Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

[Muna]

5 Now she who is really a widow, and left alone, trusts in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day.
6 But she who lives in [b]pleasure is dead while she lives.
7 And these things command, that they may be blameless.

Some translation use 'spiritually dead' to describe such a person.
She certainly has not kept God in her mind in what she is doing.
Her husband is dead, who maybe while living restrained her sinful indulgences, now the restraint is gone, would show she was not inwardly converted.


AMP
Whereas she who lives for pleasure and self-indulgence is spiritually dead even while she still lives.
AMPC
Whereas she who lives in pleasure and self-gratification [giving herself up to luxury and self-indulgence] is dead even while she [still] lives.
BRG
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
CSB
however, she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.
CSBA
however, she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.
CEB
But a widow who tries to live a life of luxury is dead even while she is alive.
CJB
But the one who is self-indulgent is already dead, even though she lives.
CEV
A widow who thinks only about having a good time is already dead, even though she is still alive.
DARBY
But she that lives in habits of self-indulgence is dead [while] living.
DLNT
But the one living-indulgently is-dead while living.
DRA
For she that liveth in pleasures, is dead while she is living.
ERV
But the widow who uses her life to please herself is really dead while she is still living.
EASY
But some widows only want to enjoy themselves. For a widow like that, her spirit is already dead, even while she is still alive.
EHV
But the widow who lives only for her own pleasure is dead, even while she lives.
ESV
but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.
ESVUK
but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.
EXB
But the widow who ·uses her life to please herself [lives in luxury; is self-indulgent] is really dead while she is alive.
GNV
But she that liveth in pleasure, is dead, while she liveth.
GW
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead although she is still alive.
GNT
But a widow who gives herself to pleasure has already died, even though she lives.
HCSB
however, she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.
ICB
But the widow who uses her life to please herself is really dead while she is still living.
ISV
But the self-indulgent widow is just as good as dead.

Yeah, for example, spiritually dead might be "let the dead (spiritually so) bury their dead (which are physcially so). So someone can be spiritually dead (to God) yet physically alive while another is physically dead (as the body without the spirit is natually dead).

But someone can be dead in their sins (as we all were) but made alive in Christ, and so we were all once dead (but now "made alive") while in the flesh, and so wouldn't twice dead apply to what is living (spiritually so) but has died (in that way)? See what I mean?

 

[HealthyShape]

Jesus said in Matthew 22:32, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Saints never die.

Jesus said in Mark 12:27 records, “He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”

Jesus said in Luke 20:38 records, “For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”

The Bible says they are alive.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Here are the three places that men can currently be found – heaven, earth, and hell. Whilst saved and lost can both be found on earth, only the redeemed are in heaven and only the wicked are in hell. Revelation 5:3 repeats that, saying, “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”

Ephesians 3:14-15 alludes to the only two places where God's people can be found today, saying, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

Family or 'patria' represents paternal descent lineage, family kindred. It is also found in Luke 2:4, Acts 3:25 denoting house[hold] or family.

Ephesians 1:10 records: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

Colossians 1:20: “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

When Christ comes He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31, of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Jude 14 similarly says, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Luke 9:28-31 says of Christ, “he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”

Moses and Elijah were still very much alive and kicking!!!

Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Jesus was prepared to welcome Stephen home. His spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

Once a person gets saved they are made spiritually alive through spiritual resurrection. This involves a spiritual birth. As a result, they enter into eternal life and consequently never die.

Death for the believer, is not the end. It is the beginning of the eternal state! There, the elect is liberated from all the physical bodily afflictions that blight our earthly sojourn. Our body may die and go into the grave, awaiting the resurrection, but our spirit goes immediately into the presence of God.

Repeated Scripture proves that bodily death cannot separate the believer from Christ. Whether it is in life or whether it is in death, nothing can separate God’s people from their Lord. Where He is we will be also.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

When Jesus comes on the day of redemption, on the last day, the bodies of all believers will be resurrected in the resurrection of the just and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’
‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:10 tells us that Christ “died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

The writer to the Hebrews censures your beliefs in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come (plural perfect active indicative)unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest … But ye are come (plural perfect active indicative) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Here, currently, we see where the dead in Christ are right now. They are not hovering about aimlessly upon death as you would suggest. These highlighted references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

We have access to the holy of holies through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. We now have an open heaven. Hebrews 10:19-20 confirms: “Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh.”

I said "in the Old Testament".

It seems to me that frequently, you just want to present a high number of verses, even though they are not even useful.

 

[HealthyShape]

The fall of the National Israel as the "representation" of the Kingdom of God on earth, or the fall of the church as spiritually Babylon. Neither of which took place in 70 AD.

The first one obviously did.

 

[HealthyShape]

Jesus Christ described Abraham's bosom, do you believe what He said was based on Greek myths?
Or on truth?

Jesus used many cultural references. Scholars do not even agree if it was a parable or not.

However, the idea of the soul living after death in the paradise or in some torment was not known in the Old Testament, which is my point. The Old Testament taught death and waiting/hope for the resurrection of the righteous people, possibly only of Israelites (not a universal resurrection of everyone on the planet).

We can easily find it in encyclopedias or in Bible dictionaries, it is not really a topic of debate:

Afterlife: Jewish Concepts | Encyclopedia.com

AFTERLIFE: JEWISH CONCEPTS The concept of an afterlife in Judaism took shape gradually and was rarely cast into dogmatic or systematic form. The Jewish idea of the afterlife has focused upon belief in either corporeal resurrection or the immortality of the soul. While one or the other of these...

www.encyclopedia.com

On the other hand, Gentile nations did not have the idea of the resurrection, because they already believed in a conscious afterlife/immortality of soul. And before the New Testament period, these two worldviews got mixed.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The first one obviously did.

Nope, not in 70AD! LOL.

 

[Davidpt]

Sheol? The righteous went to Abraham's bosom to await Christ and be perfected.

The wicked, unbelieving, went to fiery torments such as is described Hell fire.

Lake of Fire is the final solution, Hell gets thrown into it. That is the end destiny of all that do not believe.

Sheol is the place of the physically dead when they physically die.
To me it was split into two parts, Paradise of Abraham's bosom and the fiery torments of hell fire.

Abraham's bosom is no more, it went into heaven and all the righteous dead under the Old Covenant went into heaven with Christ when He ascended. What is left behind is hellfire.

They had to wait for Christ as they could not be perfected without the New Covenant.
They all died without receiving the promises, even though they had faith, they were still held captive in death and not allowed into heaven until Christ came and died so that those who believe could have eternal life, as Christ is the DOOR into heaven to live with the Father.

Hebrews 11 and the faithful OC saints of God

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented

38 (of whom the world was not worthy). They wandered in deserts and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise,

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Do you then believe cultish nonsense that something disembodied, a soul in this case, has body parts? After all, there is no denying it, the rich man has fingers and a tongue, clearly body parts. If the rich man has a finger and a tongue, it's only logical that he also has hands, legs, feet, so on and so on. No reasonable person could possibly think that the soul that leaves the body upon death, it is equipped with body parts. No it isn't. The part of the person that is equipped with body parts is left behind when that person dies. Everybody knows that, including you.


So why would you have us believe that the Luke 16 parable is meaning what happens to the souls of the lost upon death? Why not agree with the Bible instead, in regards to the lost? First there is physical death, then there is a bodily resurrection, then there is a judgment, then there is the casting of these into the LOF. Now they are bodily, exactly what the parable in Luke 16 is describing. No one's soul that leaves the body upon death is equipped with body parts, such as fingers, tongues, etc.

The problem is this. Some ppl just can't accept that Jesus can be speaking prophetically at times and that He isn't literally applying these things immediately upon the death of someone lost.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Souls with fingers and tongues--how absurd that that is. Per a nonsensical view like yours, they don't even need to be bodily resurrected. They already have bodies. Anyone with a tongue and fingers does not equal disembodied, it contradicts it.

Do yourself a favor. Quit thinking that you are never wrong about any of these things. Try and use some common sense once in awhile, that it is nonsensical that the soul that exits the body upon death is equipped with body parts, such as a tongue, fingers, etc. Therefore, making a future bodily resurrection moot since they don't need to be bodily resurrected if they already possess bodies upon death.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus used many cultural references. Scholars do not even agree if it was a parable or not.

However, the idea of the soul living after death in the paradise or in some torment was not known in the Old Testament, which is my point. The Old Testament taught death and waiting/hope for the resurrection of the righteous people, possibly only of Israelites (not a universal resurrection of everyone on the planet).

We can easily find it in encyclopedias or in Bible dictionaries, it is not really a topic of debate:

Afterlife: Jewish Concepts | Encyclopedia.com

AFTERLIFE: JEWISH CONCEPTS The concept of an afterlife in Judaism took shape gradually and was rarely cast into dogmatic or systematic form. The Jewish idea of the afterlife has focused upon belief in either corporeal resurrection or the immortality of the soul. While one or the other of these...

www.encyclopedia.com

On the other hand, Gentile nations did not have the idea of the resurrection, because they already believed in a conscious afterlife/immortality of soul. And before the New Testament period, these two worldviews got mixed.

Jewish religious thinking varied, was not monolithic
Jesus told the Jews many things which were contrary to their religious view of the universe.
As in the resurrection, that God is not the God of the dead.
Jesus did not draw on other cultures for inspiration.

The way I viewed the Greeks ideas on the afterlife, is they had some fallen angel information, as in demonic knowledge.
You do recall the time Paul casts out the evil spirit of divination in the girl in Acts, who was telling the people to listen to the apostles. Greeks had their oracles too.

Matthew 22
23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are [f]mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels [g]of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

 

[Scott Downey]

Is There an Expectation of Eternal Life in the Old Testament? - Topical Studies

The New Testament reflects much more specific revelation from God of the afterlife. Yet there are some strong Old Testament indicators, though not nearly as many....

www.biblestudytools.com

 

[Scott Downey]

Yeah, for example, spiritually dead might be "let the dead (spiritually so) bury their dead (which are physcially so). So someone can be spiritually dead (to God) yet physically alive while another is physically dead (as the body without the spirit is natually dead).

But someone can be dead in their sins (as we all were) but made alive in Christ, and so we were all once dead (but now "made alive") while in the flesh, and so wouldn't twice dead apply to what is living (spiritually so) but has died (in that way)? See what I mean?

People can only die twice.
2 deaths, one physical, one spiritual.

Even Adam and Eve disobeyed the commandment of God and spiritually died. God told them dying you shall die.
Their flesh would then eventually perish.
Adam and Eve had a simple law from God which they broke.
The passions of sin worked in them and brought forth their death.

Romans 7
5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were by the law, worked in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid! Nay, I would not have known sin, but through the law; for I would not have known lust, except that the law had said, “Thou shalt not covet.”

8 But sin, taking occasion through the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence; for without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;
10 and the commandment, which was ordained to bring life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me and by it slew me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since there are none righteous, and all have disobeyed the commandment(s) of God, all are spiritually dead when they disobey.

I do believe Adam and Eve are in heaven today, as God made a sacrifice for them when He killed those animals to make them a covering.
Only by the mercy and love of God can we who were dead, be made alive again in the Spirit.

 

[Lizbeth]

I am studying preterism and while I think some of what is claimed by full preterists is true I'm not inclined to believe that all of the prophecies have been fulfilled. In other words, I'm on the proverbial fence. I appreciate any good insights that you can share. Thank you in advance!

I think full preterists may be looking at things too literally and intellectually, and they need more illumination of the Holy Spirit.

God and His word was given and revealed first to the Jews/Israel, and Jesus came and spoke first to the Jews/Israel, so we do need first to understand and accept that He was talking to them (first) and put ourselves in their place to hear as they would have heard it. The gospel is to the Jew first...........then the Gentile. Being the prophet that Moses foretold about, Jesus was certainly prophesying to Israel about the coming desolation and destruction of Jerusalem and their nation with the Matthew 24 verses (and corresponding verses in the other gospels), but also I believe woven into those prophetic words are truths and warnings for the Gentiles also. As the bible says "these things happened unto Israel and were written down as ensamples" for the church's admonishment. The bible also says "tribulation and anguish upon the souls of men who do evil, of the Jew first, then the Gentile". So it wasn't just the gospel that was to the Jew first then the Gentile, but also judgment. I believe that as there was an end time for Israel and the old covenant, and there will be an end time for the Gentiles (world), as I see it, which we seem to be hurtling towards as we speak. I believe what happened to Jerusalem and Israel in 70AD in her apostasy and rejection of Christ, is an "ensample" of how things will go for the apostate church and the world in the end of this age. And like then, God will rescue and shield His believing faithful flock from His wrath. Another principle the Lord showed me is what Solomon wrote...."what has been will be again." I hope you will find this helpful.....encourage you to seek and ask the Lord to show you the truth.

 

[rwb]

In this the Full Preterists are not correct. It was not a "spiritual" coming of Christ in AD 70. It was Christ's bodily return in AD 70 to the Mount of Olives location, just as Zechariah 14:4-5 had predicted. The OT and the NT are both replete with proof that this happened back in the first century.


You call this a "vague verse", but it is anything but that. You are not including the Matt. 16:27 verse just before this one. Christ was going to return in the glory of His Father with the angels, to give rewards to all according to their works. And there would be some standing in front of Christ who would not physically die before they saw Christ bodily coming in His kingdom to perform these judgment actions. Nothing "vague" about this at all. It's pretty direct.

We've had this discussion before! Your doctrine cannot be biblically or historically proven sound! FP is a doctrine built on man's imagination!

 

[bdavidc]

I am studying preterism and while I think some of what is claimed by full preterists is true I'm not inclined to believe that all of the prophecies have been fulfilled. In other words, I'm on the proverbial fence. I appreciate any good insights that you can share. Thank you in advance!

Let me direct you to some passages that will explode full preterism and keep your feet on the ground of truth. These are the passages that teach us that, while part of prophecy is fulfilled, there is still a great deal that has not been fulfilled yet and is still to be looked for at the return of Christ.

1. The Return of Christ Is Still Future

Acts 1:11 — “This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

He ascended visibly and bodily, so He will return visibly and bodily. That has not yet happened.

Matthew 24:30 — “Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven… and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds.”

Not “some will see it and some will not see it, because they are already far away,” but “all the tribes of the earth” shall see it.

2. The Resurrection Is Still Future

John 5: 28–29 — “The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth.”

That has not yet happened.

1 Thessalonians 4: 16–17 — “The dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them.”

That means all, worldwide. It is not a spiritualized “resurrection” or something that was past only in New Testament times.

1 Corinthians 15: 52 — “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump… the dead shall be raised incorruptible.”

Notice that Paul explicitly connects this with the transformation of our mortal bodies into an incorruptible state, and our mortal bodies have not yet been transformed, so neither has this verse.

3. The Final Judgment Is Still Future

Hebrews 9: 27 — “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

But men are still dying, so judgment is still to come.

Revelation 20: 11–12 — “I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God… and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books.”

This is a global scene and has not happened yet.

4. The New Heaven and New Earth Are Still Future

Revelation 21: 1–4 — “There shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain.”

But death and sorrow exist on earth today, so this passage has not been fulfilled yet.

2 Peter 3: 10–13 — “The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat… Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth.”

The earth still stands today, so we are still waiting for this.

5. Warnings Against Saying “It’s All Done”

2 Timothy 2: 17–18 — Paul warned about Hymenaeus and Philetus “who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.”

That’s exactly what full preterism does, it says the resurrection is past, and Paul says that is a horrible error.

So the good sources are the Scriptures themselves. They expose the error of full preterism by showing what has already happened (like Jerusalem’s destruction in Matthew 24: 2, Luke 21:20–24), and what is still clearly future (Christ’s return, resurrection, final judgment, new heaven and earth).

 

[Muna]

People can only die twice.
2 deaths, one physical, one spiritual.

Even Adam and Eve disobeyed the commandment of God and spiritually died. God told them dying you shall die.
Their flesh would then eventually perish.
Adam and Eve had a simple law from God which they broke.
The passions of sin worked in them and brought forth their death.

Romans 7
5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were by the law, worked in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid! Nay, I would not have known sin, but through the law; for I would not have known lust, except that the law had said, “Thou shalt not covet.”

8 But sin, taking occasion through the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence; for without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;
10 and the commandment, which was ordained to bring life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me and by it slew me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since there are none righteous, and all have disobeyed the commandment(s) of God, all are spiritually dead when they disobey.

I do believe Adam and Eve are in heaven today, as God made a sacrifice for them when He killed those animals to make them a covering.
Only by the mercy and love of God can we who were dead, be made alive again in the Spirit.

Thanks, I am on the fence with the twice dead thing myself

 

[Muna]

I think full preterists may be looking at things too literally and intellectually, and they need more illumination of the Holy Spirit.

God and His word was given and revealed first to the Jews/Israel, and Jesus came and spoke first to the Jews/Israel, so we do need first to understand and accept that He was talking to them (first) and put ourselves in their place to hear as they would have heard it. The gospel is to the Jew first...........then the Gentile. Being the prophet that Moses foretold about, Jesus was certainly prophesying to Israel about the coming desolation and destruction of Jerusalem and their nation with the Matthew 24 verses (and corresponding verses in the other gospels), but also I believe woven into those prophetic words are truths and warnings for the Gentiles also. As the bible says "these things happened unto Israel and were written down as ensamples" for the church's admonishment. The bible also says "tribulation and anguish upon the souls of men who do evil, of the Jew first, then the Gentile". So it wasn't just the gospel that was to the Jew first then the Gentile, but also judgment. I believe that as there was an end time for Israel and the old covenant, and there will be an end time for the Gentiles (world), as I see it, which we seem to be hurtling towards as we speak. I believe what happened to Jerusalem and Israel in 70AD in her apostasy and rejection of Christ, is an "ensample" of how things will go for the apostate church and the world in the end of this age. And like then, God will rescue and shield His believing faithful flock from His wrath. Another principle the Lord showed me is what Solomon wrote...."what has been will be again." I hope you will find this helpful.....encourage you to seek and ask the Lord to show you the truth.

This makes the most sense to me also

 

[KUWN]

Your "guarantee" of this link putting an end to preterism is a mere assumption. I found this Dallas Theological Seminary dissertation as full of holes as Swiss cheese - no disparagement to my favorite cheese intended.

To be equally impartial, I also find Dr. Kenneth Gentry's dissertation to have quite a few holes in it. His book "Before Jerusalem Fell" really needs some revision to tighten the proof of an early date composition for Revelation, which from its internal evidence was written somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60. No earlier, and no later.

Sweeping generalizations are kind of hard to respond to. You offer no evidence to your dictatorial conclusions. I can only assume that you did not read the dissertation or had already made up your mind before you studied non-preterists scholars. So I do not waste any more of your time, I will ignore you. Best of luck for you here on the forum.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus was certainly prophesying to Israel about the coming desolation and destruction of Jerusalem and their nation with the Matthew 24 verses (and corresponding verses in the other gospels), but also I believe woven into those prophetic words are truths and warnings for the Gentiles also.

Matthew chapter 24 was specifically speaking to the church on the signs that would proceed the Lord's second coming and they didn't take place in 66-70AD

Matthew chapter 24:15 Daniel's AOD, Matthew chapter 24:21 The Great Tribulation, and Matthew 24:29-31 the Lords second coming and resurrection of all, these are "Future Events" unfulfilled

 

[WPM]

I said "in the Old Testament".

It seems to me that frequently, you just want to present a high number of verses, even though they are not even useful.

Lol. It seems like you have absolutely no response to the inspired Word.

 

[Scott Downey]

Thanks, I am on the fence with the twice dead thing myself

​

Romans 3 and 4 are good to study about sin

Abraham Justified by Faith​

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father[a] has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth​

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

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Those to whom God will not impute to them their sin, are preserved spiritually alive, they live to God.
God is at work in them to bring them to Himself.
What a blessed state of such a person. that even though sinful, God does not hold it against them, he forgets their sins.

That is genuine grace and favor from Him to you.
Why even your believing in His Son is His gift in that He has granted that you will believe.

Philippians 1
27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but [f]to you of salvation, and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.
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Jesus teaches us how this works out in our lives in John 6, the flesh profits nothing, it is the Spirit who gives life.
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43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Turn Away​

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

 

[3 Resurrections]

We've had this discussion before! Your doctrine cannot be biblically or historically proven sound! FP is a doctrine built on man's imagination!

Correction: Full Preterists do NOT teach a bodily return of Christ in AD 70 to the Mount of Olives, (as the prophet Zechariah predicted during that siege period for Judah and Jerusalem). Most of the FP believe Christ Jesus abandoned His glorified body as He ascended to heaven in Acts 1, and existed from then onward only in the Spirit. This is patently false, as the Scriptures teach that Christ as our divine / human mediating Great High Priest still retains that glorified resurrected body in heaven that came out of the grave back in AD 33.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The bible also says "tribulation and anguish upon the souls of men who do evil, of the Jew first, then the Gentile". So it wasn't just the gospel that was to the Jew first then the Gentile, but also judgment. I believe that as there was an end time for Israel and the old covenant, and there will be an end time for the Gentiles (world), as I see it, which we seem to be hurtling towards as we speak. I believe what happened to Jerusalem and Israel in 70AD in her apostasy and rejection of Christ, is an "ensample" of how things will go for the apostate church and the world in the end of this age. And like then, God will rescue and shield His believing faithful flock from His wrath. Another principle the Lord showed me is what Solomon wrote...."what has been will be again." I hope you will find this helpful.....encourage you to seek and ask the Lord to show you the truth.

Exactly so. God brought judgment already on Israel back during the AD 66-70 years as the fulfillment of the "Song of Moses" ("the Lord shall judge His people" - Deut. 32:36). Both the dead and the living were judged, just as Paul told Timothy a judgment of the living and the dead was "about to" take place at that time (2 Tim. 4:1 - written around AD 67). But since then, there is destined to be yet another Great White throne judgment in our future at the third coming of Christ, when all the people of the nations who have lived and died under the New Covenant conditions will also face the last Great White Throne judgment.

It's just as you have noted Solomon writing - "what has been will be again".