Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

[Episkopos]

I remember this Epi from the old 2004 forum. You fell very hard. I wonder if you are fully recovered from it. Instead of accepting you are just a man in need for forgiveness like anyone else you are now trying to get back to the 2.5 years of total victory over sin? How did that work out? How about it today? How long are you without sin today?

Jesus loves you man.

Yes, I fell from a very high place and it was devastating. I was in a daze for the first few years after that. I thought I'd blown it with God...in a permanent rejection. But over time I came to realize that I did great when the grace was raining...but the Lord wanted me to humble myself and be a dew seeker...seeking His touch in the early morning every day. DAVID was able to glean the dew every day...it's old school, but it works! So if there is no rain, there is still the dew. Righteousness is about DEW-ing. ;) I am at great peace now...the most peace I have ever known apart from being in the kingdom realm. :)


My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distill as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Deut 32:2


There are guests (the righteous) and there is the Bride (saints) but there is a third category...the devout, the Chasidim, who are like precious stones to God. The devout ones. That's where I see myself now. My heart has known the glorious path, and my mind has been renewed to understand things that are mysterious and that almost no one can relate to. But it is all for God's glory. I rejoice in the Lord in whatever capacity I am given.

 

[MatthewG]

So how does one seek God for this empowerment into a higher walk?

Hello Shepherd,

I don’t walk any higher or lower than anyone else. I’m on the same ground, the same elevation, as every other soul beside me. The only thing I truly know is this: “Abide in Jesus, for without Him you can do nothing.”

If that means anything at all, it means that everything good—everything righteous—is not something we produce from ourselves. No. It’s Him. It’s Christ who helps us in our failures, who brings forth the fruit of righteousness when we allow His Spirit to move through us.

Peace, mercy, forgiveness, encouragement—these are not self-made. They are born from the Spirit of Christ.
Heavenly wisdom comes down from Yahavah. It lives within us, close to the heart—even when that heart is broken.

God is near to those He has adopted as His children.
Believers in Jesus are given the ability to become sons and daughters of God, maturing in faith as they live, learn, eat, drink, and abide in Yeshua.

We ask God to help us—in our hearts and minds—as we walk this life.
We call out to the Father, Yahavah, the Lord God, not to retaliate against those who’ve wronged us, but to be led by His Spirit.

To do what is good for God. To do the work of God, which is to believe in the Son whom Yahavah has sent, and to love one another, just as He commanded.

The beautiful truth is this: it’s never me who does these good things. Not really.

The goodness, the righteousness, the truth—it all comes from the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God, who dwells within our hearts and souls. That’s how we know our prayers are heard. That’s how we know God is not far away.
This walk? It’s not easy. It’s hard. But it’s holy.

Abiding in Jesus
• John 15:4–5
“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me… for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
This directly supports your line: “Abide in Jesus, for without Him you can do nothing.”

Fruit of Righteousness / Spirit-led Goodness
• Galatians 5:22–23
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control…”
These fruits are not self-made, but born from the Spirit of Christ.
• Philippians 1:11
“Filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.”

God Near to the Brokenhearted
• Psalm 34:18
“The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit.”
This echoes your line: “Heavenly wisdom… lives within us, close to the heart—even when that heart is broken.”

Adoption as Sons and Daughters
• John 1:12
“But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God.”
• Romans 8:14–16
“For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God… The Spirit himself bears witness… that we are children of God.”

Calling on God / Prayer
• Romans 10:13
“For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
• 1 John 5:14
“And this is the confidence that we have toward Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.”

Doing the Work of God
• John 6:29
“Jesus answered, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.’”

Love One Another
• John 13:34–35
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you…”
• 1 John 4:7
“Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God…”

 

[Episkopos]

Hello Shepherd,

I don’t walk any higher or lower than anyone else. I’m on the same ground, the same elevation, as every other soul beside me. The only thing I truly know is this: “Abide in Jesus, for without Him you can do nothing.”

If that means anything at all, it means that everything good—everything righteous—is not something we produce from ourselves. No. It’s Him. It’s Christ who helps us in our failures, who brings forth the fruit of righteousness when we allow His Spirit to move through us.

Peace, mercy, forgiveness, encouragement—these are not self-made. They are born from the Spirit of Christ.
Heavenly wisdom comes down from Yahavah. It lives within us, close to the heart—even when that heart is broken.

God is near to those He has adopted as His children.
Believers in Jesus are given the ability to become sons and daughters of God, maturing in faith as they live, learn, eat, drink, and abide in Yeshua.

We ask God to help us—in our hearts and minds—as we walk this life.
We call out to the Father, Yahavah, the Lord God, not to retaliate against those who’ve wronged us, but to be led by His Spirit.

To do what is good for God. To do the work of God, which is to believe in the Son whom Yahavah has sent, and to love one another, just as He commanded.

The beautiful truth is this: it’s never me who does these good things. Not really.

The goodness, the righteousness, the truth—it all comes from the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God, who dwells within our hearts and souls. That’s how we know our prayers are heard. That’s how we know God is not far away.
This walk? It’s not easy. It’s hard. But it’s holy.

There is a popular thought out there that says...anything I do that's good is not me, it's Jesus; and anything I do bad is me. I suppose this is meant to give God some kind of credit.

But there are not two separate trees for good and for evil. No, there is one tree of the knowledge of good and evil that empowers us to do both. The other tree is the tree of life.....the tree of eternal life. Most think of that tree in the religious sense of an afterlife. Just like the pagans did. But we do both good and evil in and from our flesh. The perfection is in Christ by eating of the tree of life. Jesus said "eat My body and drink My blood." To be empowered by Christ goes a lot further than being able to forgive or do good works. These are things as part of the package contained in the flesh.....along with the evils we do.

 

[MatthewG]

There is a popular thought out there that says...anything I do that's good is not me, it's Jesus; and anything I do bad is me. I suppose this is meant to give God some kind of credit.

But there are not two separate trees for good and for evil. No, there is one tree of the knowledge of good and evil that empowers us to do both. The other tree is the tree of life.....the tree of eternal life. Most think of that tree in the religious sense of an afterlife. Just like the pagans did. But we do both good and evil in our flesh. The perfection is in Christ by eating of the tree of life. Jesus said "eat My body and drink My blood." To be empowered by Christ goes a lot further than being able to forgive or do good works. These are things as part of the package contained in the flesh.....along with the evils we do.

I appreciate your passion for clarity and your desire to move beyond shallow theology.

You’re right—there’s more to Christ’s life in us than just labeling our actions “good” or “bad.” And I agree that the tree of life represents something far deeper than moral behavior—it’s about abiding in Christ, being sustained by Him, and living from His Spirit.

That said, I think the phrase “anything good I do is Jesus, anything bad is me”—while imperfect—often comes from a place of humility. It’s not meant to split us into two trees, but to acknowledge that our righteousness isn’t self-generated. It’s a way of saying, “I know I’m flawed, and I know anything truly good in me comes from Him.”

It’s not about denying personal responsibility—it’s about recognizing the source of transformation.
You mentioned that both good and evil come from the same tree—the tree of knowledge.

I think that’s a powerful insight. But I also believe that when we’re born again, we’re invited to leave that tree behind and eat from the tree of life—not just symbolically, but spiritually.

That doesn’t mean we’re perfect, but it does mean we’re being refined. Willingly. Daily.
So maybe the real question isn’t whether our good deeds are “us” or “Jesus”—but whether we’re living from the flesh or from the Spirit.

And if we’re abiding in Him, then even our forgiveness, our kindness, our endurance—they’re not just moral acts.
They’re fruit. And fruit doesn’t grow apart from the vine.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

They’ve stirred up some reflection in me, and I’m grateful for that.

 

[ProDeo]

I strongly suspect it isn't a one-size fits all formula. People so often want to make formulas out of the ways of God. But every soul is unique and has different needs, different strengths and weaknesses, different graces and callings, and different things to deal with and overcome, so the Lord leads each soul in a way that is unique to their particular situation. And everything is according to His will and wisdom and purpose, and even His timing, I believe.

Well said, Romans 14 in a nutshell

 

[ProDeo]

Yes, I fell from a very high place and it was devastating. I was in a daze for the first few years after that. I thought I'd blown it with God...in a permanent rejection. But over time I came to realize that I did great when the grace was raining...but the Lord wanted me to humble myself and be a dew seeker...seeking His touch in the early morning every day. DAVID was able to glean the dew every day...it's old school, but it works! So if there is no rain, there is still the dew. Righteousness is about DEW-ing. ;) I am at great peace now...the most peace I have ever known apart from being in the kingdom realm. :)


My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distill as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Deut 32:2


There are guests (the righteous) and there is the Bride (saints) but there is a third category...the devout, the Chasidim, who are like precious stones to God. The devout ones. That's where I see myself now. My heart has known the glorious path, and my mind has been renewed to understand things that are mysterious and that almost no one can relate to. But it is all for God's glory. I rejoice in the Lord in whatever capacity I am given.

Wow Epi, your post is mind blowing. I don't find it appropriate at the moment to respond on some of the things you said, maybe later, for now now let me just say that I am happy you found healing.

 

[MatthewG]

On the topic "The Gospel is founded in the Old Testament." I would yes, good news was heard but also wrath to was heard about to come upon that nation in that day.

That phrase—“The Gospel is in the Torah”—is a powerful way of saying that the message of salvation through Christ doesn’t begin in Matthew, but in Genesis. It’s about seeing the whole Bible as one unified story, not two disconnected halves.
Here’s what that means in depth:

The Torah: Foundation of the Gospel
The Torah refers to the first five books of the Bible—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. These books lay the groundwork for:
• Creation and Fall: Genesis tells of God's perfect creation and humanity’s fall into sin (Genesis 3).
• First Promise of Redemption: Genesis 3:15 is often called the Protoevangelium—“the first gospel.” It speaks of a future offspring who will crush the serpent’s head. Christians see this as a foreshadowing of Jesus.
• Covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob: God promises to bless all nations through Abraham’s descendants (Genesis 12), pointing forward to Christ as the ultimate fulfillment.
• Sacrificial System: The laws in Leviticus and elsewhere show the seriousness of sin and the need for atonement—setting the stage for Jesus as the final sacrifice.

Gospel Roots in Jewish Hope
The word “gospel” means “good news.” In ancient times, it referred to a victory announcement—like when a king won a battle and peace was secured. In the Hebrew Scriptures, this “good news” is the hope of God’s kingdom, justice, and restoration. The prophets and Torah writers were already pointing toward that hope.
So when Jesus comes preaching the gospel, He’s not starting something new—He’s fulfilling what was already promised.

Why It Matters
Understanding that the gospel is in the Torah helps us see:
• The consistency of God’s plan from beginning to end.
• That Jesus didn’t replace the Old Testament—He completed it.
• That the gospel is deeply Jewish in origin, rooted in covenant, promise, and prophecy.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes, I fell from a very high place and it was devastating. I was in a daze for the first few years after that. I thought I'd blown it with God...in a permanent rejection. But over time I came to realize that I did great when the grace was raining...but the Lord wanted me to humble myself and be a dew seeker...seeking His touch in the early morning every day. DAVID was able to glean the dew every day...it's old school, but it works! So if there is no rain, there is still the dew. Righteousness is about DEW-ing. ;) I am at great peace now...the most peace I have ever known apart from being in the kingdom realm. :)


My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distill as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Deut 32:2


There are guests (the righteous) and there is the Bride (saints) but there is a third category...the devout, the Chasidim, who are like precious stones to God. The devout ones. That's where I see myself now. My heart has known the glorious path, and my mind has been renewed to understand things that are mysterious and that almost no one can relate to. But it is all for God's glory. I rejoice in the Lord in whatever capacity I am given.

Good that you have found grace for yourself Epi. I just wonder you don't extend that same grace to your fellow sojourners in the Lord.

 

[Lizbeth]

There is a popular thought out there that says...anything I do that's good is not me, it's Jesus; and anything I do bad is me. I suppose this is meant to give God some kind of credit.

But there are not two separate trees for good and for evil. No, there is one tree of the knowledge of good and evil that empowers us to do both. The other tree is the tree of life.....the tree of eternal life. Most think of that tree in the religious sense of an afterlife. Just like the pagans did. But we do both good and evil in and from our flesh. The perfection is in Christ by eating of the tree of life. Jesus said "eat My body and drink My blood." To be empowered by Christ goes a lot further than being able to forgive or do good works. These are things as part of the package contained in the flesh.....along with the evils we do.

We've already become branches of the Tree of Life and partakers of its Root, through faith in Christ that is not of our own (which is distinct from the belief of religious Jews and Catholics and cultural protestants whose belief is of their own). But we are still works in progress and having to contend with the flesh though, as you are. And if we are blessed to be given tastes of "walking above" the flesh now and then, we are grateful for it, knowing we're tasting the powers of the world to come and desire for more of it. I believe the Lord encourages us onward and upward by such experiences and encounters and builds up our faith/trust in Him.

 

[Episkopos]

Good that you have found grace for yourself Epi. I just wonder you don't extend that same grace to your fellow sojourners in the Lord.

Take your eyes off yourself and onto God.

I think people look for the easy resolution without all the tension and the correct weight of warning. You don't arrive at peace from God with the ego intact. My testimony revolves around the value of a full surrender to God...not a religious encouragement. It's about breaking in order to become whole. I am not the one who makes people whole...God does that...in a walk in holiness above all sin. God gives grace to the humble and He helps those who fear Him. These are not traits normally associated with the modern take on church.

I think you would prefer..."it is with much joy that we enter the kingdom"....as opposed to the negative (to your ears) sounding "it is with much tribulation that we enter the kingdom". No one these days wants to pay the price of actual discipleship.

God is near the broken-hearted not with those who enter into religious hyperbole, figurative interpretations, and a false philosophy of "positional theology" in order to appease their sense of self-worth. A servant of God considers himself a worm. Otherwise the lofty ideas of an honourific salvation are just pretensions that stand against the truth.

Either one must enter in by the narrow door...where one encounters the living God where He dwells or else follow vain philosophies and deceit according to the religious bent in the natural man, who has no idea of eternal things.

I am only doing what is apostolic in nature...and the reactions of people today are the same as always...I warn people, and these take it as a personal insult...as if the kingdom of God was a personality boost.

My ministry is exactly as described here...for those who have ears to hear...

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Col. 1:27-28

Seems to me you want the glory all right, but disdain the warning that brings you there. I call that unreality...but how are you supposed to weigh that if you don't know it?

The NT is about PERFECTION in Christ...not a self-improvement over time ...that is OT.

Modern believers put themselves out of the reach of every warning in the bible. A fool's paradise.

 

[marks]

View attachment 69814

The middle voice is reflexive, we perform the action on ourselves. Passive voice, the action is performed upon us. Active voice, we perform the actions.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

We've already become branches of the Tree of Life and partakers of its Root, through faith in Christ that is not of our own (which is distinct from the belief of religious Jews and Catholics and cultural protestants whose belief is of their own). But we are still works in progress and having to contend with the flesh though, as you are. And if we are blessed to be given tastes of "walking above" the flesh now and then, we are grateful for it, knowing we're tasting the powers of the world to come and desire for more of it. I believe the Lord encourages us onward and upward by such experiences and encounters and builds up our faith/trust in Him.

The now and then experiences are still OT. The NT provides a steady walk in the Spirit by the keeping power of God...that lasts indefinitely. The difference between dew and rain.

 

[marks]

Everything I speak of is meant to be understood very simply by faith. People will want proof...syntax, proof-texting...etc...but the point is missed.

The point is, as you well know, I'm sure, that we compare what you speak with the Bible's teachings, which are clear, and do not portray what you claim.

And in your defense, you tell us to ignore the specifics of the Bible's teachings. So that won't fly.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

The point is, as you well know, I'm sure, that we compare what you speak with the Bible's teachings, which are clear, and do not portray what you claim.

And in your defense, you tell us to ignore the specifics of the Bible's teachings. So that won't fly.

Much love!

Actually we need to get more specific. I teach what the man-made teachings avoid like the plague. But if we do not heed the warnings of the bible then we have no share in the glory testified to in the bible.

 

[marks]

Actually we need to get more specific.

Everything I speak of is meant to be understood very simply by faith. People will want proof...syntax, proof-texting...etc...but the point is missed.

The point here is that we have to compare what we think is real to what the Bible says is real. Your claim is that if we don't agree with you it means we don't understand the Bible. My reply is that I don't agree with you because I do understand the Bible.

Yet whenever we engage over specific Bible texts you will not stay with the discussion. So there is a real problem here.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

The point here is that we have to compare what we think is real to what the Bible says is real. Your claim is that if we don't agree with you it means we don't understand the Bible. My reply is that I don't agree with you because I do understand the Bible.

You are simply claiming what you say I'm claiming. And I'm saying that you don't know the depth of that which you speak.

Yet whenever we engage over specific Bible texts you will not stay with the discussion. So there is a real problem here.

Much love!

I find you only pipe up to attack me and my message...when you smell blood in the water. So maybe a lot of your cohorts are no longer here to drag the truth through the mud.

But I speak the truth. Many will be very disappointed when the truth comes out.

if you want to point out a specific doctrine, be sure to find comparisons in BOTH Testaments. Otherwise a clanging bell is all that is heard...like any JW that knows a few verses that seem to point in one way, while ignoring twice as many that refute the claim. The bible is meant to understand by the Spirit AND by comparison with both the bible AND by the power experienced in one's life.

 

[Lizbeth]

Take your eyes off yourself and onto God.

Agree.

I think people look for the easy resolution without all the tension and the correct weight of warning. You don't arrive at peace from God with the ego intact. My testimony revolves around the value of a full surrender to God...not a religious encouragement. It's about breaking in order to become whole. I am not the one who makes people whole...God does that...in a walk in holiness above all sin. God gives grace to the humble and He helps those who fear Him. These are not traits normally associated with the modern take on church.

Agree. Except that having grace for others is not the same thing as religious encouragement.

I think you would prefer..."it is with much joy that we enter the kingdom"....as opposed to the negative (to your ears) sounding "it is with much tribulation that we enter the kingdom". No one these days wants to pay the price of actual discipleship.

Who wouldn't prefer joy? But it is not our will, but His be done. You've taken words out of my own mouth on the rest.

God is near the broken-hearted not with those who enter into religious hyperbole, figurative interpretations, and a false philosophy of "positional theology" in order to appease their sense of self-worth. A servant of God considers himself a worm. Otherwise the lofty ideas of an honourific salvation are just pretensions that stand against the truth.

This is too harsh and wrong-headed.

Either one must enter in by the narrow door...where one encounters the living God where He dwells or else follow vain philosophies and deceit according to the religious bent in the natural man, who has no idea of eternal things.

Agree. In principle at least.

I am only doing what is apostolic in nature...and the reactions of people today are the same as always...I warn people, and these take it as a personal insult...as if the kingdom of God was a personality boost.

Well an insult is an insult. And warning is warning (as long as it's coming from the right place). Not that hard to discern between the two.

My ministry is exactly as described here...for those who have ears to hear...

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Col. 1:27-28

There are so many who want to pound and smite people with the word of God but without actually ministering it to them, unfortunately.

Seems to me you want the glory all right, but disdain the warning that brings you there. I call that unreality...but how are you supposed to weigh that if you don't know it?

I do not and never have disdained the warnings of scripture. But I can't receive it when it is skewed and coming from a wrong place.

 

[Lizbeth]

This requires a full surrender to God with a WHOLE HEART. As in...you will find Me when you seek Me with all your heart. Coming from a rich country it's very hard for us to need God to that degree. Jesus said that it was very hard (or impossible) for a rich man to enter into the kingdom.

Amen, agree with that. And it is sometimes through a tribulation that squeezes and pressures us through the birth canal (narrow way) as it were.

But there is always being a guest...remaining humble and God-fearing. I would say almost all modern believers have a shot at being a guest IF we don't elevate ourselves in presumption and pride.

Not sure this is a right way to view the wedding "guests". I had thought it was just a way to represent a many membered Bride without making it seem like polygamy. Anyone who has eternal life is part of the Bride (church - New Jerusalem).

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

312 subscribers on your utuber channel in3 years.... looks like using this forum to advertise your channel is going pretty slow.

Might be good to branch out to some of the many other forums out there to get more coverage

 

[Lizbeth]

The now and then experiences are still OT. The NT provides a steady walk in the Spirit by the keeping power of God...that lasts indefinitely. The difference between dew and rain.

Potentially, I agree.