Does Daniel 7:21–22 Support Amillennialism or Premillennialism?

[Davidpt]

I knew that Preterists, Partial Preterists and Amillennialists who feel the need to are immediately going to do this:

1. Attack you for using ChatGPT - even though it was only to write what you wanted to write in a clearer format.

2. Assert that Daniel 7:21 = Nero.

But that means that Revelation 11:15-19 has already been fulfilled. Preterists & Partial Preterists will assert that it occurred in 70 A.D, but the rest of the Amillennialists who disagree with them about that, will just get everything confused and be dancing around the scriptures again trying to get them to comply with Amilennialsm.

And that's already happened in this thread.

But to me it's so clear (note that Daniel 7:19-22 are explained in Daniel 7:23-27):

Daniel 7:21 & 25 = Revelation 11:7; 13:7: The beast's war against the saints of the Most High.
Daniel 7:22 & 26 = Revelation 19:20 - beast destroyed (there's NO "beast" being spoken of in Revelation 20:7-9); and verse 10 of Revelation 20 says:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Daniel 7:27 = Revelation 11:15:

"And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign to the ages of the ages."

The souls John saw in Revelation 20:4 are identified by the text as those who did not worship the beast or receive his mark on their right hands or on their foreheads.

Revelation 11:11-12 = Revelation 20:4:

"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.:

Daniel speaks about what leads to it here:

"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." (Daniel 7:21-22).

And it's explained here:

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him." (Daniel 7:25-27).

I believe (IMO) the foreshadow of the 4th beast and of the end time is Antiochus IV Epiphanes but he did not complete the time of the end but he became a forerunner (type).

Amills will ritually dance around on these passages like they're walking on hot coals. They have to. And it's already started in this thread.

Other than your mentioning of A4E, and that I prefer not to go there since we can't agree about him to begin with, thus not on the same page about, everything else though that you submitted I think we are pretty much on the same page about.

 

[Truth7t7]

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Until the Ancient of days came---this is meaning the following for one--Revelation 19:11-21.

But that is only a portion of verse 22. There is more, such as this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High---meaning this in Revelation 20:4---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them

Then there is also this in verse 22---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom---meaning everything recorded in Revelation 20:4, that that is what marks when the time has come for the saints to possess the kingdom. Not only does Revelation 20:4 mark the beginning of that time, so does Revelation 11:15 mark the beginning of when the saints possess the kingdom. Obviously, when the time comes that they possess the kingdom, it can't precede the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

You intentionally disregard and remove scripture in context trying to create a 1,000 year mortal kingdom on this earth by "isolating" Daniel 7:22 and disregarding the contextual chapter "Why"?

Daniel 7:9-10 below shows the second coming and final judgment (The Books Were Opened) Revelation 20:11-15 in the GWTJ is taking place

Daniel 7:18 shows the Saint possess "The Eternal Kingdom" the forever, even forever and ever kingdom, not a mortal temporary 1,000yr kingdom on this earth as you falsely suggest

Daniel 7:22 does nothing more than "Repeat" the very same second coming, final judgement, and Saints possessing "The Eternal Kingdom"

You desperately try to remove the context of scripture as shown to falsely create a mortal 1,000yr kingdom on this earth that doesn't exist in scripture, it's that simple

Daniel 7:8-18KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Not to mention, the sheep and goats judgment also marks the beginning of when the saints take possession of the kingdom.

After all, it does say the following, for one--, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world(Matthew 24:34). If that it is not a clear example of taking possession of the kingdom, what is it a clear example of? IMO, The sheep and goats judgment match both Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 19:21, yet is not involving Revelation 20:11-15 at this point.

IOW, the sheep and goats judgment is only involving OSAS and NOSAS within the body of Christ, the church. The sheep being the profitable servants within the church, the goats being the unprofitable within the church. Unlike the GWTJ where no one is depicted as standing on His right vs standing upon His left, and each group as a whole answering Jesus in the same manner. No one is doing anything like that in Revelation 20:11-15, answering Jesus in the same manner, as if they have been divided into 2 groups.

Here is how the goats as a group answer Jesus.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


Imagine someone such as Cain standing among the goats and he too answering Jesus in this same manner? Then shall Cain also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Come on now, seriously, that makes sense of the text exactly how???

The Sheep/Goats is nothing more than a "Parable" of the GWTJ in Revelation 20:11-15 as Matthew 25:46 below shows the "Final Judgement" taking place as the wicked go into "Everlasting Punishment" and the righteous into "Eternal Life" its that simple and your not going to change God's words of truth before your eyes

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[IndianaRob]

Let’s look at two key passages:





Here’s what I want to draw attention to:

A Rare and Powerful Connection

The exact phrase "and judgment was given" appears only twice in the entire Bible (KJV):

Daniel 7:22 – "and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High"

Revelation 20:4 – "and judgment was given unto them"

That’s not a coincidence.

Both passages:

Use the same rare phrase

Refer to the saints

Refer to judgment/vindication

Result in the saints reigning or possessing the kingdom

It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Revelation 20:4 is picking up exactly where Daniel 7:22 leaves off.

And let’s be honest: no one — not even Amils — is going to argue that the “them” in Revelation 20:4 refers to the beast or the wicked. It's clearly the saints.

Continued....

The two verse are talking about the same timeframe and Daniel 7 gives the timing that both happened.

It happened when the kingdom was taken from the wicked Jews and given to the Godly Jews. In other words at the cross.

Mystery solved. Now all you have to do is figure out what 1000 represents in the Bible. Then you’ll understand how the millennium actually works.

 

[Davidpt]

The two verse are talking about the same timeframe and Daniel 7 gives the timing that both happened.

It happened when the kingdom was taken from the wicked Jews and given to the Godly Jews. In other words at the cross.

Mystery solved. Now all you have to do is figure out what 1000 represents in the Bible. Then you’ll understand how the millennium actually works.

At least you are being reasonable about some of this when you said---"The two verse are talking about the same timeframe". I at least fully agree with that.

What you proposed after that solved nothing, though. It ignores the fact that Daniel 7:21 has to precede when Daniel 7:22 is meaning, has to precede when Revelation 20:4 is meaning if that verse is meaning Daniel 7:22. Daniel 7:21 does not fit anything prior to the cross. But it does fit something after the time of the cross. Meaning the 42 month reign of the beast during the final days of this age.

It might look something like this. The time of the cross some 2000 years earlier. Followed by after 2000 years or maybe a little less than have gone by, the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast begins, thus Daniel 7:21. Followed soon after by the the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age, thus this in Daniel 7:22--'until the Ancient of days came', which then is what puts a stop to the persecution of the saints recorded in verse 21. Followed by the time has come that the saints possessed the kingdom, thus Revelation 20:4.

Your proposed view might be plausible if Daniel 7:21 fits before the time of the cross. Except it doesn't.

 

[grafted branch]

Daniel 7:21 must come before Daniel 7:22. The text says:

“...the same horn made war with the saints and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of Days came...”

One thing we must consider is that a true believer is never “overcome” or “prevailed against” while under the new covenant. In Philippians 1:20 Paul says Christ shall be magnified in his body whether by life or death. A believer who physically dies for their faith is not considered to be overcome but it is viewed as an honor and privilege to give one’s life as a testimony.

The seven churches in Revelation are all told they must overcome, which I would think most people would say that qualifies them as being saints if they overcome. Since the little horn or beast overcomes the saints you either have to place that prior to the cross (during the old covenant), or have the definition of saints not refer to new covenant believers, or I suppose you have to have the saints overcome while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints. I’m not sure how that last one could even be considered but you never know.

 

[Truth7t7]

The two verse are talking about the same timeframe and Daniel 7 gives the timing that both happened.

It happened when the kingdom was taken from the wicked Jews and given to the Godly Jews. In other words at the cross.

"False"

Daniel 7:22 depicts the "future" second coming, final judgement, and eternal kingdom as post #22 above clearly describes

 

[Truth7t7]

One thing we must consider is that a true believer is never “overcome” or “prevailed against” while under the new covenant. In Philippians 1:20 Paul says Christ shall be magnified in his body whether by life or death. A believer who physically dies for their faith is not considered to be overcome but it is viewed as an honor and privilege to give one’s life as a testimony.

The seven churches in Revelation are all told they must overcome, which I would think most people would say that qualifies them as being saints if they overcome. Since the little horn or beast overcomes the saints you either have to place that prior to the cross (during the old covenant), or have the definition of saints not refer to new covenant believers, or I suppose you have to have the saints overcome while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints. I’m not sure how that last one could even be considered but you never know.

Daniel 7:21 is referring to Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 13:7 and the (Two Witnesses are The Saints) that are overcome/prevailed against

(The Saints) in Revelation 13:7 are the (Two Witnesses) in Revelation 11:7, same beast making war and overcoming them (Two Witnesses/The Saints) the saints being overcome isn't the church as many falsely believe and teach

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:21-22KJV
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

 

[grafted branch]

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

I agree the saints in Revelation 13 that are overcome are not the new covenant Church.

The two witnesses are both overcome and killed, being overcome and killed are two separate things. How are the two witnesses overcome?

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree the saints in Revelation 13 that are overcome are not the new covenant Church.

The two witnesses are both overcome and killed, being overcome and killed are two separate things. How are the two witnesses overcome?

The scripture doesn't explain how they are overcome, if you have the answer by all means share it?

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

 

[grafted branch]

The scripture doesn't explain how they are overcome, if you have the answer by all means share it?

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Here is a list I have about the similarities of John the Baptist (JtB) and the two witnesses.



Revelation 11 two witnesses. Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias but in John 1:21 JtB answers “no” when asked if he is Elias. In some kind of way JtB is a single person that represents 2 people, himself and Elijah.

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Mathew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison (war), Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ (overcome), and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded (killed).

Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded during Herod’s birthday party which could be what making merry and sending gifts is referring to.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the Spirit of life enters into them and they stand on their feet. In Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection (3 ½ days?) the graves are opened and the bodies of the saints arose. It is possible that JtB was one of the saints that arose at that time.



I don’t necessarily think JtB is one of the two witnesses but this could be a type/antitype situation or something like that. There are far too many similarities between JtB and the two witnesses to ignore, so to answer your question on how the two witnesses are overcome, I’d say it’s when they question whether Jesus is the Messiah or not.

Also one other thing is JtB was beheaded and we see those in Revelation 20:4 as being beheaded also. If I’m not mistaken, JtB is the only person in the Bible listed as being beheaded.

 

[Davidpt]

One thing we must consider is that a true believer is never “overcome” or “prevailed against” while under the new covenant. In Philippians 1:20 Paul says Christ shall be magnified in his body whether by life or death. A believer who physically dies for their faith is not considered to be overcome but it is viewed as an honor and privilege to give one’s life as a testimony.

The seven churches in Revelation are all told they must overcome, which I would think most people would say that qualifies them as being saints if they overcome. Since the little horn or beast overcomes the saints you either have to place that prior to the cross (during the old covenant), or have the definition of saints not refer to new covenant believers, or I suppose you have to have the saints overcome while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints. I’m not sure how that last one could even be considered but you never know.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Do you see that word I have underlined in verse 7? Apparently, you are ignoring that word. The text states that 2 things, not just one thing, was given unto him, meaning the beast recorded in verse 5 and 6.

This is what was given him.

1) to make war with the saints

2) to overcome them

and in verse 5 in regards to this very same word I have underlined in verse 7, the text says---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


Therefore, the saints that refuse to worship it have no say so in the matter in regards to their fates---being made war against, and being overcome by the beast, the fact verse 7 says these things were given him.

Don't want to be made war with if a saint, don't want to be overcome by the beast if a saint? It's simple then, simply worship the beast and it's image and you will not be made war with nor overcome by the beast. But then you end up with an even worse fate, a million times worse than being persecuted, and in some cases killed by the beast, the wrath of God will be poured out upon you during the last 7 vials of wrath. Not to mention, you are then LOF bound after that.

 

[Jay Ross]

I will ignore the premise of the thread title as it is misleading.

The first hurdle that must be overcome is the understanding that the four beasts and the Little Horn of Damiel 7:1-12 are fallen heavenly hosts. For these entities to be effective they need to influence people groups, kingdoms, nation and Empires to deliver their outcomes over all of the peoples of the earth. This occurs by the people groups, kingdoms, nations and Empires choosing to live within the respective dominions of the respective beast/fallen angel to do the tasks that the fallen angels require of them.

The second hurdle that must be overcome is the understanding of when these events will occur and whether or not there are gaps between the events over the timing of the prophecies.

Daniel 7:21 will occur in around 20 years' time from now with a gap of over 1,000 years between verses 21 and 22.

Now there are a number of verses in the scriptures that describe the same events. Like the judgement of Isaiah 24:21-22 is also found in Daniel 7:11-12 and also in Revelation 12:7-11 as well as being found referenced in Revelation 16:12-16.

Daniel 7:22 is a future distant event that is still over 1,020 years into our future.

The 1,000 years, that Satan the fallen angels, the Little Horn and the judged kings of the earth will be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit, is described as a season in Daniel 7:12 and pointed to Matthew 24:32.

Now to create a document with all of the associated references in it, will take time, but I am sure that those who can see and hear God Prophetic words will be able to construct the document for themselves.

Shalom

PS: - The Little while period has a duration of around 24 years in which many of the events described in the Book of Revelation will unfold during.

 

[Douggg]

The first hurdle that must be overcome is the understanding that the four beasts and the Little Horn of Damiel 7:1-12 are fallen heavenly hosts.

Jay, the little horn will be a human being, who will have a birth certificate and recorded childhood upbringing into his adult age. fallen angels don't have that sort of background.

 

[Truth7t7]

so to answer your question on how the two witnesses are overcome, I’d say it’s when they question whether Jesus is the Messiah or not.

Your claim isn't remotely found or suggested of in scripture

The (Two Witnesses) will be empowered by God, they will be God's representatives on the earth during the Great tribulation, they will bring literal plagues upon this literal world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

 

[IndianaRob]

"False"

Daniel 7:22 depicts the "future" second coming, final judgement, and eternal kingdom as post #22 above clearly describes

What you say may be true in Mystery Babylonian Christianity but in True Christianity, the kingdom was taken from the wicked Pharisees and given to the saints of the most high.

You know the Bible tells us to come out of the Mystery Babylon system so we don’t get destroyed with her. You’re in a very dangerous position my friend and you’re running out of time.

Repent for the kingdom isn’t nigh anymore, it’s been here for 2000 years. You can do it Truth7t7, all you have to do is believe the Bible exactly as written and you’ll be good to go.

 

[IndianaRob]

At least you are being reasonable about some of this when you said---"The two verse are talking about the same timeframe". I at least fully agree with that.

What you proposed after that solved nothing, though. It ignores the fact that Daniel 7:21 has to precede when Daniel 7:22 is meaning, has to precede when Revelation 20:4 is meaning if that verse is meaning Daniel 7:22. Daniel 7:21 does not fit anything prior to the cross. But it does fit something after the time of the cross. Meaning the 42 month reign of the beast during the final days of this age.

It might look something like this. The time of the cross some 2000 years earlier. Followed by after 2000 years or maybe a little less than have gone by, the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast begins, thus Daniel 7:21. Followed soon after by the the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age, thus this in Daniel 7:22--'until the Ancient of days came', which then is what puts a stop to the persecution of the saints recorded in verse 21. Followed by the time has come that the saints possessed the kingdom, thus Revelation 20:4.

Your proposed view might be plausible if Daniel 7:21 fits before the time of the cross. Except it doesn't.

It’s impossible that Daniel 7:21 happened after the cross because the horn was Herod. Herod tried to kill Jesus, killed John the Baptist and persecuted the rest of God’s people.

• Herod the Great persecuted the righteous — e.g., the Massacre of the Innocents (Matthew 2:16), targeting potential rivals to his throne, including the infant Jesus.
• He was a blasphemous and politically manipulative ruler, known for building pagan temples and cooperating with Rome.
• He ruled during a crucial transitional time — from the Old Covenant to the New, just before Jesus’ ministry.

The kingdom has been taken from that wicked system and will never go back under the dominion of that system.

How am I wrong on this?

 

[Truth7t7]

What you say may be true in Mystery Babylonian Christianity but in True Christianity, the kingdom was taken from the wicked Pharisees and given to the saints of the most high.

You know the Bible tells us to come out of the Mystery Babylon system so we don’t get destroyed with her. You’re in a very dangerous position my friend and you’re running out of time.

Repent for the kingdom isn’t nigh anymore, it’s been here for 2000 years. You can do it Truth7t7, all you have to do is believe the Bible exactly as written and you’ll be good to go.

Your response has absolutely nothing to do with Daniel 7:21-22 that's the topic of the discussion

 

[IndianaRob]

Your response has absolutely nothing to do with Daniel 7:21-22 that's the topic of the discussion

Yeah that’s not true. Daniel 7:21-22 is about the saints taking the kingdom. Do you really not understand that?

Can you post verses that say the kingdom wasn’t taken from the Pharisees and given to the Godly Jews?

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, the little horn will be a human being, who will have a birth certificate and recorded childhood upbringing into his adult age. fallen angels don't have that sort of background.

Douggg, I happen to hold the view that the beasts and the Little Horn are fallen angels. That makes more sense to me than the beasts and the Little Horn has human form.

The kings of the earth who are also imprisoned at the same time as Satan, the four beasts and the Little Horn, their teeth and hair grows during the 1,000 years that they are imprisoned in the Bottomless pit whereas as confirmed in Rev 9. The Beast and the Little Horn, we are not told that they too exhibited human characteristics just like the Imprisoned kings of the earth.

Sorry, I do not believe that your logic supports your understanding.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, I happen to hold the view that the beasts and the Little Horn are fallen angels. That makes more sense to me than the beasts and the Little Horn has human form.

The kings of the earth who are also imprisoned at the same time as Satan, the four beasts and the Little Horn, their teeth and hair grows during the 1,000 years that they are imprisoned in the Bottomless pit whereas as confirmed in Rev 9. The Beast and the Little Horn, we are not told that they too exhibited human characteristics just like the Imprisoned kings of the earth.

Sorry, I do not believe that your logic supports your understanding.

Jay, the little horn is not going to appear out of nowhere like one of the angels in the bible. He is going to have a childhood of growing up as an adult. His background like any other human... i.e. baby, then child, then adult.