What happened to the 10 toes in Daniel 2?

[Jay Ross]

Just a little point to consider, the prophecy of the ten toes of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy, we have already seen, when they took dominion over the Land of Babylon in 2003 with the invasion of Iraq by twenty nations. Jeremiah 50-51, written around 19 years later confirms this. And Rev 16:19 prophecies that Babylon/Iraq will be remembered once more after 1926 when Britain and France divided up the Otterman Empire after WW1 and has given her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.

Now since the Roman Empire is no more and since there is no "revived Roman Empire," claims/posts along this line are meaningless.

Now in around 20 years' time, Isaiah's prophecy in Isaiah 24:21-22 will be fulfilled and the "Anit-Christ" will not become a reality until he is released from the Bottomless Pit after being imprisoned for many days, i.e. for 1,000 years to await the time of his punishment along with the other judged heavenly hosts.

Shalom

The above is what I had posted in a previous post.

The fourth segment of the statue, the two legs of iron is the nation of Iraq which was established in 1926 AD

The fifth segment of the statue, the feet is found in these verses from Daniel 2: -

32 This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.​

​

41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.​

Notice that in verse 44 that God informs us in the days of these kings, which are the toes of the feet, the God of Heaven will set up an everlasting kingdom which we are also told in Daniel 7:13-14 with be given to the Son of man, i.e. Christ: -

13 "I was watching in the night visions,​

And behold, One like the Son of Man,​

Coming with the clouds of heaven!​

He came to the Ancient of Days,​

And they brought Him near before Him. ​

14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,​

That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.​

His dominion is an everlasting dominion,​

Which shall not pass away,​

And His kingdom the one​

Which shall not be destroyed​

I just wonder if the above prophecies are presently unfolding, during this present time?

 

[quietthinker]

I apologize if that is how I am coming across. So, if you would like to ask a question for everyone to respond to, or offer your own set of interpretations on this topic, that would be great. And if there is an interest after identifying the 4 kingdoms and we might focus on what the clay and the 10 toes symbolize, then we might continue to learn others thoughts ...

Now, if you have something to share, I would love to hear it....

There is not a great amount to say. Nebuchadnezzar's dream and its interpretation is pretty straight forward.

 

[CTK]

There is not a great amount to say. Nebuchadnezzar's dream and its interpretation is pretty straight forward.

Very well, then do you want to share what the clay in the feet represents? Do you want to share what the 10 toes represents?

Look forward to your response.

 

[quietthinker]

Very well, then do you want to share what the clay in the feet represents? Do you want to share what the 10 toes represents?

Look forward to your response.

see post #38

 

[CTK]

see post #38

Yes here is your response from post #38:


Head of Gold = Babylon
Arms and chest of Silver = Medo-Persia
Belly and thighs of Bronze = Greece
Legs of Iron = Rome
Feet and toes of Iron and Clay = The divided kingdoms of the World many of which emanated from the collapse of the Roman Empire; some strong some weak.
The Stone which destroys all these kingdoms of men = The second coming of Jesus.

Further chapters of Daniel focus in and give more detail/ information of these Kingdoms

We live in the post Roman Empire ie, the feet and toes of Iron and Clay awaiting the event of the Stone cut out without hands striking the image. Scripture clearly says it is in the time of these Kings/ Kingdoms that God will intervene....and might I add and draw a parallel, (the stone the builders rejected...)


I believe I may have responded to this in my post #48 but it will not be copied here. Instead, I will once again paste a later post # 66 below in an attempt to not only continue the conversation but to ask for comments that might offer support for the timing of the little horn and the 10 toes: Of which I don't believe I received even one response (perhaps because it contradicted their interpretations of these two actors being end time events).

So, would you mind taking another look at the post below: I don't believe your comments on the 10 toes or the little horn will agree with the timeline taken from Daniel 2 and 7 (below). Look forward to your thoughts.


Later Post of mine:

If you do not mind, let me try another approach:

Are the 4 beasts in chapter 7 the same as the 4 metal kingdoms in chapter 2?

Is the 4th metal kingdom in chapter 2 Rome (pagan or Imperial Rome) and the unidentifiable 4th beast in chapter 7 also Rome (pagan or Imperial Rome)?

Does verse 7:23 tell us in Gabriel's interpretation sequence the 4th beast will devour the whole earth... meaning Rome would conquer the known world - all nations?

Consequently, the only remaining beast at this time will be this 4th beast of pagan / Imperial Rome (the other "beasts" were essentially folded into the Roman Empire never to have dominion again).

Did Rome, pagan or Imperial Rome, in fact conquer all nations and was the dominant kingdom from 63 BC to 476 AD?

Is verse 7:11 telling us the "beast", the only beast of the original four (whether metal kingdoms or animals in chapter 7) was slain?
7:11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain,

So who is this beast that was slain? Is it pagan / Imperial Rome? (and historically, in 476 AD, that is exactly what took place).

Therefore, it the 4th beast of pagan / Imperial Rome was slain in 476 A, then it is safe to say the 10 horns and the little horn came out of the 4th beast of pagan / Imperial Rome (had to be sometime betwen 63 BC and 476 AD when it was slain). In verses 7:7-8 Daniel tells us this 4th beast had 10 horns coming out of it and then later, another little horn coming out of it - of course this means they both came out of this 4th beast prior to its demise in 476 AD (7:11).

Look forward to your comments...

 

[quietthinker]

Yes here is your response from post #38:


Head of Gold = Babylon
Arms and chest of Silver = Medo-Persia
Belly and thighs of Bronze = Greece
Legs of Iron = Rome
Feet and toes of Iron and Clay = The divided kingdoms of the World many of which emanated from the collapse of the Roman Empire; some strong some weak.
The Stone which destroys all these kingdoms of men = The second coming of Jesus.

Further chapters of Daniel focus in and give more detail/ information of these Kingdoms

We live in the post Roman Empire ie, the feet and toes of Iron and Clay awaiting the event of the Stone cut out without hands striking the image. Scripture clearly says it is in the time of these Kings/ Kingdoms that God will intervene....and might I add and draw a parallel, (the stone the builders rejected...)


I believe I may have responded to this in my post #48 but it will not be copied here. Instead, I will once again paste a later post # 66 below in an attempt to not only continue the conversation but to ask for comments that might offer support for the timing of the little horn and the 10 toes: Of which I don't believe I received even one response (perhaps because it contradicted their interpretations of these two actors being end time events).

So, would you mind taking another look at the post below: I don't believe your comments on the 10 toes or the little horn will agree with the timeline taken from Daniel 2 and 7 (below). Look forward to your thoughts.


Later Post of mine:

If you do not mind, let me try another approach:

Are the 4 beasts in chapter 7 the same as the 4 metal kingdoms in chapter 2?

Is the 4th metal kingdom in chapter 2 Rome (pagan or Imperial Rome) and the unidentifiable 4th beast in chapter 7 also Rome (pagan or Imperial Rome)?

Does verse 7:23 tell us in Gabriel's interpretation sequence the 4th beast will devour the whole earth... meaning Rome would conquer the known world - all nations?

Consequently, the only remaining beast at this time will be this 4th beast of pagan / Imperial Rome (the other "beasts" were essentially folded into the Roman Empire never to have dominion again).

Did Rome, pagan or Imperial Rome, in fact conquer all nations and was the dominant kingdom from 63 BC to 476 AD?

Is verse 7:11 telling us the "beast", the only beast of the original four (whether metal kingdoms or animals in chapter 7) was slain?
7:11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain,

So who is this beast that was slain? Is it pagan / Imperial Rome? (and historically, in 476 AD, that is exactly what took place).

Therefore, it the 4th beast of pagan / Imperial Rome was slain in 476 A, then it is safe to say the 10 horns and the little horn came out of the 4th beast of pagan / Imperial Rome (had to be sometime betwen 63 BC and 476 AD when it was slain). In verses 7:7-8 Daniel tells us this 4th beast had 10 horns coming out of it and then later, another little horn coming out of it - of course this means they both came out of this 4th beast prior to its demise in 476 AD (7:11).

Look forward to your comments...

Daniel 2 is a broad scape view. Daniel 7 zooms in and gives a little more detail. Revelation 13 and onwards keep that zooming in going....all the way to the Earth recreated.

The picture presented in these Prophecies unveil the battle between good and evil, between God and Lucifer, between God's people and Satans people. The legs of Iron and its continuation; the Fourth Beast and its continuation in its horns, particularly the little horn which supplanted three of the ten, the one with eyes like a man and speaking boastfully is parallel imagery though with more detail. The whore in Revelation 17 expands the details even further.
This imagery aligns with a counterfeit religious system/ mind set, which fools the whole world but is eventually overcome by righteousness....thus, going back to Daniel 2, the image (metal man) is struck on the feet of iron and clay by the stone (Jesus return) demolishing the whole system.

 

[CTK]

Daniel 2 is a broad scape view. Daniel 7 zooms in and gives a little more detail. Revelation 13 and onwards keep that zooming in going....all the way to the Earth recreated.

The picture presented in these Prophecies unveil the battle between good and evil, between God and Lucifer, between God's people and Satans people. The legs of Iron and its continuation; the Fourth Beast and its continuation in its horns, particularly the little horn which supplanted three of the ten, the one with eyes like a man and speaking boastfully is parallel imagery though with more detail. The whore in Revelation 17 expands the details even further.
This imagery aligns with a counterfeit religious system/ mind set, which fools the whole world but is eventually overcome by righteousness....thus, going back to Daniel 2, the image (metal man) is truck on the feet of iron and clay by the stone (Jesus return) demolishing the whole system.

Let’s try this again. Look at the verses I provided and also the comments that clearly show when both the little horn and the 10 arrive within the 4th kingdom.

You really cannot miss it! So when does Daniel show when they both come onto the scene? Do they tell us they must come before 476 AD?

You will not find the answers in the SDA interpretations- they do not have a clue — their 10 member group and the three nations plucked up (Visigoths, etc.) is their secular interpretation created to match the 10. They came into existence AFTER 476 AD.

They are correct in interpreting the papacy as the little horn but everything after that … well, severely missed the mark. Nothing to do with Napoleon or 1798, or the 1260 years (which is a gross misrepresentation of 7:25).

However, if anyone were to suggest or dare to mention an alternative interpretation to them they loose their mind and will not even consider them.

They certainly have much of Daniel correct but will not tolerate another interpretation - to their 1260 year interpretation, their 2300 year (really days) interpretation, their 7 times (years) interpretation in Daniel 4, their sparse / incomplete interpretations of Daniel 11 (and what they do offer in Daniel 11 about AE, their Seleucid’s, Ptolemy’s, etc. is silly, and of course their interpretations for the 1290 and 1335 days which they also apply a year for a day…

So, perhaps you might consider the verses and comments I provided and tell me when and who are the 10 — you already have the little horn!

And I don’t have to tell you that your latest response was … well, you know.

 

[quietthinker]

Let’s try this again. Look at the verses I provided and also the comments that clearly show when both the little horn and the 10 arrive within the 4th kingdom.

You really cannot miss it! So when does Daniel show when they both come onto the scene? Do they tell us they must come before 476 AD?

You will not find the answers in the SDA interpretations- they do not have a clue — their 10 member group and the three nations plucked up (Visigoths, etc.) is their secular interpretation created to match the 10. They came into existence AFTER 476 AD.

They are correct in interpreting the papacy as the little horn but everything after that … well, severely missed the mark. Nothing to do with Napoleon or 1798, or the 1260 years (which is a gross misrepresentation of 7:25).

However, if anyone were to suggest or dare to mention an alternative interpretation to them they loose their mind and will not even consider them.

They certainly have much of Daniel correct but will not tolerate another interpretation - to their 1260 year interpretation, their 2300 year (really days) interpretation, their 7 times (years) interpretation in Daniel 4, their sparse / incomplete interpretations of Daniel 11 (and what they do offer in Daniel 11 about AE, their Seleucid’s, Ptolemy’s, etc. is silly, and of course their interpretations for the 1290 and 1335 days which they also apply a year for a day…

So, perhaps you might consider the verses and comments I provided and tell me when and who are the 10 — you already have the little horn!

And I don’t have to tell you that your latest response was … well, you know.

Prophecy is given for the purpose of encouraging God's people. It is so they can track the times they live in, recognising the signs of the times and not fret knowing that human history is nearing its climax. It is not given as a crystal ball.

If you gain encouragement and a closer walk with Jesus in your understanding of these things, I wish you well....noting that I think you are asking that which I have already answered. See post # 113

 

[CTK]

Prophecy is given for the purpose of encouraging God's people. It is so they can track the times they live in, recognising the signs of the times and not fret knowing that human history is nearing its climax. It is not given as a crystal ball.

If you gain encouragement and a closer walk with Jesus in your understanding of these things, I wish you well....noting that I think you are asking that which I have already answered. See post # 113

Well, thank you for your response. We are finished here.

 

[quietthinker]

Well, thank you for your response. We are finished here.

I think we short change ourselves when we align with the interpretations of any denomination. Does that mean that everything any denomination puts out is in error? I don't think so and from your responses I think you recognise that.

So, what's the 'short changing' about? It is the lazy mans way of determining an answer. It means if one can align certain ideas with a certain denomination and one does not warm to that denomination, it is very easy to dismiss everything and everybody associated with it.

The disciples James and John applied this principle to the Samaritans and when the Samaritans didn't dance to the tune they expected, they were ready and willing to call fire down on them. Jesus sorted them out. Luke 9:51-56

The question arises, how are we to determine or how are we to draw an accurate conclusion regarding anything in scripture or a particular ethnicity? ie, what is the litmus test?
In my view it is Jesus. Now that's a big statement because it challenges all sorts conclusions and asks all sorts of questions.
Unless we take up the challenge and ask the difficult questions while seriously seeking for answers, we end up as virgins with no oil in their lamps.

I for one am persuaded that unless we see Jesus as the whole purpose of scripture and scrutinise everything we understand through this lens, we will inevitably end up on a divergent track. One of those tracks is endless circular debate that goes nowhere....except alienating each other from each other.

 

[Davy]

Davy, Satan will indwell the statue image of the beast-king. Making it appear to come to life and speak.

When Jesus returns, He will cause that statue image to burst into flames, turned to ashes. And there will be Satan exposed there on the temple mount.

That's a very, very loose... interpretation of the actual written Scripture. The Ezekiel 28 and even the Revelation 20 Scripture is about SATAN being cast into the future "lake of fire", not some robot image of the beast.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The gospel of Salvation began to be preached to the nations in Luke 24:44-48, 2000 years ago.

Luke 24:
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Right. So, interpret Revelation 12:10 accordingly so that you stop contradicting scripture.

 

[Wish-it]

I agree. Let me propose something to you and get your thoughts, and we might be able to unpack chapter 2. There are indeed 4 and only 4 kingdoms that God has brought forward from the sea.

To ensure we understand this He deliberately identified them as follows:

1) in chapter 2 He identified each of the 4 with their own specific metal type,
2) in chapter 2 He also "double downe," if you will, by assigning each of the 4 kingdoms with their own body parts of a man. Thus, He broke man down into 4 separate sections - where there not only is a very clear break between each of them but He also gives us the understanding that there are no gaps, spaces, et. between any of the 4 kingdoms for us to insert another kingdom - and this must be honored all the way to His second coming. Thus, whether we discuss any later chapter in Daniel or Revelation, these are the 4 and only 4 kingdoms WITHIN His plan of restoration and salvation for His people and His city and mankind.
3) in chapter 7 He also confirms there will be 4 and only 4 kingdoms in this "structure." And to reinforce their separateness, the number of the kingfdoms and that they are consecutive, He describes them as 4 very different and separat wild animals. And of course, one can easily see it no one would attempt to combine any one of these separate animals together......

So, there we have it - the 4 and only 4 kingdoms. If you would like to comment on this before we move to the clay and the toes, I would like to read your

I agree. Let me propose something to you and get your thoughts, and we might be able to unpack chapter 2. There are indeed 4 and only 4 kingdoms that God has brought forward from the sea.

To ensure we understand this He deliberately identified them as follows:

1) in chapter 2 He identified each of the 4 with their own specific metal type,
2) in chapter 2 He also "double downe," if you will, by assigning each of the 4 kingdoms with their own body parts of a man. Thus, He broke man down into 4 separate sections - where there not only is a very clear break between each of them but He also gives us the understanding that there are no gaps, spaces, et. between any of the 4 kingdoms for us to insert another kingdom - and this must be honored all the way to His second coming. Thus, whether we discuss any later chapter in Daniel or Revelation, these are the 4 and only 4 kingdoms WITHIN His plan of restoration and salvation for His people and His city and mankind.
3) in chapter 7 He also confirms there will be 4 and only 4 kingdoms in this "structure." And to reinforce their separateness, the number of the kingfdoms and that they are consecutive, He describes them as 4 very different and separat wild animals. And of course, one can easily see it no one would attempt to combine any one of these separate animals together......

So, there we have it - the 4 and only 4 kingdoms. If you would like to comment on this before we move to the clay and the toes, I would like to read your thought....

Do you consider Clay maybe be a kingdom. I'd presume you don't but that could make 5 kingdoms.

 

[Wish-it]

The above is what I had posted in a previous post.

The fourth segment of the statue, the two legs of iron is the nation of Iraq which was established in 1926 AD

The fifth segment of the statue, the feet is found in these verses from Daniel 2: -

​

32 This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.​

​

41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.​

Notice that in verse 44 that God informs us in the days of these kings, which are the toes of the feet, the God of Heaven will set up an everlasting kingdom which we are also told in Daniel 7:13-14 with be given to the Son of man, i.e. Christ: -

13 "I was watching in the night visions,​

And behold, One like the Son of Man,​

Coming with the clouds of heaven!​

He came to the Ancient of Days,​

And they brought Him near before Him. ​

14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,​

That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.​

His dominion is an everlasting dominion,​

Which shall not pass away,​

And His kingdom the one​

Which shall not be destroyed​

I just wonder if the above prophecies are presently unfolding, during this present time?

I think it is presently unfolding, during this present time. And with that I consider we should be reading the scripture in two ways. One with an eye to the past, and then with an eye to the future. For me that past was for their generation. The future for our generation, so my concentrate is to understand what He is saying to us, TODAY. Too many appear stuck in Alexanders time and are and may miss Gods voice for today. That would be sad, though I have faith in Gods grace, as PhilIians 3.14 says, I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well.

 

[Wish-it]

I think it is presently unfolding, during this present time. And with that I consider we should be reading the scripture in two ways. One with an eye to the past, and then with an eye to the future. For me that past was for their generation. The future for our generation, so my concentrate is to understand what He is saying to us, TODAY. Too many appear stuck in Alexanders time and are and may miss Gods voice for today. That would be sad, though I have faith in Gods grace, as PhilIians 3.14 says, I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well.

The iron is consider will be a reformation of an Islamic confederacy. Therefore will involve a number of nations, eventually supported by the 10 nations of Psalm 83, before becoming seven.Rev 17
There's a good possibility Iraq will be on of the original 4 nations of Dan 7.6, four heads, Dan 8.8 four prominent horns, Dan 11.4, four winds of heaven.
Deut 28.49+ The LORD will bring a nation from afar, from the ends of the earth, to swoop down upon you like an eagle—a nation whose language you will not understand, a ruthless nation with no respect for the old and no pity for the young.

 

[CTK]

The clay within the iron feet represent the Jewish nation held within the Roman Empire. God will use this symbol of His people that will show how He, through the cross, will break free His people (symbolically). If you study verses 2:41-43 you will find how God now speaks of the 4th kingdom quite differently. Now, you will see phrases such as pottery clay (those of His people) that will come to accept Him as their Messiah and He will send them out into the Roman Empire to preach the Good News. While, those of His people who rejected Him would stay within their pre-cross Jewish system and continue for another 2000 years to await their coming Messiah. Verses 2:41-43 are indeed the most difficult verses in early chapters of Daniel ..... but they will certainly not come close to the difficulty of chapter 11.

 

[CTK]

The iron is consider will be a reformation of an Islamic confederacy. Therefore will involve a number of nations, eventually supported by the 10 nations of Psalm 83, before becoming seven.Rev 17
There's a good possibility Iraq will be on of the original 4 nations of Dan 7.6, four heads, Dan 8.8 four prominent horns, Dan 11.4, four winds of heaven.
Deut 28.49+ The LORD will bring a nation from afar, from the ends of the earth, to swoop down upon you like an eagle—a nation whose language you will not understand, a ruthless nation with no respect for the old and no pity for the young.

If you accept that God's plan of restoration and salvation for His people, His city and also mankind is indeed the purpose of the Book of Daniel, than He has only brought forward 4 and only 4 kingdoms out of the sea. And this 4th kingdom will continue until the end of time when He returns and destroys it without human hands. Concsequently, we should not think to add or subtract from His word and that includes the book of Daniel. No China, no EU, no USA, no Russia, no Turkey, no Islam, etc. If the kingdoms were not revealed in Daniel, they will not be found in Revelation. In many ways, one can overlay parts of Daniel right over the book of Revelation - same actors....

 

[Wish-it]

The clay within the iron feet represent the Jewish nation held within the Roman Empire. God will use this symbol of His people that will show how He, through the cross, will break free His people (symbolically). If you study verses 2:41-43 you will find how God now speaks of the 4th kingdom quite differently. Now, you will see phrases such as pottery clay (those of His people) that will come to accept Him as their Messiah and He will send them out into the Roman Empire to preach the Good News. While, those of His people who rejected Him would stay within their pre-cross Jewish system and continue for another 2000 years to await their coming Messiah. Verses 2:41-43 are indeed the most difficult verses in early chapters of Daniel ..... but they will certainly not come close to the difficulty of chapter 11.

Nothing to do with Rome in my opinion

If you accept that God's plan of restoration and salvation for His people, His city and also mankind is indeed the purpose of the Book of Daniel, than He has only brought forward 4 and only 4 kingdoms out of the sea. And this 4th kingdom will continue until the end of time when He returns and destroys it without human hands. Concsequently, we should not think to add or subtract from His word and that includes the book of Daniel. No China, no EU, no USA, no Russia, no Turkey, no Islam, etc. If the kingdoms were not revealed in Daniel, they will not be found in Revelation. In many ways, one can overlay parts of Daniel right over the book of Revelation - same actors....

No China, no EU, no USA, no Russia, no Turkey, no Islam, etc. And no Rome either?

 

[CTK]

Nothing to do with Rome in my opinion

No China, no EU, no USA, no Russia, no Turkey, no Islam, etc. And no Rome either?

Ok ... no problem at all... thanks.

 

[Davidpt]

1) I would also ask that you might look through the entire Bible and determine that this term "saints of the Most High" is found in no other book or chapter than in Daniel 7. This term does not mean people, saints (martyr's) etc., they have a very specific meaning that means the same as the other 3 symbols - 10 toes, horns and kings.

I prefer the KJV over other versions mainly because the KJV reveals some interesting things at times where other versions might obscure these things. Notice per the following how almost identical some of the text in both passages are.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Let's now compare some of the text in both passages like such.

and judgment was given to the saints of the most High
and judgment was given unto them

It seems to me then, the 'them' meant in the latter are meaning the saints of the most High per the former. And according to the latter this would indicate the era of time meant in the former is meaning the thousand years. But then notice that the former follows the fulfilling of Daniel 7:21. Obviously, Daniel 7:21 is not meaning prior to the cross 2000 years ago. The reason I mention this is because Amils place the beginning of the thousand years 2000 years ago. Keeping in mind that the era of time meant in Daniel 7:22 is meaning the thousand years according to Revelation 20. And that the coming meant in Daniel 7:22 is what puts an end to the war with the saints recorded in Daniel 7:21.

Obviously then, Premil has the thousand years in the correct place not Amil.

Getting back to the saints of the most High meant in Daniel 7:22. It seems to me since they are meaning the 'them' meant in Revelation 20:4, it is then a matter of, who are the 'them' meaning in Revelation 20:4? Apparently, they are meaning those that lived again and reign with Christ a thousand years.