The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[quietthinker]

Tell us honestly, do you really have any personal respect for the God shown to us in the Bible, or do you just ask questions to demonstrate your contempt for the way he exercises his divine justice?

Psal. 111:10a The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom.

I have absolute respect for the God of Jesus, which might I add I understand to be the same God since before Creation.
I also believe that Jesus is the unmitigated revelation of God's character.

I do not see it possible that the violence attributed to God by the OT writers accurately reflects the God of Jesus if Jesus was in fact the real unmitigated revelation of God.

Can you understand there is a dilemma here?

 

[pandaflower]

Have you really come to the conclusion that Jesus talking to his Father in John 17, was assured that his Father was about to have him tortured and killed because he needed it before he could forgive?

See my other post made as you write this one.

Have you ever considered the story of the proposed sacrifice of Isaac in the OT?

Abraham,who didn't think he'd be a dad, was told by God to kill his only son as a sacrifice to God.

Abraham didn't hesitate.

He made ready and made the journey with his son.

Human sacrifice.

 

[ElieG12]

Some believers who invent doctrines about a different "God" in the Old Testament, because they say His justice over the wicked is "disapproved" from their personal point of view, at the same time speak of a god who burns human-souls for eternity.

There are many "believers" in the world who seem to be very inconsistent with their personal ideas. This happens because they don't learn from the Scriptures in a conscious and reasoned way, but rather try to sift through texts and reject what doesn't seem to please them. This is inventing their own ideas based on their own thoughts, even if they sometimes use the Bible.

 

[ElieG12]

I have absolute respect for the God of Jesus, which might I add I understand to be the same God since before Creation.
I also believe that Jesus is the unmitigated revelation of God's character.

I do not see it possible that the violence attributed to God by the OT writers accurately reflects the God of Jesus if Jesus was in fact the real unmitigated revelation of God.

Can you understand there is a dilemma here?

I would never judge God. He will judge you, me and all. Actually, he gave the judgment to Jesus, the one who died (was killed) for us.

Tell us: How would you judge people who, for no reason at all, torture you, spit on you, and nail you to a wooden post like a criminal?

 

[quietthinker]

Personally, I already have.

I think there were many Gods in the OT record. The names therein attributed to God being proof of not one,but many.

I think in the pursuit of a monotheistic ideal, those who composed our OT omitted those facts.

Talk to any observant Jew, they will tell the inquiring Christian that our Old Testament is not their OT.

If you take our Bible as written,and accept NT Jesus is OT God in the flesh, the gospel is teaching us to ask the same God who cursed us in Eden to save us from himself and his curse.

We're taught Jesus died as a ransom for our sins.

A ransom paid to himself after he made us to be condemned in separation from him for the sin of the first people?

Why didn't he forgive them for their sins then and there?

Whereas, if one lesser God cursed us to be sinners, the true higher God paying in his own blood,paying the ransom, as the proverbial scapegoat for the world's sins and to nullify the curse upon all humans made by that lesser God , would make sense.

Otherwise, accepting the Genesis mono-God of the OT and the gospel of NT Jesus as is,we are asking God to save us from himself.

Addressing your question highlighted in red above.
I think he did forgive them then and there.

Check this presentation by Brad Jersak and let me know if you find any value?...thanks

 

[quietthinker]

I would never judge God. He will judge you, me and all. Actually, he gave the judgment to Jesus, the one who died (was killed) for us.

Tell us: How would you judge people who, for no reason at all, torture you, spit on you, and nail you to a wooden post like a criminal?

I think God allows people to judge him worthy of their worship or not.....and so they determine the verdict themselves

 

[ElieG12]

What kind of apologetics for evil is that?

If evil people who continue to harm the planet and others are forever forgiven, humans will never enjoy the peace God promises to meek people. What kind of justice is that?

I can't believe the nerve of some people. I just can't stand it. Good night.

 

[quietthinker]

See my other post made as you write this one.

Have you ever considered the story of the proposed sacrifice of Isaac in the OT?

Abraham,who didn't think he'd be a dad, was told by God to kill his only son as a sacrifice to God.

Abraham didn't hesitate.

He made ready and made the journey with his son.

Human sacrifice.

Yes, I've considered it.
The account of Abraham is by Moses.....so, sometime down the track.
Abraham lived in Mesopotamia where child sacrifice was a done thing. What ever Moses records as Abraham hearing re sacrificing Isaac, I question. I am not persuaded that whatever Abraham heard was from the God of Jesus. This command seems very inconsistent with a God who forbade human sacrifice in other parts of the scripture. It's definitely inconsistent with Jesus.

 

[quietthinker]

What kind of apologetics for evil is that?

If evil people who continue to harm the planet and others are forever forgiven, humans will never enjoy the peace God promises to meek people. What kind of justice is that?

I can't believe the nerve of some people. I just can't stand it. Good night.

I understand it's difficult to kick against the pricks. One wants to avoid it.....but take courage.

 

[St. SteVen]

So you ask, how is this love? I would answer this way, .....Love allows freedom and in so doing risks those that are loved to turn against you and to turn against others, even turn against themselves. It destroys. This is the madness of sin for which there is no reason and no excuse.

This is a common idea in Christianity. But I think it smacks of indifference on God's part.
We can't even come to Him unless He draws us to Himself.
Why then would we conclude that He bows to our free will for destruction?
A good parent does not let his children play in the street, saying it was their choice to be run over.

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[Jack]

God doesn't ask permission for anything. He drowned all but 8 on Earth "Making them an example"! He burned Sodom alive, "Making them an example"! He didn't ask anyone's permission. He will burn BILLIONS of humans in Hell FOREVER! He won't ask permission. There will be BILLIONS of humans burning in Hell "Forever and ever" who don't believe in the everlasting Hell Fire!

 

[St. SteVen]

The brightest light casts the deepest shadow.

How could mercy be delivered, if there was never any real danger, nothing to be "saved" from?

No bliss without horror?

Perhaps that explains what happened in the Garden. ???
And who set it in play.

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[quietthinker]

God doesn't ask permission for anything. He drowned all but 8 on Earth "Making them an example"! He burned Sodom alive, "Making them an example"! He didn't ask anyone's permission. He will burn BILLIONS of humans in Hell FOREVER! He won't ask permission. There will be BILLIONS of humans burning in Hell "Forever and ever" who don't believe in the everlasting Hell Fire!

We know who your God is Jack.

 

[Jack]

We know who your God is Jack.

Oh that's right, you reject the Genesis Flood that Jesus, Moses, Peter and several other Bible writers clearly confirmed. Are you Muslim? Do you also reject Jesus' warnings of EVERLASTING Hell fire? Soon you'll believe. Everybody will!

 

[quietthinker]

Oh that's right,you reject the Genesis Flood that Jesus, Moses, Peter and several other Bible writers clearly confirmed. Are you Muslim?

Delusion is not recognised by the deluded and mistaken allegiance a pitiful sight. Not even Jesus was able to break the spell holding those who relish their rightness while blaming their brothers.

 

[Taken]

This is where I question things.
Why should we be blamed for not being like God?

Blame I think edges on the notion of wrongly accused.
Blamed for being like Him.
Blamed for not being like Him.

Rather I think the more accurate term would be accountable.
Accountable if we choose to be like Him.
Accountable if we choose to not be like Him

Is it really our fault?

This topic is specific between man and God…
However manKind, all begin ignorant.
* Sure there are instincts and reactions …
* And sure a 2 yr old can be taught, say, I love God, and have no concept of what A god is.
* And sure, a young child can be reared in a God filled home, * a godless tyrannical home or * a really confusing open lip service of God, and backroom opposite behavior.

It is the notion… all human babes will grow…(leave mommy and daddy)…is the concept to exercise one’s own freedom, to Learn About God, through a lens of open ears, maturity, patience, reasoning, tasting the experience…
Deciding…Choosing…Eating or Spitting out…
* And thus…be accountable for one’s own Choice Consequences…Peace or Chaos..

The Fall set up His plan of redemption.
There would be no story without it.

Sure.

Did God not anticipate this?

Yes.
God loves all of His Creations
God desires for all of His creations to Choose to Love Him.

Mankind has opportunity to somewhat experience / understand from Gods perspective…
Procreation..~
Offspring…
*“some parents”, yearning, hoping, love, prepare, long before a birth of a child…
And continues after the birth…
*“other parents”, mistake, no love, inconvenience, long before the birth…
And continues after the birth…
*”other potential parents”… no love, eliminate the thing, mistake.

Difference… God already Knows…which men will choose to love Him, Hate Him and even Reject Belief in Him, ( sort of weird, confessing to not believe, yet blaming Him for all their woes.)

Point..
Is Relationship.
Two Freely agreeing to the Relationship and the manner of the Relationship.
One Agreeing, One Not…Failure.

Very Often… between humans, they quick start “agree” to a relationship… without one iota of consideration or agreement of the “manner”.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Jack]

Delusion is not recognised by the deluded and mistaken allegiance a pitiful sight. Not even Jesus was able to break the spell holding those who relish their rightness while blaming their brothers.

Jesus? Are you referring to Jesus of the Bible Who declared the Genesis Flood to be absolutely LITERAL?

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

 

[pandaflower]

Yes, I've considered it.
The account of Abraham is by Moses.....so, sometime down the track.
Abraham lived in Mesopotamia where child sacrifice was a done thing. What ever Moses records as Abraham hearing re sacrificing Isaac, I question. I am not persuaded that whatever Abraham heard was from the God of Jesus. This command seems very inconsistent with a God who forbade human sacrifice in other parts of the scripture. It's definitely inconsistent with Jesus.

Given the standing of Abraham in the faith,that's quite an indictment of the Isaac account.

It's interesting to consider what you say as,the God of Jesus, if we accept first that Jesus was that God,made flesh.

Jesus was a human sacrifice to God. To himself,God in flesh? I don't think that makes sense.

God killed himself to augment the human sinner condition he'd ordained himself?

 

[St. SteVen]

God killed himself to augment the human sinner condition he'd ordained himself?

That's an interesting way to look at it.

It seems this was all preordained with the Logos (which was with, and which was God) before the Logos became flesh. (Jesus)

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[Wick Stick]

No bliss without horror?

My thinking is that God is the source of ALL things. Satan isn't the source of anything, he can only twist or mis-use what is already given by God.

So... all things are lawful, when used in their appropriate time and situation. And... all things can be evil, if applied in the wrong time or situation.

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven.