In Daniel 8, 11, and 12, is A4E meant? Or is a future anti-christ meant?

[Earburner]

It seems pretty cut and dry to me that the 70 weeks of Daniel mark the end of God’s dealings with Israel and earthly Jerusalem. This 70 weeks point directly to the fulfillment of Amos 8, where God declares the final judgment upon Israel.

Amos 8:2 says: And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

Jesus confirms this shift in Matthew 21:43, saying: “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

This statement from Jesus makes clear that the kingdom would no longer be identified with ethnic Israel but would be given to those—Jew or Gentile—who produce its fruit in faith and obedience.

Absolutely correct.

 

[Douggg]

Two questions to you:
1. Who finished the six works of God in verse 24?
2. Who was cut off in the midst of the 70th week in verse 27?

1. The six things listed in verse 24 are not finished yet.
2. No-one was cutoff in the midst of the 70th week. Jesus was cutoff 4 days after his arrival in Jerusalem as the messiah.

Little do you realize that the first 3.5 years was the joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus confirming the New covenant with his disciples. John for 6 mos., and then Jesus for 3.0 years.

After Jesus' Ascension into Heaven, by His Holy Spirit, Jesus continued confirming the New Covenant to the early church for the remaining 3.5 years thus totalling 7.0 years, which is the fulfillment of the 70th week.

A discussion for a different topic:
Would you dare to believe that John the Baptist and Jesus are the Two Witnesses, as the Gospels and Revelation reveals it?

The new covenant is not mentioned in Daniel 9. The covenant that is in Daniel 9 is the Mt. Sinai covenant. What covenant do you that Daniel was praying about that his people transgressed ?

What covenant was Moses talking about in Deuteronomy 31:9-31 about being confirmed on a 7 year cycle ?

 

[Earburner]

Scofield made a chart like this ?

View attachment 67906

Any and all charts like yours are false, simply because you adhere to the Scofield doctrine of the 70th week being cut off away from the 69 weeks and then reattached in time to be fulfilled 2000+ years later.

 

[Douggg]

Any and all charts like yours are false, simply because you adhere to the Scofield doctrine of the 70th week being cut off away from the 69 weeks and then reattached in time to be fulfilled 2000+ years later.

You have not heard me basing any thing I post referencing Scofield - ever. So stop with the false accusations.

 

[Earburner]

1. The six things listed in verse 24 are not finished yet.
2. No-one was cutoff in the midst of the 70th week. Jesus was cutoff 4 days after his arrival in Jerusalem as the messiah.

View attachment 67912



The new covenant is not mentioned in Daniel 9. The covenant that is in Daniel 9 is the Mt. Sinai covenant. What covenant do you that Daniel was praying about that his people transgressed ?

What covenant was Moses talking about in Deuteronomy 31:9-31 about being confirmed on a 7 year cycle ?

What? Now you are all over the biblical map, picking and choosing anything that will work for you.
I am sensing that because of your current belief system, you are not ignorantly unaware, but rather you are being wilfully ignorant, just to keep your Premilennial view for the sake of your Religion or prior Religious commitments.

 

[Earburner]

You have not heard me basing any thing I post referencing Scofield - ever. So stop with the false accusations.

You are being religiously persuaded to follow after the doctrines of men. Scofield is a big piece of the pie called church-ianity, aka the visible religions and denominations about Christ.

 

[Douggg]

You are being religiously persuaded to follow after the doctrines of men. Scofield is a big piece of the pie called church-ianity, aka the visible religions and denominations about Christ.

I am non-denominational. I belong to no denomination. churchianity is a term that applies to excessive focus on certain denominational teachings. So don't be making false accusations of me referencing Scofield in what I post, nor any of my charts.

 

[covenantee]

Daniel 9:24 is saying that the 70 weeks (of years) are determined to apply to Daniel's people and the holy city of Jerusalem.

The 70th week, still unfulfilled, is determined to apply to Daniel's people and the holy city of Jerusalem. Has Zechariah 14 taken place yet ?

What does "determined" mean in the OT Hebrew for Daniel 9:24?

 

[Douggg]

What does "determined" mean in the OT Hebrew for Daniel 9:24?

I don't know. 'determined"in Daniel 9:24 simply means God has "decided" 70 weeks of years on Daniel's people, the Jews, and the holy city, Jerusalem for the accomplishment of the things listed in Daniel 9:24.

 

[covenantee]

I don't know. 'determined"in Daniel 9:24 simply means God has "decided" 70 weeks of years on Daniel's people, the Jews, and the holy city, Jerusalem for the accomplishment of the things listed in Daniel 9:24.

Yes, it certainly includes "decided". But even more:

2852 [e]
neḥ·taḵ
נֶחְתַּ֥ךְ
are determined
V‑Nifal‑Perf‑3ms

"1. (properly) to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree"

It recognizes that there is a single "cutoff", which does not allow for a cutoff after 69 weeks that orphans the 70th week, requiring another future cutoff.

There is only one cutoff, and it includes the 70th week.

Thus, "Seventy weeks are cut off..." Daniel 9:24

 

[TribulationSigns]

What does "determined" mean in the OT Hebrew for Daniel 9:24?

First, we read in Daniel 9:24.

Dan 9:24
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

We have seen in Daniel 9:24 that "all" these things were determined to happen to Israel. The real question is with WHAT ISRAEL? It was determined by God that the transgression would be withheld or restrained, and that sin would be brought to an end or sealed up, that reconciliation for iniquity would be made to bring in everlasting righteousness, that there would be the sealing up of the vision and the prophet in Israel, and finally, that there would be the anointing of the Hallowed Holy. All this we read was determined to happen in these 70 weeks. This has to do with God's Covenant Israel making up of His chosen people from the Old Testament and the New Testament that the holy city represents!

Dan 9:26
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

God did not talk about "evil-prince" here like Titus, ROmans, Antiochus Ephehsis. etc. No, the prince is still Jesus Christ per context and HIS people at the time of His cut off were the people of Israel, the Jews. They are His people who have rejected their Messiah the Prince and put Him to death upon the Cross. The Messiah the Prince is the stone that the builders (Jews) rejected, is become head of the corner, is it not? They indeed destroyed the Sanctuary. Bec ause when they destory CHrist, they brought their city to desoaltion. Didn't Jesus Christ said in:

Mat 23:37-38
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The City Jersualem is destroyed, left desolate, "BECAUSE" they rejected Messiah the PRince who came to deliver them. And not only did they destroy the prophets and servants that God had sent to them, but they would destroy the son, their Messiah that God sent also. God demonstrates this clearly in chapters such as Matthew 21, of the parable of the householder and the vineyard!

Christ did give the Jews a SIGN that He has the authority to cast people out of the Temple. Christ said to THEM, (the Jews) to destroy the Temple, and Christ would raise it up in 3 days. It happened!

Acts 2:36
(36) "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom Ye have Crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Again we see that as it was prophesied, so it came to pass. The people of the Prince that was to come, destroyed the Temple. This is what Daniel 9:26 is talking about of the people of the coming Prince, destroying the City and Sanctuary. They had made the City spiritually adulterous, but God would rebuild that city, He would restore the ruins as He purges away the sin and makes it a City of Righteousness.


Isaiah 1:21
(21) How is the faithful city become a Harlot! It was full of judgement; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Isaiah 1:25
(25)And I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away ALL THY TIN:

Isaiah 1:26
(26) And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counselors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, the City of Righteousness, The Faithful City.

This is the city that the people destroyed through spiritual harlotry. Yet it is also the city that God, in His mercy, rebuilds—not with bricks and stones, but with righteousness. This is not about a patch of land in the Middle East—after all, a piece of land cannot commit harlotry. It is about a people as the stones falling, who turned away from God, and whom Christ will restore. He rebuilds the true city of God, the one whose builder and maker is not man, but God Himself—the city of everlasting righteousness brought by the Prince.

The desolation was determined: the Old Testament congregation fell. But in three days, God returned with compassion to rebuild the tabernacle that had fallen—this points to the resurrection and the rise of the New Testament congregation. This is why the Lord confirmed a covenant with His people, the New Testament Church, which remains in effect until the Second Coming of Christ.

And yet, despite the clear fall of the Old Testament congregation and the spiritual rebuilding that began at the resurrection of Christ, some still claim that the destruction of a physical temple in 70 AD is required to fulfill prophecy. But that view misses the point entirely—the new building, the spiritual temple, had already begun long before 70 AD.

Take note: the word "determined" appears twice—once in verse 26 and again in verse 27. The first refers to the fall of the Old Testament congregation, and the second points to the fall of the New Testament congregation prior to the consummation. Both are decreed by God, and both unfold according to His sovereign plan.

 

[covenantee]

First, we read in Daniel 9:24.

Dan 9:24
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

We have seen in Daniel 9:24 that "all" these things were determined to happen to Israel. The real question is with WHAT ISRAEL? It was determined by God that the transgression would be withheld or restrained, and that sin would be brought to an end or sealed up, that reconciliation for iniquity would be made to bring in everlasting righteousness, that there would be the sealing up of the vision and the prophet in Israel, and finally, that there would be the anointing of the Hallowed Holy. All this we read was determined to happen in these 70 weeks. This has to do with God's Covenant Israel making up of His chosen people from the Old Testament and the New Testament that the holy city represents!

Dan 9:26
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

God did not talk about "evil-prince" here like Titus, ROmans, Antiochus Ephehsis. etc. No, the prince is still Jesus Christ per context and HIS people at the time of His cut off were the people of Israel, the Jews. They are His people who have rejected their Messiah the Prince and put Him to death upon the Cross. The Messiah the Prince is the stone that the builders (Jews) rejected, is become head of the corner, is it not? They indeed destroyed the Sanctuary. Bec ause when they destory CHrist, they brought their city to desoaltion. Didn't Jesus Christ said in:

Mat 23:37-38
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The City Jersualem is destroyed, left desolate, "BECAUSE" they rejected Messiah the PRince who came to deliver them. And not only did they destroy the prophets and servants that God had sent to them, but they would destroy the son, their Messiah that God sent also. God demonstrates this clearly in chapters such as Matthew 21, of the parable of the householder and the vineyard!

Christ did give the Jews a SIGN that He has the authority to cast people out of the Temple. Christ said to THEM, (the Jews) to destroy the Temple, and Christ would raise it up in 3 days. It happened!

Acts 2:36
(36) "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom Ye have Crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Again we see that as it was prophesied, so it came to pass. The people of the Prince that was to come, destroyed the Temple. This is what Daniel 9:26 is talking about of the people of the coming Prince, destroying the City and Sanctuary. They had made the City spiritually adulterous, but God would rebuild that city, He would restore the ruins as He purges away the sin and makes it a City of Righteousness.


Isaiah 1:21
(21) How is the faithful city become a Harlot! It was full of judgement; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Isaiah 1:25
(25)And I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away ALL THY TIN:

Isaiah 1:26
(26) And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counselors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, the City of Righteousness, The Faithful City.

This is the city that the people destroyed through spiritual harlotry. Yet it is also the city that God, in His mercy, rebuilds—not with bricks and stones, but with righteousness. This is not about a patch of land in the Middle East—after all, a piece of land cannot commit harlotry. It is about a people as the stones falling, who turned away from God, and whom Christ will restore. He rebuilds the true city of God, the one whose builder and maker is not man, but God Himself—the city of everlasting righteousness brought by the Prince.

The desolation was determined: the Old Testament congregation fell. But in three days, God returned with compassion to rebuild the tabernacle that had fallen—this points to the resurrection and the rise of the New Testament congregation. This is why the Lord confirmed a covenant with His people, the New Testament Church, which remains in effect until the Second Coming of Christ.

And yet, despite the clear fall of the Old Testament congregation and the spiritual rebuilding that began at the resurrection of Christ, some still claim that the destruction of a physical temple in 70 AD is required to fulfill prophecy. But that view misses the point entirely—the new building, the spiritual temple, had already begun long before 70 AD.

Take note: the word "determined" appears twice—once in verse 26 and again in verse 27. The first refers to the fall of the Old Testament congregation, and the second points to the fall of the New Testament congregation prior to the consummation. Both are decreed by God, and both unfold according to His sovereign plan.

Mostly agree. However, Daniel 9:27b continues the description in Daniel 9:26b, referring to the complete destruction (consummation) which befell Jerusalem in 70 AD via the abomination of desolation, the Roman armies (Luke 21:20) under the command and control of Messiah the Prince, the Divine Desolator (Daniel 9:27b; Matthew 23:38).

 

[TribulationSigns]

Mostly agree. However, Daniel 9:27b continues to refer to the complete destruction (consummation) which befell Jerusalem in 70 AD via the abomination of desolation, the Roman armies (Luke 21:20) under the command and control of Messiah the Prince, the Divine Desolator.

That interpretation doesn't align with the biblical structure of Daniel 9:27. The 'consummation' mentioned is not referring to the destruction of the physical temple in 70 AD, nor is it pointing to the Roman armies as the 'abomination of desolation.' That view disconnects the verse from the broader prophetic context of Daniel and the New Testament.

The 'consummation' is a future event, which the convenent for one week is finished, -- clearly pointing to the Second Coming of Christ, when final judgment and the full end of sin will be brought about (cf. Daniel 9:24). In verse 27, the covenant confirmed is the New Covenant established by Christ, and the reference to 'in the midst of the week' marks the end of salvation after He have secured all of His Elect (Revelation 7:1-4), the the abomiantion of desolation will stand in the unfaithful, external, corporate NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION because of the rise of false prophets (the army of Gog and Magog) and christs per Matthew 24 where Christ warned to Christians that when they "see" the AoD stand where it ought not, flee. This has nothing to do with Roman armies, Jews, and their physical temple in 70AD.

Again, after the completion of the New Testament Church—the true temple being built with living stones (1 Peter 2:5)—there will come a time of great apostasy within the external visible Church, similar to the unfaithfulness of national Israel at the time of Christ’s first coming. This parallels Paul's warning in 2 Thessalonians 2 about a great falling away and the rise of the man of sin in the temple of God.

Therefore, Daniel 9:26–27 is not fulfilled in 70 AD which was not the prophetic 'end' or 'consummation' spoken of here.

 

[covenantee]

That interpretation doesn't align with the biblical structure of Daniel 9:27. The 'consummation' mentioned is not referring to the destruction of the physical temple in 70 AD, nor is it pointing to the Roman armies as the 'abomination of desolation.' That view disconnects the verse from the broader prophetic context of Daniel and the New Testament.

The 'consummation' is a future event, which the convenent for one week is finished, -- clearly pointing to the Second Coming of Christ, when final judgment and the full end of sin will be brought about (cf. Daniel 9:24). In verse 27, the covenant confirmed is the New Covenant established by Christ, and the reference to 'in the midst of the week' marks the end of salvation after He have secured all of His Elect (Revelation 7:1-4), the the abomiantion of desolation will stand in the unfaithful, external, corporate NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION because of the rise of false prophets (the army of Gog and Magog) and christs per Matthew 24 where Christ warned to Christians that when they "see" the AoD stand where it ought not, flee. This has nothing to do with Roman armies, Jews, and their physical temple in 70AD.

Again, after the completion of the New Testament Church—the true temple being built with living stones (1 Peter 2:5)—there will come a time of great apostasy within the external visible Church, similar to the unfaithfulness of national Israel at the time of Christ’s first coming. This parallels Paul's warning in 2 Thessalonians 2 about a great falling away and the rise of the man of sin in the temple of God.

Therefore, Daniel 9:26–27 is not fulfilled in 70 AD which was not the prophetic 'end' or 'consummation' spoken of here.

The consummation of Jerusalem occurred in 70 AD. There is no dispensationalized futurization applicable.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The consummation of Jerusalem occurred in 70 AD.

False. Jerusalem was left desolate when they rejected Christ, not in 70AD.

Mat 23:37-38
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

That desolation was already determined in verse 26. Not verse 27.

It's the prophecy of a spiritual city being destroyed, not a literal/physical one. Physical Jerusalem is still standing today. But the Jerusalem Christ was talking about being left desolate, isn't, Matthew 22:2-14.

The Bible is its own interpreter, its own onomasticon, its own dictionary, and its own reference book. It tells us when something is fulfilled, it tells us how it is fulfilled, and it tells us when it is fulfilled. Those who would believe it is determined by God, not I.

Romans 3:3-4

• "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
• God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

I believe God and not man. When God says the First Resurrection is in Him, I believe it. When God says what He has joined together, let not man pull it apart, I believe that. And when God says Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up, I believe that. Because it was the pinnacle of human history interpreted by the true Historian, Christ. Not Josephus. That was the fulfillment of the fall of the Holy Temple in Israel, and the restoration of it in Israel in three days. Not a pile of bricks that were somewhat knocked down in 70 AD. Selah!

 

[Earburner]

Take note: the word "determined" appears twice—once in verse 26 and again in verse 27. The first refers to the fall of the Old Testament congregation, and the second points to the fall of the New Testament congregation prior to the consummation. Both are decreed by God, and both unfold according to His sovereign plan.

I would ask that you reconsider your point of view of what the word "determined" in 27 is referencing. It is referencing the six works of God (vs. 24), that were finished by Christ and therefore the results of His work are freely GIVEN to all who repent towards God through faith in Christ.

Today, we know of it as Pentecost, the "pouring out" of the Holy Spirit of God upon all who are "desolate" [void of God]. Dan. 9:24, 27; Acts 2:17, 10:45.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, it certainly includes "decided". But even more:

2852 [e]
neḥ·taḵ
נֶחְתַּ֥ךְ
are determined
V‑Nifal‑Perf‑3ms

"1. (properly) to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree"

It recognizes that there is a single "cutoff", which does not allow for a cutoff after 69 weeks that orphans the 70th week, requiring another future cutoff.

There is only one cutoff, and it includes the 70th week.

Thus, "Seventy weeks are cut off..." Daniel 9:24

The text of Daniel 9:26 is saying....

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

"cut off" in that context is referring to the death of the Messiah.

The gap between Jesus's death on the cross and the beginning of the 70th week is the time of the gentiles.

 

[IndianaRob]

Rob, has Zechariah 14 been fulfilled yet ?

Yes, beyond the shadow of a doubt, all of Zechariah has been fulfilled. Here are a few key reasons why:

---

1. God Broke His Covenant with Israel
Zechariah 11:10

"And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people."

This shows that God ended His covenant with national Israel. That happened when they rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

---

2. The 30 Pieces of Silver
Zechariah 11:12

"So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver."

This clearly points to Judas being paid to betray Jesus.

---

3. They Looked on the One They Pierced
Zechariah 12:10

"They shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him…"

This happened when Jesus was on the cross.

---

4. The Spirit of Grace Was Poured Out
The old covenant ended, and grace through Christ began.

 

[Earburner]

The consummation of Jerusalem occurred in 70 AD. There is no dispensationalized futurization applicable.

If all would examine KJV Dan. 9:27, they will see the time zone that Jesus is extending through, and then finally to.
[27] And he [Jesus] shall confirm the [New] covenant with many for one week [3.5+3.5= 7yrs.]: and in the midst of the week [first 3.5 yrs.] he [Jesus] shall cause [by his own sacrifice] the [temple] sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations [continuation of Jewish animal sacrifices] he [Jesus] shall make it desolate, even until [upto] the consummation,
and/[but] that [which was] determined [in verse 24] shall be poured upon the desolate [those who are void of the Holy Spirit of God (Acts 2:17, 10:45), EVEN UNTIL [upto] the consummation].
 The consummation, destruction, is the complete end of all things.
> See also Heb.[29] For our God is a consuming fire. 2 Thes. 1:7-10; 2 Peter 3.

Consummation:
Strong's Number - H3617
Hebrew: כּלה
Transliteration: kâlâh
Pronunciation: kaw-law'
Definition: From H3615; a completion; adverbially completely; also destruction: - {altogether} ({be} utterly) consume ({-d}) consummation ({-ption}) was {determined} ({full} utter) {end} riddance.
KJV Usage: ...end (11x), altogether (3x), consume (3x), consumption (2x), consummation (1x), determined (1x), riddance (1x).
Occurs: 22
In verses: 20

 

[Douggg]

Yes, beyond the shadow of a doubt, all of Zechariah has been fulfilled. Here are a few key reasons why:

Zechariah 14:
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Rob, the mount of Olives has not been split in half yet. So Zechariah 14 is still future.