Origin stories which don’t exist for people, places and things mentioned in the Bible

[Hiddenthings]

I would ask you if God gave the serpent the ability to talk AND knowledge why would God later put a curse on the serpent ?

Great question! I love it when believers think! Wonderful!!!

Have you considered the answer within the bounds of Scripture?

 

[Hiddenthings]

@talons @pandaflower

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this"

Done what?

Be careful how you answer this because to do so impacts on what the serpent represents and how God deals with His Creation.

It's better to really think about this carefully.

 

[pandaflower]

Correct

They had a choice Panda, but given their inexperience and immaturity they would never be able to withstand the temptation from their nature. Also keep in mind God knows all and He knew His future Son was needed to overcome that nature!

This is why the creation of a ventriloquist-like narrative involving a fallen angel is nonsensical once you grasp God's plan in the Garden. He placed the two trees there and provided the perfect environment for them to be tested.

Anything outside of this is false teaching.

The charge of false teaching can at times be levied at those with whom we disagree.

Rather than there being actual false doctrine being perpetrated in a thread, what can occur is something people didn't think about before when reading Bible narratives.

In reality, I think if we read the Bible we will see God tells us,everything that occurs is by his plan and for his glory.

I don't believe Adam and Eve had any choice but to obey God's plan.

Christians are to strive to have the mind of Christ. Christ was God made flesh.

Adam and Eve obtained the mind of God,knowing good and evil,after eating of the tree.

 

[pandaflower]

@talons @pandaflower

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this"

Done what?

Be careful how you answer this because to do so impacts on what the serpent represents and how God deals with His Creation.

It's better to really think about this carefully.

The serpent helped bring God's plan to fruition.

It was a plan. Sin would not have entered this world if God didn't put a tree off limits in the garden .

 

[Hiddenthings]

The serpent helped bring God's plan to fruition.

It was a plan. Sin would not have entered this world if God didn't put a tree off limits in the garden .

It's amazing how many people would disagree with you, I don't.

The Serpent was created to do two things:

1. Give voice to the thinking of the flesh
2. Test the first pair

So how was God Holy & Righteous to judge and sentence the Serpent as asked by @talons

Well, the Serpents fleshly mind was incapable of rising to faith, lacking the inherent ability to believe; therefore, its speech could only reflect earthly thoughts. Faith was beyond its reach. The light of God’s law could not penetrate it. Like all lower animals, it was a creature driven solely by sensation, able only to produce sounds formed from impressions received through its five senses. However, it surpassed other animals by being more observant and capable of reasoning.

The judgement pronounced upon it, motive was irrelevant!

What mattered was what the serpent had done, not what it intended.

It was incapable of moral intent. Though it did not mean to deceive, it did deceive, and so it was called a deceiver. It did not intend to lie, yet it did lie, hence becoming a liar and the father of lies. It did not aim to cause the woman’s death, but it brought her under the sentence of death, therefore, it was a murderer. In this way, it became the spiritual ancestor of all intentional liars, deceivers, unbelievers, and killers of men, who are referred to as “the serpent’s seed.”

A word of caution: God judges the ungodly not because they know Him, but because they interfere with His plan and purpose with Creation. As the Creator and Sustainer of all life, He is fully justified in judging anyone who opposes His will.

Once these truths are grasped, the entire biblical narrative becomes clear, eliminating the need for a rebellious angel theory. What this does require, however, is a careful search of Scripture to understand those challenging passages, which are not about a rebel angel but convey a different message altogether.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I would ask you if God gave the serpent the ability to talk AND knowledge why would God later put a curse on the serpent ?
What knowledge did the serpent have , knowledge of who God was , knowledge of of God's conversation with Adam , knowledge of death .

Knowledge of someone who had already defected from God's camp as we read here .

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The assumption is that this was the first conversation the serpent engaged in with Adam and Eve.
ebible.com.questions

 

[talons]

The assumption is that this was the first conversation the serpent engaged in with Adam and Eve.
ebible.com.questions

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View attachment 67328

Can you answer my question ? No one has so far .

 

[pandaflower]

It's amazing how many people would disagree with you, I don't.

The Serpent was created to do two things:

1. Give voice to the thinking of the flesh
2. Test the first pair

So how was God Holy & Righteous to judge and sentence the Serpent as asked by @talons

Well, the Serpents fleshly mind was incapable of rising to faith, lacking the inherent ability to believe; therefore, its speech could only reflect earthly thoughts. Faith was beyond its reach. The light of God’s law could not penetrate it. Like all lower animals, it was a creature driven solely by sensation, able only to produce sounds formed from impressions received through its five senses. However, it surpassed other animals by being more observant and capable of reasoning.

The judgement pronounced upon it, motive was irrelevant!

What mattered was what the serpent had done, not what it intended.

It was incapable of moral intent. Though it did not mean to deceive, it did deceive, and so it was called a deceiver. It did not intend to lie, yet it did lie, hence becoming a liar and the father of lies. It did not aim to cause the woman’s death, but it brought her under the sentence of death, therefore, it was a murderer. In this way, it became the spiritual ancestor of all intentional liars, deceivers, unbelievers, and killers of men, who are referred to as “the serpent’s seed.”

A word of caution: God judges the ungodly not because they know Him, but because they interfere with His plan and purpose with Creation. As the Creator and Sustainer of all life, He is fully justified in judging anyone who opposes His will.

Once these truths are grasped, the entire biblical narrative becomes clear, eliminating the need for a rebellious angel theory. What this does require, however, is a careful search of Scripture to understand those challenging passages, which are not about a rebel angel but convey a different message altogether.

The assumption is that this was the first conversation the serpent engaged in with Adam and Eve.
ebible.com.questions

View attachment 67329



View attachment 67328

It is speculation to think the serpent had earlier encounters with Adam or Eve.

Adam and Eve followed the leading of the serpent to eat because they didn't know any better. They were innocent in the face of a cunning higher intelligence .

They had to eat because God intended them to fall.

 

[talons]

It is speculation to think the serpent had earlier encounters with Adam or Eve.

True ! I agree .

Adam and Eve followed the leading of the serpent to eat because they didn't know any better.

Of course they knew better ! God gave instructions for them to follow just as he gives us instructions to follow , there is a lesson being taught in this scripture . Obey God ! They had one commandment to follow .
Choose not to obey God and you will fool around and find out !

They were innocent in the face of a cunning higher intelligence .

The cunning higher intelligence is coming for us too ! Will we choose to obey God ? ! ?

ChatGPT Gave Instructions for Murder, Self-Mutilation, and Devil Worship

OpenAI’s chatbot also said “Hail Satan.”

www.aol.com

Do you believe in Satan as an entity ?

1 Peter 5

8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

They had to eat because God intended them to fall.

Scripture to support this above ?

 

[pandaflower]

True ! I agree .

Of course they knew better ! God gave instructions for them to follow just as he gives us instructions to follow , there is a lesson being taught in this scripture . Obey God ! They had one commandment to follow .
Choose not to obey God and you will fool around and find out !

The cunning higher intelligence is coming for us too ! Will we choose to obey God ? ! ?

Do you believe in Satan as an entity ?

1 Peter 5

8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:



Scripture to support this above ?

How could they know better? God issued his first commandment on earth to two people who were spiritually minded. And had no understanding of what it meant to choose to obey or not obey.

Knowing good and evil,is like unto knowing right from wrong.

They were banished from Eden so they wouldn't later eat of the tree of life so to live forever.

Now,there were two people like God in the world,knowing good and evil. Cursed for it.

He to live by the sweat of his brow,she to suffer pain in child birth.

Then,they went out from Eden into the world as sinners. And to appease God later for sins committed,to cover the offense, animals , incapable of sin,were sacrificed. Why?
How does killing an innocent animal blot out the wrong choice of man?

What we ignore in the OT is that humans were also sacrificed for sins.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

What Satan as the serpent did was to pose a question such that Eve felt that she had to solve the issue herself rather than to ask God what the answer was. The same tactic is used today by Satan.

Genesis 2:17 reads this way IMHO: -

Genesis 2:16-17: - 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die the second death."​

What this tells us is that if and when we sin, we become a candidate to die the second death at the time of the Final Judgement in the distant future.

God through Ezekiel, in chapter Ez 18, tells us that if we will repent of our "sin" against God that He will forgive us of our "sin" and let us have everlasting life at the time of the Final Judgement.

This understanding of Gen 2:17 simplifies the intent of this verse and we do not need to invent another meaning. The nations that lived around Abraham during his lifetime also understood this, however because of their disconnect from God many remained a candidate for the Second Death outcome when they are finally judged.

 

[pandaflower]

True ! I agree .

Of course they knew better ! God gave instructions for them to follow just as he gives us instructions to follow , there is a lesson being taught in this scripture . Obey God ! They had one commandment to follow .
Choose not to obey God and you will fool around and find out !

The cunning higher intelligence is coming for us too ! Will we choose to obey God ? ! ?

ChatGPT Gave Instructions for Murder, Self-Mutilation, and Devil Worship

OpenAI’s chatbot also said “Hail Satan.”

www.aol.com

Do you believe in Satan as an entity ?

1 Peter 5

8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Scripture to support this above ?

Sure. You just have to put them together to see it.

Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation,creation,of the world.

Revelation tells us the Lamb's Book of Eternal Life was written before the foundation of the world. And contains the names of all who are redeemed,saved,in Christ.

 

[Stumpmaster]

They had to eat because God intended them to fall.

I don't think so. That's not how Omniscience works.

Jas 1:13-15 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. (14) But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. (15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I would ask you if God gave the serpent the ability to talk AND knowledge why would God later put a curse on the serpent ?
What knowledge did the serpent have , knowledge of who God was , knowledge of of God's conversation with Adam , knowledge of death .

Knowledge of someone who had already defected from God's camp as we read here .

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

In prefall Eden everything was perfect. The serpent was OK until he incited Eve to disobey. Eve was OK until she believed it was OK to disobey. Adam was OK until he saw Eve disobey.

What got into the serpent?

The allegories of Lucifer in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are rich with symbolic language and theological depth, often interpreted as depicting a celestial being who overstepped divine authority through pride and ambition. Here's a breakdown of the key themes and interpretations:

Isaiah 14:12–15 — The Ambition to Ascend​

This passage is traditionally seen as a taunt against the King of Babylon, but many theologians interpret it as a typological allegory of Lucifer’s fall:

• "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" — The name Lucifer (Latin for "light-bearer") is derived from the Hebrew helel, meaning "shining one" or "morning star".
• Five “I will” declarations(vv.13–14) reveal Lucifer’s pride:
  • “I will ascend to heaven”
  • “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God”
  • “I will sit on the mount of assembly”
  • “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds”
  • “I will be like the Most High”
• These statements reflect a desire to usurp divine authority, elevating himself to godhood.
• The consequence: “You are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit” — a symbolic descent from glory to judgment.

---

Ezekiel 28:11–19 — The Guardian Cherub’s Fall
This passage begins as a lament for the King of Tyre, but shifts into language that many believe refers to Lucifer’s pre-fall state and rebellion:

• “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty” — Describes an exalted being, often interpreted as Lucifer.
• “You were in Eden, the garden of God” — Suggests a primordial presence, beyond human kingship.
• “You were an anointed guardian cherub” — Indicates a high-ranking angelic role, possibly overseeing worship or divine order.
• “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty” — Pride is again the root of rebellion.
• “I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God” — A dramatic expulsion from divine presence and authority.

---

Symbolic and Typological Interpretations

• Both passages use earthly kings (Babylon and Tyre) as symbolic stand-ins for spiritual rebellion.
• Scholars debate whether these texts refer directly to Satan or use dual references — blending historical rulers with archetypal pride and fall.
• The imagery of ascending and being cast down mirrors ancient Near Eastern myths about celestial beings and the planet Venus (the morning star).

---

️ Theological Implications

• Lucifer’s fall is often seen as the origin of sin, predating Adam’s fall.
• His rebellion is a cautionary tale about pride, ambition, and the corruption of authority.
• The transformation from light-bearer to adversary (Satan) marks a shift from divine stewardship to cosmic opposition.

 

[pandaflower]

I don't think so. That's not how Omniscience works.

Jas 1:13-15 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil,

That part of the verse isn't consistent.

Let no one say they are tempted by God.

God cannot be tempted by evil.

nor does He Himself tempt anyone. (14) But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. (15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

The balance of that verse is a play on semantics.
God tested people.
The serpent in Eden tempted Eve.
Where did the serpent's intellect and agenda come from if not from God? Who also created a talking serpent he let know of his ultimatum regarding the Tree of Knowledge.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That part of the verse isn't consistent.

Let no one say they are tempted by God.

God cannot be tempted by evil.

The balance of that verse is a play on semantics.
God tested people.
The serpent in Eden tempted Eve.
Where did the serpent's intellect and agenda come from if not from God? Who also created a talking serpent he let know of his ultimatum regarding the Tree of Knowledge.

Panda, once someone imposes their religious beliefs onto Genesis 3:1 and disregards what the Word of God actually says through the serpent, it becomes difficult to reach them. They often need to be confronted with the implications of their interpretation before they’re willing to reconsider.

They either speak to the Word or the Word speaks to them.

Genesis 3:1 serves as a litmus test to reveal who truly acknowledges God as their teacher.

 

[pandaflower]

Panda, once someone imposes their religious beliefs onto Genesis 3:1 and disregards what the Word of God actually says through the serpent, it becomes difficult to reach them. They often need to be confronted with the implications of their interpretation before they’re willing to reconsider.

They either speak to the Word or the Word speaks to them.

Genesis 3:1 serves as a litmus test to reveal who truly acknowledges God as their teacher.

God is my teacher.

God let Satan tempt Job's commitment to his faith. God told Satan he could do anything in that regard except kill Job.

 

[Hiddenthings]

God is my teacher.

God let Satan tempt Job's commitment to his faith. God told Satan he could do anything in that regard except kill Job.

But God is the one who did it all - the adversary only presented the challenge to God - human satan only.

 

[pandaflower]

But God is the one who did it all -

I agree,God is the one that did it all.

the adversary only presented the challenge to God - human satan only.

Would you reword that please? I don't get your meaning.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I agree,God is the one that did it all.

Would you reword that please? I don't get your meaning.

The issue with the subject is defining the true nature of the adversary (satan) - none can be found - there is no Scripture in the Bible which defines a fallen angel as an adversary.