Dealing with : The Body of Sin

[1stCenturyLady]

When Paul says......How can we who are dead to sin, live any longer in it.......He is explaining that the old man of sin is dead.
So, to live there, free from sin consciousness, is to have "worked our your salvation".
And how to do this.... is against our nature, against our flesh, and against our logic.

The Key is to understand that Christianity is All Spiritual, and so, when the Believer is trying to DO That...then they find this..

= "that which i would do i can't and that which i hate, i do".

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

I do not understand why you are using this verse regarding when we were under the Law, and not in the Spirit.

I had hoped we were getting on the same page. But when born again the laws written on our clean heart is NOT against our nature; it IS our nature.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Amen sister. It is not as common on here as I had hoped.

Yes, I know what you mean. I've been on Christian forums for over 15 years.

The most argued verses are Romans 7:14-25 and 1 John 1:8. How do you interpret them. That will tell you and I the most about each other.

 

[PS95]

Let's see
Ro 7- simply put it is that war within us spirit vs the flesh. When we keep our eyes on the Lord, He gives us victory through His Spirit He has given us.
1 Jo 1:8- We still can sin- even though we may think otherwise sometimes, the HS shows me that even in my thoughts I sin, even if but for a moment.- arrogance or pride etc,, -It's ugly, and now we agree with God at it's ugliness and cast it aside by the Spirit. I find it humbling and yet I am grateful to see my sins at the same time.
It's all God in us!
I think of it similar to foot washings. We were already made clean, but still need to cleanse our feet. When we confess our sins- we are forgiven and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. 1jo 1:9?

Feel free to add what you think.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Let's see
Ro 7- simply put it is that war within us spirit vs the flesh. When we keep our eyes on the Lord, He gives us victory through His Spirit He has given us.
1 Jo 1:8- We still can sin- even though we may think otherwise sometimes, the HS shows me that even in my thoughts I sin, even if but for a moment.- arrogance or pride etc,, -It's ugly, and now we agree with God at it's ugliness and cast it aside by the Spirit. I find it humbling and yet I am grateful to see my sins at the same time.
It's all God in us!
I think of it similar to foot washings. We were already made clean, but still need to cleanse our feet. When we confess our sins- we are forgiven and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. 1jo 1:9?

Feel free to add what you think.

1 John 1 is a contrast between light vs. darkness from verse 5 to 10. A contrast between walking the walk vs. just talking the talk. See vs. 6. Just because John uses "we" is this really a born again Christian? 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." It has to do with our walk, not our talk. They will know we are Christians by our fruit. The Gnostics (1 John 4:1-3) say they don't sin, because to them, sins of the flesh don't matter because of God's grace. Only sins of the spirit matter to them like believing in Jesus's grace that saves us. These are the Nicolaitans who practiced raping each other's wives daily to show God's grace. Paul said, "shall see sin to prove God's grace, God forbid!" That is why God and true Christians hate the sins of the Nicolaitans. (It has nothing to do with breaking down the Latin word to mean "power of the laity.")

We see in 1 John 2:4 the answer of what the "lie" was about in 1 John 1:8:

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (Sound familiar?) 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

You see the lie wasn't saying we don't sin when we don't. The lie was saying we don't sin when we do. And know it! It is before the next verse to become a Christian when Jesus cleanses us from sin. If we say we don't sin, like the Jews under the Mosiac law, then you are a liar for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But after being cleansed of ALL unrighteousness and being born again, you can now walk in the light and naturally keep his commandments and our conscience is clear. How can it be a sin to acknowledge what the power of the blood of Jesus did in us? Many in the church do not believe we are free from sin. They use 1 John 1:9 as a get out of hell free card for the next time they sin. No. It is how to become a Christian, and comparable to Acts 2:38, Repent ....and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 John 1:7 is a Christian with a clear conscience. Jesus as the Author of our faith takes away the desire to commit sins of lawlessness. 1 John 3:4-5. Those are breaking a commandment of God and are sins unto death. John also talks of another type of sin in chapter 5, sins not unto death. (Peter shows those to be immature fruit of the Spirit. These the Finisher of our faith brings to our consciousness over time as He matures in us the fruit of the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-7. Read now through verse 11. When all the fruit are mature we will never stumble. These are holy.)
At the beginning, Jesus makes us righteous as the Author of our faith by taking away sins unto death. But as the Finisher of our faith (the second type of sin) He takes us to holiness. Righteous -----------------Holy.

Can you see how battered I am from my own brothers and sisters by teaching freedom from sin, when they all come back with you are a liar, 1 John 1:8! Brother, we are fighting ignorance in the church. They are western, but the apostles wrote in an eastern Semitic writing style.

I'll be back later for Romans 7. In the meantime, re-read Romans 7 from verse 1. You may want to "edit." CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT is everything - 20 verses before and after.

 

[Behold]

I do not understand why you are using this verse regarding when we were under the Law, and not in the Spirit.

I use this verse in Romans 7 to try to help someone who teaches that verse as.....>"we are all like this, because that is christianity".........So, i use this verse, because they did. , unless im posting a Thread that is talking about that verse., and then i'll bring it up.
And what i do, is i show them that this is not Paul's Christianity......its actually Paul's = Teaching....where he is showing the internal war that is caused by trying to do righteousness, instead of receiving righteousness, and understanding what that means.
So, that is their LEGALISM......issue, and it leads the person into broken faith..........And a broken faith is.....

= "i have to maintain my performance, and my obedience, and my faith, = SELF EFFORT"........to try to STAY SAVED.

See, anyone who is trying to prove that you can lose Salvaiton..........does not understand it at all, anymore.
Maybe they did at one time......but now they believe that they have to keep themselves saved, so that is why they try to find "lose it verses" in the NT that are not actually there.....but they mininterpret them.
And that is broken faith... doing that.

They will have a list of things they must do.....to try to keep from losing their salvation, and that proves they are not Trusting in Christ at all.

For example They will say..

"I have to abide"
"i have to keep commandments"
"I have to be sure i dont deny the Lord"
"i have to confess sin"

See those?
That is a person trying to keep themselves saved by doing THINGS and that is proof they have no faith in Christ, anymore.
They are "fallen from Grace".

I had hoped we were getting on the same page. But when born again the laws written on our clean heart is NOT against our nature; it IS our nature.

The born again have received the "divine nature".........and that is a part of being "circumcized from your flesh".
However, the reason that Paul tells believers to "reckon the old man dead", is because if you dont, He'll pressure you into sin consciousness.
This is why Paul teaches a lot regarding the old man of sin........and its because this carnal mind, always lusts against the spirit.....always.
The only way out of this is to understand how to walk empowered by God's Grace.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I use this verse in Romans 7 to try to help someone who teaches that verse as.....>"we are all like this, because that is christianity".........So, i use this verse, because they did. , unless im posting a Thread that is talking about that verse., and then i'll bring it up.
And what i do, is i show them that this is not Paul's Christianity......its actually Paul's = Teaching....where he is showing the internal war that is caused by trying to do righteousness, instead of receiving righteousness, and understanding what that means.
So, that is their LEGALISM......issue, and it leads the person into broken faith..........And a broken faith is.....

= "i have to maintain my performance, and my obedience, and my faith, = SELF EFFORT"........to try to STAY SAVED.

See, anyone who is trying to prove that you can lose Salvaiton..........does not understand it at all, anymore.
Maybe they did at one time......but now they believe that they have to keep themselves saved, so that is why they try to find "lose it verses" in the NT that are not actually there.....but they mininterpret them.
And that is broken faith... doing that.

They will have a list of things they must do.....to try to keep from losing their salvation, and that proves they are not Trusting in Christ at all.

For example They will say..

"I have to abide"
"i have to keep commandments"
"I have to be sure i dont deny the Lord"
"i have to confess sin"

See those?
That is a person trying to keep themselves saved by doing THINGS and that is proof they have no faith in Christ, anymore.
They are "fallen from Grace".

We pretty much believe the same thing, but we word it differently. Aren't you afraid you might be teaching someone to not abide in Christ, nor keep His commandments, even though for you and I we naturally abide and keep his commandments out of the divine nature. There is no "have to" in it. My desire is to know more and more about Scripture as the Spirit places questions in my mind to unravel, so I read it daily. And by doing what I want to do, I am naturally abiding in Christ. I don't worry about losing my own salvation. On the forums I worry there are so called Christians that have never been saved in the first place. I as an anointed by God Teacher need to undo a ton of false teachings. You can't lose something you never had.

And you are right about teaching about keeping the commandments when it is still against our nature. What we as teachers need to focus on is the kind of repentance that brings about being filled with the Spirit of God.

Question that just popped into my mind. Do you believe the born again still have a sin nature? I don't. And I've thought you don't either. Am I right or wrong?

The born again have received the "divine nature".........and that is a part of being "circumcized from your flesh".
However, the reason that Paul tells believers to "reckon the old man dead", is because if you dont, He'll pressure you into sin consciousness.
This is why Paul teaches a lot regarding the old man of sin........and its because this carnal mind, always lusts against the spirit.....always.
The only way out of this is to understand how to walk empowered by God's Grace.

Yes, even though for the truly born again, the old man/sin nature is dead, and will stay dead when we have not been brainwashed with a lot of doctrines of demons that say we will always sin until be die and receive new bodies. The "flesh" is the inside of us, not the outside. It is our spirit and soul that are what is born again. The spirit is our mind. We have the mind of Christ, just as Christ had the mind of the Father and could never sin; we can't either. And our soul is our conscience that maintains the fruit of the Spirit as Christ, the Finisher of our faith matures them until we never stumble, 2 Peter 1:2-11.

This is why Paul teaches a lot regarding the old man of sin........and its because this carnal mind, always lusts against the spirit.....always.
The only way out of this is to understand how to walk empowered by God's Grace.

I want to come back to this part. I believe the second line, but not the first. Tell me why you believe the born again have a carnal mind and always will? Did I understand you right? The unregenerated Mosaic Jews will always have a carnal mind, but that is because they haven't accepted their Messiah and repented. Are you thinking of Galatians 5:17? I wondered about that verse and prayed. God answered and I simply heard Him say, "the S is not capitalized." That is the fault of the publisher. The truth is then the same as Romans 7:25. It is the human spirit, and in this case in Galatians is unregenerated.

 

[Behold]

We pretty much believe the same thing, but we word it differently. Aren't you afraid you might be teaching someone to not abide in Christ,

The only way to "abide IN Christ" is to be IN Christ.
How do you get IN there ????????
A.) Born again.
Is it by good works or commandment keeping?
No.
AA.) Its by being BORN AGAIN....."IN Christ".
So, as good works and commandment keeping can't put you "IN CHRIST" , then not doing it can't cause you to not abide there.

Its a fact of Satan's power to blind a Christian, that he is so well able to cause them to not understand that..>>"if your works (behavior) could not be a part of your initial Salvaiton, when God saved you through your FAITH..... then how can your (behavor) now become what keeps you saved".......
Your Behavior nothing to do with being saved or staying Saved., as its The Cross of Christ that is why God will save us and keep us saved.

Jesus is Salvation. If we have Him in us, then we have eternal security, as He is our eternal security, because He is our Eternal Life.

So, The only way to abide INSIDE OF CHRIST...= "IN CHRIST">........is to be born again as "in Christ"., as that is how you abide there and stay there......and its eternal.

teachers need to focus on is the kind of repentance that brings about being filled with the Spirit of God.

Teachers of the Good news, never need to talk to believers about sin or repenting, in general.
They need to instruct the believers on how to "work out your Salvation" so that you dont end up deceived, trying to not lose your salvation, or believing that you can.

Question that just popped into my mind. Do you believe the born again still have a sin nature? I don't. And I've thought you don't either. Am I right or wrong?

The body of sin, is crucified with Christ.
However there is the carnal mind that enlists the flesh.

So, the born again Spirit is Colossians 2:11., and we are "complete in Him"....Colossians 2:10

However the mind is not born again, nor is the body........so, the mind has to be renewed or its going to get into flesh issues.
The #1 flesh issue, is trying to stay saved, or believing that you can lose your Salvation.
This person is "fallen from Grace".
Paul says they are "bewitched" and "do not obey the truth".

and will stay dead when we have not been brainwashed with a lot of doctrines of demons that say we will always sin until be die and receive new bodies.

When a person has been taught that Romans 7, is "Christianity", and they believe it.......When they believe that they are this one.......>"that which i want to do i can't and that which i hate i do".......then their Discipleship is destroyed.

2 members here..........NetChaplin and Ronald Nolette, will tell you all day and all night that Romans 7, is "Christianity" so expect to .. "sin, repent, and repeat" as that is what they both teach, and not only them on this forum.
I suspect that both of them have "worn out their confessor" by now., and that is what you do when you dont understand The Cross of Christ, but pretend you do.

Tell me why you believe the born again have a carnal mind and always will?

A Christian is NOT to have a carnal mind as that is"enmity against God and you can't do what you should do".

So, the Carnal mind, is "the mind of the Flesh"........and the Carnal mind believes that you can lose your salvation because that mind does not TRUIST IN CHRIST.
This is why that carnally minded person is trying to quote verses that they believe prove you can lose Salvation, along with verse that they believe you have to DO, and KEEP< or you will lost your Salvaiton.
This person is carnally minded, and their faith is broken.
They are "fallen from Grace".. = they do not understand God's Grace.

 

[PS95]

1 John 1 is a contrast between light vs. darkness from verse 5 to 10. A contrast between walking the walk vs. just talking the talk. See vs. 6. Just because John uses "we" is this really a born again Christian? 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." It has to do with our walk, not our talk. They will know we are Christians by our fruit. The Gnostics (1 John 4:1-3) say they don't sin, because to them, sins of the flesh don't matter because of God's grace. Only sins of the spirit matter to them like believing in Jesus's grace that saves us. These are the Nicolaitans who practiced raping each other's wives daily to show God's grace. Paul said, "shall see sin to prove God's grace, God forbid!" That is why God and true Christians hate the sins of the Nicolaitans. (It has nothing to do with breaking down the Latin word to mean "power of the laity.")

We see in 1 John 2:4 the answer of what the "lie" was about in 1 John 1:8:

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (Sound familiar?) 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

You see the lie wasn't saying we don't sin when we don't. The lie was saying we don't sin when we do. And know it! It is before the next verse to become a Christian when Jesus cleanses us from sin. If we say we don't sin, like the Jews under the Mosiac law, then you are a liar for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But after being cleansed of ALL unrighteousness and being born again, you can now walk in the light and naturally keep his commandments and our conscience is clear. How can it be a sin to acknowledge what the power of the blood of Jesus did in us? Many in the church do not believe we are free from sin. They use 1 John 1:9 as a get out of hell free card for the next time they sin. No. It is how to become a Christian, and comparable to Acts 2:38, Repent ....and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 John 1:7 is a Christian with a clear conscience. Jesus as the Author of our faith takes away the desire to commit sins of lawlessness. 1 John 3:4-5. Those are breaking a commandment of God and are sins unto death. John also talks of another type of sin in chapter 5, sins not unto death. (Peter shows those to be immature fruit of the Spirit. These the Finisher of our faith brings to our consciousness over time as He matures in us the fruit of the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-7. Read now through verse 11. When all the fruit are mature we will never stumble. These are holy.)
At the beginning, Jesus makes us righteous as the Author of our faith by taking away sins unto death. But as the Finisher of our faith (the second type of sin) He takes us to holiness. Righteous -----------------Holy.

Can you see how battered I am from my own brothers and sisters by teaching freedom from sin, when they all come back with you are a liar, 1 John 1:8! Brother, we are fighting ignorance in the church. They are western, but the apostles wrote in an eastern Semitic writing style.

I'll be back later for Romans 7. In the meantime, re-read Romans 7 from verse 1. You may want to "edit." CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT is everything - 20 verses before and after.

Good! 1 John 1:5- tells us that John is announcing the message they've heard, so yes, I do agree with you that this is the initial salvation response to the gospel announced. The one who does not admit to being a sinner is a liar - v 8. Ok good..
However, I still see that once saved we are still to confess sins - It is agreeing with God of it's ugliness- Jesus' blood covered it and we have the power in us to conquer that sin by the Spirit. We have to SEE the sin in us before we can conquer it. The Spirit convicts us of our sins- even now. So we do see it in us. At least that's how it is for me... it is not condemnation- when we walk in the Spirit we won't sin. When we lose sight and walk in the flesh we do sin, and the Spirit shows me my sin, and in this way I are drawn back to abide & walk in the Spirit.
Let me explain it this way-- when I take my eyes off of Jesus- I tend to say something not pleasing to Him or think something unkind. To me, that is sin. I don't know how you define sin. It is when I say or do or think something that is not pleasing to the Lord. I don't mean to, but I did in a momentary lapse . So when convicted, I confess it, and am thankful for the insight and I know I am forgiven.
This is about the heart and God has given me a new heart- amen? I have no idea why anyone has a problem with confessing a sin.
James 5
"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

It is NOT working to STAY saved as Behold claims. We are sanctified and being sanctified because we are saved.
If none of that is happening in a person's life they are either very new to the faith or not saved. We have been born again by the Spirit and we are being made new daily in renewing of our minds and putting the deeds of the flesh to death by the Spirit.
Yes! I love 2 Peter's teaching on how not to stumble. I am still a work in progress there. Very grateful that he wrote that for us.
He says- we are to apply all diligence to--moral excellence- knowledge- self control- perseverance-godliness *
Again, Only by the gift of the Spirit in us can we do that- He who has begun a good work in us will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ!! So I don't fret- I trust Him.

My beef with Behold is his insistence that no one needs to repent of sins ever---
and then, once you are saved- your behavior does not matter either- because you are now sinless.
This sends a terrible dangerous message.
Behold rejects James and Peter and only trusts "Paul's gospel" which he twists
I see ONE gospel not two as Behold does.
Let me say, I do believe that Behold is being sanctified- words it as discipleship.. but since he insists on saying what he does repeatedly, (above) he is selling a cheap grace where all you do is profess, and that what you do is of no consequence in eternity. That is false.

I would like to know if a group of gay men joined his church- would he tell them that sodomy is sinful behavior if they persisted, or would he say they are forgiven, so behavior is of no consequence? Because THAT is what he is saying when he proclaims future sins are all gone so behavior has no effect eternally.
I am merely trying to make him be more cautious with his words. He attacks other believers calling them cult members who believe that obedience to Christ after salvation matters. He will say if they are born again it does not matter- sins are forgiven and they will go to heaven. NO!
I would say they aren't born again if the HS Is not convicting them of their sins, and they are not putting them to death.

I may not have every detail down perfectly or even wording this exactly right--, but I am where I am because that is where the Lord has taken me. I don't insist on my own way- I just follow His voice. I came out of cult teachings raised in the JWs-
so I don't listen to man's teachings only- but to the Lord. The Spirit of God guides me and I rest in that.

I find it futile to debate over things that are not salvational . People bicker endlessly about everything on here.
It's fine to discuss things, but I do not want to hear that confessing a sin is heretical and means I have fallen from grace. That's absurd.

I will read Ro 7 later- I never saw it as an excuse to sin, or as if we don't have any power in the Spirit. I think it may go back to what I said above.

 

[amigo de christo]

Let's see
Ro 7- simply put it is that war within us spirit vs the flesh. When we keep our eyes on the Lord, He gives us victory through His Spirit He has given us.
1 Jo 1:8- We still can sin- even though we may think otherwise sometimes, the HS shows me that even in my thoughts I sin, even if but for a moment.- arrogance or pride etc,, -It's ugly, and now we agree with God at it's ugliness and cast it aside by the Spirit. I find it humbling and yet I am grateful to see my sins at the same time.
It's all God in us!
I think of it similar to foot washings. We were already made clean, but still need to cleanse our feet. When we confess our sins- we are forgiven and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. 1jo 1:9?

Feel free to add what you think.

That is the sin that sins . the thoughts produced by the flesh .
But what many seem to misunderstand big time
is that if they act OUT a sin , THEY ARE NOT SINNING . THAT IS NOT TRUE at all .
WE must by THE POWER of the SPIRIT
when that lustful thought pops into our mind , cause that is WHAT THE FLESH DOES ,
CRUCIFY IT and do NOT act it out .
Sin is present in the flesh . THE SPIRIT is present in the sheep .
And its a die daily battle my friend .
But our thoughts do not condmen us , the lustful thoughts come of the flesh .
BUT if we entertain it , LOOK OUT its leading one RIGHT INTO SIN .
Hope that helps my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

1 John 1:5- tells us that John is announcing the message they've heard, so yes, I do agree with you that this is the initial salvation response to the gospel announced. The one who does not admit to being a sinner is a liar - v 8. Ok good..
However, I still see that once saved we are still to confess sins - It is agreeing with God of it's ugliness- Jesus' blood covered it and we have the power in us to conquer that sin by the Spirit. We have to SEE the sin in us before we can conquer it. The Spirit convicts us of our sins- even now. At least that's how it is for me... it is not condemnation- when we walk in the Spirit we won't sin. When we lose sight and walk in the flesh we do sin and the Spirit shows me my sin, and in this way I are drawn back to abide & walk in the Spirit. Let me explain i this way-- when I take my eyes off of Jesus- I tend to say something not pleasing to Him or think something. To me, that is sin. I dont know how you define sin. It is when I say or do or think something that is not pleasing to the Lord. I don't mean to, but I did in a momentary lapse . So when convicted, I confess it, and am thankful for the insight and I know I am forgiven.
This is about the heart and God has given me a new heart- amen? I have no idea why anyone has a problem with confessing a sin.
James 5
"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

It is NOT working to STAY saved as Behold claims. We are sanctified and being sanctified because we are saved.
If none of that is happening in a person's life they are either very new to the faith or not saved. We have been born again by the Spirit and we are being made new daily in renewing of our minds and putting the deeds of the flesh to death by the Spirit.
I love 2 Peter's teaching on how not to stumble. I am still a work in progress there. Very grateful that he wrote that for us.
He says- we are to apply all diligence to--moral excellence- knowledge- self control- perseverance-godliness *
Only by the gift of the Spirit in us can we do that- He who has begun a good work in us will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. So I don't fret- I trust Him.

My beef with Behold is his insistence that no one needs to repent of sins ever---
and then, once you are saved- your behavior does not matter either- because you are now sinless.
This sends a terrible dangerous message.
Behold rejects James and Peter and only trusts "Paul's gospel" which he twists
I see ONE gospel not two as Behold does.
Let me say, I do believe that Behold is being sanctified- words it as discipleship.. but since he insists on saying what he does repeatedly, (above) he is selling a cheap grace where all you do is profess, and that what you do is of no consequence in eternity. That is false.

I would like to know if a group of gay men joined his church- would he tell them that sodomy is sinful behavior if they persisted, or would he say they are forgiven, so behavior is of no consequence? Because THAT is what he is saying when he proclaims future sins are all gone so behavior has no effect eternally. I am merely trying to make him be more cautious with his words. He attacks other believers calling them cult members who believe that obedience to Christ after salvation matters. He will say if they are born again it does not matter- sins are forgiven and they will go to heaven. NO!
I say they aren't born again if the HS Is not convicting them of their sins, and they are not putting them to death.

I may not have every detail down perfectly or even wording it exactly right--, but I am where I am because that is where the Lord has taken me. I don't insist on my own way- I just follow His voice. I came out of cult teachings raised in the JWs-
so I don't listen to man's teachings only- but to the Lord. The Spirit of God guides me and I rest in that.

I find it futile to debate over things that are not salvational . People bicker endlessly about everything.
It's fine to discuss things, but I do not want to hear that confessing a sin is heretical and means I have fallen from grace. That's absurd.

exactly my friend . They would tell them
OH ITS NOT YOU SINNING . but that would be a lie right there .
Some folks got things messed up big time .
But lets look at what paul says about sin .
Lets see what paul wrote . LET all who name the NAME OF CHRIST DEPART FROM INQUITY .
And GOD WONT BE MOCKED EITHER . HE who sows to the flesh shall of the flesh reap CORRUPTION
but he who sows to the SPIRIT shall of the SPIRIT reap LIFE everlasting .
Sin got corrected IN the early church . but today its JUDGE NOT , HEY WE ALL SIN
JUDGE NOT . or as others say , OH ITS NOT THEM SINNING its the SIN .
People screwed things up . But as you wrote , ITS quite simple really .

 

[PS95]

That is the sin that sins . the thoughts produced by the flesh .
But what many seem to misunderstand big time
is that if they act OUT a sin , THEY ARE NOT SINNING . THAT IS NOT TRUE at all .
WE must by THE POWER of the SPIRIT
when that lustful thought pops into our mind , cause that is WHAT THE FLESH DOES ,
CRUCIFY IT and do NOT act it out .
Sin is present in the flesh . THE SPIRIT is present in the sheep .
And its a die daily battle my friend .
But our thoughts do not condmen us , the lustful thoughts come of the flesh .
BUT if we entertain it , LOOK OUT its leading one RIGHT INTO SIN .
Hope that helps my friend .

I hear you amigo, for me- just the thought is disgusting evil and wrong.- maybe renewing of the mind is at play. I get that not acting on it is important of course, but the thought is just as wicked to me. I don't feel condemned but convicted because the HS was gracious enough to let me see it. Does that make sense?

 

[PS95]

exactly my friend . They would tell them
OH ITS NOT YOU SINNING . but that would be a lie right there .
Some folks got things messed up big time .
But lets look at what paul says about sin .
Lets see what paul wrote . LET all who name the NAME OF CHRIST DEPART FROM INQUITY .
And GOD WONT BE MOCKED EITHER . HE who sows to the flesh shall of the flesh reap CORRUPTION
but he who sows to the SPIRIT shall of the SPIRIT reap LIFE everlasting .
Sin got corrected IN the early church . but today its JUDGE NOT , HEY WE ALL SIN
JUDGE NOT . or as others say , OH ITS NOT THEM SINNING its the SIN .
People screwed things up . But as you wrote , ITS quite simple really .

who is it it if it isn't them? Do they think it's literal they they are stuck with a block of sin in them --so the devil made them do it kind of thing? oh boy..lol is this from Ro 7? wow--
He that is in us is greater!!!
Peter did warn us that some would twist Paul's words to their own destruction...

 

[amigo de christo]

I hear you amigo, for me- just the thought is disgusting evil and wrong.- maybe renewing of the mind is at play. I get that not acting on it is important of course, but the thought is just as wicked to me. I don't feel condemned but convicted because the HS was gracious enough to let me see it. Does that make sense?

oh it makes sense my friend . We now hate the sin . Even the thought should grieve us .
HE is the one who convicts us my friend . But many sure seem to love sin .
Even inventing a jesus who pleases their flesh . that is why i said a jesus because it darn sure aint THE JESUS
or HIS SPIRIT at work producing such an image of KING JESUS .
People love sin . And when i say people i mean a whole lot who even lip the NAME of JESUS .
Things have not been looking good at all my friend . And how fast and how worse its getting in these last days too .

 

[amigo de christo]

who is it it if it isn't them? Do they think it's literal they they are stuck with a block of sin in them --so the devil made them do it kind of thing? oh boy..lol is this from Ro 7? wow--
He that is in us is greater!!!
Peter did warn us that some would twist Paul's words to their own destruction...

I wonder what might say
if a believer slept with their underage daughter
WOULD they say OH ITS NOT HIM SINNING , ITS JUST THE SIN SINNING .
Exactly my friend .
WHEN that man HAD his fathers wife
PAUL had him put OUT OF the CHURCH
HE didnt say OH it was not him sinning it was just the sin sinning . PEOPLE beleive all sorts of things these days .
But sheep , THEY BELEIVE JESUS THE CHRIST AND ALL LOVELY TRUTH . they wont twist and divide
omit and remove truths to FIT some kind of lie that pleased their flesh .
Just keep marching onwards in the LORD my friend . Times will quickly get worse in these last hours .
But all we can do is speak the TRUTH and DO NOT COMPROMISE or CONFORM one millimeter
in the direction this church age , IN LARGE is headed . Stand firm to the END my friend , no matter the cost for doing so .
JESUS is with the sheep .

 

[amigo de christo]

I hear you amigo, for me- just the thought is disgusting evil and wrong.- maybe renewing of the mind is at play. I get that not acting on it is important of course, but the thought is just as wicked to me. I don't feel condemned but convicted because the HS was gracious enough to let me see it. Does that make sense?

And its why i cringed big time
when i once heard one telling me
That is should say a word and a god when they were speaking about THE GOSPEL of JOHN .
THEY CHANGED IT . they planted the idea a word and NOT RATHER AS IT WAS WRITTEN THE WORD .
people love to beleive all sorts of things .
But sheep , THEY GONNA BELEIVE TRUTH as it IS WRITTEN and SPOKEN . TRUTH .

 

[Behold]

My beef with Behold is his insistence that no one needs to repent of sins ever---

Jesus has your sins, or you do.
They are forgiven 2000 yrs ago on The Cross or they are not.
So, If you have them, then you're not born again., and Jesus says "you'll die in your sins".

Whereas....The Christian is eternally "made free" from sin, having become : "The Righteousness of God in Christ".

Notice.. Reader.

Does Jesus have any sin?
Does God have any sin?

So, Are the born again "in Christ" and "one with God" ???.........So, if you had sin, or if you were held accountable for sin, then you would not be "in Christ or "One with God".....you would still be separated from God by your sin, and on your way to Hell.

Salvation, is Eternal Forgiveness of Sin.......and its to become "not under the Law"........so, this means that all sin is forgiven, and the Law can no longer define you as a sinner, or your deeds as sin.

Does this mean you are going to be perfect in your behavior?
No.
It means that Salvation has achieved for you........ righteousness, that is eternal.
This means that God will never charge you with sin, because "Jesus is the one time ETERNAL... sacrifice for sin".

Well, "behold" what do i do when i mess up. ??
You realize that you are the "righteousness of God in Christ".......at all times.
And if you want to have a talk with God about your carnality, then you should...but you dont keep trying to stay saved by confessing what God does not charge against you since the day you were born again.
Now if you are just a water baptized religious person, who can cut and paste verses, but you're not really born again, then im not talking to you, as you are not a part of God, yet. So, run along and get that solved, and then come back, redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb and i can show you some revelation, and teach you how to "work our your salvation" and grow spiritually.

Now...Read these verses, and take note that God does not Charge SIN against the born again.

Romans 4:8

2 Corin 5:19

John 3:17

and then, once you are saved- your behavior does not matter either- because you are now sinless.

What will you deal with as a Christian........if you pursue deeds of the flesh......carnality......willfully,.? ?????????????

A) Harsh Consequences on this earth.

Like what?

Well, if you decided to live in carnality.......as a Christian...then you will start to lose many things, and this is the consequences of your choice.
Over time Your life will fall apart, ...,= family problems......job loss, bank account ruined, health gone.
You'll lose your ministry if you have a Church.
You will watch your life disintegrate, and you wont be able to stop it......because it takes time for all your carnal consequences to come to fruition.
Can take decades., reader.
And all you can do is watch it all burn........and you wont be able to stop it, because you will "reap what you've sown".
Evern Your conscience will become seared so that things of the Spirit of God, are closed to you..........like the Bible for instance.
You will begin , after a time, to have a sense that you are under God's judgment, and this FEAR will bug your mind, especially in the late night hours.
And of course your witness, your testamony for Jesus, is gone..gone .........gone.

Now the only thing that a carnal christian....who persits in it till they are destroyed on earth, can't lose, is your Salvation, as this is from God, and is an eternal GIFT.....and is not based on how you behave. Its based on what Jesus has supplied as GOD's "Gift of Salvaiton". So, your carnality does not affect you being born again as this is Spiritual., and Eternal.

 

[PS95]

And its why i cringed big time
when i once heard one telling me
That is should say a word and a god when they were speaking about THE GOSPEL of JOHN .
THEY CHANGED IT . they planted the idea a word and NOT RATHER AS IT WAS WRITTEN THE WORD .
people love to beleive all sorts of things .
But sheep , THEY GONNA BELEIVE TRUTH as it IS WRITTEN and SPOKEN . TRUTH .

the JW world is a life time ago for me. It is a whole other thing - it has nothing to do with being a Christian.
It is a manmade list of rules and regulations that are carnally followed to "get ready" to able to earn everlasting life on earthly paradise where if they don't sin once in 1000 yrs they will be worthy of. This life is a practice for that one-- Their deeds in this life do not count! Their sins are not forgiven- they physically died to pay their sin debt..
- so they earn a resurrection as sinless because they died......
Many don't realize how ridiculous they are. They don't come out and say those things to you. They come among us as if they are believers. They slowly sew seeds of doubt in people until they are under their spell- believing that only they have "truth"
to the point where they will believe that the bible teaches that by cherry picking partial verses.
No truly born again person will be fooled by them for long.- But new seekers and undecided and the confused can be. There are people here and everywhere that think they are just another denomination. No. There is NOTHING Christian about them.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

cc: Also to @PS95 @amigo de christo

​

Salvation, is Eternal Forgiveness of Sin.......and its to become "not under the Law"........so, this means that all sin is forgiven, and the Law can no longer define you as a sinner, or your deeds as sin.

Does this mean you are going to be perfect in your behavior?
No.
It means that Salvation has achieved for you........ righteousness, that is eternal.
This means that God will never charge you with sin, because "Jesus is the one time ETERNAL... sacrifice for sin".

Well, "behold" what do i do when i mess up. ??
You realize that you are the "righteousness of God in Christ".......at all times.
And if you want to have a talk with God about your carnality, then you should...but you dont keep trying to stay saved by confessing what God does not charge against you since the day you were born again.
Now if you are just a water baptized religious person, who can cut and paste verses, but you're not really born again, then im not talking to you, as you are not a part of God, yet. So, run along and get that solved, and then come back, redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb and i can show you some revelation, and teach you how to "work our your salvation" and grow spiritually.

"So run along and get that solved, and then come back"?

What is it you are teaching here? "Your carnal deeds are not sin." "God does not charge (sin) against you since the day you were born again."

Behold, don't you know that the greatest subject you can teach on Christian forums to church goers is HOW to become born again of the Spirit and how you know whether you are or not? But you say instead, "so run along and get that solved, and then come back"? Huh? That is not teaching, my friend.

Now...Read these verses, and take note that God does not Charge SIN against the born again.

Romans 4:8

2 Corin 5:19

John 3:17

Romans 4:8 is part of Paul's 8-chapter teaching on the Old Covenant vs. the New Covenant; the Law vs. the Spirit; and Sin vs. Freedom from Sin. Verse 8 is a quote out of the Old Covenant that becomes a paradigm of the truth in the last chapter of the whole teaching.

2 Cor. 5:18-19 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

The born again are free from Sin unto death - sins of lawlessness. 1 John 3 is about the first type of sin, the only type that can send us to hell - sins unto death. As we walk in the Spirit, our trespasses (sins not unto death) are not imputed against us as were the sins unto death. 1 John 1:7 "7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." That does NOT mean sins unto death, but sins not unto death - trespasses. From the context of the whole New Covenant Peter shows us they are unintentional deeds done due to immature fruit of the Spirit, as the Finisher of our faith matures them in us over time as He convicts our conscience of them one at a time, 2 Peter 1:5-7.

Our schoolmaster says in Leviticus 5:15 “If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally..."

John 3:16-17 "16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

Hebrews 12:2 "2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Note the gospel is in pairs.
Hebrews 12:2 - (a) Author, (b) Finisher
Revelation 22:11 - (a) Righteous, (b) Holy
Types of sin, 1 John 5:16-17 (a) sins unto death, (b) sins not unto death
The power of God. Romans 1:16-17 (a) faith, (b) to faith.

What will you deal with as a Christian........if you pursue deeds of the flesh......carnality......willfully,.? ?????????????

A) Harsh Consequences on this earth.

Like what?

Well, if you decided to live in carnality.......as a Christian...then you will start to lose many things, and this is the consequences of your choice.
Over time Your life will fall apart, ...,= family problems......job loss, bank account ruined, health gone.
You'll lose your ministry if you have a Church.
You will watch your life disintegrate, and you wont be able to stop it......because it takes time for all your carnal consequences to come to fruition.
Can take decades., reader.
And all you can do is watch it all burn........and you wont be able to stop it, because you will "reap what you've sown".
Evern Your conscience will become seared so that things of the Spirit of God, are closed to you..........like the Bible for instance.
You will begin , after a time, to have a sense that you are under God's judgment, and this FEAR will bug your mind, especially in the late night hours.
And of course your witness, your testamony for Jesus, is gone..gone .........gone.

Now the only thing that a carnal christian....who persits in it till they are destroyed on earth, can't lose, is your Salvation, as this is from God, and is an eternal GIFT.....and is not based on how you behave. Its based on what Jesus has supplied as GOD's "Gift of Salvaiton". So, your carnality does not affect you being born again as this is Spiritual., and Eternal.

Just harsh consequences on this earth. It doesn't appear to me that these were ever born again of the Spirit. Carnality is not freedom from sin. Not all the Corinthians were saved. What some of them needed was true repentance. Paul's harsh letter to them woke them up, one from even turning him over to Satan for the death of their carnal nature. Though Paul was harsh, it seemed to work, as seen in his next letter to them.

2 Corinthians 2:6 This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him.

2 Corinthians 7:1, 8-11
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God...
8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

The born again have received the "divine nature".........and that is a part of being "circumcized from your flesh".
However, the reason that Paul tells believers to "reckon the old man dead", is because if you dont, He'll pressure you into sin consciousness.
This is why Paul teaches a lot regarding the old man of sin........and its because this carnal mind, always lusts against the spirit.....always.
The only way out of this is to understand how to walk empowered by God's Grace.

Yes, I agree, but about those who hang on to the old man, while giving God lip service.
Ephesians 4: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Before I was born again, sin consciousness was always present. But not after... Reckoning the old man is dead is telling yourself the truth. You remember when the dark heaviness of sin lifted out of you - your spirit and soul - when you were filled then with the Holy Spirit who makes His presence known to you daily. So that when you hear a false doctrine you know it immediately by the Spirit of God. And the pleasures of the world do not hold any value to you.

This, again has to do with abiding in the divine nature of God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

@Behold @PS95 @amigo de christo

Behold,

The difference between us, you and me as teachers, may be in our own history. This may sound odd, but I was lucky enough to become entrapped in a major lawless sin that opened my eyes. What Satan made for evil actually opened my eyes to my need for the power of God, His Spirit. It became painfully clear to me after I spent 30 years in church studying the Bible, believing in Jesus, sinning and repenting, but never overcoming them, so again with the sinning and repenting ritual. And yet if I had died, I would have gone straight to hell!!! Why? Because I was not born again of the Spirit! And didn't even know it.

I was raised Seventh-day Adventist so knew the law backwards and forward, but nothing of the Spirit because of SDA's belief in cessationism. Why teach us the Spirit of God when we don't need His gifts? We have the Bible, so no need even for the Spirit of prophecy. We have our own prophetess so don't need another! And being born again of the Spirit was.....? Well, I don't know what they thought as they never taught on it. I was like a Mosiac Jew that also believed in their Messiah. It wasn't enough, even though at that time I had been baptized twice! Then when I was 23 I left the denomination after an all night debate with a well-known singer who taught me about the grace of God. After that I was "on the road" with my recording artist husband, and met a woman who debated with me against cessationism, and she won! After that my husband and I together sought the Spirit to no avail before we divorced. We kept searching separately. For me it took seven years! (My ex, 6 months before me). It wasn't until I met a married man and fell in love with him happily committing the sin of adultery. After a year and a half, I stumbled upon actually becoming born again of the Spirit, Authored completely by God. And now, this is where you and I differ greatly in what we find important to teach.

Behold, can you please tell me your testimony, if not on here, maybe in a personal conversation? Seeing as we are both teachers, I'd like to know your background. I just told you the beginning of mine. It has been 48 years since I was born again of the Spirit, and 25 years since God spoke to me while I was alone driving in the Arizona desert and said, "I am giving you the office of teacher." Later the next day when I reached California, my old pastor did the anointing with oil. God has been filling my mind with the truth ever since. 1 John 2:27.

The only way to "abide IN Christ" is to be IN Christ.
How do you get IN there ????????
A.) Born again.
Is it by good works or commandment keeping?
No.
AA.) Its by being BORN AGAIN....."IN Christ".
So, as good works and commandment keeping can't put you "IN CHRIST" , then not doing it can't cause you to not abide there.

Its a fact of Satan's power to blind a Christian, that he is so well able to cause them to not understand that..>>"if your works (behavior) could not be a part of your initial Salvaiton, when God saved you through your FAITH..... then how can your (behavor) now become what keeps you saved".......
Your Behavior nothing to do with being saved or staying Saved., as its The Cross of Christ that is why God will save us and keep us saved.

Jesus is Salvation. If we have Him in us, then we have eternal security, as He is our eternal security, because He is our Eternal Life.

So, The only way to abide INSIDE OF CHRIST...= "IN CHRIST">........is to be born again as "in Christ"., as that is how you abide there and stay there......and its eternal.

How do you deal with these IN CHRIST. John 15:1-4?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch IN Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

What does "takes away" mean to you?

Note to be IN Christ we have already been cleansed of all unrighteousness, vs. 3. That is based on 1 John 3:4-5. Lawlessness has already been taken out of our nature. All that is left to bear fruit are these fruit of the Spirit.

I noticed that the well known passage in Matthew 7 regarding not being "known" by Jesus, followed verses on being known as Christians by our fruit. Any comparison for you to John 15:2?

Teachers of the Good news, never need to talk to believers about sin or repenting, in general.
They need to instruct the believers on how to "work out your Salvation" so that you dont end up deceived, trying to not lose your salvation, or believing that you can.

According to my own experience with being born again of the Spirit I know I will never lose my salvation, because I just don't want to. The Spirit has given me more and more anointing over the years to keep loving what God loves, and absolutely hating what God hates. I KNOW Jesus, because He abides IN me. But that is just me. What about those who are raised in the Church. Are they truly IN CHRIST, or just IN CHURCH. What I do know about those is found in Revelation. Many Christians will go through the Great Tribulation unprotected, but have "robes." They are not naked, so are not atheists. These Christians will need to allow themselves to be martyred as they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb. The Philadelphian Christians are born again and have white robes. They are the ones whom God keeps protected, or have already been raptured, whichever is true.

The body of sin, is crucified with Christ.
However there is the carnal mind that enlists the flesh.

So, the born again Spirit is Colossians 2:11., and we are "complete in Him"....Colossians 2:10

However the mind is not born again, nor is the body........so, the mind has to be renewed or its going to get into flesh issues.
The #1 flesh issue, is trying to stay saved, or believing that you can lose your Salvation.
This person is "fallen from Grace".
Paul says they are "bewitched" and "do not obey the truth".

The mind is the spirit, so for the born again is not still dead from Adam's sin. It has been reborn, along with the heart. Together they, the spirit and soul, make up our nature. Divine or Carnal. The born again mind is the mind of Christ, 1 Cor. 2:16. It is not we who renew our own mind, it is Christ, Himself IN us, who renews our consciousness daily, teaching us, glorifying us.

When a person has been taught that Romans 7, is "Christianity", and they believe it.......When they believe that they are this one.......>"that which i want to do i can't and that which i hate i do".......then their Discipleship is destroyed.

Some members will tell you all day and all night that Romans 7, is "Christianity" so expect to .. "sin, repent, and repeat" as that is what they teach.

You are speaking of Romans 7:14-25 and I agree. That we learned from the first verse is about the Mosaic Law. It is verses 5-6 that are Christians. I've noticed also that those who claim Romans 7:14-25 are Christians do the same to 1 John 1:8 and 10. They also use 1 John 1:9 as a get out of hell free card, when, in fact, it is the same as Acts 2:38 on how to become a Christian, thus free from the desire to sin. (I have added "desire" to my teachings to emphasize we do NOT have 2 natures. What do you think about adding "desire" for clarity? ) You see, one day I was in love with a married man, and the next day I wasn't. What changed? Being born again and the desire for sin was gone.

A Christian is NOT to have a carnal mind as that is"enmity against God and you can't do what you should do".

So, the Carnal mind, is "the mind of the Flesh"........and the Carnal mind believes that you can lose your salvation because that mind does not TRUIST IN CHRIST.
This is why that carnally minded person is trying to quote verses that they believe prove you can lose Salvation, along with verse that they believe you have to DO, and KEEP< or you will lost your Salvaiton.
This person is carnally minded, and their faith is broken.
They are "fallen from Grace".. = they do not understand God's Grace.

After all these 78 years studying the Bible, and 48 years of being born again with Christ living inside me (Oh, the miracles I've seen!), I know I am saved. I hate sin so much I could never fall back into dog's vomit. And maybe that is the same for you. But I worry about lukewarm Christians and the inevitable "falling away," 2 Thes. 2:3 Don't you?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

the JW world is a life time ago for me. It is a whole other thing - it has nothing to do with being a Christian.
It is a manmade list of rules and regulations that are carnally followed to "get ready" to able to earn everlasting life on earthly paradise where if they don't sin once in 1000 yrs they will be worthy of. This life is a practice for that one-- Their deeds in this life do not count! Their sins are not forgiven- they physically died to pay their sin debt..
- so they earn a resurrection as sinless because they died......
Many don't realize how ridiculous they are. They don't come out and say those things to you. They come among us as if they are believers. They slowly sew seeds of doubt in people until they are under their spell- believing that only they have "truth"
to the point where they will believe that the bible teaches that by cherry picking partial verses.
No truly born again person will be fooled by them for long.- But new seekers and undecided and the confused can be. There are people here and everywhere that think they are just another denomination. No. There is NOTHING Christian about them.

Wow, I had no idea JWs believed some of this stuff, especially dying for your own sins! I've talked to one about doctrines of Christianity and couldn't tell they weren't Christian. I'll have to rethink not worrying about them.