Which one are you in the story of the Prodigal?
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Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
@quietthinker did you notice what the father did when the son confessed his sin?
Luke 15:21–22 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.’
The confession is cut short; the father is not interested in extracting the last ounce of true repentance...he is overwhelmed by joy!
We have a lot to learn about Him.
Luke 15:21–22 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.’
The confession is cut short; the father is not interested in extracting the last ounce of true repentance...he is overwhelmed by joy!
We have a lot to learn about Him.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
For reasons I won’t go into now, I resonate with this parable perhaps more than any other the Lord gave. It carries a powerful lesson for the self-centered world we live in today.
The eldest son says to his father, “You never gave me a kid.” Here his pride is clearly revealed. He is thinking in terms of merit and entitlement, seeking his own enjoyment apart from his father.
When he adds, “with my friends,” it’s clear these are not his father’s friends (cf. Luke 14:12). Notice the repeated use of the personal pronoun. Though physically at home, he is inwardly a stranger.
I understand what it would take to transform the older son into the younger son, and it’s not a pleasant thought at all. But a necessary one!
The eldest son says to his father, “You never gave me a kid.” Here his pride is clearly revealed. He is thinking in terms of merit and entitlement, seeking his own enjoyment apart from his father.
When he adds, “with my friends,” it’s clear these are not his father’s friends (cf. Luke 14:12). Notice the repeated use of the personal pronoun. Though physically at home, he is inwardly a stranger.
I understand what it would take to transform the older son into the younger son, and it’s not a pleasant thought at all. But a necessary one!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
God’s word outlines a set formula (for want of a better word) for seeking and receiving his forgiveness. A person had to first acknowledge their sin, recognize it as an offense against God, confess it openly, have a deep heartfelt regret over the wrong done, and have a determination not to repeat the practice. (Psalm 51:4; 1 John 1:9; 2 Cor 7:9-10)
You can’t fix what you don’t acknowledge.
Also required under God’s law was restitution.....doing all they can to right the wrong or to mend the damage done. Asking the person who was wronged for their forgiveness and expressing our sincere apologies for what ever harm was done needs to be given.
Christ’s sacrifice lays the basis for our forgiveness, but it has requirements...it’s not automatic.
Prayer to God, acknowledging the sin and asking for his forgiveness on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice is also necessary. (Eph 1:7)
And as Jesus said in the Lord’s Prayer, we forgive others if we want God to forgive us.
This covers all bases.
Our views on this differ considerably.
Does God withhold forgiveness to the unrepentant?
If so, why would He operate at a lower standard than He holds us to?
We are required to love our enemies.
I also see forgiveness as an unemotional transaction.
A "deep heartfelt regret over the wrong done" is not necessary.
I can accept forgiveness with little emotion about it.
For example, if someone was offended by something I did or said,
I could apologize for the hurt, even though I felt that they over-reacted.
I would do this to maintain the relationship. But no sorrow is needed.
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Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
2 Corinthians 7:10 "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death."
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes. Because forgiveness can only be offered to one who is repentant. Without repentance, there is nothing to stop that person repeating the same behaviour over and over. Again what would be the point?....and it would depend entirely on the gravity of the offence. God’s laws have degrees because offences also have degrees. The difference between premeditated murder and manslaughter for example, had two different penalties in Israel.
There is only one reason why God tells us through Jesus to “love our enemies” and that is so that we will not seek revenge on the offender, and thus put ourselves on the same level as those who do the wrong. Two wrongs never make a right as the old saying goes.
I think we have discussed the difference between “vengeance” and “revenge” before. The line of demarcation is clear.
What we would seek is “revenge”...to “get even”....but this is not what God does .....his vengeance is sought on the perpetrators of evil as a whole. To protect the good, he must eliminate the bad. Isn’t this why humans have prisons to separate the bad from the good people?
God will separate them permanently because his will cannot be “done on earth as it is in heaven” if he allows them to remain, unwilling to change their ways. He gives all opportunity to change their attitudes and actions, but his patience has limits as he demonstrated when dealing with his wayward nation.
God tells us that vengeance belongs to him, so that we have no need or authority to “get even”....we can leave the administration of his justice to him.
Our obligation is outlined in Rom 12:17-21...
“Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”
You see, it’s not a matter of God operating on a lower standard, but him alone having full authority over the exercise of his justice. He has not given that authority to us as Christ’s disciples.
He gave authority to his nation in order to defend the land that he had gifted to them, but that was then...this is now, under a whole new arrangement.
It doesn’t have to be emotional, but feelings of regret have to accompany the repentance otherwise there is just the cold exercise of something that requires feelings....like it or not.
This would depend entirely on the wrong committed. Our humanity is often in the way when it comes to justice. Feelings stir people to violence and they commit acts of revenge only to find themselves in trouble.
What is the point of that? Leaving the vengeance to God is a place where violence becomes unnecessary....knowing that God has got your back. Justice will be served.....so you can leave it all in his capable hands.
St. SteVen said:
I also see forgiveness as an unemotional transaction.
A "deep heartfelt regret over the wrong done" is not necessary.
I can accept forgiveness with little emotion about it.
If "deep heartfelt regret" is required, how is that measured?
- Was your regret heartfelt enough?
- Was your heartfelt regret deep enough?
- Could you have had DEEPER heartfelt regret?
- Was it enough to be forgiven?
A person could be tormented by these questions forever.
Why add the emotional burden to what only needs to be a straight-forward confession?
In my view, only transparency is needed.
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I also see forgiveness as an unemotional transaction.
A "deep heartfelt regret over the wrong done" is not necessary.
I can accept forgiveness with little emotion about it.
That appears to be a contradictory reply.
If "deep heartfelt regret" is required, how is that measured?
- Was your regret heartfelt enough?
- Was your heartfelt regret deep enough?
- Could you have had DEEPER heartfelt regret?
- Was it enough to be forgiven?
A person could be tormented by these questions forever.
Why add the emotional burden to what only needs to be a straight-forward confession?
In my view, only transparency is needed.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Only if you want it to be......it’s about degrees, some of which elicit deep emotion, and others that require very little, as in the example you gave. You can be sorry about things according to your own view of them....”sorry” is a word that covers a wrong, but is only meaningful if it is sincere....
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Since guilt is a powerful emotion, does it have a place in Christianity?
The answer is...yes. But guilt in and of itself is not enough. There is a purpose to feeling “guilty” about something you said or did......it should move you to address the problem and put it to bed.
The Catholic Church made guilt into a form of manipulation that never allowed a person to really feel forgiven. Fear replaced regret and a recompense in the form of repetitive words, kept one from the fires of hell. Love of God is not about fear.....love of God elicits a healthy respect and a fear of displeasing someone we love.
Some people carry a burden of guilt throughout their whole lives over something they did, and couldn’t fix with an apology.
Guilt is not something that is meant to stand in front of us, slapping us for the rest of our lives...it is an emotion designed to prompt us to fix something that we broke....but what if we can’t fix it...but wish we could?
That regret can be covered by Christ’s sacrifice....it is called “propitiatory” because it “covers” what cannot be fixed...meaning that the sacrifice offered by Jesus can give a forgiveness that we cannot give ourselves.
The very fact that we feel this deep regret is proof that we are sorry for what happened, and if we could have our time over, we would not have said or done what we did.
Guilt has a place but it was never designed to be a weapon.
I feel prodigal.
At 14, when I first converted, I only wanted to serve Christ in a humble setting---likely missionary work.
But my parents scoffed at this. They said I ought to focus on myself. So I tried to get a bachelor's. That didnt work out.
I so wish I had kept the fire I had at first, skipped college, and just focused on serving Christ. My parents philosophy of "focus on you first" was one that made me lukewarm.
I still seek to love Christ with the love I had at first. But I was prodigal in the intermittent years.
At 14, when I first converted, I only wanted to serve Christ in a humble setting---likely missionary work.
But my parents scoffed at this. They said I ought to focus on myself. So I tried to get a bachelor's. That didnt work out.
I so wish I had kept the fire I had at first, skipped college, and just focused on serving Christ. My parents philosophy of "focus on you first" was one that made me lukewarm.
I still seek to love Christ with the love I had at first. But I was prodigal in the intermittent years.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm not much of a law-keeper, so that probably rules me out as the elder brother. I'm not God, so I don't think I fill the role of Father. I don't really see myself as a prodigal either.
Where does that leave me?
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
if you're a sinner - oldest son. Right off the bat, too self important to care for his younger brother....I wont mention the rest of the list.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
Going to college is a far cry from squandering your inheritance.
Grow where you're planted.
Joseph ended up in a prison in Egypt.
He probably thought his life was over.
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Based on the little I know about you, I'd venture that you're the prodigal.
You probably took the long route to get where you are now.
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