Daniel 11 What verse does the end time kick in?

[Marty fox]

Abomination of Desolation = antichrist / AI image that is given power to speak
man of sin = antichrist
falling away = body of the antichrist
Mark of the Beast = antichrist

There are many scriptures that point to the antichrist

Luke chapter 21 shows that the Roman army was the AOD

The man of sin has a different description and personality then the ac in Johns epistles

The falling aways reason is the handy work of the ac

The mark is a symbolic mark of devotion to the beast

 

[Randy Kluth]

I sympathise with the views of scholars and forefathers, but the holy spirit and the word of God are our teachers, we have (or should have) the same Holy Spirit as our forefathers and scholars, but who was Moses, a man of difficult speech, who was David the runt of a litter, who was Gideon, from the smallest clan of the smallest tribe. And they were wrong just like us. Therefore when I read Dan 8, I read that it says when the vision is for, the time of the end, rather than listen to some scholar who has decided for me what it means or how it should be interpreted, even against the grain of Christiandom.

This isn't about judging people by appearances. Rather, this is about respecting people God has gifted to serve the Church with their scholarship. Of course, they aren't always right, but they have done due dilligence, and so should we.

What then is your basis for determining "time of the end" is a reference to the eschatological end? You are just shooting in the dark unless you do some study of the subject.

The context is king, and the context is not the eschatological end--at least not until you get to ch. 12 of Daniel where it mentions the resurrection. Prior to that, it was all about the king of the north and the king of the south. From the context, and also from historical hindsight, they seem to represent the King of Syria and the King of Egypt in the time before and during Antiochus 4.

Following that is the "time of distress" associated with the fall of Jerusalem and the Diaspora of the Jewish People, which began in 70 AD. The resurrection follows the "time of distress."

A lot of Christians who are Futurists also try to make the Abomination of Desolation of Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse about the escahtological end as well. Of course--Futurists want everything in prophecy to be about the future! ;)

But The AoD was about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans. That was the context of both Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse.

The same with Dan 11. The context was about the time leading up to the beginning of the Time of Distress, which began, according to Jesus, in 70 AD. It did not have to do with the eschatological end until the end of the "Time of Distress," which has been the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age. When that comes to an end it will be the eschatological end.

 

[Douggg]

I see you squeaked in that pesky chart again. If your chart claims the final ruler will be a 'king of Israel' that tells us something about the chart. One characteristic of the AC is that he kills a lot of Jews.

Yes, as the beast-king, he will be responsible for the deaths of many great tribulation saints - persons who become Christians during the great tribulation.

Take a look at the chart again. If you will notice, there are two small boxes in Stage 1 and Stage 5, hard to read because of their small size. So I enlarged that portion, so that you can read "king 7 of Revelation 17:10" and "king 8 of Revelation 17:11"



In Revelation 17:10, the king 7 is a yet to come king (of the Roman Empire). The little horn person will be king 7.

Then in Revelation 17:11, the beast is king 8, i.e. the beast-king. As the beast-king, he will be responsible for the deaths of the great tribulation saints, i.e. persons who become Christians during that time. Which will include Jews who currently reject Jesus as the messiah.

 

[Wish-it]

You have to be careful in Daniel, because you will definitely come across English words like "vision" in chapter 8 that may be misinterpreted. Example, here are the 9 specific times the English word "vision" can be found but it could mean one of two very, very different things. One represenst a "short term" vision that is entirely linked to the coming Messiah, while the other is a "long term" vision that covers a period from 457 BC to His return.

Consequently, when these terms are also found in conjunction with the phrase "at the end of time" or similar phrase, one has to apply it to the surronding terms / phrases. Meaning, the phrase "time of the end" has two possible meanings; one - does it speak to the true end of time or does it speak to the end of the 70 weeks of yearsw prophecy when the Messiah arrives and is crucified?


Verses where Chazon is found

Daniel 8:1: A vision appeared to me.

Daniel 8:2: I saw in the vision.

Daniel 8:13: How long will the vision be?

Daniel 8:15: had seen the vision.

Daniel 8:17: The vision refers to the time of the end.

Daniel 8:26: Therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days

in the future.

Verses where Mareh is found

Daniel 8:16: Make this man understand the vision.

Daniel 8:26: The vision of the evenings and mornings.

Daniel 8:27: Astonished at the vision, but no one understood it.

This isn't about judging people by appearances. Rather, this is about respecting people God has gifted to serve the Church with their scholarship. Of course, they aren't always right, but they have done due dilligence, and so should we.

What then is your basis for determining "time of the end" is a reference to the eschatological end? You are just shooting in the dark unless you do some study of the subject.

The context is king, and the context is not the eschatological end--at least not until you get to ch. 12 of Daniel where it mentions the resurrection. Prior to that, it was all about the king of the north and the king of the south. From the context, and also from historical hindsight, they seem to represent the King of Syria and the King of Egypt in the time before and during Antiochus 4.

Following that is the "time of distress" associated with the fall of Jerusalem and the Diaspora of the Jewish People, which began in 70 AD. The resurrection follows the "time of distress."

A lot of Christians who are Futurists also try to make the Abomination of Desolation of Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse about the escahtological end as well. Of course--Futurists want everything in prophecy to be about the future! ;)

But The AoD was about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans. That was the context of both Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse.

The same with Dan 11. The context was about the time leading up to the beginning of the Time of Distress, which began, according to Jesus, in 70 AD. It did not have to do with the eschatological end until the end of the "Time of Distress," which has been the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age. When that comes to an end it will be the eschatological end.

As I read scripture I definitely see so much of "the end" in it. With the AoD of Dan 8.13, Dan 9.27, Dan 11.31, Dan 12.11, Matt 24.15, and 2 Thess 2.3. I see the same, future fulfillment. I struggle to lock so much rich prophecy into a past age and so loose the hope and understanding that He gives me (us).
He speaks to each generation and it seems ours could be the final act, and I treat it as such.

 

[Randy Kluth]

As I read scripture I definitely see so much of "the end" in it. With the AoD of Dan 8.13, Dan 9.27, Dan 11.31, Dan 12.11, Matt 24.15, and 2 Thess 2.3. I see the same, future fulfillment. I struggle to lock so much rich prophecy into a past age and so loose the hope and understanding that He gives me (us).
He speaks to each generation and it seems ours could be the final act, and I treat it as such.

You may have gotten your "future" viewpoint from the prevalence of futurists in your experience. If you had developed your view of these passages from scholars of the past, and even some today, you would likely have seen so much of the "past" in these prophecies. After all, Bible Prophecy covers a range of events--not just our future, or "the end."

What would be the value of Bible Prophecy covering so much of "the end?" How is that going to help previous generations who have had to experience great distress and the seeming loss of their hope? The "end" of time sets our sites on our ultimate goal, but does little to help us witih "now," or in understanding how God has helped His People ini the past.

But by all means, read things the best you can. The Holy Spirit is here to help.

 

[David in NJ]

You may have gotten your "future" viewpoint from the prevalence of futurists in your experience. If you had developed your view of these passages from scholars of the past, and even some today, you would likely have seen so much of the "past" in these prophecies. After all, Bible Prophecy covers a range of events--not just our future, or "the end."

What would be the value of Bible Prophecy covering so much of "the end?" How is that going to help previous generations who have had to experience great distress and the seeming loss of their hope? The "end" of time sets our sites on our ultimate goal, but does little to help us witih "now," or in understanding how God has helped His People ini the past.

But by all means, read things the best you can. The Holy Spirit is here to help.

You must have forgotten these words of the LORD:

Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.”

 

[Davy]

Not sure what you are talking about. The OP never suggested Trump was the AC at all. It asked the question if a successor to him that was a vile person might be.

The OP had suggested that Trump may represent the 'raiser of taxes', which per Dan.11 comes prior to the "vile person". That certainly is not true, because Trump has been lowering taxes that have been on the overtaxed American people.

Good point. However, tariffs do increase costs I think. For example if a country sold the USA a widget, and that widget had a 50% tariff put on it, the result is that it cost more, no?

Trump's tariffs have been fairly applied to those who have been overcharging... Americans for their goods. So our costs have already been way, way, too high by what some nations (like China and Europe) have been doing to us with their products. The costs is now moving to them to balance that out, fairly. So ideas like the tariffs are going to cost Americans more because it raises the cost of the nations to produce and sell is just not reality. When a foreign nation has an 80% tariff on their products to the U.S., and Trump threatens to stop doing business with them if they don't lower 'their'... tariff to a fair level, that does not mean that nation will want to stop doing business with the greatest economy in the world. No, they want American business; it's just that Liberals in the past have allowed those nations to run over the American economy with those nation's high tariffs.

 

[dad]

As the final ruler, the person will no longer be the Antichrist, false Christ King of Israel. He will be the beast-king, dictator of the EU.

You are merely claiming with no basis that the evil king of the end will fist be some politician in secular Israel. Both unrealistic and unsupported. Give it up

 

[dad]

Yes, as the beast-king, he will be responsible for the deaths of many great tribulation saints - persons who become Christians during the great tribulation.

Total fairy tale. You are saying that the AC must first be the leader of Israel. Since you failed to give ANY Scripture for that claim, you should lose it.

In Revelation 17:10, the king 7 is a yet to come king (of the Roman Empire). The little horn person will be king 7.

The empires listed spanned history. Greece Rome etc. When this was written Rome was still here. So the final leader of the end obviously was yet to come!

Then in Revelation 17:11, the beast is king 8, i.e. the beast-king.

The king was not to rule Rome back then.


Revelation 17:10
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 17:11
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The one the is (or was) in John's day was Rome. So the final king comes after Rome. So, rather than call him of the seven, or the seventh, he is the next one after that. That makes him the either. Yet he comes from one of the former kingdom regions.

As the beast-king,

Yes there will be that beast king. Your mistake is insisting he must first be a king of Israel, As for common sense, do you think the current leader of Israel would get elected to head the UN? Ha He will be lucky if he doesn't get arrested for visiting.

 

[dad]

The OP had suggested that Trump may represent the 'raiser of taxes', which per Dan.11 comes prior to the "vile person". That certainly is not true, because Trump has been lowering taxes that have been on the overtaxed American people.

Your point is that tariffs cannot be called taxes. Well they might be called taxes on other countries. They also raise prices in the US for some things. The phrase in the glory of the kingdom (Dan 11) sounds a little bit like 'make America great again' So your point is weak so far

Trump's tariffs have been fairly applied to those who have been overcharging..

Says on side. One side that seems to have a worthless word since he broke existing trade agreements, no? Just like he promised peace and has been insanely warmongering. His word might be OK over lunch time, but by supper he might change his mind four times. Who could make any agreement with someone like that? A man is only as good as his word.

. Americans for their goods. So our costs have already been way, way, too high by what some nations (like China and Europe) have been doing to us with their products.

I would suspect that a whole lot of prices also came way way down importing cheap goods from China and etc. On the backs of slave labour. Maybe it would have been a good idea to take the blame, and respectfully try to improve the situation without slapping 3/4 of the world in the face rudely?

The costs is now moving to them to balance that out, fairly. So ideas like the tariffs are going to cost Americans more because it raises the cost of the nations to produce and sell is just not reality.

You seem to forget that another option is not to play. It is a big world and once people realize that trade with the US is dangerous and risky and expensive, perhaps they will avoid them and deal elsewhere. In the case of Canada, for example, I suspect that they feel insulted. So as soon as it becomes possible to wean away from the harlot down south, don't you think they would do so? It probably could never go back to the way it was now.

When a foreign nation has an 80% tariff on their products to the U.S., and Trump threatens to stop doing business with them if they don't lower 'their'... tariff to a fair level, that does not mean that nation will want to stop doing business with the greatest economy in the world.

Not right away. However who likes bullies? Once people get free of them, the bully is on their own. Would Canada fight for the US as in ww2 today? Ha. But who knows how things will actually turn out? It looks like The US has been working to destroy Canada and divide and conquer. By the way, a lot of people from the US seem to think they are the greatest etc etc. Many do not agree. They are dangerous warmongers that overthrow nations and have shown themselves to be dangerous offenders and criminally insane in some cases.

No, they want American business; it's just that Liberals in the past have allowed those nations to run over the American economy with those nation's high tariffs.

They used to want it maybe. Now they probably reluctantly do what needs to be done for the time being, until they can make other arrangements.

 

[Douggg]

As for common sense, do you think the current leader of Israel would get elected to head the UN?

No, I don't think so. Some see the UN becoming a one-world government, and the ten kings being an expansion of the present five member nation security council. I don't.

 

[Douggg]

You are merely claiming with no basis that the evil king of the end will fist be some politician in secular Israel. Both unrealistic and unsupported. Give it up

You already admitted that the Antichrist will be a false Christ. And Mark 15:32 defines Christ as the King of Israel. "Christ the King of Israel"

The Antichrist will be a false Christ King of Israel.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

From the Judaism 101 site... Mashiach: The Messiah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ) . Now look at each one of their statements, carefully.

"The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days."

"The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5)."

"He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel."

"Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)"

Now look at my chart again. On the chart, when does the Antichrist become the King of Israel ? After Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39. The 7 years then begin. See on the chart ? Those 7 years are in Ezekiel 39:9 and Daniel 9:27, the 70th week.

I think you need to study Ezekiel 39. Noted on the chart, Ezekiel 39:17-20. Compare Ezekiel 39:17-20 with Revelation 19:17-18.

 

[dad]

No, I don't think so. Some see the UN becoming a one-world government, and the ten kings being an expansion of the present five member nation security council. I don't.

I don't know who the kings will be exactly. I do find a claim that a world leader in the probably near future would have to fist be politician from Israel to be suspicious.

 

[dad]

You already admitted that the Antichrist will be a false Christ.

Since the bible describes him as some substitute savior of man and opposed to Jesus, sure.

And Mark 15:32 defines Christ as the King of Israel. "Christ the King of Israel"

King of Kings is how the bible describes Him, despite how Pilate may have ordered it scribbled. Of course that will include Israel. Right now there is someone else that is their king.

The Antichrist will be a false Christ King of Israel.

Based on what Pilate wrote? Sorry, you need prophesy scriptures if you claim the world leader to come has to be Israeli.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Says the mockers. God never said that Jesus was supposed to get half killed, then come off a cross as a king. The verse has no connection to any claim the AC will be Israeli.

From the Judaism 101 site... Mashiach: The Messiah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ) . Now look at each one of their statements, carefully.

"The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days."

"The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5)."

"He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel."

"Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)"

Since Jesus informed us they were of their father Satan, I am not sure why anyone would care? They had one job, and that was to believe in Messiah when when He came.

Now look at my chart again. On the chart, when does the Antichrist become the King of Israel ? After Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39.

Looking at Eze 39 I see this


Ezekiel 39:23
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Therefore thus saith the Lord God ; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God



If your timing is correct, then before the AC even rises to power, the heathen all know about God and how He destroyed the enemies of Israel etc. God will have saved the whole house of Israel, and His spirit will be poured out on them.

Once that happens they will have no more living enemies! So how could you have a world government headed by some Satan spawned possessed lunatic that is killing Jews?? How could this evil regime also then surround Israel for the battle of Armageddon etc?

You have some splainin to do Lucy

 

[Douggg]

Looking at Eze 39 I see this


Ezekiel 39:23
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Therefore thus saith the Lord God ; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God



If your timing is correct, then before the AC even rises to power, the heathen all know about God and how He destroyed the enemies of Israel etc. God will have saved the whole house of Israel, and His spirit will be poured out on them.

Once that happens they will have no more living enemies! So how could you have a world government headed by some Satan spawned possessed lunatic that is killing Jews?? How could this evil regime also then surround Israel for the battle of Armageddon etc?

You have some splainin to do Lucy

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is after Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth. He is recounting that the house of Israel went into captivity because they trespassed against him - by rejecting him as their king and crucifying him.

In Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus will gather the Jews from the nations. Corresponding to Matthew 24:31 when he will send his angels to gather the elect (the Jews) to the land of their fore fathers', Israel

Fulfilling Deuteronomy 30:1-6. Read verses 4-6 in particular.

btw, the Jews (Judaism) call that final gathering - "the final redemption".

 

[Davy]

Your point is that tariffs cannot be called taxes. Well they might be called taxes on other countries. They also raise prices in the US for some things. The phrase in the glory of the kingdom (Dan 11) sounds a little bit like 'make America great again' So your point is weak so far

But tariffs are not taxes; they are trade agreements for doing business. The taxes idea is just the Democratic Party's bent with trying to make Trump look like he is costing the American people more when the reality is just the opposite.

Some nations had tariffs against the U.S. as much as 97% (Cambodia), and you're going to try and claim Trump's 2025 tariff plan is taxing the American people???

Tariffs Chart | Historical and Current Rates by Country and Sector

Explore tariff data through visual charts showing historical trends, current rates by country and sector, and policy developments.

tariffschart.com

 

[dad]

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is after Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

In what what does the next verse (18) jump to another time?

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth.

OK

btw, the Jews (Judaism) call that final gathering - "the final redemption".

They should also realize that it will be for those of them that receive Jesus and believe. He will not return to save Israel because many of them are physical descendants of Abraham.

 

[dad]

But tariffs are not taxes; they are trade agreements for doing business.

One sided arbitrarily imposed financial penalties. Extortion basically, for countries that still depend on trade with them.

The taxes idea is just the Democratic Party's bent with trying to make Trump look like he is costing the American people more when the reality is just the opposite.

I don't care if it costs them or if they get rich quick from the tariffs. I look at it from the perspective of someone from another nation, that the tariffs affect. If I want an orange from the US, it costs more. I did not like a leader of a foreign country saying that another country should dissolve and be no more. Join the warmongering USA. I also would not trust someone that disregards agreements in place they do not like, if that was done? Nor would I take seriously anyone that changes positions a few times a week or day. That seems unstable to me. When we add to that the flagrant support of genocide and theft of land and wars and bombings when he campaigned on peace all over how could anyone have any respect left for the leader?

Some nations had tariffs against the U.S. as much as 97% (Cambodia), and you're going to try and claim Trump's 2025 tariff plan is taxing the American people???

Some nations protect certain industries etc. The US also has had some practices that affect other nations. Cuba for example. They got driven into the dirt by the US, no?

If Canada was, to say, invite Chinese military bases to set up all along the border with the US, break all military ties with the US, and cut all energy from being sent to the US, and water etc, they might see the true nature of the relationship.

 

[Douggg]

In what what does the next verse (18) jump to another time?

I am not sure what your question is. But take a look at Ezekiel 39:17-20, and compare it with Revelation 19:17-18. It is talking about the same event on the day of Jesus's return. There are going to be a lot of dead bodies that day for the birds and wild animals to feast on.

Ezekiel 39:
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

[Douggg]

They should also realize that it will be for those of them that receive Jesus and believe. He will not return to save Israel because many of them are physical descendants of Abraham.

The Jews will turn to believe in Jesus in the middle of the seven years. So they will be welcoming Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and will acknowledge him as the LORD their God.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Right now, the Jews don't believe that Jesus is the LORD their God. But that is all going change in the middle of the seven years.