Spirit filled believer?

[Cross8527]

It is a good question. However, the answer is not what one might expect.

The miracles of Jesus's time were amazing--what you might expect from the Son of God. Even those of the twelve apostles. Amazing!

But then again, while Jesus was performing miracles, He also said some things--one of which was "It is an evil generation that seeks a sign" (a miracle). Which was indeed strange, because He himself was providing what that evil generation was seeking. But He also explained, saying, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father." Greater works than miracles--what? What could be greater works than the miracles Jesus did?

In going to the Father, what did Jesus say He would do? He would send another Helper, the Holy Spirit. And what did He say about spiritual activity? "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” In other words--those "greater works" made available by the Holy Spirit--would not be visible in this world, but at His word, would be "greater."

What does that all mean? It means--we should know better than to seek miracles like those Jesus and His twelve apostles did, and instead believe that we are able to participate in the "greater works" of Christ...without them ever being seen is this world. But is that enough, are we to be satisfied with knowing that we are doing what the world cannot see?

But there is a warning in all that--that those who chase after those lessor works and miracles, who make them their everything--have fallen short of the "greater works" promised by Christ.

I think it depends on how you look at it. miracles were never meant to be a sign for an evil generation nor were they meant to be signs period they were the fruits of faith and of the spirit. Divine faith creates divine works and things of that nature are not ever said to be done away with in scripture and I personally have seen a miracle of healing before so my question is why are peopkle so against it? especially since they are the things of the spirit and not the flesh and also that Jesus never said they were going to pass away no he said we would do greater things

 

[ScottA]

I think it depends on how you look at it. miracles were never meant to be a sign for an evil generation nor were they meant to be signs period they were the fruits of faith and of the spirit. Divine faith creates divine works and things of that nature are not ever said to be done away with in scripture and I personally have seen a miracle of healing before so my question is why are peopkle so against it? especially since they are the things of the spirit and not the flesh and also that Jesus never said they were going to pass away no he said we would do greater things

"The flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another."

So, yes, the fruits of the spirit extend into the natural world. However, miracles in the natural world--including those of the flesh--they are but a demon-stration of the "greater works", which those miracles done in the natural world only point to. This was much of the ministry of Christ--to show in the flesh God, and to demonstrate the things of heaven and the kingdom--as they are only "like" when limited to the comparisons of the things of this world. Such is the nature of parables.

So, where it is good to seek such miracles in the flesh and in this world by those who are of God--we do so against the Spirit--but yes, for that likeness to be shown also as good and from God. There is nothing wrong with it--so long as it is not the end of the matter, but the beginning--and does not take the place of the Spirit which it only points to.

Those who make natural miracles their end all--they are against God--evil.

 

[BlueNightingale]

The things of the spirit are strange because it defies the flesh, I have always believed that through Christ anything is possible and many say this as well but do we truly believe it?
Do you see people performing miracles? are our prayers requests or are the assurance?
I haven't seen many miracles and I have spoken with many Christians about this but few can actually say they saw the hand of God or a miracle or divine intervention

Then there are the cessationalists who outright deny that the spiritual gifts are for today and for the most part they seem to be right because you don't see many Christians who truly walk in the spirit whose presence can be felt when entering a room or who lays on hands and heals someone.

Even prayer for that matter seems to be a I hope he answers kind of thing it is not like when Jesus prayed or when he performed miracles he was assured he was confident he made his request but even just creating all that fish and bread as he did he seemed assured he would recieve it.

There is however another side to this, there are some believers one whom I even got to be in the presence of who are full of the spirit like I mean you can feel them just by being near them there is life in them and there are some believers out there who can actually lay on hands and heal or pray and be assured they will recieve

So what makes the difference I wonder? what makes one believer spiritually rich while the rest are just kind of well not?

It's that it's God's choice to answer and sometimes he just expects us to trust him with the miracles that you don't always see miracles.

Jesus said, "You believe in me because you have seen me, blessed are those who have not seen me and believed."

What defines someone as spiritually rich? Miracles do not make someone spiritually rich in my opinion.

Maybe it's the little old lady in her 80s who lived a fully normal life and still praying in the corner and didn't give up faith and devotion in silence that is more spiritually rich than the lady in her 20s having a real encounter with God after a mental breakdown.

Do you see where the hand is?

God is in both situations.

Let me add here, the difference in the situation is probably the old lady already praying didn't need the encounter to be saved, but the younger one did not understand enough.

 

[Behold]

what makes one believer spiritually rich while the rest are just kind of well not?

The level of Faith.

 

[BlueNightingale]

The level of Faith.

^^^^ amen

 

[Cross8527]

"The flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another."

So, yes, the fruits of the spirit extend into the natural world. However, miracles in the natural world--including those of the flesh--they are but a demon-stration of the "greater works", which those miracles done in the natural world only point to. This was much of the ministry of Christ--to show in the flesh God, and to demonstrate the things of heaven and the kingdom--as they are only "like" when limited to the comparisons of the things of this world. Such is the nature of parables.

So, where it is good to seek such miracles in the flesh and in this world by those who are of God--we do so against the Spirit--but yes, for that likeness to be shown also as good and from God. There is nothing wrong with it--so long as it is not the end of the matter, but the beginning--and does not take the place of the Spirit which it only points to.

Those who make natural miracles their end all--they are against God--evil.

So what then is the difference between miracles of the flesh and miracles of the spirit?

 

[Cross8527]

It's that it's God's choice to answer and sometimes he just expects us to trust him with the miracles that you don't always see miracles.

Jesus said, "You believe in me because you have seen me, blessed are those who have not seen me and believed."

What defines someone as spiritually rich? Miracles do not make someone spiritually rich in my opinion.

Maybe it's the little old lady in her 80s who lived a fully normal life and still praying in the corner and didn't give up faith and devotion in silence that is more spiritually rich than the lady in her 20s having a real encounter with God after a mental breakdown.

Do you see where the hand is?

God is in both situations.

Let me add here, the difference in the situation is probably the old lady already praying didn't need the encounter to be saved, but the younger one did not understand enough.

Yes you are absolutely correct, it is just odd to me that even they miracles happen they don't happen very often. people pray all the time for a miracle sometimes it happens but other times it never does I can pray for healing for a person all I want but never has it actually happened for me not once though another person I know laid hands on someone and they were instantly healed

not to mention if so many Christians are indeed spirit filled why then do the things of the spirit not only not make sense to them but also manifests in them?
Are we that spiritually dry?

 

[Rockerduck]

Yes you are absolutely correct, it is just odd to me that even they miracles happen they don't happen very often. people pray all the time for a miracle sometimes it happens but other times it never does I can pray for healing for a person all I want but never has it actually happened for me not once though another person I know laid hands on someone and they were instantly healed

not to mention if so many Christians are indeed spirit filled why then do the things of the spirit not only not make sense to them but also manifests in them?
Are we that spiritually dry?

1 Corinthians 12:7-9 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

 

[Cross8527]

1 Corinthians 12:7-9 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

Are you saying thatt the issue is that some have the gift and others have another gift?

 

[Rockerduck]

Are you saying thatt the issue is that some have the gift and others have another gift?

I'm not saying that, the Apostle Paul is saying that.

 

[ScottA]

So what then is the difference between miracles of the flesh and miracles of the spirit?

It is the difference between heaven and earth. The spirit is vastly greater, while the world and its natural elements, including those miracles in the flesh, is passing away.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And what evidence is there to say that the gifts died with the apostles?

The evidence was in the quality and frequency of them....

Today’s miracles are hit and miss...that was not the case in the first century. All who came to be healed of their sickness or disability were 100% cured. There were no failures. (Luke 4:40-41; Matt 4:24)

People often attend these faith healing sessions and walk away seemingly cured...only to have the problem come back a few days later.
The placebo effect can also be at work here....this is no miracle, but the power of the mind over the body. Science cannot explain it, but it’s the reason why they have to conduct double blind studies in their drug trials. Sugar pills have cured people, just because they believed in them.

If it is the same powerful spirit operating today, then explain the failures. Explain why there are not healing centres putting hospitals out of business? Emptying cemeteries of their dead?
The majority of people in the world are unbelievers. So there would only be Christians needing medical attention....and the unbelievers would be converted right away. If this is what God wanted, then explain their failures and inability to facilitate cures for all.

The other thing to consider was that miracles were not performed on believers....only on unbelievers in order to bring them to Christ.
The apostles did not use the gifts on themselves or on each other.
Paul said to Timothy....”Do not drink water any longer, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent cases of sickness.” (1 Tim 5:23) Why didn’t Paul just cure him?

This is what Bible study is all about....unless you know what it teaches in its entirety, you will assume a lot by the bits and pieces that are fed to the members of Christendom, leading them to all manner of divisions.
True Christianity has no such divisions. (1 Cor 1:10)

God’s spirit unites his people, it does not divide them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

No, the church I left belonged to the North American Baptist group of churches. The one I am currently attending is more of a Pentecostal church.

So being part of a charismatic church exposes you to these so called miracles?

From what you see...does any of it fit with what took place in the first century?
Did the apostles ever make a show of their miracles?
Is the falling down proof of God’s spirit? Couldn’t it just be a satanic trick....? What does it accomplish?

Is speaking in tongues a proof of God’s spirit? It’s gibberish and means nothing. I have spoken to those in charismatic churches only to discover that most fake them, or they would not be accepted by the other members. Only the honest ones will admit it.

Satan can only fool those who can be misled by him.....the ones who don’t bother to do their study of the Bible with a good translation as well as a good Concordance. You have to study all of it, not just the convenient bits. It takes time and effort, but most are willing to just be spoon fed. Ignorance is the devil’s playground.

 

[Nancy]

These issues all have to do with true and solid faith. We in the Western world are spoiled, we will be last and those other very poor countries will be first in the Kingdom.
All things even the smallest of things given is very appreciated, us? Not as it should be.
It's in those small pockets of the world where the Christians are poor and have nothing where faith is. They are grateful for EVERYTHING.
I have a long time friend who is also a Christian. She has friends in parts of Africa who sends her videos now and then.
She recently shared one with me, my heart melted.
They were speaking to her through a video on their phone. They were a 30 something couple who have made their homes among the poorest and sickest of people. They speak of raising the dead like it is a normal (if not regular) occurrence! The other stories they told as they were trekking to a different village were all in solid FAITH. They touched me deeply so, I think it is a faith problem with most Christians in the Western Countries...JMHO. Good thread as this I believe crosses most Christians minds at some time in their walk, it did me one time.
God be with you!

 

[Cross8527]

The evidence was in the quality and frequency of them....

Today’s miracles are hit and miss...that was not the case in the first century. All who came to be healed of their sickness or disability were 100% cured. There were no failures. (Luke 4:40-41; Matt 4:24)

People often attend these faith healing sessions and walk away seemingly cured...only to have the problem come back a few days later.
The placebo effect can also be at work here....this is no miracle, but the power of the mind over the body. Science cannot explain it, but it’s the reason why they have to conduct double blind studies in their drug trials. Sugar pills have cured people, just because they believed in them.

If it is the same powerful spirit operating today, then explain the failures. Explain why there are not healing centres putting hospitals out of business? Emptying cemeteries of their dead?
The majority of people in the world are unbelievers. So there would only be Christians needing medical attention....and the unbelievers would be converted right away. If this is what God wanted, then explain their failures and inability to facilitate cures for all.

The other thing to consider was that miracles were not performed on believers....only on unbelievers in order to bring them to Christ.
The apostles did not use the gifts on themselves or on each other.
Paul said to Timothy....”Do not drink water any longer, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent cases of sickness.” (1 Tim 5:23) Why didn’t Paul just cure him?

This is what Bible study is all about....unless you know what it teaches in its entirety, you will assume a lot by the bits and pieces that are fed to the members of Christendom, leading them to all manner of divisions.
True Christianity has no such divisions. (1 Cor 1:10)

God’s spirit unites his people, it does not divide them.

So no scriptural evidence just the lack of real miracles? The enemy desires that we live in unbelief of course he has many many fakes out there far more than true believers who actually walk in the gifts but this is the entire purpose of the enemy he wants us to be so disillusioned with these things that we don't believe in them any more and what is faith without belief? Is God not the same yesterday as he is today? does he change? or do we?

We live in an unbelieving generation and your unbelief is exactly what I am talking about. I have seen first hand that the gifts have not gone away much more rare yes but I personally saw my friend get healed instantly.

He believed and got cured do you think if he didn't believe he would have recieved this healing? all the people who Jesus healed what was the one thing he always wanted from them? faith in him. If your logic is based on a lack of evidence then it isn't faith your walking in, what is faith? Hebrews 11:1, which reads, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

 

[BlueNightingale]

Yes you are absolutely correct, it is just odd to me that even they miracles happen they don't happen very often. people pray all the time for a miracle sometimes it happens but other times it never does I can pray for healing for a person all I want but never has it actually happened for me not once though another person I know laid hands on someone and they were instantly healed

not to mention if so many Christians are indeed spirit filled why then do the things of the spirit not only not make sense to them but also manifests in them?
Are we that spiritually dry?

I honestly could not say. All I can say is God knows what to do.

I've experienced miracles before. Francis Chan said that when he prayed at first in other countries nobody was healed. When he prioritized love, then they could be healed.

I have not experienced this myself. I can also say that when Jesus himself went to one town to heal, he wasn't able to because of their lack of faith.

I have prayed for someone in my life to be healed and for maybe ten years, and no answer, and why? I don't know. I don't get to decide. I just have to surrender to what God wants.

 

[Cross8527]

I honestly could not say. All I can say is God knows what to do.

I've experienced miracles before. Francis Chan said that when he prayed at first in other countries nobody was healed. When he prioritized love, then they could be healed.

I have not experienced this myself. I can also say that when Jesus himself went to one town to heal, he wasn't able to because of their lack of faith.

I have prayed for someone in my life to be healed and for maybe ten years, and no answer, and why? I don't know. I don't get to decide. I just have to surrender to what God wants.

Ny personal belief is that unbelief has taken over the church because most Christians I ask about this all say the gifts have died out and if the church itself lives in unbelief how is the spirit supposed to show the wonders of God? Good on you for your your devotion to surrender that is very impressive

 

[Aunty Jane]

So no scriptural evidence just the lack of real miracles? The enemy desires that we live in unbelief of course he has many many fakes out there far more than true believers who actually walk in the gifts but this is the entire purpose of the enemy he wants us to be so disillusioned with these things that we don't believe in them any more and what is faith without belief? Is God not the same yesterday as he is today? does he change? or do we?

As I said...why would God deliberately confuse people by real miracles, if they could not tell the difference between the real and the fakes? By withdrawing the miracles, God exposes the frauds....and also those who are not walking by faith but still need to see miracles.....are you taken in by the trickster?...the greatest deceiver in existence!
You didn’t actually address anything that was presented by way of biblically based evidence....that is telling.

We live in an unbelieving generation and your unbelief is exactly what I am talking about. I have seen first hand that the gifts have not gone away much more rare yes but I personally saw my friend get healed instantly.

My unbelief is not in Christ and the genuine miracles of the first century...it comes from a thorough study of the Bible and an acknowledgment that there is a sound reason for the withdrawal of the gifts.
It is no surprise that gullible, biblically ignorant people are usually the first to cry “miracle”! The traits of a spiritual baby.

He believed and got cured do you think if he didn't believe he would have recieved this healing? all the people who Jesus healed what was the one thing he always wanted from them? faith in him. If your logic is based on a lack of evidence then it isn't faith your walking in, what is faith? Hebrews 11:1, which reads, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

What is belief? Can we make a belief into a reality? Medical science knows that we can.....the placebo effect is powerful, but it is seen in atheists and believers alike. Attaching God to the cure is the only difference. To whom does the atheist attribute their cure?

As you say, the devil is at work in this world, only too eager to fool those who do not study God’s word on any real level except to read certain scripture and give it the slant that they want it to say.

If you want to believe in miracles, then you go right ahead.....the Bible tells us why the gifts were to cease....
so that those who saw them would understand that the ‘counterfeit’ weeds operate at a sub-standard level when compared to the operation of God’s spirit.
Today’s so called miracles are not anything close to those of the first century. You asked the question...does God change? You have your answer.

A person’s spirituality is not determined by his lot in life, his education, or sociał standing...but by the development of spiritual qualities that must be seen in all of Christ’s true disciples. They will be at unity with one another believing and preaching the same truth in every nation.

 

[BlueNightingale]

Ny personal belief is that unbelief has taken over the church because most Christians I ask about this all say the gifts have died out and if the church itself lives in unbelief how is the spirit supposed to show the wonders of God? Good on you for your your devotion to surrender that is very impressive

In the beginning, not very impressive. A struggle and a fight. I swore at God. Fasted for days. Followed false dreams. Chased false signs. Thank God, that he is a good God, and gave me grace when I backed down.

 

[Cross8527]

As I said...why would God deliberately confuse people by real miracles, if they could not tell the difference between the real and the fakes? By withdrawing the miracles, God exposes the frauds....and also those who are not walking by faith but still need to see miracles.....are you taken in by the trickster?...the greatest deceiver in existence!
You didn’t actually address anything that was presented by way of biblically based evidence....that is telling.

My unbelief is not in Christ and the genuine miracles of the first century...it comes from a thorough study of the Bible and an acknowledgment that there is a sound reason for the withdrawal of the gifts.
It is no surprise that gullible, biblically ignorant people are usually the first to cry “miracle”! The traits of a spiritual baby.

What is belief? Can we make a belief into a reality? Medical science knows that we can.....the placebo effect is powerful, but it is seen in atheists and believers alike. Attaching God to the cure is the only difference. To whom does the atheist attribute their cure?

As you say, the devil is at work in this world, only too eager to fool those who do not study God’s word on any real level except to read certain scripture and give it the slant that they want it to say.

If you want to believe in miracles, then you go right ahead.....the Bible tells us why the gifts were to cease....
so that those who saw them would understand that the ‘counterfeit’ weeds operate at a sub-standard level when compared to the operation of God’s spirit.
Today’s so called miracles are not anything close to those of the first century. You asked the question...does God change? You have your answer.

A person’s spirituality is not determined by his lot in life, his education, or sociał standing...but by the development of spiritual qualities that must be seen in all of Christ’s true disciples. They will be at unity with one another believing and preaching the same truth in every nation.

You have it backwards God is not confusing people by performing real miracles the enemy is confusing people by making many fake ones, and there is not a single verse in scripture that states that the gifts or miracles have ceased not a single one and if the word of God itself doesn't say it why should we believe it? you chalk an actual healing done to the trick of the mind? Yes the mind is a powerful thing but the mere fact his faith even if it was just his mind doing the work made him cured just shows that faith even if a trick of the mind can and does create miracles he had stage four cancer btw yet his faith made him clean. You say people are gullible and spiritual babes for believing in such things yet Jesus never once said anything like that in fact he even could not do many miracles in one town because of their unbelief.

Not that he would not but rather could not, and I can see your very logical but that critically thinking mind will block your faith and in fact if you say they have ceased because of a lack of the real thing well that is the opposite mindset of one with faith

Blessed are they who believe without seeing remember? you do not have because you do not ask, if you can however show me one verse that says they have ceased then I will admit I am wrong but as far as I can tell there is not a single one and all throughout the word of God miracles happened because people had faith and those who doubted never saw them for themselves it is a pattern all throughout scripture so I will stand on his word not evidence what do you stand on?

Oh sorry I forgot to address the thing with Timothy and Paul, as to why he did not heal him well it never says but Paul also had a thorn at his side that he prayed to be removed but God wouldn't do it so maybe it has to do with something like that.