Of what value is retribution against humankind to God? - Love your enemies?

[St. SteVen]

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation of humankind,
what would be the value of retribution against humankind? What does it accomplish?

Three views of the final judgment:
- Damnationism (eternal punishment)
- Annihilationism (destruction of the wicked)
- Universalism (ultimate redemption)

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

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[soberxp]

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation of humankind,
what would be the value of retribution against humankind? What does it accomplish?

Three views of the final judgment:
- Damnationism (eternal punishment)
- Annihilationism (destruction of the wicked)
- Universalism (ultimate redemption)

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

[

In the Old Testament, God has shown the value of retribution for unbelievers, and man is weak before the power of God.

But value of retribution for unbelievers which is not the goal of God.

So God send Jesus Christ who told us Love your enemies.

The enemy may be poor and pitiful in the eyes of God.

 

[Windmill Charge]

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

I find it strange that someone so intelligent and with so much biblical knowledge cannot understand the gospel.

God so Loved the world ( people ) that he sent his Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

God loves those who hate him and what he represents.

That there is a God is very obvious, so can you say why people in the west are so hostile to the idea of God?

Why should God do more than he has already done to demonstrate his love ?

 

[St. SteVen]

So God send Jesus Christ who told us Love your enemies.

Does God operate under a lower standard than He holds us to?

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[St. SteVen]

I find it strange that someone so intelligent and with so much biblical knowledge cannot understand the gospel.

I'll take that as a compliment.
For me, there is a gospel presented by the church and a gospel that makes more sense to me.
Two different gospels, I suppose. I can't accept the gospel presented by the church, as it stands.
(damnationism)

God so Loved the world ( people ) that he sent his Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

That's gospel, I agree.
Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge...

God loves those who hate him and what he represents.

As He should. But will He demonstrate mercy to all humankind?

That there is a God is very obvious, so can you say why people in the west are so hostile to the idea of God?

People in the west?
No problems in the east? - LOL

Why should God do more than he has already done to demonstrate his love ?

He should do more than the church claims.
What purpose would retribution serve?
I'd like to think that God has better qualities than a playground bully.

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[Lambano]

Of what value is retribution against humankind to God?​

(Love the typo.)

 

[Lambano]

Of what value is retribution against humankind to God?​

They serve as a warning. Those guys in the red shirts were expendable anyways. (Original Star Trek series reference!)

 

[St. SteVen]

Of what value is retribution against humankind to God?

I suppose follow-up question would be:
What is the difference between consequences and retribution?

It's one thing to step in a bear trap; and quite another to be eaten by the bear.

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[Aunty Jane]

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation of humankind,
what would be the value of retribution against humankind? What does it accomplish?

Retribution against mankind? He’s the Creator of mankind....an act of love on his part to give us not only life, but the most amazing planet to call home. He designed us to live forever, right here on this earth, but because free will was abused, it became a curse and landed us in a predicament from which we could not extract ourselves. He created a rescue plan and bailed us out of it. He does not want a single soul to perish, but wants all to live as he created us to. Our obedience is all he ever asked of us.

Three views of the final judgment:
- Damnationism (eternal punishment)

No such thing as eternal conscious punishment. No one is damned. All are judged on their own choices.

- Annihilationism (destruction of the wicked)

Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. That is all there is.

- Universalism (ultimate redemption)

God has no place for those who want to do things their way. He has allowed mankind to test that out...it doesn’t work. Chaos results, which is why he only wants those who trust him enough to do as he says.
Only the righteous will have a place in his kingdom....we have the choice to be righteous...or not. One way leads to life, the other to death. “Shape up or ship out”....it’s that simple.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

Yes, because none of us should take the law into our own hands....only one person has the right of life and death...and he has not given that right to Christians. Those who make themselves into God’s enemies will reap what they have sown. He has the right to set the rules and to enforce them. Can anyone argue with him on that score?

 

[soberxp]

Does God operate under a lower standard than He holds us to?

[

God hold a higher level standard than we thought of it.

God said to the serpent:3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

But God send Jesus Christ who told us Love your enemies.

But many Christians still don't understand God's standards, and many see no need to love Satan, the enemy.，IT is true.

So the Serpent or Satan end with Lake of fire,bucause many see no need to love Satan, the enemy. I think so.

Since we cannot learn to love our enemies, there is no peace between us and him but war,

Then that's how the story goes ahead, as what the Bible wrote in the Revelation.

So who is the seed of serpent and who is the seed of women?

Who is Satan's angel ? Rebelling against the word of God.

 

[Lizbeth]

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation of humankind,
what would be the value of retribution against humankind? What does it accomplish?

Three views of the final judgment:
- Damnationism (eternal punishment)
- Annihilationism (destruction of the wicked)
- Universalism (ultimate redemption)

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

[

What it accomplishes is the purifying of His creation by removing all the filth and corruption and defilement from it.

Mat 13:38-43
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And He showed His love to the world by the sacrifice of His Son.....that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM should not perish but have eternal life.

Our God is a consuming purifying fire, and those who are not protected from it (hid in the cleft of the Rock) will perish in it. Now is the time of His longsuffering which we are to account as salvation.....this age of grace, whereby man has the opportunity to be saved, but once the Master rises and shuts to the door, the longsuffering of God ends. His Spirit will not strive with man forever.

And He already showed His love to His enemies by dying for them (of which we all were once His enemies)....there is no greater love than that. That WHOSOEVER WOULD BELIEVE ON HIM would not perish but have eternal life. And what does perish mean? As Jesus made mention, it means the destruction of both body and soul in gehenna (fire).

 

[Lambano]

What is the difference between consequences and retribution?

The state of mind of the one administering the punishment.

 

[Lambano]

At least retribution is personal. Using others to demonstrate to the ones you really care about the possible consequences of their undesirable behavior objectifies the one taking the punishment.

 

[Lizbeth]

I suppose follow-up question would be:
What is the difference between consequences and retribution?

It's one thing to step in a bear trap; and quite another to be eaten by the bear.

[

In speaking about the lost perishing, those two things end up as the same thing, because God is ultimately sovereign, so He is the one we are to give glory to and fear. He is a consuming fire and can't deny His nature, though He is restraining and longsuffering for now, in His mercy. He doesn't WANT anyone to perish, He has done everything possible on His end, but sadly many are going to perish anyhow. According to His foreknowledge, we are to account that He has made both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. We are to behold both the goodness and severity of God.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation of humankind,
what would be the value of retribution against humankind? What does it accomplish?

Three views of the final judgment:
- Damnationism (eternal punishment)
- Annihilationism (destruction of the wicked)
- Universalism (ultimate redemption)

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

[

Haven't you ever read in the Scriptures that God is our just Judge? He is love, but he's also justice. Since he is holy (separate from sin) and since his creation rebelled against his rule in their lives, he must punish them because of his perfect justice. However, since he is love, he saves a remnant who trust in and obey him through Jesus' death and resurrection. What does his just judgment of "guilty" against humans "accomplish"? It is his just way of letting them have their own way after they have lived their whole lives without trusting in him. To me, that is what hell is, the absence of God's powerful, saving presence that unbelievers have rejected or ignored all along.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[Wick Stick]

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation of humankind,
what would be the value of retribution against humankind? What does it accomplish?

The idea of fairness dictates that those who do good should receive the fruits of their labor, and those who do bad should reap the consequences of their actions. But that doesn't happen in this life. Evil men prosper by exploiting honest men's labor.

God taking retribution is a balancing of the scales. The unjust, who received MORE than their fair share in life, must suffer reprisal to bring things back to level. Contrariwise, the righteous, who did not receive their just rewards in the here and now... receive their just rewards in the by-and-by.

This seems to be the theme of Matthew 6:

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Now, eternal torment doesn't seem to be a balancing of the scale to me. But I think there's room within a universalist viewpoint for God to take some vengeance. Fairness is at the heart of the universalist argument, and fairness requires some retribution.

 

[Jack]

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation of humankind,
what would be the value of retribution against humankind? What does it accomplish?

Three views of the final judgment:
- Damnationism (eternal punishment)
- Annihilationism (destruction of the wicked)
- Universalism (ultimate redemption)

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

[

Jesus warned us of the everlasting fire. You have the choice to ignore to your peril. Hell will be filled with those who don't believe in Hell. Your opinions do not overrule Jesus!

 

[St. SteVen]

The idea of fairness dictates that those who do good should receive the fruits of their labor, and those who do bad should reap the consequences of their actions. But that doesn't happen in this life. Evil men prosper by exploiting honest men's labor.

God taking retribution is a balancing of the scales. The unjust, who received MORE than their fair share in life, must suffer reprisal to bring things back to level. Contrariwise, the righteous, who did not receive their just rewards in the here and now... receive their just rewards in the by-and-by.

But how could that ever be FAIR?
Our time here is but 80 to 120 years. (or less) The afterlife is forever.

And again, of what ultimate value is retribution?
Even human prisons are called correctional facilities.

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[Jack]

But how could that ever be FAIR?

God doesn't have to ask your permission.

Our time here is but 80 to 120 years. (or less) The afterlife is forever.

And Jesus said the majority of humans will burn in Hell FOREVER!

And again, of what ultimate value is retribution?
Even human prisons are called correctional facilities.

Correctional? LOL Most go right back into prison.

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm trying to imagine how God feels when you say stuff like that about Him. ???

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