The mysteries in the Gospels “Who Do You Believe? The Witnessed Words of Jesus or Paul’s Private Vision?”

[Muna]

No, Ananias could not fulfill the requirement of the Law as a proper witness to Paul’s claimed vision.

In the Law of Moses, truth had to be established “by the mouth of two or three witnesses” (Deuteronomy 19:15; also repeated by Jesus in Matthew 18:16). A valid witness had to have actually seen or heard the event being confirmed. Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus had no such witnesses.

Paul himself admitted that those who were with him did not see what he saw. In Acts 9:7, Luke writes that the men traveling with Paul “stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.” In Acts 22:9, Paul later says, “those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.” These are contradictory accounts, but in both versions, no one could confirm the conversation Paul claimed to have had with Jesus.

Ananias only met Paul after the vision. He did not see or hear the event himself. He merely acted on what Paul told him, so legally he was not a witness of the revelation. Under Jewish law, this does not meet the standard of confirmation by “two or three” direct witnesses.

The importatnt thing in Paul's vision was " the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." (v.6)

The Lord appears to Paul but would fetch a second witness (but the Lord himself being a witness between the two men). here

[10] And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
[11] And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
[12] And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

The testimony of two men and the Lord Jesus Christ in the vision of each man, and the Lord telling the vision given the one (Paul) to Ananais (which includes Ananais coming to him) for the purpose for which he called him.

So the Lord is now appearing to another disciple (that disciple is Ananias) as Luke records it, and the Lord tells this specific disciple what was in Paul's own vision (given to him of the Lord) concerning himself (meaning Ananais) coming to Paul. And because Paul's own vision included the Lord saying to Paul, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." It included another man. And so the Lord chose Ananais to do just this. Ananias is shown disputing doing this with the Lord (because of his past persecution of the Church) being a little afraid to believe the Lord could use such a man but the Lord tells Ananais Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
[17] And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
[18] And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

​

 

[LoveYeshua]

The importatnt thing in Paul's vision was " the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." (v.6)

The Lord appears to Paul but would fetch a second witness (but the Lord himself being a witness between the two men). here

[10] And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
[11] And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
[12] And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

The testimony of two men and the Lord Jesus Christ in the vision of each man, and the Lord telling the vision given the one (Paul) to Ananais (which includes Ananais coming to him) for the purpose for which he called him.

So the Lord is now appearing to another disciple (that disciple is Ananias) as Luke records it, and the Lord tells this specific disciple what was in Paul's own vision (given to him of the Lord) concerning himself (meaning Ananais) coming to Paul. And because Paul's own vision included the Lord saying to Paul, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." It included another man. And so the Lord chose Ananais to do just this. Ananias is shown disputing doing this with the Lord (because of his past persecution of the Church) being a little afraid to believe the Lord could use such a man but the Lord tells Ananais Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
[17] And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
[18] And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

​

Yes I agree with you Christ did speak to Paul with a severe warning and blinded him. You are smart and know scripture.

If you can associate what Christ said also with other parts of the O.T. you will understand what it means in regards to paul, Ill give readers here one word said by Christ as a clue "GOAD". The meaning is revealed to those under the Holy Spirit and they will find the truth about it as the spirit teaches the believers and reveals many things.

Paul's place in the bible is legit and it has a purpose, but maybe not the one people wish for.

 

[Muna]

Yes I agree with you Christ did speak to Paul with a severe warning and blinded him. You are smart and know scripture.

If you can associate what Christ said also with other parts of the O.T. you will understand what it means in regards to paul, Ill give readers here one word said by Christ as a clue "GOAD". The meaning is revealed to those under the Holy Spirit and they will find the truth about it as the spirit teaches the believers and reveals many things.

Paul's place in the bible is legit and it has a purpose, but maybe not the one people wish for.

So you are another one of those Paul is a false apostle folks?

Just lay out what you believe happened to Paul, I would be curious your take.

What exactly is the severe warning? That Paul would suffer for his name sake?

As far as being blinded, we know that when Jesus was transfigured before his 3 disciples, it says his face did shine as the sun here

For example

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And that was also a vision, experienced by all three of them, none of which were blinded

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

So it was a vision.

And after Jesus had been risen from the dead Paul describes his vision of Jesus Christ

Acts 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

And here, Paul describes the light being above the brightness of the sun and says,

Acts 22:11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

 

[PS95]

• Did Annanias Witnessed the voices or seen the vision of Paul? NO!

why Must i explain this to you again;

Jesus never gave Paul a different message—He sent His disciples to “teach all nations … to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19–20), and He said the same gospel of the kingdom must go “to all the nations”(Matthew 24:14).

The men with Paul were not true witnesses; Acts 9:7 says “the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one,” while Paul later says, “those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me” (Acts 22:9). They could not confirm what was said.
do you agree with scripture or NOT?

Ananias met Paul only afterwards. He did not see the vision himself; he acted on what he was told in a separate vision (Acts 9:10–17). According to the Law, “by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established”(Deuteronomy 19:15), and no such confirming witnesses existed for Paul’s claim.

for 35 years I stopped reading the bible because of Paul I saw the discrepancies and I rejected His words than and doubted the bible because of his words.

Some people read Paul and do not see the difference or just ignore them but it is most important that everyone follows what Christ said before all else, it is why I am doing this, so people go back to the truth Christ told all of us to repent and sin no more and follow the commandments, this dealt to eternal life. Is this wrong to preach the gospel of Christ as He spoke it? DO not worry about me, instead worry for all those who left Christ for another Gospel.

Believe what you wand but many things Paul said are not inspired, I have described a few only.

The last thing I would want to happen to you is to stop reading the scriptures again. I'm glad you were able to begin again.
I am going to just keep you in my prayers. There is still a spirit of fear working in you, and I know that the Lord can help you.
I'm not going to go round and round about this. I know that there are several root issues where we differ. I have had my own struggles and only God was able to help me where no man could. I think you are in a similar spot. Look to Him and ask your questions about Paul ( do not presume that you do know already- be honest) and keep at it. He will help you. Be patient.

 

[Behold]

Behold we have discussed this in the past and I have proven that some of that you say is not what scripture says.

You've never proven anything that i teach is not Paul's Theology.
You can't as you dont know His Doctrine.
IN fact you wrote a deceptive Thread that has failed to prove that Paul isn't the SOLE Apostle who gave the body of Christ, all the Chruch Doctrine.

You wrote:"The Body of Christ didn't exist before Jesus died on The Cross."

Jesus was in Heaven when Paul was called.
So, there would be no verse in the NT where Jesus is going to talk about the body of Christ.
He couldn't talk about it with the Jews, during His ministry, as He had no died yet on The Cross yet to create the Body of Christ.

Who is the body of Christ?

everyone who is........become "the Temple of the Holy Spirit".

You wrote:"So, they had different ministries., thus, a different message."

Jesus sent His disciples to continue the same message He preached, “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you”

Paul was not among those original 12.
Paul was called by Christ later, after Jesus was back in heaven and given a specific ministry to the GENTILES.
None of Jesus's original disciples had this ministry.

Paul is the only "apostle to the Gentiles".

Jesus taught one gospel for all,

Jesus had not died on the Cross when He was ministering to the House of Israel (The Jews) so, it was impossible for Him, not having died for anyone's Sins......to tell then about it.

A.) NO CROSS = NO Gospel of Salvation, No Gospel of Grace......= Paul's Gospel is only related to Jesus on The Cross.

You're not thinking, @LoveYeshua

 

[LoveYeshua]

So you are another one of those Paul is a false apostle folks?

Just lay out what you believe happened to Paul, I would be curious your take.

What exactly is the severe warning? That Paul would suffer for his name sake?

As far as being blinded, we know that when Jesus was transfigured before his 3 disciples, it says his face did shine as the sun here

For example

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And that was also a vision, experienced by all three of them, none of which were blinded

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

So it was a vision.

And after Jesus had been risen from the dead Paul describes his vision of Jesus Christ

Acts 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

And here, Paul describes the light being above the brightness of the sun and says,

Acts 22:11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

According to scripture, what is needed to be an apostle?

Act 1:20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms: ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, ‘May another take his position.’

Act 1:21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Act 1:22 beginning from John’s baptism until the day Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Act 1:23 So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.

Paul does not fill any of these requirements NONE!

• He was not with Christ at the time of his ministry,
• He did not WITNESS the death and crucifixion of Jesus our Lord,
• He did not WITNESS the resurrection of Jesus,
• He did not Witness the ascension to Heaven of Jesus.

None of the apostles ever called Paul an apostle. ( yes I know about 2 peter 3 )

in revelations Rev 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Do you think Paul's name if on one of the foundations, we know it is not the case SO WHY PUT SO MUCH IMPORTANCE IN THE WORDS OS PAUL, A MAN WHO SAID THINGS CONTRARY TO WHAT CHRIST SAID?

The last thing I would want to happen to you is to stop reading the scriptures again. I'm glad you were able to begin again.
I am going to just keep you in my prayers. There is still a spirit of fear working in you, and I know that the Lord can help you.
I'm not going to go round and round about this. I know that there are several root issues where we differ. I have had my own struggles and only God was able to help me where no man could. I think you are in a similar spot. Look to Him and ask your questions about Paul ( do not presume that you do know already- be honest) and keep at it. He will help you. Be patient.

Know that I see and there are major contradictions between paul and Jesus that cannot be reconciled, since I follow Jesus I will always put what he said above all else and no one can remove this from me except GOD.

Now as for you both, I ask you to do your due diligence and consider seriously what I have written about the contradictions in scrioture and see for yourself, It will change nothing for you will not diminish your faith but will bring you closer to Christ our Lord.

Just think what yould change in your knowledge of Christ if the synoptic gospels were not in the bible, what would you know of Jesus, almost nothing apart from the cross.

Now do the reverse remove all of paul's epistles and what would be missing that Christ had not already said abd done? Almost nothing perhaps a few things about the church that paul calls the body of Christ?

why am I certain of What I say ?( it is irrevevant in this discussion since I have no witnesses, but Ill tell you) I saw Christ 2 times in visions and 2 times in dreams. but I have no withnesses. The only thing that remains is the memory and also a gift that was given me about when I believed a long time ago, the gift of knowledge, I did not know what it was and why I know thingsI have never seen and heard before and know them. I am telling you there is a problem with Paul. use caution. as well it is by christ alone that we are saved and By His words alone that we shall be judged.
By Christ alone we are saved

• John 14:6 – “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
• John 10:9 – “I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”
• John 8:12 – “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

By His words alone we shall be judged

• John 12:48 – “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”

What Christ said is true as always;

John 14:26 (NKJV):
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

and also;

Jesus said this in John 14:21 (NKJV):
“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

I confirm this happened to me and is all true. do this and see for yourself.

the book of John is my favorits of all times it is ro rich and true and reveals many things hidden.

I have discussed paul enough it is a heavy burden on my soul to speak of him and will no longer do so there are more important things do discuss (everything jesus said and done, too many have forgotten)

I spoke about Paul because I needed to so people can hopefully see by themselves and go back to Christ, many follow another but not Christ.

I will leave you soon, my work is finished on this forum. I have a lot of work to do and must spread the gospel of Christ, using his own words not mine. if you have afew questions PM me, I will reply then.


Peace be yith you.

 

[LoveYeshua]

You've never proven anything that i teach is not Paul's Theology.
You can't as you dont know His Doctrine.
IN fact you wrote a deceptive Thread that has failed to prove that Paul isn't the SOLE Apostle who gave the body of Christ, all the Chruch Doctrine.





Jesus was in Heaven when Paul was called.
So, there would be no verse in the NT where Jesus is going to talk about the body of Christ.
He couldn't talk about it with the Jews, during His ministry, as He had no died yet on The Cross yet to create the Body of Christ.

Who is the body of Christ?

everyone who is........become "the Temple of the Holy Spirit".



Paul was not among those original 12.
Paul was called by Christ later, after Jesus was back in heaven and given a specific ministry to the GENTILES.
None of Jesus's original disciples had this ministry.

Paul is the only "apostle to the Gentiles".




Jesus had not died on the Cross when He was ministering to the House of Israel (The Jews) so, it was impossible for Him, not having died for anyone's Sins......to tell then about it. to answer

A.) NO CROSS = NO Gospel of Salvation, No Gospel of Grace......= Paul's Gospel is only related to Jesus on The Cross.

You're not thinking, @LoveYeshua

Paul was not the only one to the gentiles, as I Have you shown you before;

Act 15:7 After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

and about what you wrote;
"Jesus had not died on the Cross when He was ministering to the House of Israel (The Jews) so, it was impossible for Him, not having died for anyone's Sins......to tell then about it. to answer"

Man of little faith, Jesus was one with God, had a mission, to do the will of his Father in Heaven, yes He knew why he came and that he would die to save the world that he would suffer for out transgressions, he told the disciples at the last supper and also we know he knew as per scripture proving it.

Mat 26:38 Then He said to them, “My soul is consumed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with Me.”

Mat 26:39 Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.”



the garden of Gethsemane that you have probably seen already where this happened and where our Lord Jesus was betrayed by Judas.


Peace.

 

[Muna]

According to scripture, what is needed to be an apostle?

Act 1:20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms: ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, ‘May another take his position.’

Act 1:21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Act 1:22 beginning from John’s baptism until the day Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Act 1:23 So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.

Paul does not fill any of these requirements NONE!

• He was not with Christ at the time of his ministry,
• He did not WITNESS the death and crucifixion of Jesus our Lord,
• He did not WITNESS the resurrection of Jesus,
• He did not Witness the ascension to Heaven of Jesus.

None of the apostles ever called Paul an apostle. ( yes I know about 2 peter 3 )

in revelations Rev 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Do you think Paul's name if on one of the foundations, we know it is not the case SO WHY PUT SO MUCH IMPORTANCE IN THE WORDS OS PAUL, A MAN WHO SAID THINGS CONTRARY TO WHAT CHRIST SAID?


Know that I see and there are major contradictions between paul and Jesus that cannot be reconciled, since I follow Jesus I will always put what he said above all else and no one can remove this from me except GOD.

Now as for you both, I ask you to do your due diligence and consider seriously what I have written about the contradictions in scrioture and see for yourself, It will change nothing for you will not diminish your faith but will bring you closer to Christ our Lord.

Just think what yould change in your knowledge of Christ if the synoptic gospels were not in the bible, what would you know of Jesus, almost nothing apart from the cross.

Now do the reverse remove all of paul's epistles and what would be missing that Christ had not already said abd done? Almost nothing perhaps a few things about the church that paul calls the body of Christ?

why am I certain of What I say ?( it is irrevevant in this discussion since I have no witnesses, but Ill tell you) I saw Christ 2 times in visions and 2 times in dreams. but I have no withnesses. The only thing that remains is the memory and also a gift that was given me about when I believed a long time ago, the gift of knowledge, I did not know what it was and why I know thingsI have never seen and heard before and know them. I am telling you there is a problem with Paul. use caution. as well it is by christ alone that we are saved and By His words alone that we shall be judged.
By Christ alone we are saved

• John 14:6 – “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
• John 10:9 – “I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”
• John 8:12 – “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

By His words alone we shall be judged

• John 12:48 – “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”

What Christ said is true as always;

John 14:26 (NKJV):
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

and also;

Jesus said this in John 14:21 (NKJV):
“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

I confirm this happened to me and is all true. do this and see for yourself.

the book of John is my favorits of all times it is ro rich and true and reveals many things hidden.

I have discussed paul enough it is a heavy burden on my soul to speak of him and will no longer do so there are more important things do discuss (everything jesus said and done, too many have forgotten)

I spoke about Paul because I needed to so people can hopefully see by themselves and go back to Christ, many follow another but not Christ.

I will leave you soon, my work is finished on this forum. I have a lot of work to do and must spread the gospel of Christ, using his own words not mine. if you have afew questions PM me, I will reply then.


Peace be yith you.

Just one question why would you use the book of Acts to justify one thing while condemning another. Paul is acknowledged as an apostle is in the same book of Acts

Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

 

[Muna]

Also, @LoveYeshua

In reckoning the two accounts which might appear to be slightly contradictory at the first (In one as Paul tells it, and in the other Luke tells it as you can see this in the wording between them) sometimes things can appear that way for example.

Speaking of Luke (who we know wrote Acts ) has also written an accounting that many people have wrestled with when they compare Luke's account to Matthews account here

Mat 1:13 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

To explain this, here is a short and somewhat fun to watch video bringing the two accounts in line

I always liked his presentation of this also.

 

[Behold]

Paul was not the only one to the gentiles, as I Have you shown you before;

10 Yrs after Jesus was back in Heaven, (Acts 10). Peter still didnt know that Gentiles could be saved.
So, 15 yrs after Jesus is back in heaven......Peter is talking about the gentiles yet, 10 yrs after Jesus was back in Heaven, Peter knew nothing aboiut it.
He certainly didnt know it in Acts 2.
So, Peter had Paul's letters and he learned about the Gentiles. but it was in Acts 10 that he was shown,
Yet he was never chosen to be the specific apostle to the gentiles, as this is Paul's title., and its Paul's Gospel that is THE Gospel, in the "time of the Gentiles" as we are still in it.

Also, There is a difference between an Apostle who preaches to gentiles........vs the only apostle who is titled "the Apostle to the Gentiles", as this is only Paul.

Paul was CALLED by Jesus to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, while Peter was simply shown that they could become God's redeemed.
Eventually all the apostle knew it.

Man of little faith, Jesus was one with God, had a mission, to do the will of his Father in Heaven, yes He knew why he came and that he would die to save the world that he would suffer for out transgressions,

Jesus had not "suffered for Transgressions" when he was ministering to the Jews (The House of Isreal).
This is why He didnt have a Gospel that told them that "Christ Crucified' is THE Gospel.

Paul said that "the preaching of the Cross" is the Gospel. or "we preach CHRIST Crucified".

 

[PS95]

According to scripture, what is needed to be an apostle?

Act 1:20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms: ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, ‘May another take his position.’

Act 1:21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Act 1:22 beginning from John’s baptism until the day Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Act 1:23 So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.

Paul does not fill any of these requirements NONE!

• He was not with Christ at the time of his ministry,
• He did not WITNESS the death and crucifixion of Jesus our Lord,
• He did not WITNESS the resurrection of Jesus,
• He did not Witness the ascension to Heaven of Jesus.

None of the apostles ever called Paul an apostle. ( yes I know about 2 peter 3 )

in revelations Rev 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Do you think Paul's name if on one of the foundations, we know it is not the case SO WHY PUT SO MUCH IMPORTANCE IN THE WORDS OS PAUL, A MAN WHO SAID THINGS CONTRARY TO WHAT CHRIST SAID?


Know that I see and there are major contradictions between paul and Jesus that cannot be reconciled, since I follow Jesus I will always put what he said above all else and no one can remove this from me except GOD.

Now as for you both, I ask you to do your due diligence and consider seriously what I have written about the contradictions in scrioture and see for yourself, It will change nothing for you will not diminish your faith but will bring you closer to Christ our Lord.

Just think what yould change in your knowledge of Christ if the synoptic gospels were not in the bible, what would you know of Jesus, almost nothing apart from the cross.

Now do the reverse remove all of paul's epistles and what would be missing that Christ had not already said abd done? Almost nothing perhaps a few things about the church that paul calls the body of Christ?

why am I certain of What I say ?( it is irrevevant in this discussion since I have no witnesses, but Ill tell you) I saw Christ 2 times in visions and 2 times in dreams. but I have no withnesses. The only thing that remains is the memory and also a gift that was given me about when I believed a long time ago, the gift of knowledge, I did not know what it was and why I know thingsI have never seen and heard before and know them. I am telling you there is a problem with Paul. use caution. as well it is by christ alone that we are saved and By His words alone that we shall be judged.
By Christ alone we are saved

• John 14:6 – “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
• John 10:9 – “I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”
• John 8:12 – “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

By His words alone we shall be judged

• John 12:48 – “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”

What Christ said is true as always;

John 14:26 (NKJV):
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

and also;

Jesus said this in John 14:21 (NKJV):
“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

I confirm this happened to me and is all true. do this and see for yourself.

the book of John is my favorits of all times it is ro rich and true and reveals many things hidden.

I have discussed paul enough it is a heavy burden on my soul to speak of him and will no longer do so there are more important things do discuss (everything jesus said and done, too many have forgotten)

I spoke about Paul because I needed to so people can hopefully see by themselves and go back to Christ, many follow another but not Christ.

I will leave you soon, my work is finished on this forum. I have a lot of work to do and must spread the gospel of Christ, using his own words not mine. if you have afew questions PM me, I will reply then.


Peace be yith you.

I can only say this to you LY. I'm pretty confident that I can set aside all of Paul's writings and still have the same understanding that I do now. I may be missing a thing or two but nothing of of real import that would change anything drastic.
I do not hold to the theology of many here who post a lot and who say they are only of Paul, or who ditch the Lord Jesus' pre- crucifixion teachings or teach no need for repentance and no confessing sins to one another. They are cherry pickers and they attempt upset the true faith of many with their confusions. There is one gospel. I am born again and God's spirit lives in me and helps me. I do not claim to have every answer to every question and that is a good thing which keeps me humble, but I do trust the Lord who has given me what I need so far. I was taught falsely when younger and it had a horrid impact on me, so I no longer rely on man . I had to begin from SCRATCH.
You can find every wind of heretical teachings on these forums- it's a real mess.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Just one question why would you use the book of Acts to justify one thing while condemning another. Paul is acknowledged as an apostle is in the same book of Acts

Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

who wrote the book of acts, look it up, paul's secretary with paul's words. only paul speaks of himself as an apostle no one of the 12 ever did

 

[LoveYeshua]

10 Yrs after Jesus was back in Heaven, (Acts 10). Peter still didnt know that Gentiles could be saved.
So, 15 yrs after Jesus is back in heaven......Peter is talking about the gentiles yet, 10 yrs after Jesus was back in Heaven, Peter knew nothing aboiut it.
He certainly didnt know it in Acts 2.

yes they all did the remaining 11;

Luk 24:44 Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.”

Luk 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. YES THEY KNEW ALL SCRIPTURE AND WHAT JESUS HAD FUlFILLED AND WHY!

Luk 24:46 And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

Luk 24:47 and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem.

Luk 24:48 You are witnesses of these things.

Luk 24:49 And behold, I am sending the promise of My Father upon you. But remain in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

jesus tols Paul whan the time came to go the the gentiles they had work still to do in the city!!

PauL never withessed any of this!!

The Great Commission​

Mat 28:16 Meanwhile, the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain Jesus had designated.

Mat 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted.

Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

Mat 28:20 and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

assuredly they did exactly as Jesus demanded and nothing else. when the time came they went to the gentiles.

So, Peter had Paul's letters and he learned about the Gentiles. but it was in Acts 10 that he was shown,
Yet he was never chosen to be the specific apostle to the gentiles, as this is Paul's title., and its Paul's Gospel that is THE Gospel, in the "time of the Gentiles" as we are still in it.

ridiculous Peter learned nothing from Paul, he knew much more tham Paul ever did

Also, There is a difference between an Apostle who preaches to gentiles........vs the only apostle who is titled "the Apostle to the Gentiles", as this is only Paul.

i have shorn you alteady scrioture that Peter was chosen by GOD to go to the gentiles but you refuse it you also refuse the words of jesus, you put paul first and you do NOT follow Jesus, wake up!!

Paul was CALLED by Jesus to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, while Peter was simply shown that they could become God's redeemed.
Eventually all the apostle knew it.

ridiculous, paul disliked the disciples of jesus and only went to see them once for a few days

Jesus had not "suffered for Transgressions" when he was ministering to the Jews (The House of Isreal).
This is why He didnt have a Gospel that told them that "Christ Crucified' is THE Gospel.

Paul said that "the preaching of the Cross" is the Gospel. or "we preach CHRIST Crucified".

jesus said to preach repentance from sin, follow the commandments and proclaim the Kingdom of Heaven, abd everything else Jesus did and sait incliding the cross. you have been decieved and do not know it.

 

[Behold]

yes they all did the remaining 11;

Your verse is Jesus talking to the Apostles, after He had risen from the Dead.
Jesus never preached this message while He was in His ministry, before He died.
He only told the 11, and they didnt understand it.
Its also complete, and was completed as Paul's Gospel.

Also, you notice that the verse says "repentance of sins"..........and Paul's gospel does not preach "repentance".
So, we see already that the Gospel that Jesus gave Paul, is different, as Paul's preaches "FAITH"...and "Christ Crucified" . is Justification.
No works
No Water Baptism.

Also, your verse correlates with Mark 16, which is not the Gospel.
See, the Gospel that Paul preaches has no water baptism in it.

It has no "repentance" and no "water baptism"...

In Fact Paul said "Christ sent me not to water baptize", which shows us that he is making the distincition between the "repent and get wet".....and the "Grace through Faith" that is Paul's Gospel.

So, as we look closely we see that your Matt verse, is again talking about "repent and be water baptized", and this is NOT Paul's Gospel.
That is the MaryCult idea of Salvation.........not Paul's.

Paul's Gospel is "The Preaching of the Cross"......"All who BELIEVE shall be saved"......>"Faith is counted as righteousness", and "Justification is by Faith alone ".....no water baptism required and no works accepted.

That's Paul's Gospel, and its the one that Jesus gave to Him, that is to be proclaimed in "the time of the gentiles".......and we are in it.

 

[Muna]

who wrote the book of acts, look it up, paul's secretary with paul's words. only paul speaks of himself as an apostle no one of the 12 ever did

Acts mentions a former treatise, you do not regard this as Luke?

Because he writes,

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

The former treatise that is mentioned in Acts is within the scope of time mentions in which he describes the same as is mentioned back in Luke

Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

 

[Muna]

who wrote the book of acts, look it up, paul's secretary with paul's words. only paul speaks of himself as an apostle no one of the 12 ever did

They would have called secretary's scribes

That was not an uncommon practice to have someone (a scribe) to write at a prophets mouth, because that is what they did

Baruch was such a scribe (Jerm 36:10 & Jerm 36:26)

Jerm 36:4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.

And Jesus himself said he would send the same here

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

 

[LoveYeshua]

They would have called secretary's scribes

That was not an uncommon practice to have someone (a scribe) to write at a prophets mouth, because that is what they did

Baruch was such a scribe (Jerm 36:10 & Jerm 36:26)

Jerm 36:4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.

And Jesus himself said he would send the same here

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

I know about scribes, Paul was a rich man, well instructed by Gamaliel in scripture and writing forms to provoke interest and at the same time convince, he was a good salesman and did a great job promoting Jesus sacrifice but diluted the message of Christ by doing so. Do you know what family paul was from?

 

[Muna]

Acts mentions a former treatise, you do not regard this as Luke?

Because he writes,

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

The former treatise that is mentioned in Acts is within the scope of time mentions in which he describes the same as is mentioned back in Luke

Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Try it this way between Acts and Luke also

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Which former treatise lands us right back in Luke where Theophilus is mentioned again here as well

Luke 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

 

[LoveYeshua]

Acts mentions a former treatise, you do not regard this as Luke?

Because he writes,

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

The former treatise that is mentioned in Acts is within the scope of time mentions in which he describes the same as is mentioned back in Luke

Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

yes i agree but are you suggesting paul was part of this? when this event took place, paul, just as a reveneous wolf was tearing Christians apart who followed Jesus. at one pont Paul WAS converted but not then.

 

[Muna]

I know about scribes,

You didn't appear to when you said, "who wrote the book of acts, look it up, paul's secretary with paul's words"

Wouldn't this be Luke telling the story (the way this is worded here)

Acts 9:4 And HE fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto HIM, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

And then wouldn't this be Paul telling the story (the way this is worded here)

Acts 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto ME, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Is that what is problematic?

Paul was a rich man, well instructed by Gamaliel in scripture

Phil.3​

[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung,
that I may win Christ,

and writing forms to provoke interest

2 Thes 3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

and at the same time convince,

Acts 6:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

he was a good salesman and did a great job promoting Jesus sacrifice but diluted the message of Christ by doing so.

Don't leave me guessing here

Do you know what family paul was from?

Romans 11:1 ...For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

And waits for it....