Is it possible to lose salvation?

[GodsGrace]

But the context shows what traditions he means:

“13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.” (2Th 2:13-15 NKJV)

That word "Therefore" at the start of verse 15 refers the reader back to the previous two verses, salvation, sanctification, belief in the truth.

Therefore refers back...OK
But I still wouldn't know what traditions Paul is speaking of regarding salvation through sanctification.

Do YOU know what they would be?

It does, however, state by conversation or written word.

 

[nedsk]

Why not reply to scriptures concerning the tradition as they speak there, rather than simply pulling out my mention that the tradition Paul was speaking about had nothing to do with "the ringing of bells" there?

Traditions again, this way,

2Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (See 2 Thes 3:10 below) concerning what was taught them in word (when they were with them).

Tradition here

2 Thes 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

"WALK disorderly" NOT AFTER (( the tradition )) RECEIVED OF US already (Again 2Thes 3:10)

He is telling them how they ought follow them after the manner of their BEHAVIOR (Paul having set himself out as a specific example for them to follow when they were actually with them). And this they taught them by mouth or in WORD (See 2Thes 3:10 again)

As he goes on to say

2 Thes 3:7 For yourselves KNOW how ye ought to follow us: for WE BEHAVED NOT ourselves DISORDERLY among you

They were witnesses of their behavior and so know how to behave.

But there SOME, which "WALKETH disorderly" NOT AFTER the tradition RECEIVED OF US

This is speaking of THEIR WALKS, whether "WALKING orderly" (as Paul did) when he was among them as a living an example for them. As Paul says, "You yourselves know" or, because "When we were with you" (which he is NOT now) but rather is NOW writing to them exactly what they commanded them IN PERSON (which is by WORD, or by MOUTH) to "walk orderly"

Another example of by word (mouth) and by letter/and or epistle are shown to us in Acts 15:27 which would be a safegard for them. So after sending letters, they say, "We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth."

So again, if this is not clear enough by now, this tradition has to do with ones behavior, which was demonstrated for them in person, which is that which is after the tradition they received of them (both by word/commanded of them but also exemplified by them in person)

2 Thes 3:10 For even WHEN WE WERE with you, ((( this ))) we commanded you, ((( that ))) if any would not work, neither should he eat.

So there it is, Paul is now writing in this very epistle what they actually commanded them in word (when he was actually with them). And he is doing this because they are no longer with them and are HEARING THINGS (being away) about some among them now, who are not walking after the tradition they had previously received of them.

As Paul points out here

2 Thes 3:11 For "WE HEAR" (being away from them now) that there are some which "WALK among you" DISORDERLY, "WORKING NOT AT ALL", but "are busybodies".

These are they who "WALK disorderly" and "NOT after the tradition" they received of them when they were with them

2 Thes 3:12 Now them that are such we command (again, See 2Thes 3:10) and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that "with quietness THEY WORK, and EAT THEIR OWN BREAD."

And so Paul ends with

2 Thes 3:14 And if any man obey not our word (now) by "THIS EPISTLE", note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

So whether by word or by epistle they spake the same things, Paul demonstrates this here, and so does Acts 15:27 when a letter was sent what followed were those confirming the same by mouth.

This demonstrates that this is not "the ringing of bells" sort of traditions, but a tradition that after a walk and patern of behavior that the apostles demonstrated and expected them to walk in.

Traditions are behaviors

 

[Prycejosh1987]

I would say no. Jesus said a good tree does not bear bad fruit and a bad tree does not bear good fruit. I believe those who are truly saved have always been truly saved. God traces our steps even when we didnt believe. Our hearts stay genuine in action.

 

[ProDeo]

When two or more are gathered in his name....

So now the mysterious, miraculous transubstantiation also applies to :

Matt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

Transubstantiation is a core Roman Catholic doctrine explaining the Eucharist (Communion). It posits that during the Eucharistic prayer, the bread and wine are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ, while retaining their outward appearance. This transformation is a miraculous change of "substance," while the "accidents" (physical properties like taste and appearance) remain the same, according to Catholic teaching

And then on top of that making the Eucharist a salvation issue?

In fact, attending Mass is an obligation, under penalty of mortal sin, each Sunday and on certain other Holy Days of Obligation

Out of curiosity I watched an Eucharist on my TV last Sunday, it was good, no transubstantiation nonsense, but then there was this idolizing of Mary, robbing Jesus from His glory.

And besides Jesus said do this in remembereance of me.

Exactly and without the RCC fringe.

And Gods also not obligated to grant you salvation just because you parroted the magic incantation.

You have to explain the parroted the magic incantation, I have no idea what you are talking about and to whom you are talking.

That was the single most stupid comment I've seen from someone in a long time.

Again, about whom are you talking?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Traditions are behaviors

Not biblically. Traditions are teachings! It is the teaching which produces knowledge which produces behavior. but it is teaching according to teh bible

 

[Marymog]

OK.

The MAtthew Passage is written specifically about life during the 70th week of Daniel aka the Tribulation. That is the entire context of it.

During that time those who do not help the 144,000 and other believers are not saved for they have received the mark and are under the delusion god sends on the earth

Ronald,

I am going to quote you so that you can see how you are making my point: "those who do not help the 144,000 and other believers are not saved".

Translation: Faith, without works, is dead!

The passage from Matthew 25 we are debating and Romans 2:7 that I quoted along with it clearly state that if you do good works, you will have eternal life. If you don't do good works you will go into everlasting fire. You are adding your opinion that good works naturally follow having faith. Scripture makes it clear that is not true and that if you don't have faith, you will perish. If you don't do good works, even if you have faith, you will perish.

None the less.......thank you for your opinion.

 

[Marymog]

Well tell me how you exegetew these verses:

John 10: 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Ephesians 1:4-6​

King James Version​

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 2:8-10​

King James Version​

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ronald,

In regard to John 10 and Ephesians 2: Jesus’ promises to protect his sheep on the condition that his sheep remain in the flock. It doesn’t exclude the possibility that a sheep could wonder off (lose their faith) and thus lose the reward of eternal life. Like scripture says those who maintain the faith, do good works (James 2:14-26/Matthew 25/John 5), repent and get baptized (Acts 2: 38/Mark 16:16/1 Peter 3:21) and profess with your mouth (Romans 10:9) you will be saved, and you cannot be plucked from His hand. If you don't do all those things, you will not be saved because you will no longer be in His hand because you abandoned Him. He didn't abandon you! If you would read a little further into the book of John (15) you would know this: 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

In regard to Ephesians 1: Predestination in not the same as guaranteed salvation. If you honestly believe that you are predestined to be saved, then that means that God took your free will from you. God has a plan for us, but we must cooperate in that plan.

 

[nedsk]

So now the mysterious, miraculous transubstantiation also applies to :

Matt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

Transubstantiation is a core Roman Catholic doctrine explaining the Eucharist (Communion). It posits that during the Eucharistic prayer, the bread and wine are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ, while retaining their outward appearance. This transformation is a miraculous change of "substance," while the "accidents" (physical properties like taste and appearance) remain the same, according to Catholic teaching

And then on top of that making the Eucharist a salvation issue?

In fact, attending Mass is an obligation, under penalty of mortal sin, each Sunday and on certain other Holy Days of Obligation

Out of curiosity I watched an Eucharist on my TV last Sunday, it was good, no transubstantiation nonsense, but then there was this idolizing of Mary, robbing Jesus from His glory.



Exactly and without the RCC fringe.



You have to explain the parroted the magic incantation, I have no idea what you are talking about and to whom you are talking.



Again, about whom are you talking?

You don't believe you're consuming the flesh and blood of Jesus so you have no life in you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald,

I am going to quote you so that you can see how you are making my point: "those who do not help the 144,000 and other believers are not saved".

Translation: Faith, without works, is dead!

The passage from Matthew 25 we are debating and Romans 2:7 that I quoted along with it clearly state that if you do good works, you will have eternal life. If you don't do good works you will go into everlasting fire. You are adding your opinion that good works naturally follow having faith. Scripture makes it clear that is not true and that if you don't have faith, you will perish. If you don't do good works, even if you have faith, you will perish.

None the less.......thank you for your opinion.

I have always said, we are saved by faith without works (in order to get saved) but true saving faith produces works. Just like a car can't help being a car, so a christian can't help but doing the works God prepared before time for HIm to do!

those works do not save, do not keep us saved, nor maintain our salvation they are a result and a testimony to the fact that jesus alone saved us and now we are new creatures with a new heart, mind and a born again spirit.

 

[ProDeo]

You don't believe you're consuming the flesh and blood of Jesus so you have no life in you.

False accusation.

I do believe, but not in the RCC way.

Next insult please.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't believe you're consuming the flesh and blood of Jesus so you have no life in you.

My goodness nedsk....
since when does doctrine save anyone?

Our doctrine does not save us...
our belief in God saves us and our obedience to God saves us.

God came in the flesh to teach us HOW to be saved.
I used to tell the kids the story of the little bird that got stuck in the barn, couldn't get out, and risked dying.
So a human became a bird so he could go inside the barn and show the little bird how to get out.
It was great and many kids got the analogy right away. They were about 10 or so when I used this method.

So it's important to know HOW to get saved....
then there is differing teachings that will not cause loss of salvation.

 

[nedsk]

False accusation.

I do believe, but not in the RCC way.

Next insult please.

Is it? Prove it

Right you believe it's "symbolic".

It's not an insult to tell you you're wrong

 

[nedsk]

My goodness nedsk....
since when does doctrine save anyone?

Our doctrine does not save us...
our belief in God saves us and our obedience to God saves us.

God came in the flesh to teach us HOW to be saved.
I used to tell the kids the story of the little bird that got stuck in the barn, couldn't get out, and risked dying.
So a human became a bird so he could go inside the barn and show the little bird how to get out.
It was great and many kids got the analogy right away. They were about 10 or so when I used this method.

So it's important to know HOW to get saved....
then there is differing teachings that will not cause loss of salvation.

You don't know how? What did Jesus say?

John 6: 52

52 Then the Jews started to argue among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them,

“Amen, amen, I say to you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood,
you do not have life within you.

It's not me talking. It's straight forward. As to obedience eat his flesh and drink his blood or you have no life within you. The doctrine is based in the word of Jesus because we believe that Jesus speaks the truth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald,

In regard to John 10 and Ephesians 2: Jesus’ promises to protect his sheep on the condition that his sheep remain in the flock. It doesn’t exclude the possibility that a sheep could wonder off (lose their faith) and thus lose the reward of eternal life. Like scripture says those who maintain the faith, do good works (James 2:14-26/Matthew 25/John 5), repent and get baptized (Acts 2: 38/Mark 16:16/1 Peter 3:21) and profess with your mouth (Romans 10:9) you will be saved, and you cannot be plucked from His hand. If you don't do all those things, you will not be saved because you will no longer be in His hand because you abandoned Him. He didn't abandon you! If you would read a little further into the book of John (15) you would know this: 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

In regard to Ephesians 1: Predestination in not the same as guaranteed salvation. If you honestly believe that you are predestined to be saved, then that means that God took your free will from you. God has a plan for us, but we must cooperate in that plan.

Well Jesus disagrees with you -

1. John 10:16
   And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
2. John 10:27
   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jesus' sheep hear His voice and follow HIm and have eternal life.

If they left following the Shepherd, the bible also tells us why:

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

See teh "apparent sheep who leave were not real sheep as the bible says.


As fir predestination- it is guaranteed salvation! Predestiniation is "pro-orizo" which means to mark out in advance. We were chosen by god before the foundation of the world just aS IT SAYS IN sCRIPTURE.

UNSAVED MAN HAS NO FREE WILL WHEN IT COMES TO CHOOSING GOD, THE SCRIPTURES MAKE THAT PERFECTLY CLEAR

Romans 8:6-9

King James Version

​

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Corinthians 2:14

King James Version

​

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't know how? What did Jesus say?

John 6: 52

52 Then the Jews started to argue among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them,

“Amen, amen, I say to you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood,
you do not have life within you.

It's not me talking. It's straight forward. As to obedience eat his flesh and drink his blood or you have no life within you. The doctrine is based in the word of Jesus because we believe that Jesus speaks the truth.

Listen carefully....
Jesus said to eat His body and drink His blood.
If He meant this literally, and I think He did,,,,then it is good for the CC.
(I'm not Catholic BTW).

If Jesus meant it metaphorically, then it's still good because we all must believe in Him and obey Him.

§What you're saying is condemning everyone besides Cathocis to hell and you must truly know that this is not
what the CCC teaches. The CCC teaches that anyone that is properly baptized will be saved. Need the paragraph?
I doubt it, but I'll look it up if necessary.

 

[nedsk]

Listen carefully....
Jesus said to eat His body and drink His blood.
If He meant this literally, and I think He did,,,,then it is good for the CC.
(I'm not Catholic BTW).

If Jesus meant it metaphorically, then it's still good because we all must believe in Him and obey Him.

§What you're saying is condemning everyone besides Cathocis to hell and you must truly know that this is not
what the CCC teaches. The CCC teaches that anyone that is properly baptized will be saved. Need the paragraph?
I doubt it, but I'll look it up if necessary.

I have a nasty habit of listening carefully. What Jesus actually said was eat my flesh and drink my blood. Verses 53 54 and 56. In verse 55 he again uses flesh and blood and described them as real food and real drink.

If you think it's metaphorical then you cant believe in Jesus and be obedient. Verse 52 people start asking how can this man give us his flesh to eat? Verse 53 is the answer Jesus gives. That's not metaphorical as Jesus says 3 times eat my flesh drink my blood. The people who couldn't believe and be obedient left him that day. Verse 66.

I'm not condemning anyone those are Jesus words not mine. You people try to pull this silliness every time.

I know the CCC very well and don't need any paragraph because I have scripture. I have no trouble with what Jesus is saying but clearly other people do.

 

[LoveYeshua]

You don't know how? What did Jesus say?

John 6: 52

52 Then the Jews started to argue among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them,

“Amen, amen, I say to you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood,
you do not have life within you.

It's not me talking. It's straight forward. As to obedience eat his flesh and drink his blood or you have no life within you. The doctrine is based in the word of Jesus because we believe that Jesus speaks the truth.

Jhn 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

when will you understand?

on the day of judgment when Jesus judges us all accordant to HIS words what will you do? jump at him and take a bite? Drink his blood that flows from an inflicted wound?

His words are spirit and what he means is this; He is the only way to eternal life, we have to live BY HIS WORDS and DO our father's will like he did.

 

[LoveYeshua]

If Jesus meant it metaphorically, then it's still good because we all must believe in Him and obey Him.

Yes this is what we have to do , believe in him FULLY and Obey him FULLY, in essence completely live by his words.

 

[nedsk]

Jhn 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

when will you understand?

on the day of judgment when Jesus judges us all accordant to HIS words what will you do? jump at him and take a bite? Drink his blood that flows from an inflicted wound?

His words are spirit and what he means is this; He is the only way to eternal life, we have to live BY HIS WORDS and DO our father's will like he did.

Jhn 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

when will you understand?

on the day of judgment when Jesus judges us all accordant to HIS words what will you do? jump at him and take a bite? Drink his blood that flows from an inflicted wound?

His words are spirit and what he means is this; He is the only way to eternal life, we have to live BY HIS WORDS and DO our father's will like he did.

You can mock Jesus all you like. I believe Jesus when he speaks. He says eat my flesh and drink my blood. You aren't mockng me friend.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a nasty habit of listening carefully. What Jesus actually said was eat my flesh and drink my blood. Verses 53 54 and 56. In verse 55 he again uses flesh and blood and described them as real food and real drink.

If you think it's metaphorical then you cant believe in Jesus and be obedient. Verse 52 people start asking how can this man give us his flesh to eat? Verse 53 is the answer Jesus gives. That's not metaphorical as Jesus says 3 times eat my flesh drink my blood. The people who couldn't believe and be obedient left him that day. Verse 66.

I'm not condemning anyone those are Jesus words not mine. You people try to pull this silliness every time.

I know the CCC very well and don't need any paragraph because I have scripture. I have no trouble with what Jesus is saying but clearly other people do.

I'm not debating the Eucharist.

I'm saying that you cannot condemn a person because they cannot bring themselves to understand something the same way you do.


CCC no. 1271

VII. THE GRACE OF BAPTISM ⇡
The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians ⇡

1271

Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82