these truths remain hidden from you is because you haven’t yet asked the right questions of the Word, or allowed the Word to answer for itself.

Jane, ask yourself: Why was the woman clothed with the sun?

Consider the symbolic meaning of the woman throughout Scripture, and reflect on what the sun represents. This isn’t difficult, if you’re willing to open your mind to what Scripture actually says, rather than holding onto ideas that have no foundation in the Word.

Clearly this is not literal so immediately abandon that idea. In history what could be represented as the Woman and the Sun. It's important to grasp how the Spirit communicated to those who read and understand the symbolic meaning found in Scripture - what's crazy is I know you have the ability to answer these questions without the need for mythological concepts.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You do not fear God at all?

Not the kind of fear you are trying to engender….the fear of God that the Bible speaks of is the fear of displeasing someone you love.

You believe this literal war in heaven has already taken place? I can say with confidence this prophecy has been fulfilled but not in the way you imagine.

You seem to be running away with the idea that I think all of Revelation is literal when it is largely symbolic and I agree that the symbols are to be understood in the light of the entirety of Scripture.

You believe this so-called evil creature had full access to God's throne?

You don’t believe in the devil….? That is entirely your problem.

The reason these truths remain hidden from you is because you haven’t yet asked the right questions of the Word, or allowed the Word to answer for itself.

You really don’t seem to understand that I don’t believe what you believe and you will not convince me any more than I will convince you, so give it a rest…OK?

Jane, ask yourself: Why was the woman clothed with the sun?

Consider the symbolic meaning of the woman throughout Scripture, and reflect on what the sun represents. This isn’t difficult, if you’re willing to open your mind to what Scripture actually says, rather than holding onto ideas that have no foundation in the Word.

Clearly this is not literal so immediately abandon that idea. In history what could be represented as the Woman and the Sun. It's important to grasp how the Spirit communicated to those who read and understand the symbolic meaning found in Scripture - what's crazy is I know you have the ability to answer these questions without the need for mythological concepts.

We have studied Revelation extensively and we have discerned the meaning of its symbols as well as its literal statements. It correlates with the rest of Scripture, so it all fits in with the big picture as far as we are concerned.
We are happy with our understanding of the Revelation‘s message and we believe that the devil is a very real entity. You and I will never agree on anything much as far as interpretation of Scripture is concerned, and I really don’t appreciate your constant inference that it is I who must come over to your view of Scripture. Give it up mate….it’s not going to happen.

I do not subscribe to your view and never will…do you understand that?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Not the kind of fear you are trying to engender….the fear of God that the Bible speaks of is the fear of displeasing someone you love.

I would engender the same reverent fear that Christ had toward his Father

You seem to be running away with the idea that I think all of Revelation is literal when it is largely symbolic and I agree that the symbols are to be understood in the light of the entirety of Scripture.

"He sent and signified it"

Jane, it was not delivered in a straightforward manner, but in a symbolic or sign-based form. To 'signify' means to express something through signs or symbols. This is clearly the intended meaning of the word here, as evidenced by what John saw and heard. He describes certain visions, and repeatedly he is told what the mystery or true meaning of those visions actually is.

When a symbol is taken literally instead of being understood symbolically, its true meaning is lost.

You don’t believe in the devil….? That is entirely your problem.

I believe in many devils, as the Bible presents numerous false accusers and slanderers, but none of them are angelic. Deep down, you know why such a claim is impossible, yet you continue to deny the overwhelming evidence.

You really don’t seem to understand that I don’t believe what you believe and you will not convince me any more than I will convince you, so give it a rest…OK?

We have studied Revelation extensively and we have discerned the meaning of its symbols as well as its literal statements. It correlates with the rest of Scripture, so it all fits in with the big picture as far as we are concerned.
We are happy with our understanding of the Revelation‘s message and we believe that the devil is a very real entity. You and I will never agree on anything much as far as interpretation of Scripture is concerned, and I really don’t appreciate your constant inference that it is I who must come over to your view of Scripture. Give it up mate….it’s not going to happen.

I do not subscribe to your view and never will…do you understand that?

There are several issues here, Jane.

You’ve acknowledged that the image of the woman and the sun is symbolic rather than literal, yet you haven’t made any effort to interpret what those symbols actually mean.

From all our communications this is out of character for you as you are often very willing to share your insights.

It’s entirely possible to misinterpret the symbols, like the woman, the sun, the red dragon, and its tail that casts a third of the stars of heaven down to the earth.

What’s more concerning is that you’re now asking me to stop urging you to reconsider Revelation 12, when, in reality, you’ve been engaging in discussions doing the same in this forum for years.

Lastly, I’m not asking you to accept my beliefs about Revelation 12, because I haven’t even shared them with you. All I’m asking is that you take the time to consider what in the passage is literal and what is symbolic, and to reflect on what the woman and the sun might represent.

The discovery of this work "may" lead you to a fuller understanding of how God works in the Kingdoms of men.

I think these are all valid points

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So an anti-JW rant is all you have to offer

It's all I need to offer to let people know that you are not a trustworthy source of biblical knowledge.

….hatred makes one blind….it’s not a nice trait.

I don't hate you. I hate your false doctrine. Don't you hate what you consider to be false teaching? I know you do. So, I'm not doing anything different than you do when you constantly criticize "Christendom".

Look what happened to the disciples of Jesus….supposedly worshippers of the same God and yet Jesus called the leaders of Judaism offspring of the devil…….so, are you the one pointing fingers, not having three pointed back at yourself?
Self righteousness is no righteousness at all.

Says the self righteous one who thinks JWs are better than all of us who are part of "Christendom".

Remember 1 Corinthians 10:12….
Those mentioned in Matt 7:21-23 thought that they were faithful disciples of the “Lord”….even recounting to Jesus all the good things they did by way of excuse.…and yet, Jesus will reject them outright as those he “never knew”….we can allow him to be the judge….I don’t recall him appointing you as the judge of anyone.

By their fruits you will know them. The JW fruits of false teaching tell me all I need to know about your spiritual condition.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It's all I need to offer to let people know that you are not a trustworthy source of biblical knowledge.

How does anyone know that you, or anyone else in the hopelessly divided “church” system, are a trustworthy source of biblical knowledge? Christians are supposed to be in agreement, so where will I find agreement in those divided churches, who separate themselves from one another even in a cemetery? (1Cor 1:10) What have you been fed that leads you to believe what you hold as truth?
Were you taught by those who have a degree in theology? Did you know that theology is not a study of the Bible, but a study of church doctrine?

I don't hate you. I hate your false doctrine. Don't you hate what you consider to be false teaching? I know you do. So, I'm not doing anything different than you do when you constantly criticize "Christendom".

I came out of Christendom a long time ago, for many reasons, and I decided to study the whole Bible, not just the skewed bits of it that are taught in theological colleges and seminaries.
I understand what God hates from that study….and what he hates more than anything is hypocrisy and false religion.

So how are we to discern what is true and what is false in that muddle of differing beliefs held in the divided churches of Christendom? As you rightly said, it is “by their fruits”….the kind of people they are, and whether they teach Bible truth or a counterfeit version of it, as Jesus warned us about?

There’s a valuable lesson in Jesus’ parable of the ”wheat and the weeds”…..especially when you understand what the “weeds” or “tares” meant to a first century Jewish audience.
It is believed to be a noxious weed called ”bearded darnel” which earned the nickname of “wheat’s evil twin”.
It was a blight to wheat farmers in the Middle East because in the early stages of growth it looked identical to wheat. If a farmer had a dispute with his neighbor, he would often oversow his neighbor’s crop with this weed, to ruin his harvest.
It wasn’t until it was at the next stage of growth that farmers could tell the difference, but by that time, the roots systems had become intertwined with the wheat, and uprooting the weeds would take the wheat with them. So the farmer had to allow the weeds to “grow along with the wheat”, and at the harvest all the plants would be harvested and the weeds separated out and burned, whilst the wheat was taken to the storehouse.

Jesus identified who sowed the “wheat”, and who sowed those “weeds”……and he identified who the “reapers” were, what the “field” was, and what the “harvest” was. (Matt 13:24-30; 36-42)
If we who are alive at the “harvest time”, cannot discern which is which, then it will be too late once the reapers have done their job.

The devil is a deceiver and he will present the truth as lies, and the lies as truth…..he has had almost 2000 years to cultivate his “weeds” and as Jesus said….only a relative “few” will be found on the road to life (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)…..his true disciples in our day, will be like his disciples in the first century….like salmon swimming upstream….a hated and persecuted minority who are doing what Christ commanded, but who are derided as false Christians. (John 15:18-21)

The first Christians were persecuted by those who purportedly worshipped the same God. The hatred stirred up against them meant a limited harvest for Jesus….so if you are part of a majority who have adopted false teachings from centuries ago, and promote them as truth, where does that place those in Christendom who can’t seem to agree on much of anything, except the core of false beliefs inherited from the Roman Catholic church so long ago, that no one questions them.

Paul described what Christianity should look like…
“Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.“ (1 Cor 1:10 NKJV)

That does not describe Christendom at all.

Says the self righteous one who thinks JWs are better than all of us who are part of "Christendom".

Who ever said we were better that anyone else? We too live in sinful flesh like you do, but we have done our homework and intensive Bible study has its advantages because we do our own research and we have identified those who have left off from the false teachings of Christendom and fallen back on sound scriptural doctrine that does not have its roots in an apostate religious system.

Have you done your own homework? Where do your beliefs originate?

 

[Aunty Jane]

By their fruits you will know them. The JW fruits of false teaching tell me all I need to know about your spiritual condition.

Do you really know anything about us from personal experience? I was taught exactly what you were taught about JW’s, so I had no intention of ever listening to a word they said…..but I lost my father to an early death and wasn’t getting a whole lot of help from the church I grew up in. I had questions that demanded answers and they were not forthcoming…..all I got were platitudes, but I wanted solid Bible answers to my questions. Death hits hard, especially when it is unexpected.

When the JW’s came to my door and said that the the Bible has the answer to all our questions, out of sarcasm I asked “so, what happens to us when we die?” Expecting to hear what my church and others had told me……but to my complete surprise, they asked if I had a Bible and if I would like to go and get it, they would show me from my own Bible the answer to my questions. It was the little illustrated KJV that my Nana had given to me when I was 10 years old. I still have it. And every question I asked was answered from the Bible. I even found God’s name when I was never ever told that he had a name. (Psalm 83:18)

From that day on my curiosity was sparked and the more questions I had answered, the more questions I had, so they offered to study the Bible with me.…at my home, one on one, so I was never lost in a group.
I accepted, but at the back of my mind was that picture that others had painted of them. So I took my time, I attended their meetings and observed them as people. I wondered why I had heard so many bad things about Jehovah’s Witnesses, because I found them to be loving and caring about each other as well as for their neighbors. Are they perfect? No one is, but then, the apostles weren’t perfect either, and Jesus made allowance for their imperfections. He concentrated on their good qualities.

I took two years to study and I did my own research and observed these people closely, then decided I wanted to be part of this global family who all hold to the same beliefs and who are no part of the world as Jesus instructed. (John 18:36) You won’t find them voting for corrupt human governments, arguing over politics, or having blood on their hands in supporting the conflicts of the nations. (Isa 1:15)

We allow the words of the apostle Paul to guide us….(Romans 12:9-21)
All have to make the truth their own in a world where the “weeds” are everywhere, trying to choke the wheat and silence them as the devil has always tried to do, but in vain. Nothing will stop the “good news” from being preached “in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations” in harmony with Jesus’ command. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)

 

[Hiddenthings]

I took two years to study and I did my own research and observed these people closely, then decided I wanted to be part of this global family who all hold to the same beliefs and who are no part of the world as Jesus instructed. (John 18:36) You won’t find them voting for corrupt human governments, arguing over politics, or having blood on their hands in supporting the conflicts of the nations.

While your community gets a number of things right, you also know there are several beliefs it holds that aren't accurate. In my view, you likely sense this on some level but choose to place your trust in the community rather than in a sound interpretation of the Scriptures.

 

[Aunty Jane]

While your community gets a number of things right, you also know there are several beliefs it holds that aren't accurate.

These are the kinds of replies that are insulting because they suggest that I would turn a blind eye to things that I know are wrong. You do not know me…..I have to prove things to myself, so that there is no shadow of doubt, before I could ever teach those things to others.
There are no beliefs that I hold that are not well researched and accepted whole heartedly.
Your beliefs are completely rejected by me because I have done my homework.
We will all see soon enough who were telling the uncomfortable truth over the comfortable lies.

In my view, you likely sense this on some level but choose to place your trust in the community rather than in a sound interpretation of the Scriptures.

Your suggestions are what you have surmised, because you have been convinced otherwise….but I assure you that you are way off base when it comes to Bible truth.
Anyone who can say that the devil is not a real entity who is God’s adversary, and creating chaos with his minions on this earth, is delusional IMO. Who are the demons in your belief system?

The whole Bible is about God’s battle with the evil he was trying to withhold from his human children. What was the TKGE doing in the garden?…..and why was there a choice of two? One that would lead to death, and the other to life everlasting in mortal flesh? (Gen 3:22-24)
That evil had a source and it was from outside the perfect human race that God created.

Why does evil exist? And why did God not want his children to know it?

 

[Hiddenthings]

These are the kinds of replies that are insulting because they suggest that I would turn a blind eye to things that I know are wrong. You do not know me…..I have to prove things to myself, so that there is no shadow of doubt, before I could ever teach those things to others.

I can tell you there are gaps in your knowledge - we all have areas of weakness.

There are no beliefs that I hold that are not well researched and accepted whole heartedly.

You are very weak on prophecy Jane - concerning Israel and end times.

Your beliefs are completely rejected by me because I have done my homework.
We will all see soon enough who were telling the uncomfortable truth over the comfortable lies.

Correct.

Your suggestions are what you have surmised, because you have been convinced otherwise….but I assure you that you are way off base when it comes to Bible truth.
Anyone who can say that the devil is not a real entity who is God’s adversary, and creating chaos with his minions on this earth, is delusional IMO. Who are the demons in your belief system?

So many have tried to provide evidence for this creature, but you know the Bible is silent on such a creature.

Where in all the Gospel records does Jesus explain and define this being? Teaches about its devices and its power.

I know right, nowhere...do you know why?

Why does evil exist?

You ask questions you already know the answers to.

Jeremiah 17:9. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Where in the Gospel's does Jesus speak to the source of this evil?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I can tell you there are gaps in your knowledge - we all have areas of weakness.

You are very weak on prophecy Jane - concerning Israel and end times.

You ignore a lot of Scripture to hold your own views so let’s just agree to disagree….
You have gaps in your Bible knowledge that you could drive a Mack Truck through….but you have a right to believe whatever you wish, as I do. I do not need you to insinuate things about me that are a product of your imagination.

Correct.

So many have tried to provide evidence for this creature, but you know the Bible is silent on such a creature.

Nonsense.

Where in all the Gospel records does Jesus explain and define this being? Teaches about its devices and its power.

I know right, nowhere...do you know why?

You ask questions you already know the answers to.

OK, let me ask you who it was who tempted Jesus, a sinless human who was not saddled with sin as a result of being the offspring of Adam.
In order to become “the last Adam”, Jesus had to be perfect, (sinless) like the first Adam was at his creation...otherwise, the ransom he offered to God for the sins of the human race would not have been paid.

Did Adam have a sin nature so that the temptation from his wife was too difficult to refuse? Or was his sin due to a division of his loyalties, calculated by the devil to force him to make a bad decision?

Did Eve have a sin nature so that the devil’s offer was impossible for her to refuse?
Why did the devil approach her first, while Adam was not with her?
The man was educated by his God for an unknown period of time whilst he observed the animals in order to name them all. Only when he had completed the task did God give the man a mate. God left her education to her husband, as was evident by the fact that she reiterated to the devil that God had told them not to eat from the TKGE. Was she talking to herself?

Why was the devil even in the garden? Ezekiel tells us that he was a “covering cherub”…..a rank in the angelic creation assigned to guardianship positions. (Ezekiel 28:13-15) He was right there in a responsible position of oversight, observing all that was going on, and plotting his take-over of the human race for his own selfish purpose.…to “be like God” and have their worship for himself.

Once the eviction had taken place, other cherubs were posted at the entrance to the garden with the flaming blade of a sword to guard the way to “the tree of life”.
The devil gave himself away when he tempted Jesus with an offer of “all the kingdoms of the world” in exchange for one act of worship.
Who could he offer Jesus all of that if he wasn’t real, and if he did not possess them? Luke says that the devil was given rulership of the world because it had been “delivered to him”. (Luke 4:5-7)
Who else but God could give that to his adversary. (1 John 5:19) God gave rulership to the one whom the humans chose to obey.

There were three perfect beings involved in the fall of man….each had free will which was contingent with being “made in God’s image and likeness”. Each one abused that privilege and brought chaos into the world. This is not the world that God planned for the human race….he did not create it or us to be defective.

Jeremiah 17:9. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Where in the Gospel's does Jesus speak to the source of this evil?

Is it only in the gospels that the devil is spoken about? What about Job?
Satan was among the angelic sons of God, taking their station before him in heaven….so who was there planning to test the integrity of Job, as painfully as possible. Did Job kill his 10 children? Or organize to have all his possessions stolen one after the other?
Or did he inflict a grievous skin condition on himself? God had to tell the devil that he could not take Job’s life.
Did his three so called comforters just show up accidentally…to kick the man when he was down?
What do you think that encounter was all about?

How on earth you can come up with the “no such creature as the devil” is beyond me….

Satan is identified as “the original serpent”, by the apostle John in his Revelation. (Rev 12:7-12)
He is said to have “his angels” as he is their leader.

Jesus was not tempted by anything in himself because he was sinless. There was no evil in him. His heart was not desperate or wicked because he was not a son of Adam, like we are. If you think Jesus was a product of human conception, then you have no idea what the ransom meant, and why the savior had to come from outside the now sinful human race to pay for Adam’s sin.

Can you even tell me what redemption meant to a Jew?

 

[Hiddenthings]

You ignore a lot of Scripture to hold your own views so let’s just agree to disagree….
You have gaps in your Bible knowledge that you could drive a Mack Truck through….but you have a right to believe whatever you wish, as I do. I do not need you to insinuate things about me that are a product of your imagination.

It's all in the evidence Jane. You do not wish to interpret Revelation 12 as symbolic because you do not have an interpretation to share. Realizing its not literal leaves you with

OK, let me ask you who it was who tempted Jesus

Good question!

Hebrews 4:15 (ESV) "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin."

The weakness was not a fallen angel Jane! Come on get with the true Gospel...he shared your nature and was tempted just like you.

This is elementary and you do not know this?

James 1:14 "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire."

Like I said there is no evil supernatural being Jane - its a figment of your imagination.

Did Adam have a sin nature so that the temptation from his wife was too difficult to refuse? Or was his sin due to a division of his loyalties, calculated by the devil to force him to make a bad decision?

Adam was made of the earth, earthy - temptation came from his nature.

Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that temptation comes from without a person!

Did Eve have a sin nature so that the devil’s offer was impossible for her to refuse?

You mean serpent, right? Why is it so difficult for you to simply use the word the Scriptures actually give for this creature? Why do you feel the need to reinterpret or alter the Word of God just to make it align with your own perspective?

Why did the devil approach her first, while Adam was not with her?

The serpent was described as more cunning than any of the animals the Lord God had made. Jane, the story you've presented simply isn't found in Scripture. Where, anywhere in the Word of God, is it stated that a fallen angel disguised himself as a serpent to deceive Eve? There isn’t a single passage that supports this idea, it's a complete fabrication, drawn from imagination rather than the text itself.

I genuinely struggle to understand how someone who values integrity can hold to such claims without a shred of supporting evidence.

There’s little point in addressing the rest of your post, because the issue ends right here.

We both know the kind of evidence required, and the truth is, you don’t have anything even remotely close. Not even a faint koowee of support for the fallacy that has taken root in your thinking.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Aunty Jane

Beyond the clear lack of support for your “ventriloquist theology” in the Garden, one has to ask: why would God create an animal described as more cunning (with voice) than the rest?

Why not just use an ordinary animal, if, as you claim, a fallen angel was simply using it as a vessel?

The serpent was more cunning than any other “beast of the field.” And it's this quality of subtlety, shrewdness, or discernment is actually praised by the Lord Jesus, who instructed his disciples to be “wise as serpents” in Matthew 10:16

Can you answer the question?

 

[Davy]

1 John 2
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

What did John mean by the last hour? Obviously not the end of the world.

He meant the latter days, in the general sense. That is the 'last hour'. And hey, it is even represented in Scripture about the end in metaphor form, like Matt.10:19; Matt.20:12; Matt.24:26; Matt.24:42; Matt.24:50; Matt.26:40; Luke 22:53; Rev.9:15; Rev.17:12.

Why do so many brethren think they have to have a road map giveing them directions to understand simple expressions in God's Word?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Adam was made of the earth, earthy - temptation came from his nature.

That is an assumption on your part. The devil divided Adam’s loyalties and made him choose between his wife and his Creator. What if he had chosen differently? He was free willed, and that is what you are leaving out of your picture. Adam could have made a different choice…so could Eve….and so could the “covering cherub” who was stationed in Eden. I see you did not address this point.

Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that temptation comes from without a person!

Are you serious ? Women were used to tempt men…look what happened to the men of Israel, on the brink of entering the Promised land, when attractive Moabite women were sent to tempt them into immorality? And there were many things that tempted humans from outside of themselves…..greed comes from seeing what others have and wanting it, which is why God’s law said not to covet. The law came about because of sin that had entered the world through Adam’s disobedience, before then there was no law except one command…..not to eat from the TKGE.
Imagine a world where Adam had not introduced sin by his disobedience. You have the cart before the horse.

You mean serpent, right? Why is it so difficult for you to simply use the word the Scriptures actually give for this creature? Why do you feel the need to reinterpret or alter the Word of God just to make it align with your own perspective?

Do you really think there was a talking serpent that God created…..? How many snakes do you know of that can talk? Was Eve talking to herself? By whatever means the devil used the serpent, it worked.…and here we are. The ransom paid by Jesus was a set price…..you did not answer the question about redemption. What did it mean to a Jew? It was the whole reason why he came to earth to give his life for the one Adam lost for his children.

The serpent was described as more cunning than any of the animals the Lord God had made. Jane, the story you've presented simply isn't found in Scripture. Where, anywhere in the Word of God, is it stated that a fallen angel disguised himself as a serpent to deceive Eve? There isn’t a single passage that supports this idea, it's a complete fabrication, drawn from imagination rather than the text itself.

The word can also mean “cautious”…..a trait that serves them well in the wild. We have snakes where I live, and we respect them because they share this planet with us. How do we feel when someone has a carpet python as a pet? Do we think all snakes are bad just because they are serpents? There was no fear of animals in the beginning, nor was there a fear of man in animals…there was no need. So if a serpent spoke to the woman she would not have felt any fear. She concentrated on what the serpent suggested to her and it made sense. But what if the serpent had approached Adam directly? A very different outcome would no doubt, have resulted. This is why the serpent used the woman to temp the man and lead them both into disobedience. If the serpent had not planted those seeds of doubt in the woman, would she have disobeyed her Creator from any sin in herself? She didn’t have any until she took that fruit. Nor did Adam, until he too chose to join her rather than lose her.
Since she was created sinless, why would those thoughts have even entered her mind?
Did God create humans to sin? Or did he do his best to deter them from that course, whilst still preserving the gift of free will. There was only one cause of death…..sin.

I genuinely struggle to understand how someone who values integrity can hold to such claims without a shred of supporting evidence.

I believe there are many here who struggle to believe that you can hold your view of satan, in spite of what the Bible clearly says. “The original serpent” is identified as satan the devil in Rev 12:7-12. Jesus gave John the Revelation through an angel. I believe Jesus.

There’s little point in addressing the rest of your post, because the issue ends right here.

Yes, and so does this discussion…..you cannot see what is clearly stated. Not my problem, and there is no way you can steer me in any other direction. A sinless Jesus did not tempt himself…..why would he?
Your position is untenable.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That is an assumption on your part. The devil divided Adam’s loyalties and made him choose between his wife and his Creator. What if he has chosen differently? He was free willed, and that is what you are leaving out of your picture. Adam could have made a different choice…so could Even….and so could the “covering cherub” who was stationed in Eden. I see you did not address this point.

Evidence please

Are you serious ? Women were used to tempt men…look what happened to the men of Israel, on the brink of entering the Promised land, when attractive Moabite women were sent to tempt them into immorality? And there were many things that tempted humans from outside of themselves…..greed comes from seeing what others have and wanting it, which is why God’s law said not to covet. The law came about because of sin that had entered the world through Adam’s disobedience, before then there was no law except one command…..not to eat from the TKGE.
Imagine a world where Adam had not introduced sin by his disobedience. You have the cart before the horse.

Evidence please - all the Apostles and Jesus himself teach that temptation is from within, our nature!

Do you really think there was a talking serpent that God created…..?

That's what is written Jane.

How many snakes do you know of that can talk?

One, as written in Genesis 3.

Was Eve talking to herself? By whatever means the devil used the serpent, it worked.…and here we are. The ransom paid by Jesus was a set price…..you did not answer the question about redemption. What did it mean to a Jew? It was the whole reason why he came to earth to give his life for the one Adam lost for his children.

Pleading will not provide you the evidence you need Jane.

The word can also mean “cautious”…..a trait that serves them well in the wild. We have snakes where I live, and we respect them because they share this planet with us. How do we feel when someone has a carpet python as a pet? Do we think all snakes are bad just because they are serpents? There was no fear of animals in the beginning, nor was there a fear of man in animals…there was no need. So if a serpent spoke to the woman she would not have felt any fear. She concentrated on what the serpent suggested to her and it made sense. But what if the serpent had approached Adam directly? A very different outcome would no doubt, have resulted. This is why the serpent used the woman to temp the man and lead them both into disobedience. If the serpent had not planted those seeds of doubt in the woman, would she have disobeyed her Creator from any sin in herself? She didn’t have any until she took that fruit. Nor did Adam, until he too chose to join her rather than lose her.

This is just desperation on your part.

Answer the question.

Why would God create an animal described as more cunning (with voice) than the rest?

Since she was created sinless, why would those thoughts have even entered her mind?
Did God create humans to sin? Or did he do his best to deter them from that course, whilst still preserving the gift of free will. There was only one cause of death…..sin.

This is merely noise Jane - answer the question.

Why would God create an animal described as more cunning (with voice) than the rest?

I believe there are many here who struggle to believe that you can hold your view of satan, in spite of what the Bible clearly says. “The original serpent” is identified as satan the devil in Rev 12:7-12. Jesus gave John the Revelation through an angel. I believe Jesus.

We have established Rev 12 is symbolic and that you wish not to interpret the prophecy. Your Master and Lord did not identify your fallen angel once in his ministry, not once! Identifying the true identity of the adversary in Rev 12 ought to be a priority for you shouldn't it?

Yes, and so does this discussion…..you cannot see what is clearly stated. Not my problem, and there is no way you can steer me in any other direction. A sinless Jesus did not tempt himself…..why would he?
Your position is untenable.

So the question remains:

Why would God create an animal described as more cunning (with voice) than the rest?

 

[Hiddenthings]

This is a lesson in careful Bible reading, of letting the text speak for itself rather than forcing ideas into it that simply aren’t there. What many Christians have done with Genesis 3 is unfortunate. Instead of recognizing it as a test for the first human pair, they insert an unfounded narrative about a fallen angel and a rebellion in heaven, ideas that have no basis in the actual text.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Are you serious ? Women were used to tempt men…look what happened to the men of Israel, on the brink of entering the Promised land, when attractive Moabite women were sent to tempt them into immorality? And there were many things that tempted humans from outside of themselves…..greed comes from seeing what others have and wanting it, which is why God’s law said not to covet. The law came about because of sin that had entered the world through Adam’s disobedience, before then there was no law except one command…..not to eat from the TKGE.
Imagine a world where Adam had not introduced sin by his disobedience. You have the cart before the horse.

Your Teacher deals with this subject in extreme language in Mark 7:14–23 (also paralleled in Matthew 15:10–20).

From within NOT without!