The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6: 23), but the Bible is specific about what death means.

What did “death” mean to a Jew? What did Jewish Scripture tell God’s people about death?

Eccl 9:1-6; 10....Solomon wrote under inspiration.....
“....Everything that confronts them is vanity, since the same fate comes to all, to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to those who sacrifice and those who do not sacrifice. As are the good, so are the sinners; those who swear are like those who shun an oath. This is an evil in all that happens under the sun, that the same fate comes to everyone. Moreover, the hearts of humans are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. But whoever is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no more reward, and even the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished; never again will they have any share in all that happens under the sun. . . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.” (NRSVUE)
What did ”Sheol” mean to a Jew? It was a place where all the dead unconsciously sleep in death.

What did Solomon write as to the condition of the dead...both righteous and wicked? All go to the same place...”sheol” (translated in Greek as “hades”, and in English as “the grave” in the Jewish Tanakh).

Solomon also wrote about the futility of death in Eccl 3:18-20...
“I said to myself with regard to humans that God is testing them to show that they are but animals. All go to one place, all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals, for all is vanity. (NRSVUE)

Where did God tell Adam he would go when he died?
“By the sweat of your faceyou shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust,and to dust you shall return.”

Seems like a solid answer to the question......so where do Christians get the idea of opposites like “heaven and hell”? It is not a Bible teaching and never was.

It is apparent from Solomon’s words (the wisest man in existence at the time) that God had no “afterlife” as is taught in paganism and Christendom alike. The Bible simply contrasts “life and death”, not “heaven or hell”.
At death everyone goes to the grave, regardless of their status with God......what counts is their status upon their resurrection, which is what the Bible teaches. Resurrection is a return to life, not a continuation of it in a conscious state after death. Jesus calls all the dead from their graves, which means that they are all still in them...they haven’t gone anywhere. (John 5:28-29) He demonstrated how the resurrection was to take place by raising the dead himself. Where were such ones before he restored their lives? Read the account about Lazarus and see where Jesus said he was...(John 11: 11-14)

The faithful are returned to “life”, whilst the unrighteousness enter a period of “judgment”, most having lived and died in places or at times when they never heard of God or his Christ.

Those consigned to “Gehenna” will never wake up. It will be as if they never existed...erased from God’s Memory forever.

In Revelation 20: 14–15, it says, “This is the second death… whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” This is not some nonexistence. A chapter earlier, it says, “They shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The first death is the one we inherited from Adam....a death from which all are resurrected, “both the righteous and the unrighteous” (Acts 24:15).....the second death OTOH, is a permanent punishment...a death from which no resurrection is possible. It is eternal death....what purpose is served by the administration of punishment without any hope of repentance? Is God a sadistic fiend? How is that loving?

Jesus Himself said in Matthew 25: 46 that both the punishment and the life are aiōnios, the exact same word for everlasting. If one is forever, then so is the other. Revelation 14: 11 speaks of no cessation: “The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night.”

“For ever and ever” is how long the wicked will stay dead.
Notice it is “the smoke of their torment” that “ascends forever and ever”....Like a wildfire will leave the smouldering ruins of its path of destruction as reminder of what happened....so “the smoke” of the torment of God’s wrath on wicked humanity will keep reminding us of why it is beneficial to obey God in all things.

Scripture never teaches annihilation. It teaches conscious judgment. God’s holiness demands justice and He has already provided the means of escape through Christ. The real problem is not that Scripture is vague, but that you’re refusing to accept all of it.

‘Refusing to accept the truth’ is epidemic in this world ruled by the one who wants people to believe his lies are actually truth. Life and death are opposites like everything else in a world created by Yahweh.

Death is the opposite of life, and only one entity wants you to believe that “you surely will not die” and that is the lie that started this whole nightmare we call living in his world.

There is clearly no consciousness in death and no need for there to be any. Putting people to “sleep” is more humane than torturing them forever with no way out.

The word used for “torment” is a reference to ancient jailers who used to torment their prisoners with physical torture as part of their role in the judicial system, but rather than the physical torment as the point of reference, it was the condition of one with no way out of the confinement of the prison.

The “torment” of any being relies on their consciousness......but the dead are clearly not conscious according to Solomon.

Jesus’ use of “Gehenna” is completely different to what Christendom teaches it to mean. “Gehenna” is “the lake of fire”...”the second death”, from which no return is possible. There is still only life or death...why would God need to do anything else if justice is served by the death penalty?

 

[Behold]

Free will was a gift but it was conditional,

If Free will is "conditional" then its not free.

 

[Aunty Jane]

However,they did not know how to obey when met with the guile of the serpent who did have knowledge . And knew of that tree.

He led them to follow because they did not possess the mental, intellectual, capacity of discernment.
Meaning,when they didn't know right from wrong,they didn't know what it meant to obey or disobey by conscious choice.

This does not make sense....how are humans created in God’s image if they possessed no intellect or discernment?
Why would God tell them to do something that was impossible for them to obey because they weren’t smart enough to know right from wrong?

God forbidding the tree of knowledge,intellect,means Adam and Eve were intended to live forever without intelligence. Infant consciousness for eternity.

But they were to procreate as well?

God's foreknowledge of all things precludes true free will. As he tells us often.

Again, this does not add up....”Infant consciousness for eternity”? Even in our sinful state we have created a world of super intelligence (AI) under the direction of the god and ruler chosen by our first parents.
God did not create us to be intellectual babies because because he assigned them a task that would involve all the qualities that he himself possesses, and was given to the humans at their creation.

You don’t give assignments to babies and then hold them accountable for failing to do what an adult would do.

Jesus was the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.

This is probably the most misunderstood concept in all of Christendom....so, what does that statement really mean in keeping with the Bible’s entire narrative?
How does the lamb become “slain for the sin of the world” before the sin actually took place?

What is missing in the understanding of this statement that gives the impression that everything was planned by God to fail so that he had the lamb slaughtered before there was even a need for him to be killed?
What is misunderstood is that the “foundation of the world”... is a reference to the establishment of the human race descended from Adam and his wife. “The world” was the world that all humans were born into as descendants of those sinners. It didn’t mean the creation of the planet...but the creation of sinful humankind, trapped in sinful flesh through no fault on their part.

Gen 3:15 was God’s response to the sin of the first humans...a prophesy with far reaching implications for all humans and for the rebel who cause the downfall in Eden.
This is “the foundation of the world”.....the promise of God to provide a rescue mission before Adam and his wife had their defective children, who would need him to undo what Adam had done.

God knew they'd fall for the serpent. That's why the serpent was there. God told him about that particular tree. Which is why it was the one the serpent was in. Of all the trees,he was in the only one that could kill them.

God gave them choices and it was their free willed choices that led to their downfall....satan’s and Adam’s.
God does not interfere with what we choose, but will reward or condemn those who choose to obey, or to disobey him. This is seen all through the Bible.

How can God punish what he caused? Is that justice? Is that loving?

All is planned by God. As he tells us. But we don't believe that?

The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world,just in case?

No, the lamb was not slain “just in case”....his death was offered before the humans produced the now defective human race. (Rom 5:12) Before “sin entered into the world” there was no reason for a rescue mission. God always responded to the choices of his people and acted according to those choices....either with punishment or reward......that is the Bible’s unchanging narrative.

Predestination eliminates the existence of free will which is clearly established in Scripture.

 

[pandaflower]

This does not make sense....how are humans created in God’s image if they possessed no intellect or discernment?
Why would God tell them to do something that was impossible for them to obey because they weren’t smart enough to know right from wrong?

Precisely so.
They became like God after eating. Knowing right from wrong,good and evil.

Why was that forbidden when millennia later after Jesus was killed for sins, we are to strive to achieve the mind of Christ (God made flesh) ?

Again, this does not add up....”Infant consciousness for eternity”? Even in our sinful state we have created a world of super intelligence (AI) under the direction of the god and ruler chosen by our first parents.
God did not create us to be intellectual babies because because he assigned them a task that would involve all the qualities that he himself possesses, and was given to the humans at their creation.

You don’t give assignments to babies and then hold them accountable for failing to do what an adult would do.

This is probably the most misunderstood concept in all of Christendom....so, what does that statement really mean in keeping with the Bible’s entire narrative?
How does the lamb become “slain for the sin of the world” before the sin actually took place?

What is missing in the understanding of this statement that gives the impression that everything was planned by God to fail so that he had the lamb slaughtered before there was even a need for him to be killed?
What is misunderstood is that the “foundation of the world”... is a reference to the establishment of the human race descended from Adam and his wife. “The world” was the world that all humans were born into as descendants of those sinners. It didn’t mean the creation of the planet...but the creation of sinful humankind, trapped in sinful flesh through no fault on their part.

Gen 3:15 was God’s response to the sin of the first humans...a prophesy with far reaching implications for all humans and for the rebel who cause the downfall in Eden.
This is “the foundation of the world”.....the promise of God to provide a rescue mission before Adam and his wife had their defective children, who would need him to undo what Adam had done.

God gave them choices and it was their free willed choices that led to their downfall....satan’s and Adam’s.
God does not interfere with what we choose, but will reward or condemn those who choose to obey, or to disobey him. This is seen all through the Bible.

How can God punish what he caused? Is that justice? Is that loving?

No, the lamb was not slain “just in case”....his death was offered before the humans produced the now defective human race. (Rom 5:12) Before “sin entered into the world” there was no reason for a rescue mission. God always responded to the choices of his people and acted according to those choices....either with punishment or reward......that is the Bible’s unchanging narrative.

That's Genesis.

Predestination eliminates the existence of free will which is clearly established in Scripture.

God tells us he predestined all things.
Why don't we believe him?

 

[Aunty Jane]

If Free will is "conditional" then its not free.

LOL...that is just the point...it never was absolutely “free”....the conditions laid down by the Creator were reasonable limits to the free will he gave to all his intelligent creatures.

It was the abuse of free will that caused the trouble.....God placed the TKGE in the garden because he did not have a right to withhold anything beneficial from his free willed children, like any loving parent....but he put a penalty in place that should have acted as a deterrent for the humans concerning a knowledge that would have introduced absolute chaos into the world, but it wasn’t humans who first rebelled.....it was one of his own spirit sons who deceived the woman as to the consequences of taking something that God had withheld for their benefit. He already stated the penalty and it was carried out....but not immediately.

There were lessons to be learned that would set precedents for all eternity to come....

 

[quietthinker]

Who told you all that???

Why do you want to know that Jack? You wouldn't believe me if I told you anyway!

 

[Aunty Jane]

God tells us what he predestined in his rescue mission, but only after sin entered into the world....not before.

Predestination makes God responsible for all the suffering in the world, and it’s mismanagement in corrupt human rulership and the sad and sorry state of human health, now especially, when there is no excuse for ignorance of any kind. This is why we are in a judgment period, like the people of Noah’s day....they took no notice of Noah and his warning about what was to come....and Jesus said it would be the same at his return (Matt 24:37-39) People today are also ridiculers and scoffers, but will have a very rude awakening when Jesus comes to make them accountable for their beliefs and conduct. Even those who profess the serve the God of the Bible, will be shown in no uncertain terms, the folly of their chosen belief system. (Matt 7:21-23)

How does one serve a god who demonstrates no sense of justice or love in planning such a heinous outcome, and then punishing those who had no say in any of it.....he created them to suffer and die. Why would he do that?

Like I said...it makes no sense.

 

[pandaflower]

God tells us what he predestined in his rescue mission, but only after sin entered into the world....not before.

The Lamb slain before the creation of this world proves that is not accurate.

As Does Ephesians 1, For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love.

Predestination makes God responsible for all the suffering in the world, and it’s mismanagement in corrupt human rulership and the sad and sorry state of human health, now especially, when there is no excuse for ignorance of any kind. This is why we are in a judgment period, like the people of Noah’s day....they took no notice of Noah and his warning about what was to come....and Jesus said it would be the same at his return (Matt 24:37-39) People today are also ridiculers and scoffers, but will have a very rude awakening when Jesus comes to make them accountable for their beliefs and conduct. Even those who profess the serve the God of the Bible, will be shown in no uncertain terms, the folly of their chosen belief system. (Matt 7:21-23)

How does one serve a god who demonstrates no sense of justice or love in planning such a heinous outcome, and then punishing those who had no say in any of it.....he created them to suffer and die. Why would he do that?

Isaiah 45:7

Remember,he created Hell for Satan and his angels.

Then, he decreed we would go there too. When it was initially created for Satan and his angels to suffer there.

We're born condemned. Unless or until God enters us and leads us to Jesus.

And those folk had their names written in the Lambs book of eternal life before the foundation of the world.

Whereas the book of life has the names of all humans to be created ,the Lambs book of eternal life contains an exclusive list. Predestined before this world was made .

Like I said...it makes no sense.

 

[Brakelite]

Is this what you are referring to? Where's the problem?
Did you read anything past the headline?

In 1972, I came to belief in Christ and consciously prayed for God's saving grace to come into my life. I was baptized on the confession of my faith in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Later, was welcomed into membership at Calvary Baptist Church. After transferring membership to Bethel Mennonite Church, I also went on staff and was ordained as a Reverend by the Conference of Mennonites in BC. My ordination was also recognized by the Christian Ministers Association after we planted Fresh Wind Christian Fellowship. Many moons later, I was chrismated into the Eastern Orthodox Church (again, upon confession of the Symbol of Faith) and later, was ordained as a Reader.

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian. Many who say, 'Lord, Lord' will prove to be strangers before Christ on the Last Day.

During the course of these assorted ministries, I prophesied in Jesus' name, cast out demons (or at least thought I did) in Jesus' name, even did the odd wonder in Jesus' name. Taught in his name, evangelized in his name, pastored in his name, counseled in his name, prayed in his name.

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian. Many who serve 'In his name,' will prove to be strangers before Christ on the Last Day.

The stubborn fact is that it not by our claims, but by our fruit that Jesus recognizes living faith. Nor will the fruit he seeks be our spiritual pedigree or our relentless religiosity. It seems that he will actually be looking for the fruit of the grace of the Holy Spirit in our lives, whatever that means.

Claiming the fruit does not allow me to claim to be Christian. Only bearing the fruit will count on the last day.

The fruit of the grace of God's spirit cannot grow from the flesh of self-righteousness, striving or zeal. It can only grow on branches grafted to the Tree of Life, the Cross of Christ. Paul sure knew this:


I have never renounced my prayers of faith for grace; I have never renounced my baptism or confession or ordination; I have never renounced my faith in the good news of Christ. I still love Jesus, preach the good news and occasionally find the grace to surrender to his transforming love.

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian.

While Christ warns us not to disown him before men, let he disown us before his Father (Matt. 10:33) ... and this I will not do. As my friend Sean says, 'neither brashly presuming nor cowardly denying.' For me, that's a given. Giving up my self-claims are not a repudiation of my Christ-claims. Not identifying as a Christian is not the same as dissociating from Christ before men. The latter does matter.



I know some readers value those great lists about our identity in Christ.They usually start with something like "I am a child of God. I am the righteousness of Christ ..." (and yes, there are ample biblical proof-texts for each claim).

"I am, I am, I am..." It feels a little too close to either Jesus' 'I am' statements in John or Satan's (supposedly) 'I will' statements in Isaiah 14. What's with the obsession with 'I' and 'MY' identity? In the Gospels, the real question was Christ's identity ... 'Who do you say that I AM?' As well intentioned as these identity lists are for people who feel like they never measure up, I can't help but think they reinforce that very problem. Maybe somehow theologically or ontologically, we want to positively claim our identity in Christ so ... why? So we'll act better? So we'll remember how we should be living but aren't? Or don't need to live because of some magic imputation in heaven?

None of this allows me to claim to be Christian.

So I won't. It seems that our self-claims to faith have actually done a great deal of harm. The politician, the businessman, the evangelist ... when do they ever claim to be Christian when it's not about trying to build the base or sign the contract or take the offering? Can you think of one reason why we would even bring it up that does not have something to do with establishing leverage for ourselves? The claim, "I'm a Christian" seems to preface all manner of intolerance, bigotry and fraud. Perhaps it raises suspicion for good reason. We used to use the fish symbol to identify other believers secretly in times of persecution. Now we use it on our business cards to ... what? Let others know that I would never overcharge them or fail to make a payment or break a contract? Perhaps worldly judges should hold us to that?

At first I thought, claims to my Christian faith are not up to me; they are up to other people who observe me. Let them perceive by my fruit whether I am Christian or not. Claim nothing. Let the jury decide.

But the problem with that is the jury is generally misinformed and unqualified. Claiming that I am Christian or not for me is above their pay grade too. Their verdict for or against, their claim that I am or am not Christian ... strike it from the court record. His Honor alone knows the heart and has explicitly forbidden us from taking his seat. For a Christian to sit in the seat of judgment is, by definition, an oxymoron, since Christ himself issued a direct command against it. Francis was right: "Who am I to judge?"

Of course, I could cite those who claim I am a wonderful Christian ... practically a saint! But if I present their case to those I've hurt or offended through the years, they would truthfully and utterly falsify the claim. They could present solid evidence that I'm a hypocrite. And I could also cite those who say I'm a false teacher or a deceiver, but presented before the right collection of friends and colleagues, those accusations would be washed away, either by counter-evidence or at least by grace and love. No, friends and foes alike have insufficient evidence to condemn or congratulate our faith as hypocrisy or holiness. They can say mean things or pay great homage, but none of this allows me to claim to be Christian.

The apostle is clear: there is one Judge who can discern the fruit from the false. And He's not saying just yet. If there's fruit that lasts, it will be the fruit of grace alone, Christ alone. Not my claims or yours. John 1 says that those who receive Christ have the right to be called 'children of God' ... but it doesn't say, 'I have the right to call myself ...' It means that God will be righteous in calling us his children because of grace alone, Christ alone.

In the mean time, until further notice, I don't think I'll claim to be Christian. I've been given a different task: sharing the good news that God is love and that love looks exactly like Jesus.

Thought experiment: what if every time we felt the urge to claim to be Christian, we said that instead. To our neighbors: "God is love and that love looks exactly like Jesus." Our Christian neighbors, who might agree but are often waiting for the 'but ...' statements which divide us. Or our poor neighbors, for whom Jesus and the prophets made some claims on us. Or our gay neighbors, many of whom would agree and would surely welcome any change from bigotry. Or our Muslim neighbors, who might not agree but would certainly appreciate that more than hate-filled fear-mongering. And so on.

My point is that we might do well to take a break from claims of Christianity for ourselves (or our nation!) and refocus them on God's Christlike love, thus coming under that grace ourselves. Lord knows we all need it.

[

It isn't surprising that there are some here who don't recognise that the above is written by a Christian, simply because he doesn't claim to be. They don't recognise humility, possibly because they haven't experienced it before... Either in others or themselves.
While it is true that we may recognise good fruit in others, and believe them to be truly Christian, it is also true that we aren't the final arbiters of such decisions. Something for which I, and no doubt others, am eternally grateful. I'm also grateful that it is fruit by which we are judged. Bearing fruit isn't something we have power over. We may place ourselves in an appropriate position whereby fruit may grow, but they don't grow because of anything we do. They grow because of the life giving power of the tree. It is just and fair that the Tree decides who are His.
I'm also grateful that we aren't judged by our doctrines. One who may have seemingly wonderful advantages such as letters after his name and titles before, may think his knowledge is due to his own efforts and pride himself on his accomplishments. I'm grateful that truth and doctrinal understanding doesn't come by much study and education, but rather by revelation. Then we may give all the glory to God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Lamb slain before the creation of this world proves that is not accurate.

As Does Ephesians 1, For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love.

Can we explore what is really written in Ephesians 1:3-14...?

Here it is in context....
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and insight he has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; this is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s own people, to the praise of his glory.” (NRSVUE)

Let’s unpack this a bit......

“just G2531 as He chose G1586 us in Him before G4253 the foundation G2602 of the world, G2889 that we would be holy G40 and blameless G299 before G2714 Him. In love G26 (Strongs)

So we have the situation of being chosen “before the foundation of the world“....but looking up those original language words, a different picture emerges from just a cursive reading in English.

From the foundation(“katabolē”) of the world (kosmos”) means from “throwing or laying down”....

1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
2. of the seed of plants and animals”

So this has to do with the creation of life via the human or earthly means of conception and life involving “seeds”.....all life on planet earth begins with “seeds”.....even humans....so these are the descendants of Adam and his wife as the progenitors of all humanity. The very foundation of the human race from which its first members disqualified themselves.

The “kosmos” can be...

1. “the world, the universe
2. the circle of the earth, the earth”

But is also defined as....

1. “an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government....
   • the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
   • the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
   • world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly”

So in keeping with the context of the entire Bible, the foundation of the world is the beginning of the human race, which started off in perfection with God declaring his whole creation as “very good”.....how could God declare something as “very good” if it was laced with flaws?

How is it loving to punish anyone for something that is not their fault? Isn’t this why God sent his son so that none would have the excuse that they were ignorant of the facts? God has told us of his intentions from the beginning of this life.....after the fall.

Remember,he created Hell for Satan and his angels.

As satan and his minions are spirit beings, then only God can take them out of existence.....they are not mortals like we are who need external means of life support......spirit beings cannot be killed by humans which is why Christ came to earth as a human....so that he could die and give his perfect life for the one we lost.
It was an equal exchange, which is what redemption means....like for like, something exchanged for a thing of equal value. Jesus’ sinless life was given for the sinless life that Adam forfeited for his children.

And those folk had their names written in the Lambs book of eternal life before the foundation of the world.

When did the book of life begin to be written? Not until there were humans whose life course could be evaluated and recorded.....and their names added to a growing list of successful candidates.

No names were written before the people came into existence. God did not direct the creation of every individual, but gave humans the ability to procreate and bring offspring into the world. Each is born with the DNA of their predecessors and create a gene pool that carries inherited traits down through generations.

Whereas the book of life has the names of all humans to be created ,the Lambs book of eternal life contains an exclusive list. Predestined before this world was made .

Again you hark back to predestination when the Bible itself argues with you.....it is illogical and unloving of God to do what you insist that he did. Yet for some reason you cannot see past your beliefs. Predestination is a satanic lie that paints God as a cruel fiend, just as the destination of an eternal fiery hell does.....neither view is supported in the Bible. That is not who God is.....Jesus showed us who God is by his personality and character in human form. He was patient and kind to sinners.....the ones he condemned were the ones who misrepresented his Father.

What is predetermined is the class of individuals who are chosen for a role in heaven as “kings and priests”. (Rev 20:6) These alone, “chosen from among mankind as firstfruits” will make up the ruling authority in the Kingdom of God, bringing all redeemed humanity back into reconciliation with their Creator.
It is not the individuals but the group as a whole who are predetermined. All must endure to the end if they want to be saved. (Matt 24:13) This means that it is possible to lose their place if they let their guard down. (2 Pet 2:20-22)

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus Himself said in Matthew 25: 46 that both the punishment and the life are aiōnios, the exact same word for everlasting

I agree. The punishment, which is death, is forever. Therefore no resurrection from the second death. Note well. The scripture does not say never ending punishing, as in continuing action. It is punishment. And death, after a time (few or many stripes) of real suffering, comes in the form of eventual destruction.
But more importantly, those of you who genuinely believe that God is one that would find satisfaction in inflicting pain and agony and suffering upon anyone, for any reason, without mercy and without end, do not know God well enough. Your perspective as to Who He is and what He is like is frankly a perspective that Satan would be delighted that you cleave to.

 

[pandaflower]

Can we explore what is really written in Ephesians 1:3-14...?

Here it is in context....
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and insight he has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; this is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s own people, to the praise of his glory.” (NRSVUE)

Let’s unpack this a bit......

“just G2531 as He chose G1586 us in Him before G4253 the foundation G2602 of the world, G2889 that we would be holy G40 and blameless G299 before G2714 Him. In love G26 (Strongs)

So we have the situation of being chosen “before the foundation of the world“....but looking up those original language words, a different picture emerges from just a cursive reading in English.

From the foundation(“katabolē”) of the world (kosmos”) means from “throwing or laying down”....

1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
2. of the seed of plants and animals”

So this has to do with the creation of life via the human or earthly means of conception and life involving “seeds”.....all life on planet earth begins with “seeds”.....even humans....so these are the descendants of Adam and his wife as the progenitors of all humanity. The very foundation of the human race from which its first members disqualified themselves.

The “kosmos” can be...

1. “the world, the universe
2. the circle of the earth, the earth”

But is also defined as....

1. “an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government....
   • the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
   • the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
   • world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly”

So in keeping with the context of the entire Bible, the foundation of the world is the beginning of the human race, which started off in perfection with God declaring his whole creation as “very good”.....how could God declare something as “very good” if it was laced with flaws?

How is it loving to punish anyone for something that is not their fault? Isn’t this why God sent his son so that none would have the excuse that they were ignorant of the facts? God has told us of his intentions from the beginning of this life.....after the fall.


As satan and his minions are spirit beings, then only God can take them out of existence.....they are not mortals like we are who need external means of life support......spirit beings cannot be killed by humans which is why Christ came to earth as a human....so that he could die and give his perfect life for the one we lost.
It was an equal exchange, which is what redemption means....like for like, something exchanged for a thing of equal value. Jesus’ sinless life was given for the sinless life that Adam forfeited for his children.

When did the book of life begin to be written? Not until there were humans whose life course could be evaluated and recorded.....and their names added to a growing list of successful candidates.

No names were written before the people came into existence. God did not direct the creation of every individual, but gave humans the ability to procreate and bring offspring into the world. Each is born with the DNA of their predecessors and create a gene pool that carries inherited traits down through generations.


Again you hark back to predestination when the Bible itself argues with you.....it is illogical and unloving of God to do what you insist that he did. Yet for some reason you cannot see past your beliefs. Predestination is a satanic lie that paints God as a cruel fiend, just as the destination of an eternal fiery hell does.....neither view is supported in the Bible. That is not who God is.....Jesus showed us who God is by his personality and character in human form. He was patient and kind to sinners.....the ones he condemned were the ones who misrepresented his Father.

What is predetermined is the class of individuals who are chosen for a role in heaven as “kings and priests”. (Rev 20:6) These alone, “chosen from among mankind as firstfruits” will make up the ruling authority in the Kingdom of God, bringing all redeemed humanity back into reconciliation with their Creator.
It is not the individuals but the group as a whole who are predetermined. All must endure to the end if they want to be saved. (Matt 24:13) This means that it is possible to lose their place if they let their guard down. (2 Pet 2:20-22)

Foundation (of the world)
Strong’s Definitions
καταβολή katabolḗ, kat-ab-ol-ay'; from G2598; a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception:—conceive, foundation.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Isaiah 45:7

Can we explore this verse too?
“I form light and create darkness,I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things.” (HCSB)

The word for ”disaster” there is also translated as “calamity” in other translations, so it isn’t about ”evil” per se….but what God can use in his punishments to demonstrate his justice.

He does not tempt anyone with evil but will bring about justice when it is warranted as he has shown us many times in the Scriptures. (James 1:13-15) We choose a course that brings God’s anger upon us.

Remember,he created Hell for Satan and his angels.

There is no such place as “hell”….it is an satanic invention used by the church to scare the pants off people so that they would be compliant and not question what “the church” couldn’t answer or justify.

Eternal annihilation is what is proposed for the devil and his henchmen…..why is eternal suffering necessary when simply eliminating them from existence does the complete job. They will never be thought of again, nor will any who were led to believe their lies.

Then, he decreed we would go there too. When it was initially created for Satan and his angels to suffer there.

There is no suffering in death….it is a place of unconsciousness. (Eccl 9:5, 10) You have to be alive to suffer and eternal life is granted only to the righteous….the wicked would also have to be granted eternal life if they are to suffer for all time to come. Illogical nonsense.

We're born condemned. Unless or until God enters us and leads us to Jesus.

And those folk had their names written in the Lambs book of eternal life before the foundation of the world.

Whereas the book of life has the names of all humans to be created ,the Lambs book of eternal life contains an exclusive list. Predestined before this world was made .

Sorry, I think that has been sufficiently deconstructed….scripturally.

Foundation (of the world)
Strong’s Definitions
καταβολή katabolḗ, kat-ab-ol-ay'; from G2598; a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception:—conceive, foundation.

You got it…..”conception” “conceive”….the founding of the human race which was to come from Adam and his wife…..who were created, not born from human conception.

 

[pandaflower]

Can we explore this verse too?
“I form light and create darkness,I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things.” (HCSB)

The word for ”disaster” there is also translated as “calamity” in other translations, so it isn’t about ”evil” per se….but what God can use in his punishments to demonstrate his justice.

He does not tempt anyone with evil but will bring about justice when it is warranted as he has shown us many times in the Scriptures. (James 1:13-15) We choose a course that brings God’s anger upon us.

There is no such place as “hell”….it is an satanic invention used by the church to scare the pants off people so that they would be compliant and not question what “the church” couldn’t answer or justify.

Eternal annihilation is what is proposed for the devil and his henchmen…..why is eternal suffering necessary when simply eliminating them from existence does the complete job. They will never be thought of again, nor will any who were led to believe their lies.

There is no suffering in death….it is a place of unconsciousness. (Eccl 9:5, 10) You have to be alive to suffer and eternal life is granted only to the righteous….the wicked would also have to be granted eternal life if they are to suffer for all time to come. Illogical nonsense.

Sorry, I think that has been sufficiently deconstructed….scripturally.

You got it…..”conception” “conceive”….the founding of the human race which was to come from Adam and his wife…..who were created, not born from human conception.

Isaiah 45:7​

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Read full chapter

There is no thing that exists that is not of and from Sovereign God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Isaiah 45:7​

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Read full chapter

There is no thing that exists that is not of and from Sovereign God.

I agree, but it’s not that God created evil for the sake of it……he created balance in all of his creation…equal opposites exist in all areas of our life, many of which we just take for granted….the only equal opposites he wanted to keep in his own jurisdiction were “the knowledge of good and evil”……and for a very good reason.

Should the opposite of God’s goodness ever be unleashed on humanity…..it would be a disaster! And that is exactly what happened…..this knowledge was chosen by our first parents, not forced on them...it is forced on us though as we navigate our way in a world that was handed over to God’s enemy. (Luke 4:5-7)
Amid all the chaos, God would shine a light to show us the way out.….

We are the innocent victims here, and a rescue mission is already under way, but in God’s time, not ours.

 

[Jack]

If you just read the story, the Bible reveals it’s own truth. It doesn’t need window dressing.

When did the GB start allowing JW's to read the Bible? Must be something brand new.

 

[Jack]

Why do you want to know that Jack? You wouldn't believe me if I told you anyway!

Probably not, because your opinions do not overrule Jesus, God of the Bible.

 

[quietthinker]

Probably not, because your opinions do not overrule Jesus, God of the Bible.

hmmm, as I thought. You ask things you don't want to know and don't ask about that which you aught to know.

 

[quietthinker]

If you just read the story, the Bible reveals it’s own truth. It doesn’t need window dressing.

In that case I wonder why you make so many words?

 

[Aunty Jane]

In that case I wonder why you make so many words?

Have you noticed how many words the Bible contains….not for people who have the concentration span of a goldfish. There is much to be said….if you have a problem with the length of my responses….the solution is really simple….no one is standing over you with a big stick….