In Daniel 8, 11, and 12, is A4E meant? Or is a future anti-christ meant?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then make a diagram for the time frames you see as future and literal.

No. How many times do I need to tell you that diagrams are not necessary? Are there any diagrams in the Bible? No. So, don't ever ask me to do that again because I never will.

 

[Douggg]

No. How many times do I need to tell you that diagrams are not necessary? Are there any diagrams in the Bible? No. So, don't ever ask me to do that again because I never will.

So which of the time frames on the diagram to you see as future and literal ?

 

[Deleted member 26788]

Let's start with ch 11. This is mainly in regards to those who insist there a gap between verse 35 and 36.

(KON) = king of the north
(KOS) = king of the south
(VP) = vile person in verse 21


Obviously, the vile person meant in verse 21 has to be one of these two kings. Either the KON or the KOS.

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person(VP), to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he(VP) shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him(VP) he(VP) shall work deceitfully: for he(VP) shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He(VP) shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he(VP) shall do that which his(VP) fathers have not done, nor his(VP) fathers' fathers; he(VP) shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he(VP) shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
25 And he(VP) shall stir up his power and his(VP) courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south(KOS) shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he(KOS) shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him(KOS).

As of verse 25 we undeniably know that the (VP) is not the (KOS)


26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his(KOS) meat shall destroy him(KOS), and his(KOS) army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
27 And both(KON AND KOS) these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.
28 Then shall he(KON) return into his(KON) land with great riches; and his(KON) heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he(KON) shall do exploits, and return to his(KON) own land.
29 At the time appointed he(KON) shall return, and come toward the south(KOS?); but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him(KON) : therefore he(KON) shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he(KON) do; he(KON) shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his(KON) part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king(KON) shall do according to his(KON) will; and he(KON) shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Verse 36 has to be meaning the (KON) since the nearest antecedent is verse 31 and that that is meaning the (KON)


37 Neither shall he(KON) regard the God of his(KON) fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he(KON) shall magnify himself(KON) above all.
38 But in his(KON) estate shall he(KON) honour the God of forces: and a god whom his(KON) fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39 Thus shall he(KON) do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he(KON) shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he(KON) shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him(KON) : and the king of the north shall(KON) come against him(KOS) like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he(KON) shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He(KON) shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his(KON) hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He(KON) shall stretch forth his(KON) hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he(KON) shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his(KON) steps.
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him(KON) : therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45 And he(KON) shall plant the tabernacles of his(KON) palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he(KON) shall come to his(KON) end, and none shall help him(KON).

are you looking for a single person to apply the title anti-christ to ? the anti-christ is not one single person anymore than Christian means one single person . anti means to be against anything Christian as in- Christ and Christian are the same thing.
in the not so dissent future its expected that there will be a movement to remove any and all things ''church'' related . one for its wealth the other devotion given to it. government does not like being told what to do ,the church has been well known for doing that . get rid of the church /religion removes a huge conflict and government just so happens to be big enough to make that happen . at that point God has not reacted .he only cares for only one Christian group. he will react when that one group/Organization is being forced to close and then make allegiance to the state. that just happens to be more than God will tolerate. then Armageddon happens ! your going to wants be on the right side of that war.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So which of the time frames on the diagram to you see as future and literal ?

None of them. To be clear, I'm not saying they all have ended. I just don't see any of them as only relating to the future. I see the 42 months, 1260 days and time, times and half a time as being symbolic representations of the New Testament time period, which I have told you before. Our understanding of these things is very, very far apart.

 

[Douggg]

None of them. To be clear, I'm not saying they all have ended. I just don't see any of them as only relating to the future. I see the 42 months, 1260 days and time, times and half a time as being symbolic representations of the New Testament time period, which I have told you before. Our understanding of these things is very, very far apart.

Symbolic ?

What do mean by "the New Testament time period" ?

So are you seeing the 42 months, 1260 days, the time/times/half time as "symbolic" of the past 2000 years ?

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

So who is the beast in Revelation 13:5, who will get cast into the lake of fire, along with the false prophet, in Revelation 19:20 ?

 

[Douggg]

are you looking for a single person to apply the title anti-christ to ? the anti-christ is not one single person anymore than Christian means one single person . anti means to be against anything Christian as in- Christ and Christian are the same thing.

Hi locust,

Is not Christ a single person ? Christians are followers of Christ.

The Anti-Christ will be a single person. He becomes the Anti-Christ when he is anointed the king of Israel thought-to-be messiah.

The concept of Christ in Jewish belief is indicated in Mark 15:32.

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

The Jews for awhile will mistakenly think that the Antichrist person is their long awaited messiah. Until he commits the transgression of desolation act, at which time the Jews will reject him as continuing as their king of Israel, thought to-be messiah.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

The Anti-Christ will be a single person. He becomes the Anti-Christ when he is anointed the king of Israel thought-to-be messiah.

1 John 2:18​

Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.

 

[Douggg]

1 John 2:18​

Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.

John was indicating that their were persons of his day that were denying the relationship between Jesus the Son of God and God the Father. John was noting in particular that there were Christians that fell away from the faith, who began exhibiting the traits of the coming Antichrist.

1John2:
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Symbolic ?

LOL. You do know what that word means, right? The books of Daniel and Revelation has a lot of symbolism, in case you somehow didn't know.

What do mean by "the New Testament time period" ?

Basically from the first coming of Christ until the second coming of Christ. But, there will be a little season before Christ returns at the end of the 42 months/1260 days that is symbolically represented by 3.5 days in Revelation 11:9.

So are you seeing the 42 months, 1260 days, the time/times/half time as "symbolic" of the past 2000 years ?

Yes.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

So who is the beast in Revelation 13:5, who will get cast into the lake of fire, along with the false prophet, in Revelation 19:20 ?

The beast has existed for a long time. As indicated in Revelation 17:8, the beast "was" even before John wrote the book of Revelation. The beast represents the world in the sense of how unbelievers are of the world and believers are not of this evil world (not worldly). Its heads represent successive historical world empires with the one that "is" at the time John wrote the book representing the Roman empire. It says that all whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (Revelation 13:8) and that lines up with the fact that all unbelievers love the world while believers are told not to love the world, which I equate with worshiping the beast.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

When you don't love the world, then it hates you. The beast makes war with the saints because we do not worship the beast.

John 15:18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

Since you are a futurist and think that the beast and false prophet represent future individuals, you will not understand my perspective, but I honestly could not care less about that.

 

[Douggg]

Basically from the first coming of Christ until the second coming of Christ. But, there will be a little season before Christ returns at the end of the 42 months/1260 days that is symbolically represented by 3.5 days in Revelation 11:9.

Why 42 months and 1260 days ? Is it just coincidence that 1260 days + 42 months = 7 years.

And are the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 following the Gog/Magog event symbolic as well ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why 42 months and 1260 days ? Is it just coincidence that 1260 days + 42 months = 7 years.

Why are you adding 1260 days + 42 months? I don't see any scripture doing that. You base everything on your faulty understanding of the 70th week, so you try to make it fit that. You don't even think of why it refers to 1260 days, 42 months or a time, times and half a time. If it was being literal it would just say 3 and a half years every time, but the fact that it refers to 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and half a time is a clue that they are symbolic time periods.

And are the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 following the Gog/Magog event symbolic as well ?

Most likely, yes. Why you want to interpret passages from highly symbolic books as literally as you can, I'll never know. And why do you base your doctrine on some of the most difficult passages in scripture instead of on clear, straightforward scriptures? That makes no sense, either. Your doctrine should be based on clear, straightforward scriptures which you then use to help understand more difficult scriptures. Read my first 2 posts in this thread so that you can learn a better approach to interpreting scripture and see why scripture clearly teaches Amillennialism and not Premillennialism: Unlike Amillennialism, Premillennialism is based on assumptions and speculation rather than on any clear, straightforward scriptures

 

[Douggg]

If it was being literal it would just say 3 and a half years every time, but the fact that it refers to 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and half a time is a clue that they are symbolic time periods.

The reason it does not say 3 and a half years every time (or any time) is because the time expressions you cited are not "exact" equivalents to each other when it comes down to the actual events.

The 1260 days is the first half of the 7 years.

The 42 months is actually 1256.5 days because it takes into account the 3 1/2 days that the two witnesses' bodies will lay dead in the street of Jerusalem.

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 1256:5 days (referred to as 42 months) = 2520 days (the 7 years)

The time, times, half a time is not exactly 1260 days either. Because it takes into account the unspecified time that the war in the second heaven will take place in Revelation 12:7-9.

1260 days + (war in second heaven time) + time, times, half a time = 2520 days (the 7 years)

 

[Earburner]

David, the little horn person in Daniel 8:9-25 is time of the end, Daniel 8:17.

The little horn person in Daniel 8:25 meets his end when he attempts to mar war on the Prince of princes - Jesus. Read the text of Daniel 8:25.

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Daniel 11:21-32 is Antiochus IV. Antiochus IV met his end in Persia. It was not time of the end.

Daniel 11:36-45 is time of the end, the little horn person of Daniel 8:9-25, who will met his end on the temple mount, when he attempts to make war on the Prince of princes - Jesus.

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Daniel 9:26 the destruction of the city and temple was by the Romans in 70ad. Daniel 9:27, the 7 year 70 week is 2000 years later at the time of the end.

Daniel 11:35 to Daniel 11:36 is the same 2000 years later at the time of the end.

Daniel 12 is time of the end. Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9.

Your approach is quite confusing.
You have swallowed the Scofield false teaching, whereby you have detached and moved the 70th week of Dan. 9:24-27 into the far future. You are not knowing that the 70th week was Jesus' week, whereby he was given the six works of God, that were "determined" for Him to "finish" (vs. 24), as shown in Dan. 9:26-27.
Have you studied Daniel in conjunction with the historical books of 1&2 Maccabees?

 

[Douggg]

Your approach is quite confusing.
You have swallowed the Scofield false teaching, whereby you have detached and moved the 70th week of Dan. 9:24-27 into the far future. You are not knowing that the 70th week was Jesus' week, whereby he was given the six works of God, that were "determined" for Him to "finish" (vs. 24), as shown in Dan. 9:26-27.

I have not read anything Scofield taught.

The 7 years 70th week of Daniel 9:27 coincides with the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 that will follow the Gog/Magog event.

At the end of the Ezekiel 39:9 7 years is Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20 corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18. Read those two text.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking the text having returned to this earth.

 

[Earburner]

I have not read anything Scofield taught.

The 7 years 70th week of Daniel 9:27 coincides with the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 that will follow the Gog/Magog event.

At the end of the Ezekiel 39:9 7 years is Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20 corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18. Read those two text.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking the text having returned to this earth.



View attachment 67721

The only way that you could put your graphical timeline together as you have, is to believe that the 70th week of 7 years was NOT fulfilled by Jesus upon His first coming, but is to be fulfilled in the end days of time.That is the Scofield doctrine.

Again...the 70th week was fulfilled BY JESUS. All we are waiting on now is His sudden and Glorious return of "consummation" "in flaming fire" KJV Dan. 9:27.
2 Thes. 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 is the Gog/Magog event, being simultaneous....
"When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

 

[Douggg]

The only way that you could put your graphical timeline together as you have, is to believe that the 70th week of 7 years was NOT fulfilled by Jesus upon His first coming, but is to be fulfilled in the end days of time.

correct.

That is the Scofield doctrine.

I don't know what all Scofield's doctrine is. But it was not the source of my chart.

Again...the 70th week was fulfilled BY JESUS. All we are waiting on now is His Glorious return of "consummation" "in flaming fire" Dan. 9:27; 2 Thes. 1:7-10

You can say that a million times, but it is not correct. The 7 year 70th week is still unfilled.

 

[Earburner]

correct.


I don't know what all Scofield's doctrine is. But it was not the source of my chart.

You can say that a million times, but it is not correct. The 7 year 70th week is still unfilled.

Unknowingly, you have just agreed with the satanic Scofield doctrine. You are following the dictates of religious church-ianity.

 

[Douggg]

Unknowingly, you have just agreed with the satanic Scofield doctrine. You are following the dictates of religious church-ianity.

Earthburner, you are wrongly painting everything that Scofield taught with a broad brush as being satanic.

Did Scofield believe that Jesus died on the cross for atonement of our sins ? Do you not believe the same ? Does that mean you unknowingly agree with all of Scofield's doctrine ?

So don't accuse me of agreeing with everything Scofield taught. I have stated that I don't depend on Scofield for what I post, as I am not a student of Scofield. If you have issues with Scofield, don't try to drag me into it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The reason it does not say 3 and a half years every time (or any time) is because the time expressions you cited are not "exact" equivalents to each other when it comes down to the actual events.

The 1260 days is the first half of the 7 years.

The 42 months is actually 1256.5 days because it takes into account the 3 1/2 days that the two witnesses' bodies will lay dead in the street of Jerusalem.

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 1256:5 days (referred to as 42 months) = 2520 days (the 7 years)

The time, times, half a time is not exactly 1260 days either. Because it takes into account the unspecified time that the war in the second heaven will take place in Revelation 12:7-9.

1260 days + (war in second heaven time) + time, times, half a time = 2520 days (the 7 years)

I don't buy any of this at all. To me, the time periods are clearly symbolic and they are contained within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture. Agree to disagree. We couldn't be further apart in our understanding of eschatology if we tried.

 

[Douggg]

Agree to disagree. We couldn't be further apart in our understanding of eschatology if we tried.

I agree.