Where did the Bible come from? - Shot out of a canon

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I am no expert in the teachings of the early church fathers (till AD ~300) but I can not mention any of them being a prophet. They (like us) were all too busy studying the available manuscripts and find consensus.
I see a very different picture. I see the fathers getting revelations as they dream dreams, as the young men and women see visions and prophesy through the Spirit Who poured on them.

Yes with past documented revelations as well that were given to Abraham, Moses, David, Joel and many others.
 

St. SteVen

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The purpose of this topical thread
is to discuss where the Bible came from.


I keep encountering forum members that seem to have no clue, or at least some misconceptions
about the origins, history, issues and substance of the scriptures.

I invite others to share their knowledge on the subject. The link below is the best thing I have read on the subject.
I plan to post a few quotes from it. Please offer your own. Thanks.

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

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Jack

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The purpose of this topical thread
is to discuss where the Bible came from.


I keep encountering forum members that seem to have no clue, or at least some misconceptions
about the origins, history, issues and substance of the scriptures.

I invite others to share their knowledge on the subject. The link below is the best thing I have read on the subject.
I plan to post a few quotes from it. Please offer your own. Thanks.

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

[
It came from God! It's being fulfilled right under your nose!
 

Aunty Jane

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My goodness @St. SteVen That was quite a novel! And reading through it was rather arduous.....but one thing remains in spite of all the rhetoric and scholarly opinions.....we have to ask then, is the Bible really the “word of God”?...and if so, what part did his powerful spirit play in its transmission down to our day? If “all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial” for allowing its readers to get a handle on the truth, and to be prepared to defend our faith to others, how reliable are its teachings, fundamentally? (2 Tim 3:16-17)

If we believe that God has the power to create the Universe, then surely he has the power to preserve his own instruction manual to his human servants. What is being debated here? Isn’t that the point? Did God preserve his instructions to his worshippers, with the background of his relationship with one nation who alone were given his laws and were under obligation by birth to uphold them? What was the point of all that recording if God was just going to allow men to mess it up?

If he did inspire the Bible writers, then the solid foundation on which God’s instructions are based, would stand as strongly today as they always have in spite of the flaws in the human scribes that were used by a corrupted church to transmit his instructions down through history. The truth shines through all the accusations and supposed flaws in transmission....because it is the truth.

God will “draw” people to that truth in spite of anything humans might do under the devil’s influence to alter it. (John 6:44; 65) No one can come to the son without an invitation from his Father.....that is the guarantee that allows God to choose us, whilst we are trying to prove that we are choosing him in all that confusion. Only God can identify the ‘diamond’ in a huge pile of ‘broken glass’.....he knows what we do not, and his spirit can transcend any and all deceptions put up by his adversary to mask his truth.
 

St. SteVen

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My goodness @St. SteVen That was quite a novel! And reading through it was rather arduous.....but one thing remains in spite of all the rhetoric and scholarly opinions.....we have to ask then, is the Bible really the “word of God”?...and if so, what part did his powerful spirit play in its transmission down to our day? If “all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial” for allowing its readers to get a handle on the truth, and to be prepared to defend our faith to others, how reliable are its teachings, fundamentally? (2 Tim 3:16-17)

If we believe that God has the power to create the Universe, then surely he has the power to preserve his own instruction manual to his human servants. What is being debated here? Isn’t that the point? Did God preserve his instructions to his worshippers, with the background of his relationship with one nation who alone were given his laws and were under obligation by birth to uphold them? What was the point of all that recording if God was just going to allow men to mess it up?

If he did inspire the Bible writers, then the solid foundation on which God’s instructions are based, would stand as strongly today as they always have in spite of the flaws in the human scribes that were used by a corrupted church to transmit his instructions down through history. The truth shines through all the accusations and supposed flaws in transmission....because it is the truth.

God will “draw” people to that truth in spite of anything humans might do under the devil’s influence to alter it. (John 6:44; 65) No one can come to the son without an invitation from his Father.....that is the guarantee that allows God to choose us, whilst we are trying to prove that we are choosing him in all that confusion. Only God can identify the ‘diamond’ in a huge pile of ‘broken glass’.....he knows what we do not, and his spirit can transcend any and all deceptions put up by his adversary to mask his truth.
Thanks for taking the time to read through the "novel". There is a wealth of information there.

For me, questions abound. I don't accept the claims made by most Christians about the Bible.
The novel was written from a very conservative POV. I don't give as much credit to the veracity of the Bible that they do.

Both the OT and NT were written versions of an oral tradition. The same is true of the Koran.
The idea was to get something in writing before the bearers of the oral tradition passed away.
There is a lot of duplication in the synoptic gospels. And serious questions about their authorship.

I'm not convinced that God wanted us to have a Bible. I think it was man's idea.

Paul's letters seem more solid. The Revelation is a train wreck.

Anyway...

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Aunty Jane

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Thanks for taking the time to read through the "novel". There is a wealth of information there.

For me, questions abound. I don't accept the claims made by most Christians about the Bible.
The novel was written from a very conservative POV. I don't give as much credit to the veracity of the Bible that they do.

Both the OT and NT were written versions of an oral tradition. The same is true of the Koran.
The idea was to get something in writing before the bearers of the oral tradition passed away.
There is a lot of duplication in the synoptic gospels. And serious questions about their authorship.

I'm not convinced that God wanted us to have a Bible. I think it was man's idea.

Paul's letters seem more solid. The Revelation is a train wreck.

Anyway...
So the questions remain only in the minds of the doubters….

James 1:6-8 speaks to the doubters….those asking God for direction….
6  But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7  In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah; 8  he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.”

But to those who really study what God has had written down by his human penmen, over a very long period of time in one harmonious story from Genesis to Revelation (impossible if it was just the work of men) the framework stands uncorrupted….it is the ‘cosmetic‘ things that cause the doubts and arguments. Nothing in the framework is unstable.

As for Revelation being “a train wreck” all of God’s genuine worshippers are on another track altogether…..that train wreck doesn’t affect them because they have an understanding of the Revelation as it relates to the days we are now enduring.

So the big pillars of the framework remain….
There is a grand Creator…whose works show him to be of superior intelligence and power compared to anything puny humans can accomplish.

He had a purpose to his material creation that seem to be lost on those who are convinced that they are going to heaven, when that was never even suggested as a destination for man until Christ came to explain what the Kingdom was…how it “comes”…who will be its administrators….and what that means for the elect….and the non-elect alike.

The Kingdom will “come”, but not in the way most “Christians” are expecting….it will result in God’s will being “done on earth as it is in heaven”….another aspect that is completely lost in Christendom’s divided church system. It seem as if the earth and God’s purpose for it got completely lost on those who were supposed to teach Bible truth to their charges…..instead we got a mangled story that makes no sense and a god who is a fiend and wants to terrorize people forever in a hell of torment. How messed up is that?!
 
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St. SteVen

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So the questions remain only in the minds of the doubters….
I see this as a HUGE problem in Christianity. (and whatever you call yourself)

- Belief without question = heaven (or the new earth) ???
- Unbelief = hell (or nonexistence)

There is no room for questions by those who DON'T want to be fixed.

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St. SteVen

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New topic


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Aunty Jane

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I see this as a HUGE problem in Christianity. (and whatever you call yourself)

- Belief without question = heaven (or the new earth) ???
Not even close. Where does “belief” come from? What is “faith”?
The Bible itself gives us a definition....
Heb 11:1...
“Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen.”
IOW, we have to know the God we serve and why he put us here. If he had the power to create the Universe, then what power does he lack? If the Bible is God’s word (2 Tim 3:16-17)....and I believe that it is, then, in his wisdom he made sure that it wasn’t the result of “Chinese whispers”......his powerful spirit can do whatever he directs to accomplish his will. His message to the human race cannot be altered.

Those who “know the only true God” (John 17:3) because they see him in every aspect of his creation, and can also see that he does nothing without a purpose, can be certain then, that through his word he informs us about why we are we here, undergoing all these trials. There will be no unanswered questions. If we have unanswered questions then we don’t have the truth...and we don’t really know God.

You see SS, the basics are the fundamental ingredients of faith and belief....the foundation on which we base our faith. If the foundation is faulty, then no matter what you build on it, it is doomed to fail.
If we have built our beliefs on what Christendom teaches about God, then we will have a million unanswered questions....the devil will see to that......
What did Paul say about the unbelievers?

2 Cor 4:3-4....
“If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4  among whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”

If what people read in the Scriptures is “veiled” or obscure, then there is a reason....the one who is served by “unbelievers” (which includes rejectors of truth who might identify as “Christians”) have had their ‘minds blinded’.....this is more that just a lack of sight.....the very centre of all thought processes has been disengaged....rendered useless. Nothing they try to work out on their own results in one logical truth shared by all. Christ has been carved up into so many pieces that his body is scattered all over the place. Of what use is that situation to anyone? (1 Cor 1:10) God’s spirit unites his people...it does not divide them by making the truth ambiguous.....”the god of this world” does that.

I again refer to Jesus’ words in John 6:44; 65.....we all know that ‘no one can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ’, who is the “image of God”.....an “image” is a reflection of something......so, Jesus is the exact representation of his Father in human form. He said that everything he taught was from his Father, not from himself. (John 7:14-16) And no one can come to the son without an invitation from his Father......think about that for a moment. Who is choosing who?

So what is the basis for what you believe? How do you choose your beliefs? Many just go to the great celestial supermarket and put their chosen beliefs in their basket, creating their very own religion. Of what use is that?
- Unbelief = hell (or nonexistence)
If God has a purpose for our mortal human existence, then it will be achieved. (Isa 55:11) He created humankind to live on a carefully prepared planet.....and there was not a single mention of death except as a penalty for disobedience. So for what purpose did God originally create us?

Out of all the creatures he put here to share life with us....only humans were endowed with his intellect and logic....and free will.
We also have his appreciation for beauty and order....but we were not designed to rule ourselves. The only command in the garden that would result in death, was disobedience....meaning that the Creator had the right as Sovereign Ruler, to set the limits of our free will.

There was only one way to die.....so for his free willed creation both in heaven and on earth, all were under obligation to obey the Creator as one who knows what is best for us.

The first defector was not human, and he planted seeds of doubt in the woman, hoping that she would persuade her husband to join her, thus separating the humans from their God so that he could gain their worship for himself. He was the one who wanted to “be like God”....

Jehovah, being the reader of hearts, (not just minds) knows his children like no other. So he not only knows what we think, but what motivates us to say and do what we do.

He has nothing to do with our birth personally, but looks with interest at what his human creation are doing in their present circumstances, so far removed from what he purposed for them....but free will had limits and disobedience had penalties. This is a time of testing, where the devil was given a free hand to test out the human race, like satan tested Job. Jehovah can do this because he can reverse everything the devil has done, and even erase the memory of it. (Isa 65:17; 20-25)

God tried to tell them that obedience was the best course, but they did not listen, so there was no choice but to show them what it would result in by first hand experience, thereby creating precedents for all eternity so that this could never happen again. Hard lessons for us, and for his heavenly family, but it would stop any future rebel from even starting down the wrong track again. All the issues of obedience to our Sovereign Lord are now legally established.....so that he can get on with what he purposed in the beginning, with eternity protected from any future disobedience.
There is no room for questions by those who DON'T want to be fixed.
And there you have the problem expressed in your own words....”no room for questions by those who DON'T want to be fixed.” IOW, there is no room for those who don’t get the answers they want to the questions they ask....and they have no desire to be “fixed” into a belief system in which they have no faith....

Who has the right to dictate the terms of our existence, more than our Creator?
Paul again hits the nail on the head....
Heb 11:6...
“...without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.”

What do you get out of Paul’s words? Is faith something we are born with? Is it something that just drops in out of the blue because we attended a church service? How do we attain faith?
I believe that faith like a wall that we build brick by brick, by taking in all of what the Bible teaches us, especially in the words of God’s son...? He shows us the Father and tells us how to please him. So how can we be more Christ-like? Just follow his lead and understand why Christianity today is so hopelessly divided.

Who is the sower of the “weeds” and what hope is there that we will find the “wheat” among those “weeds”?
Both are “growing together until the harvest”....so what will the harvest result in?

Read the account in Matt 13:24-30; 36-42....and tell me what you understand Jesus to be saying.
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
There is no room for questions by those who DON'T want to be fixed.
And there you have the problem expressed in your own words....”no room for questions by those who DON'T want to be fixed.” IOW, there is no room for those who don’t get the answers they want to the questions they ask....and they have no desire to be “fixed” into a belief system in which they have no faith....
What's the alternative?

1755555374751.jpeg

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Aunty Jane

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St. SteVen said:
There is no room for questions by those who DON'T want to be fixed.

What's the alternative?

View attachment 68579

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No....it’s not a silencing of legitimate questions.....but a silencing of illegitimate answers.

It’s God’s way or the highway...we choose. God is the one who gave us life and he alone has the right to dictate the terms....we are not in a position to dictate to our Creator.....if we think we have that right he will soon show us that we were dead wrong.

He has no place in his kingdom for those who want to question his Sovereignty....isn’t that what got us into this mess in the first place...?
 

St. SteVen

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No....it’s not a silencing of legitimate questions.....but a silencing of illegitimate answers.

It’s God’s way or the highway...we choose. God is the one who gave us life and he alone has the right to dictate the terms....we are not in a position to dictate to our Creator.....if we think we have that right he will soon show us that we were dead wrong.

He has no place in his kingdom for those who want to question his Sovereignty....isn’t that what got us into this mess in the first place...?
It's not God I am questioning. It is the institutional church and their claims.
(some of which you hold)

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Aunty Jane

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It's not God I am questioning.
If you don’t believe what is in the Bible then rejecting his word is questioning God. It is his only communication with us. What you have to question is the interpretation….and that can take us down some deep rabbit holes.
I don’t mind going down the holes as long as they have an exit…..and sometimes that means backing out and going back to the light.
It is the institutional church and their claims.
(some of which you hold)
What beliefs held by the churches, do you think are not backed up by the Bible? Or is it that they have promoted what they imagine the Bible says, when it says no such thing? (Hell comes under that category) How do we tell the difference between bad translation and outright lies? Why is that even a legitimate question?

As far as JW’s are concerned we have thrown out most, if not all that the institutional churches have taught for as long as they have been in existence. Most of what is accepted as “Christian” doctrine is simply a rebranded piece of paganism……so unless you know what you are reading, as it relates to the rest of the Scriptures, you can get lost real quick.

Once you have the big picture, it’s obvious where all the pieces all fit.
Like the identification of counterfeit bank notes…you don’t have to know what every counterfeit looks like…you just have to know what the original looks like…..and the fakes become obvious.

Do you have a big picture at all SS?
 

ProDeo

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In a nutshell, massive reading, hardly examples of alleged bad translations / copy errors / alleged additions.
The purpose of this topical thread
is to discuss where the Bible came from.


I keep encountering forum members that seem to have no clue, or at least some misconceptions
about the origins, history, issues and substance of the scriptures.

I invite others to share their knowledge on the subject. The link below is the best thing I have read on the subject.
I plan to post a few quotes from it. Please offer your own. Thanks.

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

[

In a nutshell, massive reading, hardly examples of alleged bad translations / copy errors / alleged additions.
 
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ProDeo

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If you don’t believe what is in the Bible then rejecting his word is questioning God.

I am raised in that belief also, I no longer believe that. Scripture is written by men, Scripture is composed by men. 1700 years ago it was decided by men, this is the Holy Bible, the Canon. There wasn't a voice from heaven -> “This is my beloved WORD, with whom I am well pleased.” On the contrary there has been, -- and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” -- Matt 3:17

That's the only thing that matters, the in-depth story about Jesus, fits seamlessly. What we have (despite its errors) is all we need.
 

St. SteVen

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In a nutshell, massive reading, hardly examples of alleged bad translations / copy errors / alleged additions.


In a nutshell, massive reading, hardly examples of alleged bad translations / copy errors / alleged additions.
Thanks for taking the time to read through that.
The article has a very strong conservative bias.
The same information can be used to give one pause.

- We don't have the original autographs. (manuscripts)
- We only have copies of copies of copies...
- The copies have textual variants and additions.
- Translators had to decide what was most original or most "authorized". (majority text)
- Translator bias (and misunderstanding) is obvious. (or arguable)

Front and back of the oldest fragment of the Gospel of John.

1714771470670.jpeg


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ProDeo

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Thanks for taking the time to read through that.
The article has a very strong conservative bias.
The same information can be used to give one pause.

- We don't have the original autographs. (manuscripts)
- We only have copies of copies of copies...
- The copies have textual variants and additions.
- Translators had to decide what was most original or most "authorized". (majority text)
- Translator bias (and misunderstanding) is obvious. (or arguable)

Front and back of the oldest fragment of the Gospel of John.

1714771470670.jpeg


[

I am aware of all of that, and more. It was a shocking experience, I shed some tears and had to reinvent my faith in the Bible.
 
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Aunty Jane

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The church lied to us about it.
Trust in God, nothing else.
Don’t we all have to take a pause and see how many lies the church has taught over the centuries that they have imposed their own authority over Scripture?

Roman Catholicism did not come out of thin air....it was the product of hundreds of years of an apostasy that was foretold by Jesus and his apostles.
Paul states that their being gathered to Christ at his return would not take place until this “apostasy” came “first”.(2 Thess 2:1-5; 2 Pet 2:1-3)

From those early deviations already foretold, came a situation that made the takeover of the Roman church a definite possibility. The foxes were put in charge of the hen house.

1 Tim 4:1-3 contains some identifying features of this apostate church....
“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.” (NIV)

Who forbids marriage to their priests and nuns.....and who until relatively recent times told their members that eating meat on Friday was sinful? Add to that the veneration of Mary and the blatant idol worship so clearly evident, and we can see who were the first to adopt these practices and enforce them on an entire population with a mandated state religion that was a fusion of pagan Roman sun worship and apostate “Christianity”. They didn’t “Christianize” the paganism, but paganized the “Christianity”.
“Sunday” was a holy day in the Roman Empire for obvious reasons....but it was never a holy day to God.

From this framework came all the churches of Christendom, who in the Reformation, tossed out the more obvious false doctrines, but kept the core of Catholic teaching. This core is not only evident in the so called “Christian” churches, but is found in all false religion around the world......a multiplicity of gods, belief in an immortal soul, and a fiery hell of eternal conscious torment. All false worship contains these elements. None of them are biblical.

We can trust God to lead us to the truth.....but only if we allow him to strip away all our foregone conclusions and start again. Just as the first Christians had to have the courage to walk away from apostate Judaism, amid much persecution and accusation, (Matt 10:34-39) so too those who genuinely seek God must do the same.

We cannot be led where we do not want to go.
 
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