BEWARE OF THE SPIRITUALIZERS HERE

[PS95]

Indeed, the apostles of that time (including Paul) were only given what was necessary and pertinent to the beginning and growth of the church. The scriptures then tell us that those things sealed and not to be revealed until the end, and the "finish" of the church age would not come until the times of the gentiles were fulfilled--specifically, when the seventh angel is about to sound.

And you are correct about Paul for the most part. He only knew enough to say things even he did not fully understand--as he explained, because things were under restraint by "He who restrains...until He is taken out of the way." Even so, Paul was given lots of insight--but as "through a glass dimly." His insight was so sketchy, some of it he confessed not knowing, saying, "—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows."

But that time of revealing was to come, and has come.

As for the return of Christ before or after Paul died--He is not to be found or seen among the dead--the world sees Him no more. As He said, regarding His returning in the glory of the Father, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation." Instead, as He further explained, His return would not be as expected, but in this way: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Which then--whether Paul actually understood or the Holy Spirit was speaking and he too did not fully understand--his saying "we who are alive and remain" does make for a good description of those whom Christ had/has come [again] into with new life--not dead in the flesh--but alive in Christ in God, even while remaining in the world until the body of flesh passes.

But do not think it a theory or a mere belief or hope, for I speak what I know and testify what I have seen according to the promise and the finish, given to me.

john 14:19?-- That's what Jws use to convince us of an invisible return in 1914 that only they know about.

Don't you think that Jesus was speaking about this death and that they would not see him for a time but then they would- as in

John 16
16“A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”
17Then some of His disciples said among themselves, “What is this that He says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’; and, ‘because I go to the Father’?” 18They said therefore, “What is this that He says, ‘A little while’? We do not [d]know what He is saying.”
19Now Jesus knew that they desired to ask Him, and He said to them, “Are you inquiring among yourselves about what I said, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’? 20Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy. 21A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.

 

[ScottA]

john 14:19?-- That's what Jws use to convince us of an invisible return in 1914 that only they know about.

Don't you think that Jesus was speaking about this death and that they would not see him for a time but then they would- as in

John 16
16“A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”
17Then some of His disciples said among themselves, “What is this that He says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’; and, ‘because I go to the Father’?” 18They said therefore, “What is this that He says, ‘A little while’? We do not [d]know what He is saying.”
19Now Jesus knew that they desired to ask Him, and He said to them, “Are you inquiring among yourselves about what I said, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’? 20Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy. 21A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.

As for the JWs, two wrongs don't make a right. They did not understand, but used the passage as they believed. Which many more than they also do.

As for Jesus speaking about what would immediately follow, yes. But there is a greater context. That understanding worked for His disciples of that time. But it is the greater word regarding His return that defines the greater context--for we too inquire among ourselves, and weep and lament. His return is as great in scope as the number of those who are His. Which then was spoken of though not fully understood, and continued to be elaborated by His apostles. But it is Paul's summary, saying "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24) that states it most clear.

Now, granted, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 has been translated and interpreted differently by many--but it's all there. The "As in Adam all die" says enough. Did all in Adam die at once? No, but as he said, "but each one in his own order", meaning, not in Adam's time of death, but in the order of each ones own death. Which likewise pertains to the entire passage regarding Christ's return by the same "but each one in his own order" timing. Otherwise--comparing with Adam, would be spiritually a lie, and historically, simply not true. But he spoke by the Spirit--and the words are true as stated. Which--in the case of Jesus coming (returning), knocking on the door "in you"...is not visible to this world (as in "the world sees Me no more")--which is the greater context...beginning with Adam "And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— Notice, even there in Genesis--in the beginning--it says "now"..."in his own order."

 

[PS95]

As for the JWs, two wrongs don't make a right. They did not understand, but used the passage as they believed. Which many more than they also do.

As for Jesus speaking about what would immediately follow, yes. But there is a greater context. That understanding worked for His disciples of that time. But it is the greater word regarding His return that defines the greater context--for we too inquire among ourselves, and weep and lament. His return is as great in scope as the number of those who are His. Which then was spoken of though not fully understood, and continued to be elaborated by His apostles. But it is Paul's summary, saying "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24) that states it most clear.

Now, granted, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 has been translated and interpreted differently by many--but it's all there. The "As in Adam all die" says enough. Did all in Adam die at once? No, but as he said, "but each one in his own order", meaning, not in Adam's time of death, but in the order of each ones own death. Which likewise pertains to the entire passage regarding Christ return by the same "but each one in his own order" timing. Otherwise--comparing with Adam, would be spiritually a lie, and historically, simply not true. But he spoke by the Spirit--and the words are true as stated. Which--in the case of Jesus coming (returning), knocking on the door "in you"...is not visible to this world (as in "the world sees Me no more")--which is the greater context...beginning with Adam "And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— Notice, even there in Genesis--in the beginning--it says "now"...in Adams "own order."

I'm not totally certain I followed you here but.. 1 Cor 15
20But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man death came, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is clear that this excludes the Father who put all things in subjection to Him. 28


The verse in bold comes BEFORE Paul spoke about each in his own order and then Paul gives the order--
it has nothing to do with Adam n that in that way.
For as in Adam all die-In the possession of a common nature with Adam all mankind are liable to death.
Even so, in Christ all will be made alive due to the common nature with Christ, so all will be of that Resurrection like Jesus.
John 5:21, John 6:27, John 6:39-158
Then Paul lists the order of resurrection- Christ, dead in Christ & those still alive in Christ when He comes. Then comes the end.

As to the kingdom is not seen with observance--(luke) I believe His kingdom is in us believers now. It is not distinguishable but spread throughout the globe in our hearts. BUT it will also be realized fully when He comes. He rules until His enemies are put under His feet.. Then death is abolished- new heavens and earth

A lot is made of the comparisons to Adam- but I see it as simple as death (spiritual and physical)came thru Adam-and spread to all because all sinned--- but Life is in Christ. (spiritual and physical).

I'm not sure if I comprehend your meaning but are you maybe thinking it is only a spiritual life and not a physical resurrection in the new jerusalem ( new heavens and earth) as well?

 

[ScottA]

I'm not totally certain I followed you here but.. 1 Cor 15
20But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man death came, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is clear that this excludes the Father who put all things in subjection to Him. 28


The verse in bold comes after Paul spoke about each in his own order-- it has nothing to do with that in that way.
For as in Adam all die-In the possession of a common nature with Adam all mankind are liable to death.
Even so, in Christ al will be made alive due to the common nature with Christ so all will be of that Resurrection like Jesus.
John 5:21, John 6:27, John 6:39-158
Then Paul lists the order of resurrection- Christ, dead in Christ & those still alive in Christ when He comes. Then comes the end.

As to the kingdom is not seen with observance--(luke) I believe His kingdom is in us believers now. It is not distinguishable but spread throughout the globe in our hearts. BUT it will also be realized fully when He comes. He rules until His enemies are put under His feet.. Then death is abolished- new heavens and earth

A lot is made of the comparisons to Adam- but I see it as simple as death (spiritual and physical)came thru Adam-and spread to all because all sinned--- but Life is in Christ. (spiritual and physical).

I'm not sure if I comprehend your meaning but are you maybe thinking it is only a spiritual life and not a physical resurrection in the new jerusalem ( new heavens and earth) as well?

If you can't see the "order" as Paul called it and explained, then you can't see it. "But" that is the order. "But" being key; and if not fully taken into account, the cause of error.

As for "when He comes" (in your comment of the kingdom not seen with observation), has Jesus not gone to the Father and afterward "come" (returned) to you? To say no, is to deny Christ. To say yes, is to witness His coming--(already) "in you", "but each one in his own order" just as it is written. What say you then--is Christ in you having returned, or not? Will you give witness to His presence here, having first gone to be with the Father promising to return--or will you deny?

As for your "comparison to Adam" (above), have you not also described, since Adam "each one" living and dying spiritual and physical--"in his own order?" That is the "order" (the timing). By this I know that you have seen what is true, but perhaps have not acknowledged it. Which I attribute to the "false teachings" of certain who brought "destructive doctrines" into the early church as Peter foretold and warned, that are still taught and believed event to this day.

 

[Earburner]

That’s a great place to start. Now reconcile those verses with these verses.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Actually, there are three comings/manifestation of Jesus:
1. By his mortal flesh,
2. By his Holy Spirit,
3. By his Immortality.

 

[Davy]

like video footage, or an official letter signed and stamped by a roman council? you realize it was two thousand years ago right?
also what sect did he lead?
you have circumstantial evidence, just a few and i would agree, but there is a mountain, to much to list. the Essenes were known for prophesy, John was the greatest prophet, the teacher of rightesness is never named but when they describe him its the same as John, living in the wild, animal rags, eating grasshoppers and honey, etc etc. when Jesus talks to John in prison he gives him a list of credentials : hungry are fed, leapers leap, etc, the list is not found in the bible its found in the DSS theology writing.

The Essenes were a monastic sect which the secret fraternities, like the Masonic Lodge, tries to claim a heritage from. So does the Rosicrucian Order (AMORC) fraternity claim that also. I know, I've see writings by them from their members. So I would not call that "circumstantial evidence".

And the writings of the Dead Sea Scrolls (minus the Bible fragments found among the sect) were NOT the authors of The Bible.

 

[Behold]

Our preacher in the Church I was raised in would only speak harshly about the sin,

Avoid this type of religious fanatic, as all they will bring you is condemnation, which is not of God.

 

[Davy]

I never said we can't rebuke. I said we don't need to be rude and hit people personally. Attack the belief not the person. You were pointing out how someone else starts it.. as a defense to be rude. That's childish--"he did it first!!" lol come on...

You can rant all you want, but you are only showing support for those who mock and personally attack in vain attempt to ruin one's credibility. That is 99% of the reason why certain ones mock me here, because when you stay with what is actually written in Bible Scripture, and don't play their SPIRITUALIZING GAMES, they don't like me exposing them, so they get angry and begin with their personal attacks.

 

[PS95]

You can rant all you want, but you are only showing support for those who mock and personally attack in vain attempt to ruin one's credibility. That is 99% of the reason why certain ones mock me here, because when you stay with what is actually written in Bible Scripture, and don't play their SPIRITUALIZING GAMES, they don't like me exposing them, so they get angry and begin with their personal attacks.

I see it on both sides. I spoke to both sides. I even include myself.
As fellow believers, we should all really try to discuss without the anger, accusations and name calling.
Otherwise, it makes Christians look just awful. A little respect can go a long way even if you don't agree.
You will know them by the love among the members.<- Jesus said that.
I never see that here.
You keep pointing at them. I'm saying it starts with ONE person to end it. Who that person may be I don't know.

 

[Davy]

Avoid this type of religious fanatic, as all they will bring you is condemnation, which is not of God.

So, in your rebellious view, you say it's OK to rebel against God's written Word, specifically what Apostle Paul commanded for leaders in Christ's Church...

1 Tim 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV


You need to learn how to properly quote someone also, seeing as how you omitted the latter part of my statement. Here's is what I had said...

Our preacher in the Church I was raised in would only speak harshly about the sin, showing it from Bible Scripture, while his eyes focused back and forth on the one guilty in the congregation. All one had to do was to look at where he was staring and you'd know who he was talking about.

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
I'd be very... very... careful when listening to those like Behold that come here pushing more doctrines from Judaism than actually from New Testament Christianity. The doctrine of men called 'Soul Sleep' is an old tradition from Jewish traditions, as they believe our soul part is made up of material matter, which is a crazy, primitive, carnal seated idea that goes directly against Bible Scripture, even against some Old Testament Bible Scriptures, like Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 and 1 Kings 17.

 

[PS95]

If you can't see the "order" as Paul called it and explained, then you can't see it. "But" that is the order. "But" being key; and if not fully taken into account, the cause of error.

As for "when He comes" (in your comment of the kingdom not seen with observation), has Jesus not gone to the Father and afterward "come" (returned) to you? To say no, is to deny Christ. To say yes, is to witness His coming--(already) "in you", "but each one in his own order" just as it is written. What say you then--is Christ in you having returned, or not? Will you give witness to His presence here, having first gone to be with the Father promising to return--or will you deny?

As for your "comparison to Adam" (above), have you not also described, since Adam "each one" living and dying spiritual and physical--"in his own order?" That is the "order" (the timing). By this I know that you have seen what is true, but perhaps have not acknowledged it. Which I attribute to the "false teachings" of certain who brought "destructive doctrines" into the early church as Peter foretold and warned, that are still taught and believed event to this day.

Scott- Christ's spirit lives in me. I also expect his actual return.

 

[PS95]

So, in your rebellious view, you say it's OK to rebel against God's written Word, specifically what Apostle Paul commanded for leaders in Christ's Church...

1 Tim 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV


You need to learn how to properly quote someone also, seeing as how you omitted the latter part of my statement. Here's is what I had said...

Our preacher in the Church I was raised in would only speak harshly about the sin, showing it from Bible Scripture, while his eyes focused back and forth on the one guilty in the congregation. All one had to do was to look at where he was staring and you'd know who he was talking about.

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
I'd be very... very... careful when listening to those like Behold that come here pushing more doctrines from Judaism than actually from New Testament Christianity. The doctrine of men called 'Soul Sleep' is an old tradition from Jewish traditions, as they believe our soul part is made up of material matter, which is a crazy, primitive, carnal seated idea that goes directly against Bible Scripture, even against some Old Testament Bible Scriptures, like Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 and 1 Kings 17.

The mennonite preacher- if he did that without first speaking privately with that person, he is wrong. You agree?
As to Behold- no he doesn't think Christians sin. ............. they should never repent either.

 

[Behold]

So, in your rebellious view, you say it's OK to rebel against God's written Word, specifically what Apostle Paul commanded for leaders in Christ's Church...

I have Paul's viewpoint, as my only theology.
If you consider that rebellious then i gues you do.

You need to learn how to properly quote someone also, seeing as how you omitted the latter part of my statement. Here's is what I had said...

If a Pastor or Minister is endlessly teaching on or about "sin" then they are a Law obsessed heretic.
The Law only brings death,....and that is why you have to avoid these types of condemnation builders.

Chrsitians are made free from the Law, and are made free from Sin.
A Real Christian, is going to teach deliverance, and victory over sin.
A false pastor, a Legalist, a Forum heretic, .... is going to talk endlessly about sin and sinning and confessing and repenting.
And you would know @Davy

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
I'd be very... very... careful when listening to those like Behold that come here pushing more doctrines from Judaism than actually from New Testament Christianity.

@Davy.......you're a dishonest person, according to your post.
I dont "push Judaism".....I only Teach Paul's Theology.
See, You can't quote me, but you can accuse me falsly because you're a carnal religious deceiver.

The doctrine of men called 'Soul Sleep' is an old tradition from Jewish traditions,

I Dont teach soul sleep.
"Soul sleep" came from Origen, a 1st centry religious lunatic, who created this unbiblical concept.
The MaryCult evolved his idea into their "purgatory" teaching.

 

[Davy]

The mennonite preacher- if he did that without first speaking privately with that person, he is wrong. You agree?

Not among Christ's Church I do not agree with you. I agree with Apostle Paul...

1 Tim 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV

Addressing sin with the sinner in private only is a trait of modern psychology, NOT God's Word. Remember what Jesus warned to those whom He loves...

Rev 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV

If one of His cannot take rebuke for a sin, then it suggests that person is NOT of God, but is rebellious, and defies correction. Look what God said about ole' king Saul who stopped heeding Him...

1 Sam 15:23
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, He hath also rejected thee from being king.
KJV

And of course, the REBUKE happens while the sinner REFUSES to admit their sin and not repent, and make a change.

As to Behold- no he doesn't think Christians sin. ............. they should never repent either.

Not just him, but all here that hold to man's false Once Saved Always Saved doctrines. Once someone has been told they can never fall away once they believe on Jesus no matter what they do, is actually a doctrine directly from the devil and his children. Sadly, many of Satan's workers have crept into quite a few churches today that don't stay with the actual written Bible Scripture. So their congregations rarely learn what the real Bible actually teaches as written.

I recall a witness by Jim Baker of the PTL club that served in prison for financial fraud. One of the main doctrines taught on PTL was the false Pre-trib Rapture theory. Baker, after he had been in prison for a while said it gave him time to really study The Bible, and that he discovered the Pre-trib Rapture theory is a false idea, not written in God's Word. He now preaches a Post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of the Church, which is actually what is written in God's Word. So imagine, all those years and into adulthood, he'd been lied to with that false Pre-trib Rapture theory from men, and never actually bothered to study God's written Word thoroughly enough to know that doctrine isn't Biblical.

 

[Davy]

I have Paul's viewpoint, as my only theology.

Well of course you are telling a LIE, because you reject what Paul said to do per the following...

1 Tim 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV

 

[Behold]

Well of course you are telling a LIE, because you reject what Paul said to do per the following...

1 Tim 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV

Read carefully,

There is a difference between constantly "preaching against sin", to a congregation..... vs, calling out a specifiic sinner.

Paul called out Peter one time for a certain carnal issue......that Peter was committing.

Ive called many out, in life and on forums.
In fact, I teach that Paul teaches that people who create strife on forums or in a local congregation..., by teaching their cult nonsense, should not be allowed to do it.
This particular Forum welcomes anything and everything that claims to be a "chrisitan".
So, in your case, that works out in your favor.

Understand.. that i didnt post that a Pastor should not correct A sinner, in private or openly before the congregation.
However, You have to be careful emarrassing someone in '2025 before the entire congreation, as some of them will go out to their Truck, get their Gun and kill you.
We are living in the end times and people are under a lot of stress while the Devil is raging all around us...and you have to be careful in real life.
See, you have to discern people in real life, before you decide to humilate them in front of your church.
You'll live longer tthat way. @Davy

Always remember that you have to be "wise as a serpent and harmless as a Dove" vs beating people with a Bible, because you feel you should, in real life.......before their Congregation.

Now what i posted to you, is that if the Pastor is preaching on Sin.....and this is their core theology.....which is why they are always putting this on the entire congregation, then this Pastor is a heretic.
They are a Legalist, who is chasing the Law, because they don't understand God's Grace.

 

[jaybird]

The Essenes were a monastic sect which the secret fraternities, like the Masonic Lodge, tries to claim a heritage from. So does the Rosicrucian Order (AMORC) fraternity claim that also. I know, I've see writings by them from their members.

my cousin says he is descended directly from charlamagne, he is also a methhead and mentally challenged.

So I would not call that "circumstantial evidence".

Jesus says things that are not found in the bible, but found in the DSS, but its not circumstantial evidence? am i understanding this correct? if so what exactly would be circumstantial evidence?

And the writings of the Dead Sea Scrolls (minus the Bible fragments found among the sect) were NOT the authors of The Bible.

no one said they were, and they were not the authors of the bible fragments either, they were scribes.
and for what its worth the theology writings gives you a look into what they believed, such as they called themselves a "new covenant" community.

 

[Behold]

You will know them by the love among the members.<- Jesus said that.
I never see that here.

Jesus said "Brethren", not members.
Members are a part of FaceBook.
Christians on Christian Forums, are "Brethren".
But here is the issue.
Who isn't a "Brethren"? Who isn't born again.....on this Forum?
So, there are many, and they bring false theology, and personal opinions......and that causes STRIFE, which is seen and felt as hatred and anger and simillar.

This is a Forum, that allows anything and everything to park and preach.........just as long as the person claims to be a "christian".
So, that is why this forum is always out of control.

 

[Davy]

Read carefully,
....

I did... read what Apostle Paul said, very carefully.

And you should... heed what Paul said if you are a leader in a Church.

1 Tim 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV

 

[Behold]

I did... read what Apostle Paul said, very carefully.

And you should... heed what Paul said if you are a leader in a Church.

1 Tim 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV

As i said.....i do.
But you have to use discernment.......Paul also said that.. regarding not just people but when studying scriptures.