The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[Hiddenthings]

I think in hindsight we may view it as such, but I think for those primitive Christians in their early growth and understanding, there would have been a certain compelling fear of judgement that coloured their future behaviour and loyalties. Such fear, today I believe is unjustified knowing and experiencing the all pervading love of Christ. Not to say judgement is a false narrative, but rather mercy and grace is a greater catalyst for righteousness and faithfulness.

And if the same judgements applied today?

Not only the "whole church" heard these matters (verse11) but the public as well. The awful and remarkable deaths of the two liars
impressed all with the power and holiness of Yahweh...Rev. 22:15...should hold some perspective for future events.

A sobering reminder, I'd say.

 

[Brakelite]

God's not warm and fuzzy.

True.

He's not all love all the time

Yes He is. God is love. Period. Everything He does, everything He says, is driven and informed by self sacrificing love.

 

[Hiddenthings]

True.

Yes He is. God is love. Period. Everything He does, everything He says, is driven and informed by self sacrificing love.

The real challenge lies in recognizing the God of love within the God of judgment. His loving purpose underlies everything He does, even when we cannot fully perceive it.

 

[Brakelite]

And if the same judgements applied today?

Not only the "whole church" heard these matters (verse11) but the public as well. The awful and remarkable deaths of the two liars
impressed all with the power and holiness of Yahweh...Rev. 22:15...should hold some perspective for future events.

A sobering reminder, I'd say.

Yes. But let us not think that such judgements, or executions of judgement, are done arbitrarily or without a large proportion of reluctance and sorrow. As scripture says, the infliction of suffering and death and punishment by God ultimately is a strange act to Him. It is necessary in context of the times in which it takes place, but not indicative of God's actual essential and inherent character. (Isaiah 28:21)

 

[quietthinker]

The remarkable display of the supreme power and authority of the One they worshipped inspired deep reverence among the believers. This incident served not only as a warning to the church but also as a profound lesson in godliness. It underscored the necessity of complete and undivided loyalty to God, reminding them that while Yahweh is a God of grace and mercy, He is equally a God of justice and judgment.

The assumption that their death was initiated from God flies in the face of Jesus statement 'I have come that they may have life abundantly'
God does not induce fear which is what was produced when these guys dropped dead.
What is reinforced in this event is Jesus' statement prefacing 'I have come that they may have life abundantly' is 'the thief comes only to steal, kill and destroy'.
I'm assuming we all know whom Jesus is referencing as 'the thief'

 

[Hiddenthings]

The assumption that their death was initiated from God flies in the face of Jesus statement 'I have come that they may have life abundantly'
God does not induce fear which is what was produced when these guys dropped dead.
What is reinforced in this event is Jesus' statement prefacing 'I have come that they may have life abundantly' is 'the thief comes only to steal, kill and destroy'.
I'm assuming we all know whom Jesus is referencing as 'the thief'

I’m less focused on whether God directly caused the deaths of these two, since there is ample evidence that He has, and will, take a life when He deems it necessary. The lesson and reminder here highlight how their unity, intended to uphold God’s principles, had instead fostered a spirit of enmity. This reverberated throughout the community, both near and far, demonstrating that God truly means what He says, even when we try to lessen the impact of His words.

 

[Hiddenthings]

“How is it that you have agreed together to test” Acts 5:9

It's no different to Adam & Eve, Israel in the Wilderness...the Greek peirasai, meaning “to try, to prove, or to put to the test.” Clearly, they had united in an attempt to challenge God, perhaps questioning the authority and power given to the apostles. In doing so, they repeated the error of the first humans, who sought honor and wisdom at the urging of the serpent, rather than following the ways of the Spirit (Gen 3:6).

It reminds me of the man picking up sticks on the sabbath.

 

[quietthinker]

Brad labeled himself! And in so doing is not a Christian. As he said.

God labels people . If you read the OT you'll see he labeled them and then he killed them.

God,who was Jesus in the flesh, drowned the whole world. Except for 8 people,sinners,so the human fallen race could start a new. As sinners first.

Your liberal ideology isn't in scripture. It's sophistry.

You're promoting heresy and blasphemy. And you label others crudely because we see that

God's not warm and fuzzy. He's not all love all the time

One would have to read the Bible to face that. Because he tells us so.
The next time God destroys us? He'll burn us alive!

Feel the love.
The whole world goes to Hell at once.

If I pick up a book with spaceships on the cover, I want spaceships. If I see one with dragons, I want there to be dragons inside the book. Proper labeling. Ethical labeling. I don't want to open up my cornflakes and find that they're full of pebbles... You need to respect the reader enough not to call it something it isn't.
Margaret Atwood


We're done.
It isn't right to continue an exchange with an unbeliever of scripture.

The God we ultimately worship is defined by the character we defend he has. This definition is also manifested in our attitudes and behaviour towards 'the least of these my brethren....Jesus.
Jesus warned us, 'be careful HOW you hear' Luke 18:18

Here's an example of poor 'hearing'.
After A&E took the forbidden fruit what they 'heard' was the reason for their justification for blaming each other and God....in spite of God seeking them out, bearing gifts and making wonderful promises.

 

[quietthinker]

The real challenge lies in recognizing the God of love within the God of judgment. His loving purpose underlies everything He does, even when we cannot fully perceive it.

Our 'natural' definitions/ understanding of God's love, of his justice and judgement require revisiting. Without this we will superimpose/ project fallen human assumptions onto God.
How do we revisit this? By hearing and observing the only eyewitness and unmitigated revelation of God....namely, Jesus.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here's an example of poor 'hearing'.
After A&E took the forbidden fruit what they 'heard' was the reason for their justification for blaming each other and God....in spite of God seeking them out, bearing gifts and making wonderful promises.

You’ll have to explain that statement.....why was God seeking them out? The all knowing God knew what they had done, but pressed them to make confession....instead, all he got was the blame game.

Their eviction from the garden was swift and without mercy because they didn’t have a single excuse to break the only negative command that God gave them.

The two trees were there in the garden to test out their free willed choices. One tree was death-dealing...the other life-giving......by their conduct they would demonstrate their loyalty and appreciation (or lack of it) to the Creator who had given them a beautiful home, abundant food, and the gift of life itself with all their senses to enjoy creation without a knowledge of evil.

These were the gifts and the wonderful promises, but they were conditional, and once God’s Law was broken, they lost everything that was important. The ground onto which they had been cast was now “cursed” so that growing food grain on cursed ground would yield very little for their labours.

The death penalty was implemented, but it was to be a slow decline into old age, sickness, and eventual death for the majority. The murder of Abel by his jealous brother, would have been a huge wake-up call. Humans could cause the death of other humans by premeditated violence! Humanity was to experience the multitude of ways that humans can die. Evil would be experienced in all aspects of human behavior.....but it didn’t have to be that way. If only they had stayed loyal to their God, and not been side tracked by selfish interests. Free will was meant to be a precious gift, but disobedience turned it into a curse.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Our 'natural' definitions/ understanding of God's love, of his justice and judgement require revisiting. Without this we will superimpose/ project fallen human assumptions onto God.
How do we revisit this? By hearing and observing the only eyewitness and unmitigated revelation of God....namely, Jesus.

I agree, though it’s worth noting the contrast: Jesus welcoming little children to sit on his lap, compared with Jesus driving people out of the Temple with a whip made of small, twisted reeds (John 2:15).

Listening and observing shows us that Christ’s zeal for His Father’s house far surpasses our own, and who among us is truly willing to endure the stripes he bore when he was scourged with like chords?

To be straight, the things written in this forum can hardly capture the reality of Christ’s return. Many will be filled with fear, and rightly so...myself included!

 

[Brakelite]

You’ll have to explain that statement.....why was God seeking them out? The all knowing God knew what they had done, but pressed them to make confession....instead, all he got was the blame game.

Their eviction from the garden was swift and without mercy because they didn’t have a single excuse to break the only negative command that God gave them.

The two trees were there in the garden to test out their free willed choices. One tree was death-dealing...the other life-giving......by their conduct they would demonstrate their loyalty and appreciation (or lack of it) to the Creator who had given them a beautiful home, abundant food, and the gift of life itself with all their senses to enjoy creation without a knowledge of evil.

These were the gifts and the wonderful promises, but they were conditional, and once God’s Law was broken, they lost everything that was important. The ground onto which they had been cast was now “cursed” so that growing food grain on cursed ground would yield very little for their labours.

The death penalty was implemented, but it was to be a slow decline into old age, sickness, and eventual death for the majority. The murder of Abel by his jealous brother, would have been a huge wake-up call. Humans could cause the death of other humans by premeditated violence! Humanity was to experience the multitude of ways that humans can die. Evil would be experienced in all aspects of human behavior.....but it didn’t have to be that way. If only they had stayed loyal to their God, and not been side tracked by selfish interests. Free will was meant to be a precious gift, but disobedience turned it into a curse.

The first death is inevitable, the second death isn't. It's our choice to accept redemption or not.

 

[Brakelite]

To be straight, the things written in this forum can hardly capture the reality of Christ’s return. Many will be filled with fear, and rightly so...myself included!

If Christ is your Saviour what have you to fear? He is coming to take you home. Not to punish you for sins He himself bore to the grave.

 

[Jack]

"Death" NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible!

Rev 20 They will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER!

Billions of humans will wish they don't exist!

 

[Hiddenthings]

If Christ is your Saviour what have you to fear? He is coming to take you home. Not to punish you for sins He himself bore to the grave.

My fear is a healthy, reverential fear, the same kind my Savior had toward his God.

 

[Jack]

"The Wrath of God - How is it love?"​

Who said it's love, stevie?

 

[Jack]

If Christ is your Saviour what have you to fear? He is coming to take you home. Not to punish you for sins He himself bore to the grave.

He bore our sins with His Blood. Unless we reject Him as many here do.

 

[quietthinker]

You’ll have to explain that statement.

This is the statement...

Here's an example of poor 'hearing'.
After A&E took the forbidden fruit what they 'heard' was the reason for their justification for blaming each other and God....in spite of God seeking them out, bearing gifts and making wonderful promises.

What they heard (internally) was condemnation and their defence was to blame, to find fault, Adam with God, Adam with Eve, Eve with the serpent. This was now their new 'go to' and it initiated the human default.

God on the other hand sought them out 'as was his custom' for fellowship, even while he knew of their estrangement. It wasn't for condemnation as A&E assumed.
God wanted fellowship, they heard condemnation before they were in each other's presence.

We hear that God is too Holy to countenance sin yet he sought A&E's company knowing their predicament.
The consequence promised if they ate still applied but promises were made to remedy their situation.

A parallel: Jesus sort us out. He came and mingled with us; pressed the flesh so to speak and fulfilled those promises made in Eden.

 

[pandaflower]

"Death" NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible!

Rev 20 They will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER!

Billions of humans will wish they don't exist!

Think about that.
How's it happen?

 

[quietthinker]

Their eviction from the garden was swift and without mercy because they didn’t have a single excuse to break the only negative command that God gave them.

Could we see it another way?
For instance, God's mercy was on display in that he removed them from the temptation if not possibility to eat of the Tree of a Life.
Could we deduct that had they eaten of the Tree of Life, there would have been no end to a sinful disposition?
I'm not sure if that last posit is valid. I heard it somewhere and thought I'd throw it into the mix of possibilities to chew on.