Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan

[Lambano]

Nowhere does Jesus give a clear doctrinal teaching or definition of “Satan” as a fallen angel or supernatural rebel.

Why would He need to, since that seems to be widely accepted in His culture? Except perhaps among the Sadducees, whose lack of belief in other supernatural beings was unusual enough that Dr. Luke felt it necessary to explain it to his target audience in Acts 23:8.

 

[dak]

Here’s a question for the group:

Why is it that in every single prophetic passage where Jesus speaks about AD 70 or the end times, he never once mentions this supposed evil supernatural being?

Take the Olivet Prophecy, for example.

What does the Lord actually say?

“Take heed that no man deceive you; for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (Matt., Mark, Luke), and the time draweth near (Luke), and shall deceive many (Matt., Mark). Go not after them” (Luke).

This would have been the ideal moment for Jesus to introduce such a being, yet he doesn’t - not once!. Instead, he attributes the deception to people.

Why is it that all the persecution he speaks of refers to people, brother against brother, or authorities laying hands on believers etc, BUT never once is this so-called evil creature mentioned?

Isn’t that telling?

Is this an issue?

If there truly were a central, supernatural evil being, such as a fallen angel, directly orchestrating deception and persecution, then Jesus' silence on this figure in key prophetic teachings (like the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) raises serious questions.

Instead of warning against a devilish power behind the scenes, Jesus consistently points to human deception, false teachers, and political and religious turmoil as the sources of danger and misguidance.

Have you misinterpreted the meaning of these words and failed to consider the true context in which they are used?

The verse you quote does not have the word for a man in it. You really need to study for yourself, in prayer, and stop being led by men, (translator/interpreters).

Matthew 24:4 N/A, T/R, BYZ, W/H
4 και αποκριθεις ο ιησους ειπεν αυτοις βλεπετε μη τις υμας πλανηση

τις ~ anyone or anything in this context. And moreover they often do the same with G3762 ουδεις.

Matthew 24:36 T/R
36 περι δε της ημερας εκεινης και της ωρας ουδεις οιδεν ουδε οι αγγελοι των ουρανων ει μη ο πατηρ μου μονος

But at least here in this instance the KJV places man in Italics so that the reader may know that it is not actually in the Greek text.

Matthew 24:36 KJV
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Here ουδεις should be read as no one or none.

Your entire point is moot because it is based on a misunderstanding of the scripture which is only due to a lack of scripture study on your own part.

 

[David in NJ]

Here’s a question for the group:

Why is it that in every single prophetic passage where Jesus speaks about AD 70 or the end times, he never once mentions this supposed evil supernatural being?

Umm...............Jesus spoke loud and clear on 70AD and the 'End Times'
And
Jesus met face to face with supernatural evil...................try reading the Bible and you can start with the gospel of John

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Poor translation - should read messengers.

No such thing as an evil angel.

Only Holy Angels correct.

My take on it all...
Lucifer was the bright morning star, the most beautiful, powerful and gifted of all the angels. Yet pride got to the best of him when he found out that man would be created in God's image and loved in such a way that all angels would be at their service to protect them. Guardians our servants if you will. This idea makes man more valuable and loved than angels. He got envious and jealous; so he rebelled, refused to serve and love mankind. He took 1/3 of the angels with him ( tens of millions ... liley 200 million).
Lucifer's name was changed (as God sometimes does) to Satan.
Did this catch God off guard? No, it was part of His Perfect Plan!
Evil already existed before Adam and Eve's sin due to the fact that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was already placed in the Garden along with Satan ( who is btw, The Main Devil). His fallen fallen angels are demons/ devils as well, who are capable of possessing man (but only an unregenerate man).
The conundrum is that though Satan and his demons rebelled against God, they cannot do anything unless they have God's permission! See the story of Job, this verifies this fact. What does that mean? It means that God is Sovereign, in control of Good and Evil AND all the angels, holy or not. Throughout history, He balances and restrains evil and basically creates it for a purpose.
Outrageous ? NO, it's not.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things". Isaiah 45:7
Other translations use camalities, disasters, troubles, woes, etc., instead of evil. But the individual who is actually suffering these things thinks of it as evil, regardless of where the source comes from. Whether it is put there for punishment, judgment or to test our faith, God uses it.
What is one of God's purposes for His sheep, other than to be reconciled to Him through Christ? To know Good and Evil, so that we can appreciate and know God better. We could not know what forgiveness, love, mercy, kindness, joy, hope, faith, goodness, truth, light, blessings and all His attributes meant unless we really experienced life's darkness without them.
And so is the story of man, written through the fabric of time, with good and evil, a journey that we must experience to eventually receive and enter into His Eternal Light and be perfected.
Now, after the consummation of His purposes for man have been realized, there is no need for an eternal Hell, where destruction would have no real meaning as we know it. You cannot destroy something for eternity, that would be an indestructible destruction or imperishable persishing. And so there would be no need for souls in an eternal prison for committing only a few decades of sinful life. Is that fair? God has always been fair and dealt out punishment proportionate to the crime. And in the end evil, Satan and his demons will have served their purpose - no need for them anymore either. Though they sinned, they ultimately served God's purpose. Death, Hades ( and everyone in it), the 1st heavens and 1st earth will be destroyed and replaced. Evil will no longer exist. But we will remember where we came from. The idea of the Traditonal Church's concept of Eternal Hell needs to be reexaminef. Anionios has variable meanings. When applied to a our temporal realm it means: ages, lifetimes, generations, epochs; not eternity. Even applied to God, His domain, thenit means eternal. We enter into that eternity, but for us it is not eternity past, it eternity future, going forward infinitely.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Why would He need to, since that seems to be widely accepted in His culture?

Evidence

Except perhaps among the Sadducees, whose lack of belief in other supernatural beings was unusual enough that Dr. Luke felt it necessary to explain it to his target audience in Acts 23:8.

This was a lame response Lambano.

You're saying the greatest threat to mankind was totally ignore by Christ.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Umm...............Jesus spoke loud and clear on 70AD and the 'End Times'

Just not about a creature you have fabricated in your mind?

And
Jesus met face to face with supernatural evil...................try reading the Bible and you can start with the gospel of John

Did he? This is the evidence which you are missing.

 

[Hiddenthings]

My take on it all...
Lucifer was the bright morning star, the most beautiful, powerful and gifted of all the angels.

Can you show me the evidence for Lucifer being an angel.

Thanks

 

[David in NJ]

Just not about a creature you have fabricated in your mind?

Did he? This is the evidence which you are missing.

EVIDENCE From the Mind of Christ = Revelation 20:1-3

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain.
2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

Eyewitness Evidence = Acts
Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.

15And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”

16Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against [d]them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 18And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds. 19Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.

 

[Hiddenthings]

EVIDENCE From the Mind of Christ = Revelation 20:1-3

Don’t jump to the end of the Bible and a highly symbolic book, David.

Let’s stay focused on the clear fact: Jesus never once directly encounters or teaches about this so-called being throughout his ministry.

Here’s the truth, whatever happened in Matthew 4, whether the adversary was his own internal struggle or an opposing person, I guarantee you he faced and addressed that same kind of opposition during his ministry. You know I’m right, and you know I can prove it.

Can you?

 

[Hiddenthings]

This topic and original post demand a level of honesty that can be uncomfortable for many Christians, because it forces the recognition that there’s simply no solid evidence to prove the existence of this creature. But reaching that point of honesty is actually empowering. It opens the door for believers to truly explore how the biblical writers used these terms and understand the context in which they were originally written.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It should be noted that @Matthias started this thread, not me!

Even Matthias is on the run here To see how the new believers are doing

Because his faith is in contradiction with what is written, and he will not deal with it honestly, or openly.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Would someone like to assist Aunty Jane here?

The last hour

I didn't ask for this Jane. I asked you a simple question that requires a simple answer. Literal or symbolic? O good grief mate….now we have a courtroom drama and only a simple answer will suffice. I don’t like simple answers as they are often deceptive, leaving out vital information that...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Hiddenthings]

The verse you quote does not have the word for a man in it. You really need to study for yourself, in prayer, and stop being led by men, (translator/interpreters).

Matthew 24:4 N/A, T/R, BYZ, W/H
4 και αποκριθεις ο ιησους ειπεν αυτοις βλεπετε μη τις υμας πλανηση

τις ~ anyone or anything in this context. And moreover they often do the same with G3762 ουδεις.

Matthew 24:36 T/R
36 περι δε της ημερας εκεινης και της ωρας ουδεις οιδεν ουδε οι αγγελοι των ουρανων ει μη ο πατηρ μου μονος

But at least here in this instance the KJV places man in Italics so that the reader may know that it is not actually in the Greek text.

Matthew 24:36 KJV
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Here ουδεις should be read as no one or none.

Your entire point is moot because it is based on a misunderstanding of the scripture which is only due to a lack of scripture study on your own part.

You’ve missed the point, Dak! And even in your response, you still haven’t provided a single piece of evidence for this so-called creature. We’re well past the stage of pretending evidence exists, we’re now at the point in this discussion where we need to honestly accept that there is none, and face the implications of that reality.

“Watch out that no one misleads you.” Matthew 24:4

Do you honestly believe that when Jesus says “no one” or refers to people, he’s secretly warning about some fallen angel deceiving you?

Your previous post misses the mark completely. It undermines the clarity of the Lord’s teaching and comes across as a weak attempt to reinterpret his plain words.

The point remains valid, there is no record in the Lord’s ministry where he addresses or teaches any of the ideas you hold about this so-called creature. None of that is found in his words or actions.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Dr. Luke felt it necessary to explain it to his target audience in Acts 23:8.

Lambano, you quote Acts 23:8 which you acknowledge mentions nothing about fallen angels but divine angels.

Acts 23:8 (ESV): For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

Did Jesus speak about angels during his ministry? Yes.
Did he teach on the resurrection? Yes.
Did he refer to the Spirit? Yes.

But did he ever mention a fallen angel or a supernatural evil being? No.

So, your argument that “He didn’t have to” doesn’t hold up, because we can point to clear Scriptural evidence for each of the topics he did address, and there’s nothing at all to support the claim that he taught about a rebellious angelic being.

As for those minions @David Lamb @dak @Matthias @talons who liked your post - they should "do their homework" and not be so easily led.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Why would He need to, since that seems to be widely accepted in His culture? Except perhaps among the Sadducees, whose lack of belief in other supernatural beings was unusual enough that Dr. Luke felt it necessary to explain it to his target audience in Acts 23:8.

This wasn't one of your finest moments Lambano! I think you'll have regret about your approach here.

 

[David in NJ]

Don’t jump to the end of the Bible and a highly symbolic book, David.

Let’s stay focused on the clear fact: Jesus never once directly encounters or teaches about this so-called being throughout his ministry.

Here’s the truth, whatever happened in Matthew 4, whether the adversary was his own internal struggle or an opposing person, I guarantee you he faced and addressed that same kind of opposition during his ministry. You know I’m right, and you know I can prove it.

Can you?

Eyewitness Testimonial Evidence

The Eyewitness is the Lord Jesus Christ = i would not call Him a liar

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

4But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

5Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:

‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’
and,

‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ”
7Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ”

8Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

10Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”

11Then the Devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

 

[Hiddenthings]

11Then the Devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

...and we are seeking the identity of this false accuser David.

We are past copy and pasting text - we need evidence of the identity of your creature.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@David in NJ let me help you.

Jesus clearly identifies the adversary in Matthew 16:23 and Mark 8:33 as Peter, more specifically, Peter’s mindset in that moment. You and I both know Peter isn’t a fallen angel. So the real question remains: where, in all the Gospels, is your so-called fallen angel identified?

Let’s keep it focused. No need for long, pasted texts.

Just provide the evidence, David.

 

[dak]

You’ve missed the point, Dak! And even in your response, you still haven’t provided a single piece of evidence for this so-called creature. We’re well past the stage of pretending evidence exists, we’re now at the point in this discussion where we need to honestly accept that there is none, and face the implications of that reality.

Ignoring every scripture quote that someone else provides to you for evidence is simply denial of what is actually written.

“Watch out that no one misleads you.” Matthew 24:4

Do you honestly believe that when Jesus says “no one” or refers to people, he’s secretly warning about some fallen angel deceiving you?

The entire short epistle of Jude is a discourse on Sefer Henok. Just because you might see anthropos in a statement that does not mean it is always speaking of a human being. Anthropos also means man-faced, in other words the countenance of man. The Krubim with four wings and four faces in Ezekiel have the face or countenance of a man: that does not mean they are men. One of the four Seraphim roundabout the throne in the Apocalypse, (having six wings, as in Isaiah 6), has the face or countenance of a man: that does not mean he is a man. The fallen ones in Sefer Henok are also likened to men but they are not men.

Genesis 6:4 ~ Nephilim, Gibborim, enashei-hashem -- men of renown, men having been named, those of old time.

Jude 1:4 ASV
4 For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Do you honestly believe that mortal men can creep in unawares alongside you and pollute your understanding of what you read like jagged rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you while you are feasting in the Word?

The point remains valid, there is no record in the Lord’s ministry where he addresses or teaches any of the ideas you hold about this so-called creature. None of that is found in his words or actions.

Matthew 10:16-18
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be therefore wise like the serpents, (Seraphim), and harmless as the Doves.
17 But beware of the anthropon man-faced: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues,
18 And you shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the heathen.

And again, the kingdom of Elohim is within you, Luke 17:20-21.
Your apocalypse will not be televised.

 

[Matthias]

Remember the Chritadelphian definition of “demon”.

The man has told us repeatedly that he is a demon. Some of you still need to accept that he is and then ask yourselves what the point is of arguing with him. He cannot be persuaded.

There’s no conversation to be had with him. He’s a plug and play— “Agree with me or you’re crazy.“ - and a stalker / harasser.