The Law 430 years later did not...

[Hiddenthings]

@dak

Romans 2:24 “For ‘God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,’ as it is written.”

Paul quotes Isaiah 52:5, showing that Israel’s repeated sins against Yahweh’s Law led the nations to blaspheme God. Similarly, David’s sin with Uriah provoked the same response: “By doing this, you have caused the enemies of the Lord to show utter contempt” (2 Sam. 12:14).

Nullify was the right word wasn't it dak? The Abrahamic Covenant is now in force.

The Unjust Steward (Luke 16:1-18)

The Master teaches you this many times, but we have explored it in the parable of the unjust steward.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@dak Let use an example.

A child, though born of Israelites, was considered unclean (Job 14:4; 25:4) that is, unholy until circumcision and presentation to the Lord, in accordance with the law: “Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord.” Yet Israel’s history shows that many so-called holy individuals were wicked.

Some, however, sincerely desired to keep the law. They grew up “blameless” (Phil 3:6), carefully observing all the precepts of the Decalogue, following the temple worship, and avoiding all legally unclean and interdicted things. This was a form of righteousness achieved by human effort, through strict adherence to the law (Phil. 3:9).

This was the path of righteousness that Israel often pursued, a righteousness sought through works, in contrast to the righteousness Paul preached (Rom 9:31; 10:3) which the prophets described as “filthy rags.” Many of these men acted in ignorance, sincerely striving yet missing the true fulfillment of God’s law.

They bore the token of the covenant in their flesh, yet they were “children in whom was no faith,” and as Scripture declares, “without faith it is impossible to please God.” Thus, an Israelite might be legally blameless, but without faith, his adherence to the law could at most entitle him to the temporal blessings of the land that the Lord had given His people.

The twelve tribes inherited the land under the Mosaic law, which could grant only a temporal, earthly possession to their descendants. It could not have conferred an everlasting inheritance; even if the nation had kept the law perfectly, its citizens would not have automatically attained eternal life.

The transgressions of Israel, culminating in their rejection of the gospel of the kingdom, brought down God’s judgments upon them, which ultimately served the triumph of truth. Yet they would not have been expelled from the land as they were if the covenant given through Moses and the angels had the power to confer an eternal title to it.

Covenants have no effect until they are purged. As Scripture says, “Almost all things are by the law purged with blood.” To purge something in the biblical sense is to cleanse it from legal or moral defilement and to impart to it a virtue corresponding to the cleansing principle. While this is a general definition that may not apply in every instance, it is precise enough for our purposes.

The covenant made with Abraham was confirmed by Jehovah’s oath, “Know of a surety,” and by the consumption of sacrifices by fire from heaven (Gen. 15). This act confirmed the covenant, but it was not yet purged. It would not be truly purged until 2,089 years later, when it received a virtue corresponding to the blood of sprinkling, the blood of Jesus, which speaks of better things than the blood of Abel, and is called “the blood of the New Testament, shed for many for the remission of sins.”

The history of Jesus’ death and resurrection narrates the story of this purging, the act that renders the covenant effective. Through it, the forgiveness of sins, eternal life, and an everlasting inheritance of the land, with all its inseparable blessings are made available to everyone who believes in the promises contained therein.

 

[dak]

Once that covenant guided its people toward the New Covenant in Christ, the Torah had fulfilled its purpose. This does not mean the Law could no longer instruct us; rather, now that all things are revealed in Christ, we can look back at the Law and recognize him as its central
focus.

His people are added to His olive tree one at a time: therefore Paul says:

Galatians 3:24 ASV
24 So that the law is become [has become] our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

We've been over this too, extensively, and this among the many other things you now wish to rehash, after you've already been proven to be wrong according to the scripture, is the main reason I did not respond here right away, and perhaps at this point do not intend to go into all that has already been said because you do reject Paul's words on most of these things.

Romans 2:25–29 “For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. … But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Can you obey the Law dak? Rom 3:23!!!

Your question to me shows your own buffoonery in your disbelief.

Romans 2:28-29 ASV
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Stop reading the Torah like a Pharisee, (carnal mindset), and believe and understand it according to the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts, and the testimony of Paul his servant who himself teaches the commandments of the Master. How many times have I referenced or quoted Romans 7:14a to you? The Torah is spiritual, not carnal.

Philippians 3:2-3 ASV
2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh:

You have the Torah backwards because you still refuse to hear the Master and his Apostles in order to maintain your carnal, natural, physical minded view of all things, and that is why you cannot understand the Spirit of the Torah, and therefore cannot be subject to the Torah of Elohim, and therefore cannot please Elohim, (Rom 8:5-8).

Romans 8:5-8 ASV
5 For they that are after [according to] the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after [according to] the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Understand? It is not in you to do so: you have been deceived.

“Circumcision and uncircumcision are of no consequence; what truly matters is keeping God’s commands” (1 Cor 7:19).
“In Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts, what matters is faith working through love” (Gal 5:6).
“Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision carries any weight; what counts is becoming a new creation” (Gal 6:15).
“Therefore, if anyone belongs to Christ, they are a new creation: the old has passed away, and the new has come” (2 Cor 5:17).

Herein above you have stripped four statements from their contexts, and have pasted them together into a mini-scripture wall so as to insert your own faulty logos into the statements which are now devoid of the original Logos, all while not realizing that circumcision is of the heart, and is therefore still required, and yet you do not have it because you have deceived yourself.

The Master has become "Minister of the circumcision" for the truth of Elohim, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers, (Rom 15:8).

You must feel the weight dak?

I cannot feel for you regarding weight.
As for me: my yoke is Chrestos.

It's not I who you disagree with but the Apostle Paul.

Empty claim: perhaps the weight upon you may be greater than I might think, but what is that to me when you openly reject scripture passages and likewise strip them of their contexts in order to make your own dogmas?

 

[Hiddenthings]

His people are added to His olive tree one at a time: therefore Paul says:

Galatians 3:24 ASV
24 So that the law is become [has become] our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

We've been over this too, extensively, and this among the many other things you now wish to rehash, after you've already been proven to be wrong according to the scripture, is the main reason I did not respond here right away, and perhaps at this point do not intend to go into all that has already been said because you do reject Paul's words on most of these things.

We have been over this dak!

Put in Charge - “Paidagogos” refers to the tutor-slave employed in wealthy Greek or Roman households to oversee and guide young boys (CGal 90). Over time, however, the pedagogue’s service inevitably comes to an end.

A pedagogue—literally a child-custodian or child-attendant—was responsible for supervising a child from around age six to sixteen, ensuring proper behavior and escorting him to and from school. Importantly, the pedagogue did not teach, so translating paidagogos as “schoolmaster” (KJV) is incorrect; if Paul had meant “teacher,” he would have used didaskalos.

Paul’s point is that this custodial role ended when the child reached full sonship, formally acknowledged through adoption by his father (Gal. 4:1–7). The phrase “to Christ” is temporal, not geographic; it signifies that the law’s guiding role lasts only until we come of age, at the revelation of our full sonship through Christ.

Are you still under a tutor dak?

Philippians 3:2-3 ASV
2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh:

You are thinking with a carnal mind, still focused on cutting the flesh with your hands!

It’s insulting that you first implied I don’t understand, only to then reveal your confidence in the flesh, truly remarkable.

I didn’t bother addressing the rest, as the above was more than enough to show where your confidence lies.

Still under Law (tutor) and cutting the flesh with hands.

Wow!

 

[dak]

We have been over this dak!

Put in Charge - “Paidagogos” refers to the tutor-slave employed in wealthy Greek or Roman households to oversee and guide young boys (CGal 90). Over time, however, the pedagogue’s service inevitably comes to an end.

A pedagogue—literally a child-custodian or child-attendant—was responsible for supervising a child from around age six to sixteen, ensuring proper behavior and escorting him to and from school. Importantly, the pedagogue did not teach, so translating paidagogos as “schoolmaster” (KJV) is incorrect; if Paul had meant “teacher,” he would have used didaskalos.

Paul’s point is that this custodial role ended when the child reached full sonship, formally acknowledged through adoption by his father (Gal. 4:1–7). The phrase “to Christ” is temporal, not geographic; it signifies that the law’s guiding role lasts only until we come of age, at the revelation of our full sonship through Christ.

Are you still under a tutor dak?


You are thinking with a carnal mind, still focused on cutting the flesh with your hands!

It’s insulting that you first implied I don’t understand, only to then reveal your confidence in the flesh, truly remarkable.

I didn’t bother addressing the rest, as the above was more than enough to show where your confidence lies.

Still under Law (tutor) and cutting the flesh with hands.

Wow!

That's another reason I see that this will not likely be fruitful: all of your wildly false accusations which you never have any evidence for. Moreover, as for the rest of your posts, a do not plan to answer three or four in a row from you: it's ridiculous and you surely know that it takes much more work to correct false statements than it did for you to make them. I see it as just another of your worn out familiar debate tactics. Rapid fire away, have fun, enjoy your thread.

Nice chatting.......

 

[Hiddenthings]

I cannot feel for you regarding weight.
As for me: my yoke is Chrestos.

You claim a physical circumcision with hands, yet claim to be in Christ? how so?

Paul has shown you how to attain the true circumcision and its by faith through promises (not by Law!).

Romans 2:25–29 – True circumcision is not outward in the flesh, but inward, of the heart, by the Spirit.

Romans 4:9–12 – Abraham was counted righteous by faith before he was circumcised, making him the father of both the circumcised and uncircumcised who believe.

1 Corinthians 7:18–19 – Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping God’s commandments is what matters.

Galatians 5:2–6 – If you accept circumcision as necessary for justification, Christ is of no benefit; what counts is faith working through love.

Galatians 6:12–15 – Some pushed circumcision to avoid persecution; Paul insists that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision matters, but being a new creation in Christ.

Philippians 3:2–3 – Paul warns against those who insist on circumcision, saying believers are the true “circumcision,” worshipping by the Spirit and putting no confidence in the flesh.

Colossians 2:11–12 – Believers have a spiritual circumcision in Christ, put off through baptism, not by hands.

Abraham, Paul and Christ all agree as to the means of becoming New is not with circumcision made with hands but by the Spirit which cuts away the flesh desires to serve the Spirit.

In a very real way, I can say I have Abraham as my father - by faith!

Romans 4:16 "That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

 

[Hiddenthings]

That's another reason I see that this will not likely be fruitful:

You make claims then when corrected you look for the back door. Surely you can see how this looks.

 

[dak]

You claim a physical circumcision with hands, yet claim to be in Christ? how so?

Please stop lying. I said no such thing and actually said the opposite: but you do not believe Paul. Your own mind is deceiving you because you cannot imagine that you yourself might be wrong.

Again, for the umpteenth time:

Romans 7:14
14 For we know that the Torah is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

You are carnal: not the Torah. It is you who must change: not the Torah.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Please stop lying. I said no such thing and actually said the opposite: but you do not believe Paul. Your own mind is deceiving you because you cannot imagine that you yourself might be wrong.

Again, for the umpteenth time:

Romans 7:14
14 For we know that the Torah is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

You are carnal: not the Torah. It is you who must change: not the Torah.

I’m not lying! It is you who is confusing the physical and the spiritual circumcision. Quoting that the Torah is spiritual only confirms its true purpose: to lead people into the New Covenant in Christ, through the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Let Peter’s words guide you: “You have purified your souls by your obedience to the truth.” It is through this obedience that the heart is truly circumcised. But this is not circumcision by the shedding of blood with a knife, it is by the application of the shed blood of the One who was himself circumcised in heart. Scripture calls this “the circumcision made without hands” the putting off of the body of sins, casting it away like the foreskin of the heart!

Paul explains: “You were circumcised with the circumcision of Christ.” Since Christ is in heaven, how can someone on earth be circumcised by his circumcision? Paul’s answer is clear: “In him you were circumcised.” Therefore, the repentant believer must enter into Christ, or “put him on,” so that in him he may be made complete. Just as a man who puts on a garment is no longer seen in his natural state but covered by that garment, so the believer who puts on Christ is clothed in his righteousness. In God’s sight, he no longer appears as a natural man, but as one who is in Christ.

So I ask you, do you believe one must put on Torah? Surely not!

 

[dak]

I’m not lying! It is you who is confusing the physical and the spiritual circumcision. Quoting that the Torah is spiritual only confirms its true purpose: to lead people into the New Covenant in Christ, through the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Let Peter’s words guide you: “You have purified your souls by your obedience to the truth.” It is through this obedience that the heart is truly circumcised. But this is not circumcision by the shedding of blood with a knife, it is by the application of the shed blood of the One who was himself circumcised in heart. Scripture calls this “the circumcision made without hands” the putting off of the body of sins, casting it away like the foreskin of the heart!

Paul explains: “You were circumcised with the circumcision of Christ.” Since Christ is in heaven, how can someone on earth be circumcised by his circumcision? Paul’s answer is clear: “In him you were circumcised.” Therefore, the repentant believer must enter into Christ, or “put him on,” so that in him he may be made complete. Just as a man who puts on a garment is no longer seen in his natural state but covered by that garment, so the believer who puts on Christ is clothed in his righteousness. In God’s sight, he no longer appears as a natural man, but as one who is in Christ.

So I ask you, do you believe one must put on Torah? Surely not!

Your confusion is on you for lack of Torah knowledge and neither believing the Master nor Paul.

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 KJV
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, [LXX: from one end of heaven to the other, (Mat 24:31)] from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

And later in this passage is a portion from which Paul also quotes:

Romans 10:6-8 KJV
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? [Deut 30:12] ( that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? [Deut 30:13] ( that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead. )
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: [Deut 30:14] that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

But look what immediately follows in that context from which Paul quotes:

Deuteronomy 30:11-19 KJV
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Romans 10:6]
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Romans 10:7]
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. [Romans 10:8]
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Mosheh explicitly states to anyone who reads and studies the Torah that he has set before us life and good, and death and evil: life and death, and blessing and cursing: therefore choose life.

Paul has already explained, (as quoted previously from Romans 8 here in this thread), that the natural-carnal mind understanding is death: therefore it is a choice everyone must make, and to choose the flesh, the physical, the natural man understanding of the things in the Torah, is to choose death because the Torah is spiritual, not because I say so but because Mosheh and Paul say so in the holy scripture.

The attacks you have leveled herein show that you choose to believe that circumcision according to the Torah is meant as physical and outward, the circumcision of the male private member, when in fact the Torah also teaches circumcision of the heart, just as Paul also teaches, (also quoted previously herein to you from Rom 2:28-29, and Paul surely received it from the Torah), even while Mosheh says what he does in the passages above about choosing life over death. You therefore remain stiff-necked because of your own natural minded paradigm, and because of it you unwittingly choose death. You are no better off than the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes who believed and understood the Torah in the same manner as you do, and enforced their carnal-minded understanding upon the people well before you ever came along. You are at the end of a double millennia-long line of natural-minded religious people tinkering with the Torah who naturally end up choosing death.

Moreover Paul informs the reader, in the passage quoted above herein, that the Rhema-Word of the faith which he preaches comes straight from Deuteronomy 30, and even expounds the Master from what he quoted, (Rom 10:6-8).

 

[Hiddenthings]

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Circumcision was given as the token of the covenant (Gen 17:11). Because of this, the covenant with Abraham is described as “the covenant of circumcision” (Acts 7:8). From John 7:22 we learn that the law of circumcision took precedence over the Sabbath law: circumcision was “of the fathers,” whereas the Sabbath was “of Moses.”

Circumcision involved the cutting off of flesh, and thus symbolized the repudiation of the flesh, including reliance on mere fleshly descent. Abram himself had once tried to bring about the promised seed through the flesh (Gen. 16:2), but he was taught that the true seed would not come “of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13). Therefore, rather than establishing hereditary privilege, circumcision emphasized the opposite: fleshly descent alone gave no claim to covenant blessings. Instead of pride, it was meant to instill humility.

The mark of circumcision was placed intimately in the flesh, hidden from view, pointing to the deeper reality of the circumcision of the heart, something only Yahweh can truly discern. The physical rite brought pain to the flesh, again foreshadowing the cutting away of sinful desires.

None but circumcised persons can inherit the promises. This may sound startling, but it is strictly true. Yet true circumcision is of the heart. Circumcision of the flesh is only the outward sign of Abraham’s circumcision of heart. Everyone who would inherit with faithful Abraham must likewise be circumcised in heart. When he was circumcised in heart, his faith in God was counted to him for remission of sins. His former idolatry was forgiven, and the body of the sins of his flesh put off. So also, a man who believes as Abraham believed, with the same effect on his life, is circumcised of heart when he puts on Christ ‘circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by the circumcision of Christ.’ His faith is counted for righteousness, the body of sin is cut off, and he becomes the subject of circumcision in the spirit, whose praise is from God (Rom 2:29).”

Thus, circumcision represents much more than baptism. It signifies the rejection of an old way of life and the beginning of a new life in Christ Jesus. It is, in essence, a figurative “crucifixion of the flesh with its affections and lusts” (Gal. 5:24). Baptism may mark the first step of obedience, but true spiritual circumcision demands an ongoing life of faith, humility, and devotion to God.

For this reason, Moses reminded Israel of their solemn responsibility as the covenant people: they were to circumcise the foreskin of their hearts, removing everything that hindered them from fully embracing Yahweh’s love. This meant opening their hearts without reservation, secrecy, or unbelief. It was a command to be obeyed, yet God promised His help to those who sincerely desired to submit (Deut. 30:6). The foundation of true circumcision is humility of spirit (Lev. 26:41).

Since man’s rebellion against God first came through the flesh, and continues to manifest itself through fleshly desires and lusts, it was entirely fitting that the covenant sign be carried in the body, a continual reminder of the need to put off the flesh in order to walk with God.

Yahweh exhorted His people to “circumcise your hearts” (Deut. 10:16; Jer. 4:4, 14), rather than be forced into it through the painful judgments spoken of by the prophets. Spiritual circumcision is essential for salvation (Rom. 2:28–29), and it is accomplished in Christ Jesus (Col. 3:11).

At present, Israel remains uncircumcised in heart, though they still practice the outward rite of circumcision (Jer. 9:26). Yet the circumcision that truly matters, the circumcision of the heart is what will bring them into the blessings of the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31–34). By the Spirit-Word of truth, God will transform their hearts, removing the stony heart of unbelief and giving them a heart of flesh, ready to be circumcised in spirit (Ezek. 36:26–28).

The Torah could not provide this "circumcision in the heart" completely.

Circumcision of the heart is revealed in the doing of God’s will perfectly, this was always a foundational requirement of the Law. Spiritually, Israel will undergo a divine “heart transplant” (Ezek. 11:19–20; 36:26–27; Rom. 11:26). Their entry into the New Covenant will not be through the Law (Torah), but by faith through the promises of God as fulfilled in the Atoning sacrifice of Christ.

 

[Hiddenthings]

"And he counted it to him for righteousness"

This important statement is quoted by both Paul (Rom. 4:3) and James (Jas. 2:23) as the foundation for the doctrine of justification through faith (not by Law). Paul associates faith with belief (Rom. 10:17), noting that God placed Abram’s belief on the credit side of his account. Crucially, Paul shows that this took place before circumcision and before the giving of the Law, proving that justification was NOT dependent on either.

However, it is important to carefully consider what the statement actually means. It does not say that faith is righteousness, nor that “he counted it to him as righteousness,” but rather “for righteousness.” The Septuagint uses the Greek word eis, meaning “unto” or “with a view to,” signifying motion toward an end. Abram’s faith therefore laid the foundation for righteousness, a passive righteousness in that he accepted Yahweh’s word as the basis for a character that would be developed. That same word then worked in him an active righteousness, for it led him to conform to God’s will and thus be “justified by works” (Jas. 2:21–23).

Abram’s faith shows that he relied upon Yahweh to provide righteousness. Righteousness is right standing with God, something no man can achieve by perfect obedience. Instead, man must rely upon God, through faith, for the forgiveness of sins. Abram’s fears and doubts were overcome by believing God’s word, and this faith was “counted to him for righteousness” the basis of “righteousness without works” (Rom. 4:3–6).

In our case, faith becomes the ground of justification when we “obey from the heart that form of doctrine” (Rom. 6:17), expressed in baptism. At this point, a believer is justified, declared righteous, through faith, without reliance on works. Our righteousness rests in the forgiveness of sins, which then forms the foundation for building a character acceptable before the Judgment Seat.

Abraham believed the gospel for ten years before his faith was counted to him for righteousness. This teaches that justification does not come the instant a man believes, but at the moment of obedience through baptism into the Name. Without this, even a believer will die in his sins.

Thus Abraham’s experience demonstrates a twofold justification: first by faith, and then by works. Paul rightly says he was justified by faith when his belief was counted to him for righteousness. James rightly says he was justified by works when he offered up Isaac. His faith worked together with his deeds, and was perfected by them. Scripture was fulfilled: “Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God.” As James concludes: “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:24).

James 2:21–24 shows what might be called a twofold justification. Yet in reality, it is not two separate justifications, but one, expressed in cause and effect. Faith is the motive principle: it begins with the forgiveness of past sins and is brought to completion through obedience, even unto death.

We might put it more simply: no exaltation without probation. If a man believes and obeys the gospel, his past sins are forgiven in Christ. But if, after this, he walks according to the course of the world, his faith is shown to be dead and he forfeits his hope of eternal life.

On the other hand, if one becomes a true son of Abraham and, “by patient continuance in well-doing, seeks for glory, honour, and immortality” (Rom. 2:7), he will receive everlasting life in the Paradise of God.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The faith of Abraham.

What obligation, then, did the sign of circumcision, the seal of Abraham’s justification by faith before circumcision, place upon those who received it?

Good question @dak

Paul answers directly: “I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law” (Gal 5:3).

This was a heavy and fearful burden. (Maybe not for you dak?) To seek justification by law, in hope of securing an everlasting inheritance in Canaan (which implies eternal life and glory), was to attempt the impossible. The law, weak through the flesh, only revealed sin and bound men under an unbearable yoke. No man born of the flesh had ever kept it without sin. Even perfect obedience could not impart eternal life, for justification comes not through the law BUT through faith in the promises of God.

Thus, the circumcised man was bound to keep a law he could never fully keep; and even if he did, it could not secure him life eternal. True justification is found only in Christ, who provides forgiveness of sins and the hope of eternal inheritance.

Circumcision itself symbolized the cutting off, or repudiation, of the flesh. Where this was not truly accomplished, forgiveness had to be sought through Christ.

Consider this in contrast with the claims of Seventh-day Adventists. They argue for the binding nature of the Sabbath law, but not circumcision. Yet Jesus taught that circumcision, being of the fathers (Abraham), took precedence even over the Sabbath, which was of Moses (John 7:22). By that reasoning, circumcision would be more binding than the Sabbath. But in truth, both found their fulfillment in Christ (Col. 2:10–17).

 

[Hiddenthings]

I was not sure whether to post this here, but I feel its truth is essential given some of the claims @dak has made about my knoweldge and understanding of the Torah.

Jesus’ Interpretation of the Law in John 7:22–24

John 7:22, “Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.”

Here, Jesus highlights the intentional design of the Law of circumcision (Leviticus 12), which could conflict with Sabbath observance. By saying “Moses, therefore,” He indicates that this apparent tension was deliberate, pointing to a deeper principle: one commandment may take precedence over another. The phrase “of the fathers” refers to the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 17:11), which the Mosaic Law could not nullify (Galatians 3:16–17). Even the Jews recognized this priority, as the rabbinical rule stated that circumcision overrides the Sabbath.

This passage demonstrates that the Law of Moses is not absolute in isolation; it allows for exceptions when a higher commandment or divine purpose is involved. If one commandment can supersede another within the Law itself, it raises the possibility that a completely new or higher law could supersede the Law entirely, foreshadowing the fulfillment found in Christ. This also connects conceptually with Galatians 3:13, where Christ redeems humanity from the curse of the Law by taking it upon himself.

In John 7:23, Jesus continues: “If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the Law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man’s whole body well?”

Here, he emphasizes that performing the work of circumcision on the Sabbath is required by the Law; thus, failing to do it would be a violation. The Greek term for “angry” (pikrainō) conveys deep bitterness, highlighting the intensity of the opposition He faced. The phrase “every whit whole” literally means “a whole man” (Roth), contrasting with circumcision, where rabbis considered the body to consist of 248 members. If the Law mandates ritual cleansing on a single part of the body, then surely a full healing of the entire body is not only permissible but justifiable.

Finally, in John 7:24, Jesus instructs: “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

This echoes His earlier act of commanding the paralytic to carry his mat (John 5:8), which might have appeared to violate the Sabbath. The Greek literally reads “the righteous judgment” (Young’s Literal), emphasizing that true justice transcends superficial appearances. This statement quotes Deuteronomy 16:18–20, immediately following instructions for observing the Feast of Tabernacles, linking righteous judgment to covenantal obedience and the proper understanding of God’s Law.

Through these verses, Jesus illustrates that the Law of Moses was designed to serve God’s purposes (Law was Spiritual!!!), not to be an inflexible burden. He challenges a legalistic, appearance-based interpretation and calls for judgment grounded in righteousness and the deeper intent of the Law. If one commandment can override another within the Mosaic framework, then the coming of Christ, fulfilling the Law and establishing a higher covenant (eternal), aligns perfectly with this principle: God’s purposes take precedence over mere ritual compliance.

 

[dak]

I was not sure whether to post this here, but I feel its truth is essential given some of the claims @dak has made about my knoweldge and understanding of the Torah.

Jesus’ Interpretation of the Law in John 7:22–24

John 7:22, “Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.”

Here, Jesus highlights the intentional design of the Law of circumcision (Leviticus 12), which could conflict with Sabbath observance. By saying “Moses, therefore,” He indicates that this apparent tension was deliberate, pointing to a deeper principle: one commandment may take precedence over another. The phrase “of the fathers” refers to the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 17:11), which the Mosaic Law could not nullify (Galatians 3:16–17). Even the Jews recognized this priority, as the rabbinical rule stated that circumcision overrides the Sabbath.

This passage demonstrates that the Law of Moses is not absolute in isolation; it allows for exceptions when a higher commandment or divine purpose is involved. If one commandment can supersede another within the Law itself, it raises the possibility that a completely new or higher law could supersede the Law entirely, foreshadowing the fulfillment found in Christ. This also connects conceptually with Galatians 3:13, where Christ redeems humanity from the curse of the Law by taking it upon himself.

So you've extracted all of that out of one verse, John 7:22, separated from its context, and yet ignored everything I've just previously posted from the scripture refuting your understanding of circumcision.

John 7:14-26 ASV
14 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
15 The Jews therefore marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself.
18 He that speaketh from himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh the glory of him that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you doeth the law? Why seek ye to kill me?
20 The multitude answered, Thou hast a demon: who seeketh to kill thee?
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I did one work, and ye all marvel because thereof.
22 Moses hath given you circumcision (not that it is of Moses, but of the fathers); and on the sabbath ye circumcise a man.
23 If a man receiveth circumcision on the sabbath, that the law of Moses may not be broken; are ye wroth with me, because I made a man every whit whole on the sabbath?
24 Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
25 Some therefore of them of Jerusalem said, Is not this he whom they seek to kill?
26 And lo, he speaketh openly, and they say nothing unto him. Can it be that the rulers indeed know that this is the Christ?

This is not about all the things you have made it out to be: you've missed the whole point in mentioning the outward circumcision of the Jews, and in no way does he validate their physical, outward, carnal-minded understanding of circumcision. Rather, "and on the Shabbat YOU circumcise a man". They not only misunderstood circumcision but likewise the Shabbat.

In John 7:23, Jesus continues: “If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the Law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man’s whole body well?”

Here, he emphasizes that performing the work of circumcision on the Sabbath is required by the Law; thus, failing to do it would be a violation. The Greek term for “angry” (pikrainō) conveys deep bitterness, highlighting the intensity of the opposition He faced. The phrase “every whit whole” literally means “a whole man” (Roth), contrasting with circumcision, where rabbis considered the body to consist of 248 members. If the Law mandates ritual cleansing on a single part of the body, then surely a full healing of the entire body is not only permissible but justifiable.

That has nothing to do with anything in the statement. There is a Shabbat hour in every day of the year for as long as the earth and world endure, since the very beginning, from Genesis 1-2:4, which teaches the sacred calendar day of seven yamim-hours in a yom-day.

Finally, in John 7:24, Jesus instructs: “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

This echoes His earlier act of commanding the paralytic to carry his mat (John 5:8), which might have appeared to violate the Sabbath. The Greek literally reads “the righteous judgment” (Young’s Literal), emphasizing that true justice transcends superficial appearances. This statement quotes Deuteronomy 16:18–20, immediately following instructions for observing the Feast of Tabernacles, linking righteous judgment to covenantal obedience and the proper understanding of God’s Law.

Through these verses, Jesus illustrates that the Law of Moses was designed to serve God’s purposes (Law was Spiritual!!!),

Show me where it is written that the Torah was spiritual?
Otherwise who are you to subvert the words of Paul in Rom 7:14a?

not to be an inflexible burden. He challenges a legalistic, appearance-based interpretation and calls for judgment grounded in righteousness and the deeper intent of the Law. If one commandment can override another within the Mosaic framework, then the coming of Christ, fulfilling the Law and establishing a higher covenant (eternal), aligns perfectly with this principle: God’s purposes take precedence over mere ritual compliance.

That's all nothing more than your opinion based on your own faulty exegesis: the commandments of Elohim are not given with the intent that one commandment should be used so as to override another, rather, you simply do not understand them.

 

[Hiddenthings]

So you've extracted all of that out of one verse, John 7:22, separated from its context, and yet ignored everything I've just previously posted from the scripture refuting your understanding of circumcision.

John 7:14-26 ASV
14 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
15 The Jews therefore marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself.
18 He that speaketh from himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh the glory of him that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you doeth the law? Why seek ye to kill me?
20 The multitude answered, Thou hast a demon: who seeketh to kill thee?
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I did one work, and ye all marvel because thereof.
22 Moses hath given you circumcision (not that it is of Moses, but of the fathers); and on the sabbath ye circumcise a man.
23 If a man receiveth circumcision on the sabbath, that the law of Moses may not be broken; are ye wroth with me, because I made a man every whit whole on the sabbath?
24 Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
25 Some therefore of them of Jerusalem said, Is not this he whom they seek to kill?
26 And lo, he speaketh openly, and they say nothing unto him. Can it be that the rulers indeed know that this is the Christ?

This is not about all the things you have made it out to be: you've missed the whole point in mentioning the outward circumcision of the Jews, and in no way does he validate their physical, outward, carnal-minded understanding of circumcision. Rather, "and on the Shabbat YOU circumcise a man". They not only misunderstood circumcision but likewise the Shabbat.



That has nothing to do with anything in the statement. There is a Shabbat hour in every day of the year for as long as the earth and world endure, since the very beginning, from Genesis 1-2:4, which teaches the sacred calendar day of seven yamim-hours in a yom-day.







Show me where it is written that the Torah was spiritual?
Otherwise who are you to subvert the words of Paul in Rom 7:14a?



That's all nothing more than your opinion based on your own faulty exegesis: the commandments of Elohim are not given with the intent that one commandment should be used so as to override another, rather, you simply do not understand them.

I had to laugh as this is by far the weakest of all your replies to date. I let you mull over the truth already presented. You have absolutely no comprehension of the Lords teaching in John 7 - none whatsoever...and I am the one who doesn't understand the Torah - wow.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Show me where it is written that the Torah was spiritual?
Otherwise who are you to subvert the words of Paul in Rom 7:14a?

That's all nothing more than your opinion based on your own faulty exegesis: the commandments of Elohim are not given with the intent that one commandment should be used so as to override another, rather, you simply do not understand them.

From our discussion, I’ve gathered a few things:

- You do not appear to recognize the divine (spiritual) design of the Torah, its purpose and its fulfillment in Christ.
- You do not seem to acknowledge the intentional inadequacies God placed within the Law (why is that?).
- When faced with the reality of John 7:22–24, you are unable to expound its meaning or discern the Lord’s deeper teaching.

John 7 is one example, but let’s consider another.

God, in His foreknowledge, placed a curse within the Law itself.

Galatians 3:13 declares: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.’” (ESV)

This is not unlike John 7:22–24, where the Law gives no instruction regarding circumcision on the eighth day when it falls on a Sabbath. The silence itself highlights a built-in tension! One Christ highlighted powerfully to those who lacked understanding of God's Spirit.

Christ also redeemed humanity from the Law of Moses (Galatians 4:5) and from the curse attached to it (Galatians 3:13).

The Law was not evil, it was holy, just, and good (Romans 7:12–14). Yet it exposed and emphasized human sin, thereby designating man a “sinner.” In this way, the Law came to represent, by metonymy (the cause standing for the effect), sin itself.

By coming under the curse of the Law, artificially, in the manner of his death alone while living a perfectly righteous life, Christ nullified that curse and rendered it powerless. In doing so, he secured the same deliverance for all who are “in Christ.”

I will present on another deficiency of the Law tonight, one that has no way of you twisting the record in your own favour.

 

[dak]

Christ also redeemed humanity from the Law of Moses (Galatians 4:5)

We have been over this too, and this passage does not say "the Law of Moses", which you added to it, and the reason it does not say that is because it is speaking about the law as interpreted by the Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, Elders, Scribes, and the Sanhedrin: their own handwritten dogmas and decrees which were against the people and brought the people into bondage, which the Master nailed to the stake and triumphed over the rulers of the people concerning those things. You didn't believe it last time and you surely will not hear it or believe it this time, that's your M.O., never listen, always talk over your perceived enemy-adversary-satan.

Galatians 4:3-5 KJV
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: [kosmos]
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

This is speaking about the interpretations of the Torah foisted upon the people in handwritten dogmas and decrees. The elements of the world are the same beggarly elements spoken of in verse nine.

Galatians 4:8-10 KJV
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Service to the sun, moon, stars, etc., which are not gods, and which service is forbidden in the Torah, (Deut 4:19, Deut 17:3), and yet the luni-solar calendar of the Yhudim, even from as far back as the Hasmoneans, (Maccabees), did and does exactly that, (particularly service to the moon in that calendar).

You plugged your ears, destroyed the following thread, and heard not a word.

Colossians 2:13-22
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he has made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
14 having blotted out the handwriting in dogmas that were against us, which were contrary to us: and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the stake:
15 having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Therefore let no one but the body of Meshiah judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new month or the Shabbat:
17 which are a shadow of the things to come.
18 Let no one defraud you of the prize through [false] humility and the religion of the messengers, dwelling in the things which he has seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increases with the increase of Elohim.
20 If you died with Meshiah from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas,
21 Handle not, Taste not, Touch not,
22 (all of which things are to perish with the using), after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Nowhere in the scripture is the Torah ever called dogmas, and Paul explains at the end of the portion above that he speaks of the commandments and teachings or doctrines of men: that is surely not speaking of the Torah. However dogma does appear in the Septuagint, and is always used for edicts, decrees, dogmas, and proclamations from kings and-or rulers. In the sense of the Colossians passage above it no doubt pertains to the rulers of the people, the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, and their handwritten dogmas and decrees which were against the people and contrary to us all: for their interpretations of the Torah were based on a natural minded, outward, and physical understanding of the Torah, which we know from Romans 7:14 is spiritual, just as Elohim Himself is Spirit, (John 4:24), and so also His Word is Spirit, and likewise the Testimony of the Meshiah is Spirit, (John 6:63).

The handwritten dogmas and decrees of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were binding upon the whole nation, and which were contrary and against the people, are the same letter which Paul says kills. The letter which kills is not the Torah. The letter which kills concerns the handwritten dogmas of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which Paul speaks about in Colossians 2:14. Meshiah indeed triumphed over them and their carnal minded rulings, dogmas, and decrees in many places throughout the Gospel accounts for all to see: making a show of them and their hypocrisy openly before all the people, which is one of the main reasons why the rulers of the people had him killed.

Did you catch what is in Col 2:20a this time around? The same Greek words for elements of the world are rendered in the above translator as rudiments of the world. Elements, weak and beggarly elements, rudiments, it's all the same: natural, carnal, physical, outward, and death: whether it is servitude to the sun, moon, stars, etc., (a calendar reference because of what follows in Gal 4:10, and therefore Pharisaic or Sadducaic laws and ordinances concerning their calendars), or whether it is handwritten dogmas and decrees such as handle not, taste not, touch not, according to the commandments and doctrines of men.

Colossians 2:20-22 TS2000
20 If you died with Meshiah from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas,
21 Handle not, Taste not, Touch not,
22 (all of which things are to perish with the using), after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Deaf and blind man walking.......

 

[Hiddenthings]

Colossians 2:20-22 TS2000
20 If you died with Meshiah from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas,
21 Handle not, Taste not, Touch not,
22 (all of which things are to perish with the using), after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Deaf and blind man walking.......

You are so conflicted dak you cannot see straight!

Context! Colossians 2:14 “by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.”

THE WRITTEN CODE: The word cheirographon refers to a handwritten note of indebtedness, like a record of debt. This recalls Christ’s parable of the unforgiving servant, where debt is equated with sin (Matt. 18:23–25). It also echoes the written curses of the Law in the trial of jealousy (Numbers 5:11–31).

HE TOOK IT AWAY, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS: God’s way of removing the consequences of Adam’s transgression revealed both His righteousness and His consistency. He did not abolish the law of sin and death, but by introducing the Mosaic Law, He prepared the way for its ultimate resolution. In Christ, every precept of that Law was perfectly fulfilled. In obedience, Jesus freely offered himself as a sacrifice, thereby coming under its curse, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree” (Gal. 3:13).

When the Law condemned a righteous man, its cancellation through Christ became entirely just and fitting!!!

This illustrates how one law may be counteracted by another. In the book of Esther, Mordecai could not revoke the king’s sealed edict of destruction against the Jews, but a new decree allowed them to defend themselves, nullifying the enemy’s scheme. In the same way, the Mosaic Law, a burden “which neither we nor our fathers could bear” was neutralized. Its effects have been overturned for all who are redeemed in Christ.

What you fail to acknowledge is Yahwehs purpose with the Law was made complete in Christ and no longer can it condemn!

What is required is for you to show an understanding on what the Law could not do. Only then will you behold the Laws inner beauty!

 

[Behold]

We have a very different understanding.

The Cross of Christ is the New Covenant.