Daniel 11 What verse does the end time kick in?

[Douggg]

My view is this. Daniel 9:27 has already been fullfilled 2000 ago up unto this point--and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. The remainder of that verse is reserved for the time of the end during the final days of this age involving the 42 month reign of the beast, for one. The entire verse is pertaining to the 70th week the same way verse 25 is pertaining to only the first 69 weeks.

Davidpt, the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 are the same 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 that will follow the Gog/Magog event.

In the bible, there are fifteen time of the end time-frames of events. Those all fit within the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 and Ezekiel 39:9.

 

[Zao is life]

I haven't watched that video, so I have no clue what is said in that video. But I do have an opinion on this 70x7 in question.

Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


IOW, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. But not 490 times, but until I return at the end of the remaining final half of the 70th week at the end of this age.

This way the 70 weeks involve both the first and 2nd coming. After all, for one, it doesn't make sense that the transgression upon the holy city was finished 2000 years ago. Then some 40 years later this same holy city is attacked and destroyed. Not to mention, this same holy city is on the map again and mainly occupied by unbelieving Jews. Plus, until Zechariah 14:11 is fulfilled first, it is ludricrous in the meantime that the trangression upon the holy city is already finished, IMO.

My view is this. Daniel 9:27 has already been fullfilled 2000 ago up unto this point--and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. The remainder of that verse is reserved for the time of the end during the final days of this age involving the 42 month reign of the beast, for one. The entire verse is pertaining to the 70th week the same way verse 25 is pertaining to only the first 69 weeks.

I tend to agree in principle with what you say. The fact that the Messiah was cut off in the midst of the 70th week meant that Zechariah 14:3-4 and Revelation 11:15 could not be fulfilled at that time.

Even today the Rabbis have an understanding of the Messiah that he will be both a suffering servant who will die for the people whom they refer to as "Messiah son of Joseph" (as in a role that is the same sort of role that Joseph had), and "Messiah, son of David" (as in the role of a king who conquered the giant).

The Rabbis - and Orthodox religious Jews - argue among themselves whether the Messiah is two men or one man, and some argue that the Messiah is an age, and blah blah blah.

It's the people themselves for whom the Messiah came that caused Him to be cut off and ironically they caused Him to die for their sins, fulfilling the first role - as well as the prophecy regarding Him being cut off, which meant that He could not fulfil the other role at that time.

But I also believe that is the way God planned it because He knew their hearts and the hearts of all humanity, and wanted all to be saved, but knew that only a remnant of Jews and a remnant of Gentiles would believe, and be saved.

I believe you may be correct about the final half of the 70 weeks corresponding prophetically to the final 42 months which we read about in the Revelation (but not literally in time, because time did not stand still but continued to march on after Jesus's crucifixion).

- only in my case Zechariah 14 and whether or not it corresponds to the time of Revelation 11:15 onward is still sort of a mystery to me, so that interpretation is filed in my own mind's "Speculatively Speaking" cabinet.

- though I also agree with what you said about Zechariah 14's "new order" following the attack on Jerusalem corresponding with the New Heavens and New Earth; and I also agree with your placing both the commencement of the millennium and of the New Heavens and New Earth to immediately following the return of Christ and the fulfilment of these prophecies.

 

[Davidpt]

- only in my case Zechariah 14 and whether or not it corresponds to the time of Revelation 11:15 onward is still sort of a mystery to me, so that interpretation is filed in my own mind's "Speculatively Speaking" cabinet.

A) Zechariah 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

B) 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

C) Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Let's start with C). Can C) already be true while B) is still true?

Can A) already be true while B) is still true?

Can A) already be true before C) is true first? By 'true' I'm basically meaning when these things are fulfilled. A), B), and C) are all true, obviously. That is not in question.

For example--Zechariah 14:9---in that day shall there be one LORD--compared with---Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Combined does that still equal only one lord?

 

[Zao is life]

A) Zechariah 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

B) 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

C) Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Let's start with C). Can C) already be true while B) is still true?

Can A) already be true while B) is still true?

Can A) already be true before C) is true first? By 'true' I'm basically meaning when these things are fulfilled. A), B), and C) are all true, obviously. That is not in question.

For example--Zechariah 14:9---in that day shall there be one LORD--compared with---Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Combined does that still equal only one lord?

I never thought of them as combined. I'm not sure what I said that gave you that impression. I agree with your comparison of Zechariah, and also I agree that Zechariah 14:9-11 and 16- 21 cannot be fulfilled before Zechariah 14:1-5 and 12-15

- and Zechariah 14:1-5 and 12-15 also obviously cannot correspond with anything that came before, or will come after Revelation 11:15-19; Revelation 19:11-21 and any other part of Revelation (6th bowl of wrath etc) associated with it.

It's just that it's not 100% clear for me. Maybe - probably - because I battle to square up Revelation 11:1-2 with Zechariah 14:1-5 because I do not believe Revelation 11:1-2 is talking about a literal city (or a literal temple). Which means that Zechariah 14's Jerusalem may not be that literal Jerusalem on earth in the Middle East, either.

Like I said, some things remain a mystery to me.​

 

[ScottA]

@Spiritual Israelite is correct in what he says about this.

The only thing that comes to my mind when you make the assertions that you do is a mystery cult, of which you are the self-appointed leader. No doubt you will have gained followers, and will gain even more from among the gullible.

The only "mystery" that needs to be spiritually discerned regarding Daniel 9:26-27 lies in why Jesus made an obvious allusion to Daniel 9:24-27 when He said this:

Matthew 18
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

The seventieth week is the completion of the prophecy because it was during the seventieth week that the Messiah brought in the New Covenant in His blood, which He gave for the forgiveness of sins.

Isaiah 53:8 tells us that He was cut off out of the land of the living, and that He was stricken for the transgression of God's people - again alluding to sin, which is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4);

and Daniel 9:26 tells us too that the Messiah would be cut off during the 70th week, adding that He was not cut off for Himself (i.o.w, not for His own sins).

It represents the completion of the promise God made to Abraham regarding the fact that in his seed all the families of the earth would be blessed, and via the prophet Jeremiah regarding the New Covenant and the forgiveness of sins in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It's very clear (for those who indeed do have the help of the Holy Spirit to understand) that this is why Jesus alluded to Daniel 9:24-27 in Matthew 18:22 (or at least part of the reason why).

But IMO you intend to lock people into your "mysteries" in your self-created mystery cult, of which you are the self-appointed leader - so that you can control them - - which is why people must first buy your book in order to become more "deeply informed" regarding your "mysteries".

LOL. Do you have an initiation rite yet?

Whether this person with this YouTube channel is correct in what he finds or not, it's clear to me he is not trying to deceive, nor become the leader of a mystery cult, and what he says about 70X7 is way more fascinating than the 'mysteries' you come up with.

​

You hypocrites, you accuse and call names showing your true colors--your real fruit. Then you quote that Christ was cut off in the middle of seven--as I said. Then you say it isn't so and look for another seven to come--as if Christ is still to come and to be cut off again!

 

[indentured servant]

Daniel 11 can be paralleled with the reign and fall of Alexander the Great, whose kingdom was divided amongst his 4 generals.

It also fulfills the progression of kingdoms, starting with Nebuchadnezzar.

It has been said, that this passage of Scripture was presented to Alexander the Great, letting him know he had a part in God's plan.

Whether accurate, or not, it was noted that he very accepting of this prophecy.

Regardless of whether he personally knew of this prophecy, it certainly appears to be that he was indeed a part of prophecy.

 

[Timtofly]

One characteristic of the AC is that he kills a lot of Jews. If you want to claim the bible says the AC must be 'proclaimed' the 'king' of the Jews, you better give us Scripture. You haven't so far. Maybe it's time to be honest.

So did King Herod in the first century, kill a lot of Jews. What is your exact counterpoint?

For one thing, you both are wrong, that there is a human AC. Satan is the king of Israel, and the entire world, not some human. It will be Satan out front and visible, controlling the entire world, while sitting as ruler of Israel. Why do you deny that Israel will reign over the other nations, at this point in time?

Satan is one of the heads of the beast, as his kingdom is the 8th kingdom to rule the world starting with Nebuchadnezzar in Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar was a single individual. Satan is a single individual ruling the world as the AC. Why would Satan let one human take all the credit, at the very end. Satan has done that for 6,000 years. If Satan gets to reign, he will be the only one reigning, and not the False Prophet nor the beast, which is the image brought to life.

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Revelation 17:10

In Revelation 12, the dragon is Satan with 6 other future heads. In Revelation 13, the sea beast is still Satan, with 6 historical heads. In Revelation 17, the 7 headed beast is still Satan, now ruling in Jerusalem which is the whore sitting on that authority. Only one time in history will Israel be considered part of the beast system, and that is when Satan, one of the heads is the only ruler left.

The 3 times this Seven headed beast is mentioned in Revelation, is still the same beast, and Satan is always one of the heads.

 

[dad]

So did King Herod in the first century, kill a lot of Jews. What is your exact counterpoint?

The point is that one needs more than 'killing a lot of Jews' to be considered king of Israel. It was not me that called the AC king of Israel. I understand prophesy to say that he will be a worldwide king of this world that, for the most part is not really all that pro Israel.

For one thing, you both are wrong, that there is a human AC.

False. The man is clearly human. Show us verses that say he is not?

Satan is the king of Israel, and the entire world, not some human.

Nor is he personally ruling anything and never will. He works by proxy. The last king is a man that is empowered by Satan.

Rev 13:2 .... The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

It will be Satan out front and visible,

You made that up

controlling the entire world, while sitting as ruler of Israel.

Again you made that up. Verse?

In fact Paul implicitly states he will be a man


2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Why do you deny that Israel will reign over the other nations, at this point in time?

Say what? The 'Israel' there today will be mostly killed the bible says, 2/3 of them. The only Israel that will ever rule some of the world over there will be the saved (Jewish) believers in the end. The current unbelieving nation is directly slated for judgment from God.

Satan is one of the heads of the beast,

Says you. Prove it? The seven heads represent kingdoms as it says.

as his kingdom is the 8th kingdom to rule the world starting with Nebuchadnezzar in Babylon.

Yes, and is of the seven yet distinct so is also the eighth.

Nebuchadnezzar was a single individual. Satan is a single individual ruling the world as the AC.

No, all kingdoms were indirectly ruled by Satan. The final one will be more directly infused as the man he possesses will be more totally possessed by him I would think. The man gets his power from Satan. That does not mean the man is not a man.

Why would Satan let one human take all the credit, at the very end.

It doesn't matter what credit he may like or not. What matters is what power he is given and what he can or cannot do.

Satan has done that for 6,000 years. If Satan gets to reign, he will be the only one reigning, and not the False Prophet nor the beast, which is the image brought to life.

Only by being in the man who rules. Not in person in some flesh or whatever.

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Revelation 17:10

Yes he certainly will go into perdition. So will the false prophet! That does not mean they are not men and 'Satan' in flesh!

In Revelation 12, the dragon is Satan with 6 other future heads.

No. The beast represents kingdoms. Not some 'mutant in the flesh satan' with several mutated heads.
Of course the dragon is Satan. That does not mean the man who is king in the end is a dragon or Satan.

In Revelation 13, the sea beast is still Satan, with 6 historical heads.

No.


Revelation 17:10

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 17:11
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Revelation 17:12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

So when it talks of a beast with seven 'heads' in Rev 13, that has ten horns and crowns it seems clear that this is talking about the same kingdoms Rev 17 is talking about. The final kingdom has ten parts or horns. Each of these kingdoms has rule under the kingdom. Calling the seven kingdoms 'Satan' is not correct. You might say that all these kingdoms were inspired or indirectly ruled by Satan. However, claiming that the entire seven kingdoms of history 'are' Satan' is confused.

In Revelation 17, the 7 headed beast is still Satan, now ruling in Jerusalem which is the whore sitting on that authority.

As explained above the beast pictured there was actually kingdoms.

Only one time in history will Israel be considered part of the beast system, and that is when Satan, one of the heads is the only ruler left.

You made that up unless you show verses that prove otherwise.

The 3 times this Seven headed beast is mentioned in Revelation, is still the same beast, and Satan is always one of the heads.

The heads are kingdoms (kings) actually. That is what the bible says. I also do not recall anywhere in the bible that a spirit can be 'wounded unto death'? Ha

"there are seven kings.."

The horns are kings too of course.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no 70th week. It's not biblical, it's pure speculation, a mere theory--teachings of men.

I assume you also disregard the Scripture that says 69 weeks, as well?

 

[ScottA]

I assume you also disregard the Scripture that says 69 weeks, as well?

No need to assume, I explained in posts #195 and #227.

 

[Timtofly]

But Johns description of the antichrist isn’t the same description he gave of the sea beast and he even named them different.

So who is the eighth king then?

There is no 8 when it comes to 7. The 7th world wide kingdom is that of Jesus Christ per Revelation 11:15.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

The 7th head is Satan, and Satan's kingdom is after the 7th Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

The verse states that Satan is the 8th kingdom, not the 8th King.

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

Jerusalem sits on the back of 7 historical kingdoms. Satan's kingdom has not happened yet. When Jerusalem is burned (the context of Revelation 17), it is after 5 have fallen. Even after the 6th head is finished. The 7th head is the 8th king. This last kingdom may or may not happen.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

When Satan finally comes, it is only for a very short period, 42 months, compared to the 2500+ years of the first 6 kingdoms. There are only 7 heads, not 8. Jesus is not part of the beast system. Jesus is not the 8th head, nor the 8th kingdom.

Your question should be who is the 7th King and 7th Kingdom, because nobody can get the numbers correct, even though Revelation 11:15 is often quoted. Besides, the verse does not say Jesus just became King. Jesus has been King since before creation. The verse says the nations now recognize and fall under that Kingship. Jesus will not be the 7th and 9th kingdom, but will always be the 7th Kingdom, for ever and ever, even since the foundation of the world.

Not until that happens (the 7th Trumpet sounding) will we even know that Satan is going to be the 8th kingdom. Just because John saw it happen, does not guarantee it will happen.

My point is that Satan is the only Antichrist figure found in Revelation. Who do you think is the father of this spirit of antichrist?

 

[Truth7t7]

Davidpt, the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 are the same 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 that will follow the Gog/Magog event.

In the bible, there are fifteen time of the end time-frames of events. Those all fit within the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 and Ezekiel 39:9.

View attachment 69152

Malarkey!

Ezekiel 39:9 below was a historical war fought long ago with "Wooden" weapons of warfare, shields, bows, arrows, spears, your claim its a future war is "Laughable"!

Ezekiel 39:9KJV
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

 

[Douggg]

Malarkey!

Ezekiel 39:9 below was a historical war fought long ago with "Wooden" weapons of warfare, shields, bows, arrows, spears, your claim its a future war is "Laughable"!

Ezekiel 39:9KJV
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

I think you should look at Ezekiel 39:17-20 the feast on the dead bodies, after the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9.

That feast corresponds to the feast described in Revelation 19:17-18 when Jesus returns.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having just judged the heathen (Ezekiel 39:17-20) and having returned to this earth.

 

[Timtofly]

False. The man is clearly human. Show us verses that say he is not?

What man? There are no verses that declare he is a human. You have to prove that Scripture makes that claim. No verse declares a negative. You are arguing from a human theory, not Scripture. Is the dragon a human, and if not who are the 7 heads? Satan is one of the heads, because Satan is the dragon. The sea beast and scarlet colored beast is the same 7 head conglomerate shown differently, to represent different aspects of history.

 

[Timtofly]

In fact Paul implicitly states he will be a man


2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Referring to Satan.

 

[Timtofly]

No need to assume, I explained in posts #195 and #227.

So there is a 70th week to go with those 69 weeks. Why deny there is a 70th week? There are 70 weeks total. If Daniel only addresses 69 of them that leaves that last week, to be addressed.

The 70th week is Jesus, Himself.

 

[Douggg]

Referring to Satan.

No, 2Thessalonians2:3-4 the revealed man of sin is referring to the little horn, who had become the Antichrist - the King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah - revealing that he is not the Jewish messiah but is the man of sin instead.

He later will become the beast-king, stage 5 on the chart below.

 

[ScottA]

So there is a 70th week to go with those 69 weeks. Why deny there is a 70th week? There are 70 weeks total. If Daniel only addresses 69 of them that leaves that last week, to be addressed.

The 70th week is Jesus, Himself.

What is missed in Daniel's account, is that the seventy weeks, and the sixty-nine weeks, and the one week--are not speaking of the same thing.

The seventy weeks was given to Daniel by Gabriel (from God) regarding all that was determined regarding his people--from beginning to end. Meaning, as a son of Adam by biblical lineage--from Adam, to the last of those included in the promises given to Abraham, David, and Christ--everyone. Which after Daniel's sixty-nine week prophecy, he returns to the seventy in recap fashion to summarize the seventy weeks, as one week--which connects the creation week with the coming of Christ in the middle of the seven days, a day as a thousand years.

All of which comes in riddle form under the confusion by God upon all language a Babel--which was not yet in effect during the creation week prophecy--yet many never considered it as such.

But the real riddle is the sixty-nine weeks--which first of all should not be considered the same...as it is not seventy. But continuing with reverting back to the original creation week and seventy weeks, only added more confusion--because more was revealed--the more of including every nation and people under the greater promise of God beyond the house of Israel.

But I warn you--the sixty-nine week prophecy--is a real doozy. Which Daniel (or rather God) again summarizes with the saying, "a time, times, and half a time"--which again confirms the matter to be all inclusive of every age from start to finish. He ties them together with his prophecy of Messiah being cut off in the middle of the week. But again, the sixty-nine weeks is the greater riddle, as it addresses the "times" and "half a time" specifically as the times before and after Christ, under the dividing of the light from the darkness, again referring to the creation week. But why sixty-nine and not seventy in that particular riddle of prophecy? Because, the times are shortened to "the going forth of the command to restore", and because the seventh day is not included--for it refers to the rest of God--after the days determined.

 

[dad]

What man? There are no verses that declare he is a human. You have to prove that Scripture makes that claim. No verse declares a negative. You are arguing from a human theory, not Scripture. Is the dragon a human, and if not who are the 7 heads? Satan is one of the heads, because Satan is the dragon. The sea beast and scarlet colored beast is the same 7 head conglomerate shown differently, to represent different aspects of history.

2 Thes 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,3 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

For the win/

 

[dad]

Referring to Satan.

Absurd