Is it possible to lose salvation?

[LoveYeshua]

1 Samuel 28:15-16

This is consistent with the law, where God calls consulting the dead an abomination (Deuteronomy 18:11–12), and with Isaiah 8:19, where God says people should seek Him, not the dead.

 

[nedsk]

Where is the victory, if Christians wait until they die?
May as well die as soon as they're born again ??
Lord Jesus, forgive believers for denying Your divine power. they do not know what they do.

But there is absolutely nothing in Hebrews 12:1 about praying to the cloud of witnesses. All prayer in the bible (with the exception of reports of prayers to false gods, such as, "O Baal, here us!") are addressed to God.

So its tired old argument from silence argument.

 

[nedsk]

Intercession is only biblical when you pray on the behalf of others. What is happening there is a form of idolaltry.

Like osas is heresy

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1 Samuel 28:15-16

That was sin in Sauls life!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Tell me – WHEN did the saints in Heaven get kicked out of the Body of Christ?

James 5:16 says that the prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. The saints in Heaven are FULLY righteous because they have been made perfect in Christ.

Rom. 3:10 states that NOBODY is righteous because ALL have sinned.

Rev. 12:27 says that nothing imperfect can enter Heaven – so everybody in Heaven is PERFECT and perfectly RIGHTEOUS.

Therefore –
James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

They never did. but tell me when did anyone in the bible say it was okay to pray to those who died? or to angles? or to interced to them or petition or entreat them?

James 5 is speaking to living people and not saying to go to those who died and are in heaven. sorry you are wrong. You are making assumptions based on human and not Divine logic.

 

[BreadOfLife]

But there is absolutely nothing in Hebrews 12:1 about praying to the cloud of witnesses. All prayer in the bible (with the exception of reports of prayers to false gods, such as, "O Baal, here us!") are addressed to God.

WRONG.

Acts 27:34 - KJV
"Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you".

Pray simply means "To ASK" or "Entreat" . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

They never did. but tell me when did anyone in the bible say it was okay to pray to those who died? or to angles? or to interced to them or petition or entreat them?

Can YOU show me where the Bible says that we are ONLY yo adhere to what is in the Bible??
What did the Christians do for the first 300 years of the Church when there was NO Canon of Scripture??

The Bible does NOT teach Sola Scriptura. It teaches that Scripture is Authoritative. BUT – ii also teaches that the CHURCH is our final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

James 5 is speaking to living people and not saying to go to those who died and are in heaven. sorry you are wrong. You are making assumptions based on human and not Divine logic.

As I pointed out – Rom. 3:10 states firmly that NOBODY is righteous.
WHO is James talking about when he says the prayer of a righteous person is very powerful?

Rev. 5:8 shows saints in heaven interceding on the behalf of the saints on earth by taking our prayers to God.

 

[Marymog]

Well tell me how you exegetew these verses:

John 10:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Ephesians 1:4-6​

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King James Version​

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4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 2:8-10​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How do you exegesis these two passages: ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

7 to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Curious Mary

 

[Pet]

This is the buffoonery that leads me conclude this is willful ignorance

Ignorance is bliss ;)

 

[Pet]

So its tired old argument from silence argument.

Such wisdom

 

[LoveYeshua]

The Bible tells us that the saints in Heaven absolutely CAN see and hear us:
Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of WITENESSES, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith.

So, because we are surrounded by these witnesses in heaven, we must behave accordingly. They see and hear - NOT on their own, but through Christ.
EVERY ability they have in their glorifies state is through Christ.

In the Parable of the Rich Man - we see that Abraham was able to communicate with the Rich Man in Hades (Luke 16:19-31).
At the Transfiguration - we see that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and conversed with Him (Matt.17:1–8, Mark 9:2–13, Luke 9:28–36)

The “cloud of witnesses” functions as testimony rather than living spectators. Hebrews 12:1 draws its meaning directly from Hebrews 11. The chapter collects the acts of faith by the saints of old and then concludes, “And these all, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise” (Heb. 11:39 NKJV). The writer then moves to the present: “Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…” (Heb. 12:1 NKJV). The tight flow — examples who “obtained a testimony” and now “witness” — makes the most natural sense when we read “witnesses” as those whose lives and recorded testimony speak to us. Hebrews itself already uses the language of the dead “speaking”: “By faith Abel … he being dead still speaks” (Heb. 11:4 NKJV). The point of the picture is ethical and pastoral: because the faith of the saints has been attested and recorded, we are to lay aside hindrances and run with endurance. The emphasis is on the persuasive force of their testimony, not on the metaphysical state of their senses after death.

This understanding coheres with other Scripture that describes death as a state of non-activity or “sleep” until the coming resurrection. Jesus repeatedly uses the sleep-image: when Lazarus died He told the disciples, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may awaken him out of sleep” (John 11:11 NKJV), and then He plainly states the literal fact of death by explaining, “Lazarus is dead” (John 11:14 NKJV). After raising him, Jesus treats death as overturned by resurrection: “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live” (John 11:25 NKJV). In John 5 Jesus sets the future timetable for life and judgment — “the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth” — showing that hearing and arising belong to the resurrection event, not an ongoing post-mortem consciousness (John 5:28–29 NKJV). In short, Jesus locates seeing and hearing the Lord after death at the resurrection, not as an ongoing feature of the intermediate state.

The Old Testament voices the same basic frame. Ecclesiastes says plainly, “For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten” (Eccl. 9:5–6 NKJV). The Psalms lament the silence of the grave: “For in death there is no remembrance of You; in the grave who will give You thanks?” (Ps. 6:5 NKJV) and “Will You work wonders for the dead? or will the dead arise and praise You?” (Ps. 88:10–12 NKJV). Isaiah likewise notes that the dead cannot praise God (Isa. 38:18–19 NKJV). Daniel, however, gives the doctrinal anchor: “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake” at the resurrection — some to everlasting life and some to shame (Dan. 12:2 NKJV). Thus the Old Testament anticipates a future vindicating act of God — resurrection and judgment — and in the meantime treats death as a state in which the dead do not exercise knowledge or praise.

When Gospel passages seem to blur the issue — for example, the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 — we must read them carefully. Luke 16 is an inter-Jewish, rabbinic style story that likely functions as a teaching parable about reversal and divine justice, not as a technical map of the intermediate state. It reflects certain popular ideas and uses vivid imagery; it cannot overrule the clearer teaching of Jesus elsewhere (John 5; John 11) and of the Old Testament prophetic pattern (Daniel 12). The stronger canonical pattern is that the dead “sleep” and await the eschatological awakening.

Putting these strands together gives the best theological synthesis. The “cloud of witnesses” in Hebrews 12 are the faithful named and unnamed in Hebrews 11 whose lives and acts of faith have been recorded and thus bear testimony to God’s promises. Their witness is effective because their lives are presented in Scripture; they “speak” to us through that narrative. They are not presented in Hebrews as present spectators who currently perceive our actions; the argument and vocabulary of the epistle point to the persuasive power of their example, not to ongoing sensory communion. The rest of the canon (Gospels by Jesus, the Old Testament prophets and wisdom literature, and the apostolic testimony that follows the same line) consistently locates seeing and hearing in relation to the resurrection: God will call the dead at the appointed hour, and then they will come forth to judgment or life (John 5:28–29; Dan. 12:2). Until that appointed act, Scripture characterizes death with images of sleep and unconsciousness (John 11; Eccl. 9:5; Ps. 6:5), not with continuous perception or surveillance by the deceased.

Therefore, the most coherent reading — one that honors Hebrews’ immediate context and the broader biblical testimony (prioritizing Jesus’ teaching and the Old Testament prophets) — is this: the “cloud of witnesses” are testimonies of faith that surround and encourage us; they do not function as living spectators who now see and hear our deeds. The dead await the eschatological resurrection and judgment, at which time God will vindicate, reward, or judge. This reading preserves the pastoral thrust of Hebrews (endurance fueled by faithful examples) while remaining faithful to the wider biblical vision of death, sleep, resurrection, and final judgment.

 

[ProDeo]

The dead await the eschatological resurrection and judgment, at which time God will vindicate, reward, or judge. This reading preserves the pastoral thrust of Hebrews (endurance fueled by faithful examples) while remaining faithful to the wider biblical vision of death, sleep, resurrection, and final judgment.

What about -

Luke 23:43 - And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

 

[Behold]

7 to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Reader,

An unforgiven sinner, who is "doing good"...... is not the person Paul is referring to in Romans Chapter 2, as receiving ""eternal life.""

There is no Eternal Life apart from Jesus, as Jesus Himself is Eternal life.

This is why Jesus told you, that "I am the Resurrected and THE LIFE".
And this is why Jesus told you that if you BELIEVE In Him, He will give you "eternal life"...and note that there is no "works" required., as Salvation,= that is "The Gift of Eternal life".......is a Gift.

If you are trying to work your way to heaven, then stop now.......you can't.
If you are trying to work for God and Christ, to try keep yourself saved, then stop now.... you can't.

So, if you are water baptized and religious and you believe that if you do enough good works, for Jesus, but you are not born again, spiritually.......(not by water) but "by my Spirit sayeth the Lord",...... = then you are a religious "do-gooder", who is this one, and you dont even realize it.

John 3:36

Wake up.

 

[amigo de christo]

I didn't say they were I was referring to confession

Yeah Francis was put there for a purpose. What it was I don't know but I have to trust and have faith that Jesus said he would guide the church in the truth. The church may eventually be smaller but it will be stronger than ever.

Popes can't change dogma. Not the same as doctrine but A for effort. I get your point. There's a thing called the remnant church. Just one long he didn't ban the latin mass. My parish and my diocese has latin mass and the they just consecrated a new parish that only does extraordinary order. So don't believe things that aren't true. Bishops are the boss of their dioceses and the pope has little sway but he can remove a bishop but that creates its own problems.

Well if you agree with succession than believing anything else but what that church teaches is fool hearty.

Many are allowed to lead this people in both the protestant and CC realm .
TO DECIEVE THEM ALL

 

[BreadOfLife]

The “cloud of witnesses” functions as testimony rather than living spectators. Hebrews 12:1 draws its meaning directly from Hebrews 11. The chapter collects the acts of faith by the saints of old and then concludes, “And these all, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise” (Heb. 11:39 NKJV). The writer then moves to the present: “Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…” (Heb. 12:1 NKJV). The tight flow — examples who “obtained a testimony” and now “witness” — makes the most natural sense when we read “witnesses” as those whose lives and recorded testimony speak to us. Hebrews itself already uses the language of the dead “speaking”: “By faith Abel … he being dead still speaks” (Heb. 11:4 NKJV). The point of the picture is ethical and pastoral: because the faith of the saints has been attested and recorded, we are to lay aside hindrances and run with endurance. The emphasis is on the persuasive force of their testimony, not on the metaphysical state of their senses after death.

It's BOTH a statement of testimony as well as actual witnesses. The fact the “We are surrounded” attests to this. They’re NOT just some bygone group of faithful servants of God – but living witnesses to the Kingdom.

This understanding coheres with other Scripture that describes death as a state of non-activity or “sleep” until the coming resurrection. Jesus repeatedly uses the sleep-image: when Lazarus died He told the disciples, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may awaken him out of sleep” (John 11:11 NKJV), and then He plainly states the literal fact of death by explaining, “Lazarus is dead” (John 11:14 NKJV). After raising him, Jesus treats death as overturned by resurrection: “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live” (John 11:25 NKJV). In John 5 Jesus sets the future timetable for life and judgment — “the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth” — showing that hearing and arising belong to the resurrection event, not an ongoing post-mortem consciousness (John 5:28–29 NKJV). In short, Jesus locates seeing and hearing the Lord after death at the resurrection, not as an ongoing feature of the intermediate state.

The Old Testament voices the same basic frame. Ecclesiastes says plainly, “For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten” (Eccl. 9:5–6 NKJV). The Psalms lament the silence of the grave: “For in death there is no remembrance of You; in the grave who will give You thanks?” (Ps. 6:5 NKJV) and “Will You work wonders for the dead? or will the dead arise and praise You?” (Ps. 88:10–12 NKJV). Isaiah likewise notes that the dead cannot praise God (Isa. 38:18–19 NKJV). Daniel, however, gives the doctrinal anchor: “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake” at the resurrection — some to everlasting life and some to shame (Dan. 12:2 NKJV). Thus the Old Testament anticipates a future vindicating act of God — resurrection and judgment — and in the meantime treats death as a state in which the dead do not exercise knowledge or praise.

When Gospel passages seem to blur the issue — for example, the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 — we must read them carefully. Luke 16 is an inter-Jewish, rabbinic style story that likely functions as a teaching parable about reversal and divine justice, not as a technical map of the intermediate state. It reflects certain popular ideas and uses vivid imagery; it cannot overrule the clearer teaching of Jesus elsewhere (John 5; John 11) and of the Old Testament prophetic pattern (Daniel 12). The stronger canonical pattern is that the dead “sleep” and await the eschatological awakening.

Putting these strands together gives the best theological synthesis. The “cloud of witnesses” in Hebrews 12 are the faithful named and unnamed in Hebrews 11 whose lives and acts of faith have been recorded and thus bear testimony to God’s promises. Their witness is effective because their lives are presented in Scripture; they “speak” to us through that narrative. They are not presented in Hebrews as present spectators who currently perceive our actions; the argument and vocabulary of the epistle point to the persuasive power of their example, not to ongoing sensory communion. The rest of the canon (Gospels by Jesus, the Old Testament prophets and wisdom literature, and the apostolic testimony that follows the same line) consistently locates seeing and hearing in relation to the resurrection: God will call the dead at the appointed hour, and then they will come forth to judgment or life (John 5:28–29; Dan. 12:2). Until that appointed act, Scripture characterizes death with images of sleep and unconsciousness (John 11; Eccl. 9:5; Ps. 6:5), not with continuous perception or surveillance by the deceased.

Therefore, the most coherent reading — one that honors Hebrews’ immediate context and the broader biblical testimony (prioritizing Jesus’ teaching and the Old Testament prophets) — is this: the “cloud of witnesses” are testimonies of faith that surround and encourage us; they do not function as living spectators who now see and hear our deeds. The dead await the eschatological resurrection and judgment, at which time God will vindicate, reward, or judge. This reading preserves the pastoral thrust of Hebrews (endurance fueled by faithful examples) while remaining faithful to the wider biblical vision of death, sleep, resurrection, and final judgment.

When the Scriptures deal with death as “sleep” and says that they no nothing – this is carnal language, NOT spiritual. It is describing their PHYSICAL state. As I indicated before – we see conscious, disembodied spirits in Heaven crying out for justice in Rev. 6:9-11.

The Resurrection of the Body at the Return of Christ is when we get our glorified bodies – capable of doing everything Jesus did after His Resurrection (1 Thess. 4:15-17).

In the meantime – the spirits in Heaven are not “asleep” or oblivious. Neither the Rich Man or Lazarus were oblivious – NOR were Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration (Luke 9:28-36).

Finally – the mere fact that the Elders in Heaven are taking OUR prayers to God in bowls of incense (Rev. 5:8) illustrates that they ARE, in fact, fully aware of what s going on here on earth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where is the victory, if Christians wait until they die?
May as well die as soon as they're born again ??
Lord Jesus, forgive believers for denying Your divine power. they do not know what they do.

§Was going to let there go because, apparently, there's a misunderstanding beyond recooping.

However I changed my mind for those reading along.

WHEN did I ever say that there is no victory in being Christian?
WHEN did I ever say that we have to wait to die?
WHEN did I ever deny §God's divine power.

And "they do not know what they do".
Are you Jesus hanging on the cross?

Yes. You post like those that believe they are sinless.
If you're going to reply to a post,,,
read it first and try to understand what the poster is saying.

 

[GodsGrace]

Believers of Who?

Who saved YOU Pet?

Is there more than one Savior?

 

[GodsGrace]

Won't we "live" in heaven?

I understand very well about the communion of saints and how we all participate in the Mass, for instance.
There is no "death".

However, we die and if God would so will it...go to heaven.

When we get there, how will we hear anyone's prayers....no matter HOW you want to define prayer.

Do you really believe St. Anthony, for instance, hears all the prayers to him?

Although I may not agree with every Catholic doctrine,,,I can still understand them.
I CANNOT understand how anyone in heaven could possibly hear our prayers.

 

[GodsGrace]

Reader,

An unforgiven sinner, who is "doing good"...... is not the person Paul is referring to in Romans Chapter 2, as receiving ""eternal life.""

There is no Eternal Life apart from Jesus, as Jesus Himself is Eternal life.

This is why Jesus told you, that "I am the Resurrected and THE LIFE".
And this is why Jesus told you that if you BELIEVE In Him, He will give you "eternal life"...and note that there is no "works" required., as Salvation,= that is "The Gift of Eternal life".......is a Gift.

If you are trying to work your way to heaven, then stop now.......you can't.
If you are trying to work for God and Christ, to try keep yourself saved, then stop now.... you can't.

So, if you are water baptized and religious and you believe that if you do enough good works, for Jesus, but you are not born again, spiritually.......(not by water) but "by my Spirit sayeth the Lord",...... = then you are a religious "do-gooder", who is this one, and you dont even realize it.

John 3:36

Wake up.

You want to use John 3.36 to back up your statements??

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


Of course, you must be one of those that thinks it's translated NOT BELIEVE.....

Sorry Behold, but in the language that was used to write the NT.....
DISBELIEVE and DISOBEY mean exactly the same.

 

[GodsGrace]

@nedsk
I checked.
HOW one receives communion is not a doctrine.
Thus, we can do as we want.
Also, they (priests and extraord ministers) feel that taking the host in the hand is more hygienic.
Although, this was never said to me by a priest.
(info from Deacon).