You are a false teacher.
When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.
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Coming in the Clouds, means Coming in his Majesty !
Of the Air means, of the Holy Spirit !
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
3 Resurrections
Active Member
To make a clear demonstration to fallen mankind that our exercise of a free will choice to perform evil is not such a wonderful thing as it has been presented to be. The ability to make a free will choice while in a fallen state can yield more destructive effects than anything we can imagine.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
A matter of your personal opinion only. When I read in Luke 13:26 that those weeping and gnashing their teeth at Christ's return would be saying, "...we have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets...", this is something that only a first-century Israelite could possibly be saying at that point. Those were "they that pierced Him", which the martyr Stephen accused of being the "betrayers and murderers" of Christ. They were the ones to be the eye-witnesses of Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives.
Wrong again. We enjoyed His presence in Church this morning. Are you denying that can happen? Jesus said in Matthew 18:20: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
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pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Christ speaks of the last day, in Matthew 24:29-31, saying, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then (or) tote (or at that time) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Revelation 1:7, speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail (or kopsontai) because of him” go ahead no
- If Christ was only speaking here to Jews in the first century AD, why did He say “they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"? Where is the historic record of this happening to Jewish history?
- When and why did "all the tribes of the earth" or "all kindreds of the earth" mourn in AD70?
- When did the “angels gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” in AD70?
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Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and [g]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [h]moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky [i]receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, [j]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 6 - New King James Version
First Seal: The Conqueror - Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out...
The above describes Christ's second coming as the great day of His wrath.
A day of VENGEANCE against the wicked and those who do not obey the gospel.
Review 2 Thessalonians 1 !!!!!!!!!!!
It is found here also
Romans 2
New King James Version
God’s Righteous Judgment
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your [a]impenitent heart you are [b]treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The revelation of the righteous judgement of God is that Day when Christ returns to judge the world!
Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's a Day of judgment for all the world, a worldwide reckoning, a snare that will come for all who live on the entire face of the world, not just a city called Jerusalem.
We are warned by Christ to WATCH and be aware, to be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come upon the wicked in the judgment of the world.
Luke 21
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [h]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [i]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Matthew 24
The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant
45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food [i]in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying [j]his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
You really try hard to make "this generation " say what you want.
I already told you when Jesus said to his disciples,not a hair on your head will be harmed/ perish, it is something that you also cannot unpack.... Because you are one dimensional.
you don't understand what's being said there
Fast forward to Jesus saying;, "this generation."
Now what could Jesus mean by "this generation"? ....Since that generation did not see all those things fulfilled?.
Instead, you just fling your doctor at it, and say , "it has to mean, this certain one dimensional thing that's in my mind"?
Try real hard to make "this generation" fit into "2000 years ago"
Oh wait...you ALREADY VIEW THE ENTIRE BIBLE AS A HISTORY BOOK.
HAS THE GWT JUDGEMENT ALREADY HAPPENED AS WELL????
DID WE MISS THAT ONE ALSO????
Not even in your wildest efforts can you erase history.
HISTORT TELLS US WITHOUT QUESTION, There has never been an Antichrist that required every human to take a mark.
There has never been an Antichrist that killed millions of Christians for refusing a mark.
There has never been an Antichrist that would not let Christians buy or sell unless they took the mark.
So that means there's never been the entire world of devil worshippers with no believers.
There has never been a time in history where there were flying scorpions, that would Sting mankind, and men would ask to die from the severe pain. There's never been a time in history of hail stones of fire coming up on the world.
According to your "Jesus came and we missed it" doctrine ,Jesus lied when he said; " Tribulation will come in the future, that is so severe, it has never happened before, and never will happen again"
You're entire Deal is so bizarre and busted. It is beyond words.
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3 Resurrections
Active Member
The translation you are using which says "and they also" is inserting those words in italics that aren't even there in the original. There is only the word "kai" which has been mistakenly translated as the word "and" when it really means "every eye shall see Him, NAMELY (kai) they which pierced Him".
This was NOT predicting the Gentile tribes seeing Christ's return - it was the land of Israel's tribes seeing Christ's second coming to the Mount of Olives across the Kidron Valley from where they were besieged inside the city of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Did you really expect all those besieged inhabitants of the tribes of Israel to sit down at that traumatic moment and make a document for your 21st-century perusal? The majority of those eye-witnesses to Christ's second coming return died in the city before the end of AD 70 by starvation the sword, or disease, or they were among the 97,000 taken captive by the Romans at the end and sent into slavery or into Roman arenas to die. That is even presuming those eye-witnesses were literate, or that they would have even been inclined to make a record of just how horribly wrong they had been concerning Christ's divinity. You are also presuming that, even if such a record were made, that the jealous Jewish authorities would not have burned such an incriminating document, due to their utter hatred of Christ. It is also possible that such a document will yet be uncovered in some archaeological dig.
Daniel predicted the exact day in which a resurrection would occur (Daniel 12:1-2 cp 12:11-13). That is the resurrection day when "all the tribes of the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel) were mourning in the city of Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:10-11 did NOT mean tribes of the world's population, because he specifically says that this mourning would be done by the tribes IN JERUSALEM when they saw the one which they had pierced. "In that day shall there be a great mourning IN JERUSALEM..." (Zech. 12:11).
As for the reasons for the Israelite tribes mourning, look at the very specific families and tribes of Israel which Zechariah mentions in particular, as found in Zechariah 12:11-13: namely...
• "the family of the house of David" - mourning because there would be no more ethnic kingly line ruling in Israel anymore. The scepter of kingship was not to depart from Judah nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh (Jesus Christ) came, and to Him would the gathering of the people be (in a bodily resurrection of the righteous dead). This shows that Shiloh (Jesus Christ) already came at this point - the true "King of kings and Lord of lords".
• "the family of the house of Levi" - mourning because a priesthood system to rule over Israel from a physical temple was no longer in existence anymore. Christ Jesus was being manifested as the only Great High Priest needed.
• "the family of the house of Nathan" - mourning because it was finally obvious that there was no longer a succession of Israelite prophets. The law and the prophets were until John. Since then, the kingdom of heaven was preached, and there was no longer a need for Israelite prophets.
• "the family of Shimei" - This one is a bit more tricky. Shimei was a son of Gershon, and the task of the Gershonites in the wilderness wanderings was to supervise the carrying and setting up of all the tabernacle tent hangings and coverings which composed the "walls" of the tabernacle (Numbers 3:18 cp 4:22-26). After AD 70, there would no longer be any walls of a temple existing. Those of the family of Shimei would be mourning because it would be finally sinking in that they had lost their ancient charge, once they saw the temple walls being torn down to the last stone.
• "ALL the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart." - This separation between wives and their husbands shows the ancient laws against touching the unclean by reason of bloodshed, death, or disease. The entire city of Jerusalem was set apart for removal for sin and uncleanness (Zech. 13:1). At that point in AD 70, the entire city was awash in bloodshed, dead bodies, and disease, so that every family member was separated from each other because of all this defilement going on in the city at the time.
All the elect righteous dead and those elect who were already bodily resurrected (like Lazarus, the Matt. 27:52-53 saints, etc.) were gathered together and taken to heaven with the bodily returning Christ on AD 70's Pentecost day (the 1,335th day Daniel predicted). They were all gathered to the site of the eastern gate of Jerusalem, opposite to where Christ bodily returned to the Mount of Olives. This was done when there was still an eastern gate to the temple in existence - the only reason why the people in the post-exilic return were to worship while facing this one eastern gate of the temple complex in the Sabbaths and the new moons (Ezekiel 46:1-3). Once that "gathering of the people" took place back in AD 70, there was no longer a need for that eastern gate of the inner court of the temple to exist anymore.
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3 Resurrections
Active Member
This is incorrect. Scripture never tells us that an Antichrist would require every human to take a mark. It was the "Beast from the land" with its two-horned power structure in Revelation 13 which required the mark giving homage to the ancient Sea Beast (the Sea Beast which was given the throne of Satan in the city of Pergamos back in 133 BC). The "mark" is ancient history by now, since its use was dropped back in AD 66 when the Jewish / Roman war started.
The one and only Antichrist "Man of Lawlessness" and his restrainer were already in existence during the days when Paul was writing to the Thessalonians. Paul had already told them who the Antichrist and his restrainer were. You don't have to guess, because both individuals already died back in AD 66.
Again, you are misquoting the Scripture account. It was not scorpions, but something nicknamed "locusts" who had tails like scorpions. All that language in Revelation 9 was descriptive of the Roman soldiers serving the evil Judean governor Gessius Florus who were tormenting Israel's inhabitants for a five-month period in the summer of AD 66 to goad them into a rebellion against Rome. Florus succeeded in his five-month attempt, which led to the unequalled "days of vengeance" which came upon Judea and Jerusalem, which would never be duplicated in history following that time.
Your obsession with the coming of Titus and AD70 is nauseating. You have a miserable focus. How sad! Neither the coming of Titus nor AD70 were the focus of the OT Law or the prophets. Neither are they the focus of Jesus and the NT writers. This is the obsession of the heretical Full Preterists. You twist text after text, word after word, and truth after truth, to support your fixation.
These all rather pount to Christ, the cross, the resurrection, the reign of Christ, and His one final future glorious climactic return.
You have no credibility here with me and others spreading your heresy. You should be banned.
It is a waste of time trying to reason with a brainwashed religion heretic. But those who have eyes to see will see the truth.
Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes [Gr. phulē] of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds [Gr. phulē] of the earth shall wail because of him.”
The Greek word phulē here means race, clan, kindred, or tribe. When it is prefixed by “all tribes” or “all the tribes” it means all races, it means everyone. Hello!
John is telling us that Jew and Gentile alike will see Jesus when He appears in the future. The wording and context is crystal clear for those who are unindoctrinated and have to support false teaching to push (as you do). He teaches that "every eye shall see him." Hello! There you go! There it is! There is the context to what he is teaching. He then reinforces that all-embracing statement by saying "they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him.”
This couldn't be clearer. The 2nd point reinforces the 2nd point.
Synonymous parallelism
Repetition is found throughout the Scripture mainly in the Old Testament. It can take in a variety of forms. The repeating of things twice is very pervasive in the Bible, especially in the Hebrew Scriptures. The inspired text often presents a truth and then immediately re-presents it, only in a slightly different way, with different words, and from a marginally different angle. This is done to reinforce the detail being expounded. It is done to expand meaning. It is presented to bring clarity. This is called “synonymous parallelism.” It is a grammatical form that involves the repetition of a thought.
- "every eye shall see him"
- "they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him."
Jew and Gentile
Scripture repeatedly connects (yet distinguishes between) Jews and Gentiles (Greeks) when talking about all mankind. Objective Bible students know that this is intended to mean "everyone" (Rom 1:16, 2:9-10, 10:12, Gal 3:28, 5:6, 6:15, Eph 2:11, 14 and Col 3:11).
Both Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 1:7 are telling us that unsaved mankind (in total - Jew and Gentile alike) are going to wail when they miss the boat at His return. This is so easy to grasp for the enlightened.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. You are so deceived. No one saw Christ return in 70 AD. That is utter nonsense that can't be taken seriously. He will return in the future and everyone in the world will see Him and will be judged by Him at that point (Matthew 25:31-46).
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
3 Resurrections
Active Member
I would say it is the "miserable focus" of those who mistakenly and stubbornly insist on placing all these Revelation disasters into our future when all the Scriptures clearly tell us that those disasters were "at hand" for the first-century generation to experience. Anything "at hand" is NOT extended some 2,000 years and counting for their fulfillment. We today do not anticipate those "days of vengeance", which were prophesied all the way back in Deuteronomy 32's "Song of Moses" for the "latter end" of disobedient Israel as a people to experience. Your viewpoint makes the heart of God's people today sad, whom He has not made sad. Christ was more optimistic, by promising the continued growth of His kingdom in this world, like leaven and the mustard seed and Daniel's stone kingdom which has already struck that image and turned it to dust on the wind.
I have backed all my statements with a combination of Scripture references which do not contradict each other. And I have told you that my entire paradigm centers around Christ's "FIRST resurrection" in AD 33. This includes my expectant hope for His glorious bodily return in our future to purify this planet of all remaining human evil from then onward. If what I write is so disturbing for you, then simply don't respond to any of my comments - it's that simple.
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coming in the clouds means not visible seen . we will however know he is present because of the signs ,earth quakes, wars and reports of war.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Revelation 1:7 does not exist on its own; it is quoting Zechariah 12:10, whose context specifically limits that mourning of the tribes to those "IN JERUSALEM" - not the entire world.
The word "also" is NOT THERE - it is inserted in italics, which means the translators are simply adding it by their own choice. You aren't considering this logically. For the sake of argument, let's say that this verse really should be translated as meaning "every eye of everybody in the world shall see Him, and also they who pierced Him". Don't you understand the redundancy of this statement? If everybody in the entire world is already going to simultaneously see Christ's return to the Mount of Olives, then why bother adding those who pierced him, since they are already included in the number of "everybody in the world"? This doesn't even make sense - not even with the "parallelism" theme you are discussing.
In Scripture, the Greek words "tes ges" for "the earth" invariably mean that the author was speaking of "the land of Israel", as opposed to the Gentile nations. The "tribes of the earth" (tes ges) who would be mourning is speaking of the tribes in the land of Israel - not the globe at large. This is especially noticeable in Luke 21:23's prediction of "great distress in the land (tes ges), and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" - meaning those in Judea who were to flee Judea for the mountains to avoid those first-century disasters.
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