The Wrath of God - How is it love?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
8,936
5,047
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
The first death is inevitable, the second death isn't. It's our choice to accept redemption or not.
I guess it’s good to contemplate what would have happened if the rebels had not made the choices they did.

Death was only inevitable after they introduced sin into the world. Death is sin’s wages....so if the first humans had simply told the devil to “get lost”.....the outcome would have been no inevitable death....no sickness, old age or thousands of ways to lose your life.

Imagine living in paradise on earth forever with delicious healthy food, unpolluted water and fresh air? We have no idea what that is like....we never got to live that life. Everything on this planet has been polluted by sinful, greedy humans....and God will be fully justified in removing them as He demonstrated before in Noah’s day and with the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. When people are beyond hope, sometimes you just have to wipe the slate clean and start again.
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
15,670
9,632
113
Sunshine
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
"Death" NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible!

Rev 20 They will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER!

Billions of humans will wish they don't exist!
I know Jack, I know, you are persuaded that billions will get around with a red hot skewer up their backsides for eternity while their feet are roasting on red hot metal plates with needle sharp spikes protruding.
In your view They have been given immortality just like God has so that they will be cognisant of their suffering to the max, forever......unless of course they jump through your hoops of believing all that you believe.

Thank you for the encouragement and unfailing drawing power of your construct!
 

pandaflower

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2025
1,926
1,608
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I guess it’s good to contemplate what would have happened if the rebels had not made the choices they did.

Death was only inevitable after they introduced sin into the world. Death is sin’s wages....so if the first humans had simply told the devil to “get lost”.....the outcome would have been no inevitable death....no sickness, old age or thousands of ways to lose your life.

Imagine living in paradise on earth forever with delicious healthy food, unpolluted water and fresh air? We have no idea what that is like....we never got to live that life. Everything on this planet has been polluted by sinful, greedy humans....and God will be fully justified in removing them as He demonstrated before in Noah’s day and with the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. When people are beyond hope, sometimes you just have to wipe the slate clean and start again.
But, it was all Gods plan.
Sin entered the world through one man.

That tells us,sin pre existed Eden.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ProDeo

indentured servant

New Member
Aug 28, 2025
28
14
3
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
We have often heard about these two aspects of God's character, His love and His wrath.

The concept is acceptable to many, citing biblical sources to confirm.
But to others it is troubling, noting that the character of God does not allow for such a contradiction.

Since God is love, His wrath also needs to be a manifestation of love.
But that's not the description given by many. They describe an anger driven rage, which is obviously not love.

How do we resolve this contradiction?

The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[
"How do we resolve this contradiction?'

First, you must understand, it is not a contradiction.

There is a purpose for His wrath.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
8,936
5,047
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
What they heard (internally) was condemnation and their defence was to blame, to find fault, Adam with God, Adam with Eve, Eve with the serpent. This was now their new 'go to' and it initiated the human default.
So they were all talking to themselves (internally)? They never heard an audible word? Is that the story told in Genesis?
The death penalty could be considered condemnation, don’t you think?
God on the other hand sort them out 'as was his custom' for fellowship, even while he knew of their estrangement. It wasn't for condemnation as A&E assumed.
Who said? Is it up to you to change a clearly stated narrative? Obey and live, compared to disobey and die is a fairly simple concept.
God wanted fellowship, they heard condemnation before they were in each other's presence.
He wanted nothing to do with them, because he banished them from the beautiful home he had so lovingly prepared for them. They threw it all back in his face. God wanted to rescue their children, forced into this inevitably deadly situation for which they bore no guilt. Abel showed us that, even if your parents don’t measure up, that is no excuse for you to follow their bad example as his older brother did. It was Cain and Abel who offered up sacrifices to God out of gratitude for what they had. Their parents OTOH, had to make the contrast from their former life to the one they now had to endure, rather than enjoy.

There is a reason why God chose Christ as a “mediator” for us...the human race could no longer come before the Creator without a “go between”.....(1 Tim 2:5) Sin is a barrier. This third party was the means by which the two estranged parties could communicate...
We hear that God is too Holy to countenance sin yet he sort A&E's company knowing their predicament.
He did not seek their company at all...where are you getting this stuff?
He guided them for the sake of their children, plunged into this predicament through no fault on their part.
He planned a rescue mission and mentioned the mechanics of it in Gen 3:15, which remained a mystery till Christ came. He would redeem mankind with an offering that would balance the scales of his perfect justice.
The consequence promised if they ate still applied but promises were made to remedy their situation.
The remedy was a very long way off......it took 4000 years for the Messiah to appear the first time.....and another 2000 years to wait for his return. Any idea why it took so long? The Bible tells us.
A parallel: Jesus sort us out. He came and mingled with us; pressed the flesh so to speak and fulfilled those promises made in Eden.
This is not a parallel at all, but a rescue mission, well planned and executed. (no pun intended)

God sent Jesus to redeem the life that Adam lost for all his offspring.....he bought it back by paying the ransom demanded....a sinless life for a sinless life.....balancing the scales of his Father’s perfect justice.

None of what you wrote s biblically based.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ProDeo

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
8,936
5,047
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
But, it was all Gods plan.
Sin entered the world through one man.
But it didn’t have to end as it did...it wasn’t planned, but planned for. There were several outcomes that could have taken place because of free will. God planned for all contingencies, so that whatever the humans chose to do, he was prepared for it.

What if the devil had thought twice about his plan to hijack the human race for his own selfish ends and decided not to go through with it?

What if the woman had rejected the devil’s temptation and refused to eat the forbidden fruit?

What if Adam had rejected his wife’s offer of the fruit and sided with his God instead?

Sin is said to have entered into the world through the man...not the devil or the woman. Can you tell me why? (Rom 5:12)
That tells us,sin pre existed Eden.
Sin only pre-existed Eden as a concept.....not a reality. The devil was the first sinner, but he was not in heaven at the time. He was a covering cherub with guardianship duties in Eden, observing all that transpired, and he began contemplating something that he should not have....(James 1:13-15)
 

ProDeo

Well-Known Member
Nov 20, 2024
1,813
1,503
113
51
Deventer
Faith
Christian
Country
Netherlands
How do you understand the Ananias and Sapphira event?

Content might help

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.

Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Acts 5:4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”
Acts 5:5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.

-----

Acts 4 describes a situation the Holy Spirit was mighty present, when God is so near better be without sin. Peter knew Ananias was lying, the Holy Spirit must have told Peter.
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
15,670
9,632
113
Sunshine
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
So they were all talking to themselves (internally)? They never heard an audible word? Is that the story told in Genesis?
The death penalty could be considered condemnation, don’t you think?
They never heard an audible word rather sin shifted their perception...both of God, others and themselves. It made them self centred rather than other centred. Their default was now selfish and fearful and their defence mechanism is hiding and fear with self as the priority. They are now hearing a different drummer so to speak than when God created them.

The whole 'born again' thing is really about introducing a new reality, perhaps one could say the original reality, one of selflessness and fearlessness. It's a spiritual rebirth where one hears and sees with 'new' ears and eyes. The reality of this phenomena (born again) is manifest not so much in the yada yada of born again but in the manifestation of the qualities mentioned above. It is definitely not the adoption of prescribed theological positions.
Who said? Is it up to you to change a clearly stated narrative? Obey and live, compared rto disobey and die is a fairly simple concept.
God is not in the business of condemnation.
He did not seek their company at all...where are you getting this stuff?
Genesis 3:8
The remedy was a very long way off......it took 4000 years for the Messiah to appear the first time.....and another 2000 years to wait for his return. Any idea why it took so long? The Bible tells us.
When the fulness of time had come God sent his Son Galatians 4:4
None of what you wrote s biblically based.
hmmm, I wonder which 'voice' you are hearing?
The 'biblically based' claim is wide and open to interpretation. Slavery was biblically based. Patriarchy which dominated women and children is biblically based. War is biblically based etc. In fact, by selectively quoting the scriptures or shifting the context, one can make any case one wants.
Sooo, the expression 'biblically based' is a straw man constructed to silence the other or to attempt to make certain claims 'irrefutable'
It is a card only the uninformed use.....and might I add, to a varying degree of success amongst the ignorant or gullible.
 
Last edited:

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They never heard an audible word rather sin shifted their perception...both of God, others and themselves.
I have not heard this idea before. Is there biblical evidence?
I thought that when Adam walked with God in the cool of that day that they were speaking to one another. (audibly)

[
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aunty Jane

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"How do we resolve this contradiction?'

First, you must understand, it is not a contradiction.

There is a purpose for His wrath.
Welcome to the forum.

How can you say that love and wrath are NOT a contradiction?

What is the purpose of wrath?

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
Does God operate at a lower standard than He holds us to?

We are also taught that revenge is a sin.
Again, does God operate at a lower standard than He holds us to?

[
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Have you read his testimony,

Why I Don’t Think I’ll Claim To Be Christian ?​

No. But I think I know what he is saying.
I'm not comfortable with the label "Christian" either.

I'm familiar enough with him to know that he's a solid believer.


[
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,808
5,942
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I know Jack, I know, you are persuaded that billions will get around with a red hot skewer up their backsides for eternity while their feet are roasting on red hot metal plates with needle sharp spikes protruding.
In your view They have been given immortality just like God has so that they will be cognisant of their suffering to the max, forever......unless of course they jump through your hoops of believing all that you believe.

Thank you for the encouragement and unfailing drawing power of your construct!
No I don't believe your fairy tale imagination. I believe Jesus!

Matthew 25:32-41
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. ...

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
 
Last edited:

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,808
5,942
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No. But I think I know what he is saying.
I'm not comfortable with the label "Christian" either.

I'm familiar enough with him to know that he's a solid believer.

That shouldn't surprise any Christian here whatsoever.
 
Last edited:

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Have you read his testimony,

Why I Don’t Think I’ll Claim To Be Christian ?​

Is this what you are referring to? Where's the problem?
Did you read anything past the headline?

Why I Don't Think I'll Claim To Be Christian - Brad Jersak​

In 1972, I came to belief in Christ and consciously prayed for God's saving grace to come into my life. I was baptized on the confession of my faith in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Later, was welcomed into membership at Calvary Baptist Church. After transferring membership to Bethel Mennonite Church, I also went on staff and was ordained as a Reverend by the Conference of Mennonites in BC. My ordination was also recognized by the Christian Ministers Association after we planted Fresh Wind Christian Fellowship. Many moons later, I was chrismated into the Eastern Orthodox Church (again, upon confession of the Symbol of Faith) and later, was ordained as a Reader.

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian. Many who say, 'Lord, Lord' will prove to be strangers before Christ on the Last Day.

During the course of these assorted ministries, I prophesied in Jesus' name, cast out demons (or at least thought I did) in Jesus' name, even did the odd wonder in Jesus' name. Taught in his name, evangelized in his name, pastored in his name, counseled in his name, prayed in his name.

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian. Many who serve 'In his name,' will prove to be strangers before Christ on the Last Day.

The stubborn fact is that it not by our claims, but by our fruit that Jesus recognizes living faith. Nor will the fruit he seeks be our spiritual pedigree or our relentless religiosity. It seems that he will actually be looking for the fruit of the grace of the Holy Spirit in our lives, whatever that means.

Claiming the fruit does not allow me to claim to be Christian. Only bearing the fruit will count on the last day.

The fruit of the grace of God's spirit cannot grow from the flesh of self-righteousness, striving or zeal. It can only grow on branches grafted to the Tree of Life, the Cross of Christ. Paul sure knew this:
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
(Philipiians 3:3-7)
I have never renounced my prayers of faith for grace; I have never renounced my baptism or confession or ordination; I have never renounced my faith in the good news of Christ. I still love Jesus, preach the good news and occasionally find the grace to surrender to his transforming love.

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian.

While Christ warns us not to disown him before men, let he disown us before his Father (Matt. 10:33) ... and this I will not do. As my friend Sean says, 'neither brashly presuming nor cowardly denying.' For me, that's a given. Giving up my self-claims are not a repudiation of my Christ-claims. Not identifying as a Christian is not the same as dissociating from Christ before men. The latter does matter.



I know some readers value those great lists about our identity in Christ.They usually start with something like "I am a child of God. I am the righteousness of Christ ..." (and yes, there are ample biblical proof-texts for each claim).

"I am, I am, I am..." It feels a little too close to either Jesus' 'I am' statements in John or Satan's (supposedly) 'I will' statements in Isaiah 14. What's with the obsession with 'I' and 'MY' identity? In the Gospels, the real question was Christ's identity ... 'Who do you say that I AM?' As well intentioned as these identity lists are for people who feel like they never measure up, I can't help but think they reinforce that very problem. Maybe somehow theologically or ontologically, we want to positively claim our identity in Christ so ... why? So we'll act better? So we'll remember how we should be living but aren't? Or don't need to live because of some magic imputation in heaven?

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian.

So I won't. It seems that our self-claims to faith have actually done a great deal of harm. The politician, the businessman, the evangelist ... when do they ever claim to be Christian when it's not about trying to build the base or sign the contract or take the offering? Can you think of one reason why we would even bring it up that does not have something to do with establishing leverage for ourselves? The claim, "I'm a Christian" seems to preface all manner of intolerance, bigotry and fraud. Perhaps it raises suspicion for good reason. We used to use the fish symbol to identify other believers secretly in times of persecution. Now we use it on our business cards to ... what? Let others know that I would never overcharge them or fail to make a payment or break a contract? Perhaps worldly judges should hold us to that?

At first I thought, claims to my Christian faith are not up to me; they are up to other people who observe me. Let them perceive by my fruit whether I am Christian or not. Claim nothing. Let the jury decide.

But the problem with that is the jury is generally misinformed and unqualified. Claiming that I am Christian or not for me is above their pay grade too. Their verdict for or against, their claim that I am or am not Christian ... strike it from the court record. His Honor alone knows the heart and has explicitly forbidden us from taking his seat. For a Christian to sit in the seat of judgment is, by definition, an oxymoron, since Christ himself issued a direct command against it. Francis was right: "Who am I to judge?"

Of course, I could cite those who claim I am a wonderful Christian ... practically a saint! But if I present their case to those I've hurt or offended through the years, they would truthfully and utterly falsify the claim. They could present solid evidence that I'm a hypocrite. And I could also cite those who say I'm a false teacher or a deceiver, but presented before the right collection of friends and colleagues, those accusations would be washed away, either by counter-evidence or at least by grace and love. No, friends and foes alike have insufficient evidence to condemn or congratulate our faith as hypocrisy or holiness. They can say mean things or pay great homage, but none of this allows me to claim to be Christian.

The apostle is clear: there is one Judge who can discern the fruit from the false. And He's not saying just yet. If there's fruit that lasts, it will be the fruit of grace alone, Christ alone. Not my claims or yours. John 1 says that those who receive Christ have the right to be called 'children of God' ... but it doesn't say, 'I have the right to call myself ...' It means that God will be righteous in calling us his children because of grace alone, Christ alone.

In the mean time, until further notice, I don't think I'll claim to be Christian. I've been given a different task: sharing the good news that God is love and that love looks exactly like Jesus.

Thought experiment: what if every time we felt the urge to claim to be Christian, we said that instead. To our neighbors: "God is love and that love looks exactly like Jesus." Our Christian neighbors, who might agree but are often waiting for the 'but ...' statements which divide us. Or our poor neighbors, for whom Jesus and the prophets made some claims on us. Or our gay neighbors, many of whom would agree and would surely welcome any change from bigotry. Or our Muslim neighbors, who might not agree but would certainly appreciate that more than hate-filled fear-mongering. And so on.

My point is that we might do well to take a break from claims of Christianity for ourselves (or our nation!) and refocus them on God's Christlike love, thus coming under that grace ourselves. Lord knows we all need it.

SOURCE LINK

[
 
Last edited:
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: Azim and Brakelite

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,808
5,942
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have never renounced my prayers of faith for grace; I have never renounced my baptism or confession or ordination; I have never renounced my faith in the good news of Christ. I still love Jesus, preach the good news and occasionally find the grace to surrender to his transforming love.
You mean Jesus, God of the Bible Who preached Hell Fire? You mean Jesus, Author of the Christian Bible? You said you're not even convinced that God wanted us to have the Bible!
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
15,670
9,632
113
Sunshine
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
I have not heard this idea before. Is there biblical evidence?
I thought that when Adam walked with God in the cool of that day that they were speaking to one another. (audibly)

[
No doubt Adam had many conversations with God audibly before the fall.
What I addressed was after the fall, not before it and not about anything audible but what they 'heard' in their reality.
Here's an attempt to describe how and what they 'heard'
Before the fall all was harmony with Man and the created order (environment and animals), Man and God and Man with Woman, they heard the 'drummer' of selflessness.
After the fall there was anxiety, they hid and when confronted by God they blamed. They now heard a different drummer, the one of self interest, the one of survival of the fittest.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,808
5,942
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No doubt Adam had many conversations with God audibly before the fall.
What I addressed was after the fall, not before it and not about anything audible but what they 'heard' in their reality.
Here's an attempt to describe how and what they 'heard'
Before the fall all was harmony with Man and the created order (environment and animals), Man and God and Man with Woman, they heard the 'drummer' of selflessness.
After the fall there was anxiety, they hid and when confronted by God they blamed. They now heard a different drummer, the one of self interest, the one of serval of the fittest.
Who told you all that???
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
15,670
9,632
113
Sunshine
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
No I don't believe your fairy tale imagination. I believe Jesus!

Matthew 25:32-41
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. ...

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Ohhhh, when you said 'my fairytale imagination' I thought for a moment maybe I got my description about God frying folk wrong. Perhaps you thought he was lining them up for tea and scones? .....but no, unfortunately you have confirmed my original suspicions in your post above .....and your understanding of everlasting fire means more than the tea being too hot....and more in line with my original description seeing you often use the word tortured in conjunction with the everlasting fire.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen