Did Jesus say that adultery is grounds for divorce? - Nope.
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 22:
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
Read full chapter
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
Read full chapter
soberxp
Well-Known Member
My understanding is the seed of serpent and seed of women, They all represent the human race
And in my research, there are two cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, which may represent the love between men and women.As crazy as it sounds, Two cherubim in love, but I'm not surprised.
Do angels have testicles?
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
That verse regarding the curse of the seeds is the foundation of what is known as the serpent seed doctrine.
It's labeled a heresy , yet it is a fascinating story.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The prophesy in Genesis 3:15 has been debated throughout the ages.....but my brotherhood have a different take on that interpretation for a number of reasons. I am not one to just accept things at face value, I dig for details that will give added meaning to what is currently either accepted or debated....
The prophecy appears in the first book of the Bible. But in one way or another, all the other books of the Bible relate to it. Just as the spine of a printed book binds all the pages together, the words recorded at Genesis 3:15, bind the content of every book of the Bible into one united message, namely, that a Deliverer would be sent to destroy the Devil and all his wicked followers.
The characters in the Genesis account include a “serpent,” the “offspring” of the serpent, a “woman,” and the “offspring” of the woman. The Bible helps us to identify each of them. They are not really obvious from the few words of the prophesy itself, but a little digging unravels the mystery.
The Bible often uses the term “offspring” in a figurative sense....referring to those who think and act like their symbolic father. So the offspring of the serpent is made up of spirit creatures and humans who, like satan, resist God and oppose His people. That would include the angels who abandoned their assignments in heaven in Noah’s day, as well as wicked humans who behave like their father the Devil even to this day. (Gen 6:1-2; John 8:44; 1 John 5:19 and Jude 1:6)
A literal serpent’s offspring wouldn’t work in this scenario. So any or all who act like that original serpent are considered his “offspring”....like Jesus said of the Pharisees. Their father was the devil.
So who is the woman? The mystery deepens with her identity which is not really revealed until Revelation.
The woman cannot be Eve because the woman’s seed “came down from heaven”....Jesus is not a son of Adam and Eve...he is the son of God. So the woman from whom he came is heavenly, not earthly. So, this is a heavenly woman.
The seed of this woman and the nation that produced him was initially Israel, the ones from whom Messiah was prophesied to come. He could not be a mere human because he had to crush the head of the serpent resulting in his annihilation along with his seed.
The apostle Paul identified the ones who form part of the woman’s seed.....he wrote...
“If you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.” (Gal 3:28-29) Christians, as the seed of the woman, taught by the primary seed personally, inherited what was promised to natural Israel, but who lost their place due to continued disobedience. ( Matt 21:43, 45)
When God anoints a Christian with holy spirit, that person becomes part of the offspring of the woman. So the offspring is made up of Jesus Christ and his elect, those who will rule with him as “kings and priests” in the heavenly kingdom. (Rev 20:6) John is shown a powerful angel throwing satan into the abyss for a thousand years whilst the Kingdom arrangement brings the redeemed human race back into reconciliation with their Creator....after that, he is released for “a little while” for one final test, and then he is dispatched forever! (Rev 20:1-3)
The devil has already dealt Jesus a “heel” wound from which he recovered, but the fatal “head” wound due the serpent, is yet to come.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
To an extent, they do, but the “offspring” of both will reap what they have sown....good and bad.
Actually, since cherubim are angels placed in guardianship positions, they represent Jehovah’s guardianship over the arc’s contents. No one was permitted to see the arc because it was contained in the Most Holy part of the tabernacle. Even when it was being transported, it was covered, and no one was permitted to touch it. It was carried on poles inserted into rings along its sides. And it could only be carried by the priests.
If you recall, it was cherubs who guarded the way back into the garden of Eden after the eviction of Adam and his wife, making sure that no one gained access to the tree of life. (Gen 3:22-24)
Those cherubs had nothing to do with representing a love that was not part of their creation.
Apparently the ones who materialized in Noah’s day did...they fathered the Nephilim, whom God destroyed in the flood....they had no right to live, and Christ’s future sacrifice would not have covered them as they were not children of Adam. Angels are created not reproduced.
Jesus was “the last Adam” because he atoned for what the first Adam did.
St. SteVen said:
What God has put together, let no person put asunder.
Adultery in grounds for forgiveness.
I think the church has misunderstood Jesus in this matter.
Jesus begins the passage by saying... (no divorce)
Mark 10:9 NIV
Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
[
What God has put together, let no person put asunder.
Adultery in grounds for forgiveness.
This is the reason for this topic.
I think the church has misunderstood Jesus in this matter.
Jesus begins the passage by saying... (no divorce)
Mark 10:9 NIV
Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
[
Good question.
Remember, the Holy Spirit "overshadowed" Mary the mother of Jesus. (whatever that means)
Genesis 6:4 NIV
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—
when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them.
They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
[
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Great point.
Looking at ancient Sumerian glyphs they depict giant standing lizards,rememiscient of Komodo Dragons,wearing robes and adornments.
They also in Cuneiform writings referred to Annunaki and Nephilim. The watchers,Igig and more.
Our Genesis is like their origin story Enuma Elish. Theirs was first.
I don’t know if it has already been discussed in this thread but … what did Jesus mean by “because your hearts were hard”?
Is it that their hearts were hard towards their wives, so God allowed divorce because of their hard hearts? All for the sake of how to handle a hard marriage? Or were their hearts hard towards God. The Word speaks of the different types of ground/heart; the stony heart/ground continues for a season but becomes offended and turns away. John 6:65-67 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [66] From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. [67] Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will you also go away?
What of 2 Timothy 2:2-5 And the things that you have heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit you to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also(does this not touch on what is being discussed “commit you to faithful men”, example: the husband of one wife) . [3] You therefore endure hardness(of heart), as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. [4] No man that wars entangles himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. [5] And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
Remember; Mark 8:17 And when Jesus knew it, he said unto them, Why reason you, because you have no bread? perceive you not yet, neither understand? have you your heart yet hardened?
Note that it was MOSES, not God that allowed divorce.
Also remember that at that time, women, even wives, were the physical property of their husbands.
They could divorce them for any reason.
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There is a lot of important verses around it but I only quoted these in regard to the note it was Moses, not God that allowed divorce.
Note: Moses also put a vail over his face…
2 Corinthians 3:13-15 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: [14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. [15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
^what does that have to do with divorce and adultery and because their hearts were hardened? Romans 7:1 Know you not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?> don’t think of the literal women but how as long as one is bound to the law …if he is married to another he is called an adulterer. (Not the husband of one wife). As long as he lives and is bound under the law wherein they were kept until Him who(the Heir) was to come is revealed (Christ)
(1 Corinthians 8:11-13 And through your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? [12] But when you sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. [13] Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world stands, lest I make my brother to offend.) <other versions say something different from “while the world stands” but to me it connects to if you are going to serve the law then keep all of it, and fail in no point. You can’t serve mammon and God?
If she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4] Wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
What does the vail being removed by the circumcision of Christ…
And called no more an adulterous woman have to do with one another…however you are not born of the bondwoman but the Free? To bring forth fruit unto God? How can one be no more an adulterous woman, having been born of God without the circumcision of Christ, made without hands?
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Do angels have testicles? Personally (Imo) I don’t think that proves they had testicles. We think sex is the only way to go in, enter in to plant their seed. Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
So that they “fathered” the Nephilim.(Tyrants) Jesus spoke of the enemy of His Father as the father of lies. Are testicles needed to sow “lies” or “falsehoods”? Sex doesn’t have to happen, testicles don’t have to be present to plant the seed spoken of in the parable of the sower and the seed. There were giants (Tyrants) in those days could also be who is spoken of here: Numbers 13:28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there. (Ephesians For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;)
Numbers 13:31-33 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. [32] And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eats up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature(Tyrants). [33] And there we saw the giants(Tyrants), the sons of Anak, which come of (birth)the giants(Tyrants): and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. (Is this literally those giants see us as very, very small and low men to the ground men?)
(Imo) takeaway from the above is first, if one side which is strong are “giants” literally as we draw pictures of Goliath…then the smaller side must be literal “grasshoppers”. For the giants see them as grasshoppers.
Second takeaway is all that describes “giants”
They are men of high and great “statue”. We think in height of how tall the men are. Because Hollywood makes movies about really tall men, robust and “strong”. But “stature” can be exactly what most of the word speaks of as men in elevated, lifted up higher than God stature. As when Jesus spoke of they are those who love the highest seats. For example the pope is elevated to a high stature. See, his high stature!
These in the land that intimidate and are frightening like when Jesus warned “fear not what men can do unto you”…men who appear untouchable, “stronger than we”. They are those that eat up the inhabitants of the land. Are they giants that eat(the bones) of men? New Testament speaks of eating up and consuming one another… “be careful you don’t devour one another.”
Third, Jesus speaks of to fear not for He who is in you, is stronger than him who is in the world. Are their giants in the world? Are there men of high stature? Tyrants?
No …testicles are not needed to father children of the devil. It’s planting a false (seed) gospel. It’s spreading seed that is not men’s sperm but bears children all, sin unto death. If there were giants in those days. Which is not “men of high stature” “strong” “who devour the inhabitants of the land” but instead it’s literal “Goliath’s” with testicles like the giant from Jack and the bean stalk….then there must be grasshopper men also. (Imo) we miss the whole message behind Jesus indeed was up against Giants in His days…they took Him and mocked “His stature”.
I get that is a long post and will probably be ignored as insane. But what is insane?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You raise some interesting points here, so let’s examine them....
What is said about the ”sons of God” who came in to the daughters of men?
Jude 6, 7 mentions the “angels who...left their proper dwelling” in Noah’s day.
“And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” (ESV)
So these angels “likewise” (as in Sodom), carried on “unnatural” sex with human women and produced these gigantic offspring who had no right to live.
Gen 6:1,2,4...ESV...
“When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. . . . .The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.”
These angelic ‘sons of God’ had relations with the attractive “daughters of men”....this is not speaking about ordinary marital relationships, but extraordinary relationships that produced offspring that were freakish...gigantic bullies, whose violent behavior caused a lot of stress to earth’s inhabitants. The Nephilim were not said to produce children themselves, but only the materialized angels who took any woman they wanted to have sex with them......this was a real perversion for spirit beings who are not designed for reproduction. There are pleasures of the flesh that angels were not meant to experience, but some did experience eating and drinking.
We have the Bible’s record of faithful angels materializing human form when they were sent as messengers to God’s earthly servants. These ate and drank what was presented to them, so for all intents and purposes they functioned as humans. Three angels appeared to Abraham at Mamre were given a banquet....one spoke as God’s representative, whilst the other two went on to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family before God brought destruction on the cities. (Gen 18)
So yes...apparently angels can have testicles..... but they are not supposed to.
When we see the mention of “giants” again after the flood...these cannot be the same giants as existed in Noah’s day because all living, breathing creatures outside of the ark perished. (Gen 7:21-23) Only Noah and his family were alive to repopulate the earth. We see from Jude that the errant father’s of the Nephilim were forced back into the spirit realm, where they were restrained by God, because the demons were never able to materialized again.
The sons of Anak were simply a race of very tall individuals. The Massai tribe in Africa, are also a race of very tall individuals...it’s in their genetics. After the flood we see that legends were passed on about that period because there are flood stories in every culture....each embellished in their own way.
The cowardly Israelites were simply trying to find excuses not to go up against the daunting inhabitants of the Promised Land, as if men of tall stature were somehow more powerful than their God!
Goliath was also said to be a “giant”.....some 9’.5“ tall. There is no suggestion that he and his equally tall brother were Nephilim. We have people today who are unusually tall because of an abnormality in their growth hormones. Gigantism is a medical condition.
So after an examination of other Bible accounts, I believe that the question is answered quite clearly.
What do you think?
I appreciate your willingness to answer with care. You always do. No, to me it’s not clear. I’ll do my best to give you legitimate reasons as to why I see it differently, so at least you know I’m not trying to make stuff up for the sole purpose to go against the grain.
Let’s read it in the lexicon.
And the angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode He kept in eternal bonds for the judgement of the great day, Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they indulge in gross immorality and went after strange flesh as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Note we add that this is solely pertaining to sex. Sex isn’t there but added to define the ‘gross immorality’ which excludes (I think) the intended purpose. Instead “sex” guts the heart of what is to go after ‘strange flesh’. I could quote for you countless verses pertaining to strange flesh …including they go after their idols they make with their hands, offering things on the altar which shouldn’t be offered. Notice we reduced it too …having sex with ‘strange flesh’. If we can coin ‘since they indulge in gross immorality’ as pertaining to a sexual act then those indulging in gross immorality themselves, can exclude themselves as those who do those things. So let’s add “sex” so we can point to the homosexuals as those who go after ‘strange flesh’ defiling themselves among themselves. Even the women have sex with one another!
See…they carried on “unnatural” sex. This is the heart of why I think this is very misleading. Paul speaks of having only Timothy to send who is likeminded and will “naturally” care for their state. Then immediately speaks of their going after the way of Balaam when he defines it as “For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s. Philippians 2:20-21
Note we have taken it to say they carried on unnatural sex …instead of they carried on without natural affection among themselves …going after ‘strange flesh’ seeking their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s. One is a far cry “unnatural sex” from: I have no one to send to you except Timothy who will “naturally care” for your state. 2 Timothy 3:2-5 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, [3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, [4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; [5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
How did Paul point to the way of Balaam by saying “For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s in Philippians 2:20-21. Paul says the same as
They feast with you without fear, feeding themselves. Autumn trees without fruit
, doubly dead, unrooted. Wild waves of the sea casting up their own shame like foam …wandering stars for whom the black darkness (blind and drunk, stumbling in the darkness) has been reserved forever.
^ these who left their first estate had “unnatural sex”? then why does Jude go on to describe the unnatural way they are among you while you feast, feeding themselves. Same as Paul spoke of those feeding themselves and not seeking the things that are Jesus Christ’s? Let’s not forget the mention of like Cain; Cain murdered his brother. Revisiting Jude “just like Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh …these men, also defile the flesh and reject authority
, and revile angelic majesties(slander, to speak lightly and profaning of sacred things) …but these men revile the things which they do not understand and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals by these things they are destroyed. Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for Pay!
It doesn’t harp on sex …but speaks of the unnatural way they don’t care for the things of Christ’s.
I can’t stress enough what Paul said concerning “without natural affection” having no other to send who will naturally care for you is more significant to gross immorality that is unnatural. But as long as mankind points to unnatural sex as the intended topic from God, then they don’t have to ever acknowledge or examine what is it to indulge in gross immorality; without natural affection/ unnatural. I do think I could make a strong case for “going after strange flesh” is seeking not the things that are Jesus Christ.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Thank you too for your own thoughtful reply.
The Greek word used there for “gross immorality” is “ekporneuō” it is used only once, and it carries the meaning of...
“to go a whoring”, "give one's self over to fornication"......
You can see that it is a form of the word “porneia” which is used elsewhere in the Scriptures to indicate sexual immorality of any description.
The words “strange flesh” (“heteros”) carry the meaning of...
- “another: i.e. one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different”
In other Scripture it is also used for “other” or “different”....so the “flesh” of the one committing the act is different to that of the women who were raped.....and it is why their offspring were grotesque.
I don’t think “sex” was added, but in reference to Sodom and Gomorrah, the inhabitants of those cities were on God’s radar because of the grossness of their perversion. Any male that came into the city was fair game for gang rape....even angels. This is why Lot offered his daughters as a distraction....he knew that they were not interested in sex with women.
God himself used sexual immorality to describe the unfaithfulness of his people. It was an infidelity that he could not abide, to see his nation go after the worship of foreign gods, none of which even existed or had done a single thing for them. It is a fitting illustration, but in the case of the angels who did not keep to their proper abode, we can take from that they left heaven to materialize on earth to enjoy what angels could not....the pleasures of the flesh, which still continue to undermine the human race.
Are we to assume then that Sodom and Gomorrah were just treating others unkindly? That they had “no natural affection” for one another? Why then did God single them out for utter destruction, if they were just like all the other nations?
Why did God bring about a global flood to address what happened in Noah’s day? Pretty drastic measures to address something that was seen in every nation on earth that have ever existed.....
These were no ordinary events, but addressed extraordinary circumstances that arose out of the abuse of free will....both in heaven and on earth. God had to deal with this issue in both realms so that he could create precedents for the future......with that record established, showing his children the dire results of disobedience, he can then set the bar for the behavior of all his children in the future, so that a challenge to his Sovereignty can never happen again. What a wonderful guarantee!
Infidelity doesn’t have to always mean literal sex.....but these false Christians were emulating the unfaithful ones of old. Paul was highlighting that what appeared on the surface, was not what was below the surface.
They had bad motives.....selfish ones and this same self-centeredness is at the heart of all sin, just as it was in the beginning. Self interest motivated all three rebels to disobey their God.
Even sexual sin is a form of selfishness.
God’s law to Israel detailed all the kinds of sexual sin that God abhorred. So sexual sin was a big issue because life itself was produced in that process....or it was meant to.....it was something sacred to the Creator.
Sex without reproduction was not sanctioned....meaning that same sex unions, or bestiality were a perversion that he would not tolerate. Scriptural marriage was to be honorable, between a man and a woman, with a view to producing their own family. That was the “natural” way he designed us.
Paul said.....”But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.” (2 Tim 3:1-5)
How true his words are, as we see all of the above, manifesting on a global scale!
Jesus said that in this time of the end, “the love of the greater number would grow cold”.....love of neighbor has almost disappeared in today’s world, along with love of God......the two greatest Commandments. But like the days of Noah, (Matt 24:37-39) violence and immorality are rife at a time in history that allows no room for such ignorant behavior. In civilized society, reason and intelligence should govern human conduct, but all we see is the same thing repeated time and again in every generation.
Humans have never learned what God has been trying to demonstrate to them all this time....that humans cannot rule other humans, because it always corrupts them. We are designed to be ruled by an incorruptible God, who will take his place again, when he has fulfilled his purpose to cleanse the earth of all who want to disobey him, and restore peace to all life upon it. (Rev 21:2-4)
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When I was married, part of what I vowed to my wife was, "for better or for worse, til death do us part". I meant that.
Do you have the right to break your vows? No one can stop you. But is that what you are to do? I don't think so!
Much love!
"Strange flesh" is from "heteros", "of a different kind", that is, human flesh and another kind of flesh, the flesh of angels.
1 Corinthians 15:39-40 KJV
39) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
Much love!
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