Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

[Scott Downey]

It began in the first century AD as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God began to be proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth, just as Christ warned His disciples they too would experience.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Looking at the history of the world from the first century, the desolations and destructions, and all the suffering, it just grew and grew as more and more people were born and men learned new ways of killing, and waging wars. History shows this continually worsening state of this world. The sheer numbers is overwhelming, including the natural world is trying to kill you.

 

[Truth7t7]

It began in the first century AD

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If Matthew 24:21 began in the 1st century, just how did it start and when does it end?

 

[rwb]

If Matthew 24:21 began in the 1st century, just how did it start and when does it end?

Even before the cross Christ sent out His disciples to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God through His name.

Luke 10:1 (KJV) After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Luke 10:9 (KJV) And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Luke 10:17 (KJV) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Christ commissioned the first century disciples as well as every disciple to come after them: Mark 16:15 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Christ spoke these words to His disciples with Him, and every new disciple that should come after them. This is speaking of Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:6-9 (KJV) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Matthew 24:10-13 (KJV) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:25 (KJV) Behold, I have told you before.

Great tribulation against the Gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed unto all the earth shall continue until the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete and Christ comes again.

 

[Scott Downey]

Relief from trial and tribulation for the church fully happens with the return of Christ.
This is for us a salvation from the evil age we find ourselves in today
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hebrews 9

Greatness of Christ’s Sacrifice​

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be [j]purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Peter 1

Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims​

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

A Heavenly Inheritance​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been [c]grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not [d]seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to [e]us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

Living Before God Our Father​

13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your [f]stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with [g]corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was [h]manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

The Enduring Word​

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth [i]through the Spirit in [j]sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of [k]corruptible seed but [l]incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides [m]forever, 24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all [n]the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the [o]word of the Lord endures forever.”
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2 Thess 1
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

You are a modernist, a Scofield disciple then? That is where dispensationalism originated.
Is that what you believe?

Scofield/Dispensationalism/Baptists/pre-trib rapture all reject the TRUTH of Matthew ch24

Just as you reject the TRUTH of Zechariah ch14 and Revelation ch20

 

[Scott Downey]

Scofield/Dispensationalism/Baptists/pre-trib rapture all reject the TRUTH of Matthew ch24

Just as you reject the TRUTH of Zechariah ch14 and Revelation ch20

I just mostly reject your truth of those chapters.

Your doctrine is mostly Scofield, here I asked Copilot

how does Scofield explain Zechariah 14

C.I. Scofield interprets Zechariah 14 as a prophetic vision of the climactic events surrounding the Second Coming of Christ and the establishment of His earthly kingdom. Here's a breakdown of his key insights:

The Day of the Lord and Global Conflict​

• Scofield sees Zechariah 14:1–3 as describing a future time when all nations will gather against Jerusalem, leading to devastation and captivity.
• He connects this to the Gentile invasion under the Beast (referencing Daniel 7:8 and Revelation 19:20).

The Mount of Olives and Earthquake​

• In verse 4, the Lord stands on the Mount of Olives, which splits in two. Scofield attributes this dramatic event to a massive earthquake, supported by Isaiah 29:6 and Revelation 16:19.
• He emphasizes that none of these events occurred during Christ’s first coming, suggesting they are reserved for His second advent.

Christ’s Reign Over the Earth​

• Verse 9 declares the Lord will be King over all the earth. Scofield sees this as the fulfillment of the Lord’s Prayer (“Thy kingdom come,” Matthew 6:10) and ties it to prophecies in Daniel 2:44–45 and 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Living Waters and Restoration​

• Verse 8 speaks of living waters flowing from Jerusalem, symbolizing spiritual renewal and possibly literal transformation of the land.
• Scofield views this as part of the millennial blessings that accompany Christ’s reign.

You can explore the full commentary on Bible Hub.
If you’re curious how this compares to other interpretations—like amillennial or preterist views—I’d be happy to unpack those too.

Edit in a page

yes

Great! Let's explore how other theological perspectives interpret Zechariah 14, especially in contrast to Scofield’s dispensational premillennial view.

️ Amillennial Interpretation​

Amillennialists believe that the "millennium" is symbolic of the current church age, not a literal 1,000-year reign.

• Symbolic Language: Zechariah 14 is seen as apocalyptic and metaphorical, not a literal geopolitical event.
• The Day of the Lord: Represents God's final judgment and the consummation of history, not a specific future battle.
• Living Waters (v.8) and the Lord as King (v.9): Interpreted spiritually—Christ already reigns through His Church, and the "living waters" symbolize the Gospel flowing to all nations.
• Jerusalem: Often understood as the heavenly Jerusalem or the Church, not the physical city.

Preterist Interpretation​

Preterists believe most biblical prophecies were fulfilled in the first century, especially around the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

• Zechariah 14 is viewed as a prophecy of that destruction and the transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant.
• Mount of Olives splitting: May be symbolic of divine intervention and upheaval during that period.
• Living waters: Seen as the spread of Christianity after the fall of Jerusalem.
• Universal kingship (v.9): Fulfilled in Christ’s resurrection and ascension—He reigns now.

Postmillennial Interpretation​

Postmillennialists believe Christ will return after a golden age of Gospel success and global peace.

• Zechariah 14 is partly fulfilled and partly future.
• The nations coming to Jerusalem (v.16): Seen as a future time when the world embraces Christian truth.
• The Lord reigning as King: A gradual realization through the Church’s influence, culminating in Christ’s return.

 

[Scott Downey]

ChatGPT
how does Scofield explain Zechariah 14

ChatGPT said:​

C. I. Scofield, in his Scofield Reference Bible (1909 and later editions), reads Zechariah 14 through a dispensational, premillennial lens, and ties it directly to the Second Coming of Christ and the establishment of the millennial kingdom. Here’s a summary of how he explains the chapter:

---

Scofield’s Main Points on Zechariah 14​

1. The “Day of the LORD” (v. 1–2)
   • Scofield sees this as a future, climactic time of judgment when the nations gather against Jerusalem.
   • He identifies it with the events of the Great Tribulation, leading to the Battle of Armageddon.
2. The LORD’s Personal Intervention (v. 3–5)
   • Scofield links this to the Second Advent of Christ.
   • He interprets the Mount of Olives splitting as a literal geological event when Christ’s feet touch down.
   • The escape route formed is seen as a miraculous provision for the Jewish remnant.
3. Cosmic Changes (v. 6–7)
   • The unusual light and darkness are taken as literal signs accompanying the Second Coming.
   • Scofield ties this to other prophetic passages (Joel 2, Matthew 24, Revelation 6).
4. Living Waters (v. 8)
   • He interprets the river flowing out of Jerusalem literally, connected to Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22.
   • This is part of the millennial transformation of the earth.
5. Universal Reign of the King (v. 9)
   • Scofield says this marks the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom, when Christ reigns as King over all the earth.
   • This fulfills messianic promises not yet realized in Israel’s history.
6. Judgments on Nations (v. 12–15)
   • The plague described is taken literally—a supernatural judgment on those who fight against Jerusalem.
   • Scofield sees this as Armageddon imagery, consistent with Revelation 19.
7. Millennial Worship (v. 16–21)
   • Survivors of the nations will go up annually to Jerusalem to worship the King, especially at the Feast of Tabernacles.
   • Scofield stresses this is literal, physical worship in a restored temple system, part of Israel’s restored national destiny.
   • Even the most ordinary things (“HOLINESS TO THE LORD” inscribed on pots, bells, etc.) will be consecrated.

---

In Short​

Scofield explains Zechariah 14 as:

• Not symbolic of the church age, but literal prophecy still awaiting fulfillment.
• A description of Christ’s return, the judgment of the nations, and the beginning of the Millennium when Jesus rules from Jerusalem and Israel is restored.
• He uses this chapter as a key Old Testament proof for premillennialism.

---

Do you want me to also show you how Scofield’s view differs from older, non-dispensational interpretations (like Augustine or Calvin), so you can see where he “changes” the meaning?

You said:​

yes

ChatGPT said:​

Good — that’s where the real contrast shows. Scofield’s dispensational reading of Zechariah 14 was a big departure from earlier mainstream Christian interpretation. Let me lay it out side-by-side so you can see how he “changed” the meaning:

---

1. The Day of the LORD (Zech. 14:1–2)​

• Older (Augustine, Calvin, Reformers):
  Usually interpreted as symbolic of the Church age — the “attack” on Jerusalem representing persecution of God’s people, culminating in the final judgment. Jerusalem stood for the church, not national Israel.
• Scofield:
  Saw this as a literal, future siege of Jerusalem at the end of the Tribulation. He insists the prophecy is about national Israel, not the church.

---

2. The LORD’s Return to the Mount of Olives (v. 4–5)​

• Older:
  Often read spiritually or allegorically — Christ “standing on the Mount of Olives” meant God’s presence and deliverance for the church, not a geographical event.
• Scofield:
  Reads it literally — Christ will physically return to the Mount of Olives at His Second Coming. The mountain splitting is an actual geological event.

---

3. Cosmic Signs and Living Waters (v. 6–8)​

• Older:
  The imagery of strange light and flowing water was interpreted figuratively — pointing to the eternal blessings of Christ and the Gospel spreading through the world.
• Scofield:
  Takes both literally — cosmic disturbances as real events at the end times, and a literal river flowing out of Jerusalem during the Millennium.

---

4. The LORD King Over All the Earth (v. 9)​

• Older:
  Saw this fulfilled spiritually in Christ’s reign now — the kingdom was understood as present through the church and Christ’s rule in hearts.
• Scofield:
  Future, literal Millennial Kingdom on earth, with Jesus physically ruling from Jerusalem.

---

5. Judgment on the Nations (v. 12–15)​

• Older:
  Interpreted as the final judgment or symbolic of God defeating spiritual enemies.
• Scofield:
  Literal plague on armies gathered against Jerusalem — tied directly to Armageddon and Revelation 19.

---

6. Feast of Tabernacles and Millennial Worship (v. 16–21)​

• Older:
  Saw this as symbolic language — nations worshiping Christ = Gentiles coming to faith, the church’s worldwide worship, not a literal pilgrimage.
• Scofield:
  Literal annual observance of the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem, by all surviving nations during the Millennium. Even cooking pots become consecrated, showing a transformed, holy society.

---

In Summary​

• Traditional church interpretation (Augustine, Calvin, Reformers):
  • Zechariah 14 is apocalyptic, symbolic prophecy.
  • Fulfilled in Christ’s first coming, the Gospel age, and the final judgment.
  • “Jerusalem” = the church (spiritual Israel).
• Scofield (dispensationalism):
  • Zechariah 14 is literal, future history.
  • Fulfilled at the Second Coming and Millennial Kingdom.
  • “Jerusalem” = national Israel restored.

 

[Scott Downey]

3. Where Scofield May Be in Error​

But here’s where Scofield goes further than the plain text:

1. Importing his system (Dispensationalism)
   • Scofield divides history into rigid “dispensations” and insists this prophecy must fit into a future 7-year tribulation and 1,000-year millennium.
   • But Zechariah never says “a 7-year tribulation” or “a 1,000-year kingdom.” Those details come from how Scofield stitches together Daniel and Revelation, not from Zechariah 14 itself.
2. Forcing a rebuilt temple and Jewish national order
   • Zechariah 14 does not say “the temple will be rebuilt” or that Israel’s old sacrifices return.
   • Scofield assumes this, because dispensationalism requires Israel restored to Mosaic worship in the Millennium. That’s adding to the text.
3. Over-literalizing what may be prophetic imagery
   • Apocalyptic prophecy often uses vivid, cosmic language (sun darkened, mountains moving) that isn’t always literal geology or astronomy.
   • Scofield insists it all must be literal, which may ignore prophetic style.
4. Missing the Christ-centered fulfillment
   • Zechariah 14 calls the LORD Himself King over all the earth (v. 9).
   • In the New Testament, Christ is already exalted as “King of kings” (Rev. 17:14, Matt. 28:18).
   • A plain reading could suggest Zechariah 14 points directly to the Second Coming and final judgment, not a separate earthly “millennium” before eternity.

 

[Scott Downey]

What does Christ do when He comes again, according to the scriptures alone, and not any interpretive theology of men

ChatGPT said:​

That’s an excellent and important distinction. If we set aside systems of theology (dispensationalism, amillennialism, etc.) and look only at what the Bible itself directly says Christ does when He comes again, we can collect the passages into a clear list.
Here’s what Scripture alone records:

---

1. He Appears Visibly and Gloriously​

• “This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11)
• “They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matt. 24:30)
• “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him.” (Rev. 1:7)

---

2. He Raises the Dead​

• “All who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out.” (John 5:28–29)
• “The dead in Christ will rise first.” (1 Thess. 4:16)
• “There will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.” (Acts 24:15)

---

3. He Gathers His People​

• “He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds.” (Matt. 24:31)
• “We who are alive… will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” (1 Thess. 4:17)

---

4. He Judges All Nations and Individuals​

• “He comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples in His faithfulness.” (Ps. 96:13)
• “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.” (2 Cor. 5:10)
• “When the Son of Man comes in His glory… He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” (Matt. 25:31–32)
• “The dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.” (Rev. 20:12)

---

5. He Destroys the Wicked and the Powers of Evil​

• “The lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of His mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of His coming.” (2 Thess. 2:8)
• “Fire came down from heaven and consumed them… and the devil… was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Rev. 20:9–10)

---

6. He Makes All Things New​

• “The heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved.” (2 Pet. 3:10)
• “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.” (Rev. 21:1)
• “He who was seated on the throne said, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’” (Rev. 21:5)

---

7. He Dwells With His People Forever​

• “So we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thess. 4:17)
• “The dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people.” (Rev. 21:3)
• “They will see His face.” (Rev. 22:4)

---

Plain Biblical Summary​

When Christ comes again, Scripture itself says He will:

1. Appear visibly, gloriously, and universally.
2. Raise the dead (righteous and wicked).
3. Gather His people to Himself.
4. Judge every person and nation.
5. Destroy evil, the wicked, and Satan.
6. Renew heaven and earth.
7. Dwell forever with His redeemed.

That is the direct testimony of Scripture — without importing theological systems, timelines, or speculative frameworks.

 

[Scott Downey]

Do you want me to also make a timeline straight from the verses themselves (step by step, in order of events as Scripture says them), so it’s crystal clear?

You said:​

sure

ChatGPT said:​

Alright — here’s a step-by-step timeline of what happens when Christ comes again, using only the words of Scripture (no outside system imposed).

---

Biblical Timeline of Christ’s Return​

1. Christ Appears in Glory​

• “The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.” (1 Thess. 4:16)
• “They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matt. 24:30)

---

2. The Dead Are Raised​

• “The dead in Christ will rise first.” (1 Thess. 4:16)
• “All who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out — those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28–29)

---

3. Believers Still Alive Are Changed​

• “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.” (1 Cor. 15:51–52)
• “Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” (1 Thess. 4:17)

---

4. Christ Gathers His People​

• “He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds.” (Matt. 24:31)
• “So we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thess. 4:17)

---

5. Judgment Takes Place​

• “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.” (2 Cor. 5:10)
• “When the Son of Man comes in His glory… He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” (Matt. 25:31–32)
• “The dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.” (Rev. 20:12)

---

6. The Wicked Are Destroyed​

• “The lawless one… the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of His mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of His coming.” (2 Thess. 2:8)
• “They marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints… but fire came down from heaven and consumed them.” (Rev. 20:9)

---

7. Satan Is Defeated Forever​

• “The devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur… and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Rev. 20:10)

---

8. Creation Is Transformed​

• “The heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved… But according to His promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.” (2 Pet. 3:10, 13)
• “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.” (Rev. 21:1)

---

9. God Dwells With His People​

• “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people.” (Rev. 21:3)
• “They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads… and they will reign forever and ever.” (Rev. 22:4–5)

---

Straight from the text:

• Christ appears.
• Dead raised.
• Living believers transformed.
• His people gathered.
• Judgment happens.
• Wicked destroyed.
• Satan cast out forever.
• He makes new heavens and new earth.
• God dwells with His people eternally.

 

[Scott Downey]

Do you want me to also show how this simple order conflicts with Scofield’s “two-stage” return idea (rapture first, then later Second Coming), since Scripture itself gives one continuous sequence?

You said:​

yes

ChatGPT said:​

Perfect — let’s compare Scripture’s straightforward sequence (what we just laid out) with Scofield’s two-stage Second Coming (rapture first, then a gap, then the return with judgment).

---

Scripture’s Order (Plain Reading)​

All happens in one continuous coming of Christ:

1. Christ appears in glory (Matt. 24:30; 1 Thess. 4:16).
2. Dead are raised (John 5:28–29; 1 Thess. 4:16).
3. Living believers are transformed (1 Cor. 15:51–52).
4. Saints are gathered (Matt. 24:31; 1 Thess. 4:17).
5. Final judgment occurs (Matt. 25:31–32; Rev. 20:12).
6. Wicked destroyed (2 Thess. 2:8).
7. Satan cast down (Rev. 20:10).
8. New heaven and earth (2 Pet. 3:10–13; Rev. 21:1).
9. God dwells with His people forever (Rev. 21:3).

The Bible never says these happen in two different comings.

---

Scofield’s Order (Dispensational Scheme)​

He breaks Christ’s coming into two phases:
Phase 1: The Rapture (secret, before tribulation)

• Christ comes for His saints.
• Believers are caught up, but the world supposedly doesn’t see Him.
• No judgment yet.
• Scofield ties this to 1 Thess. 4:16–17, but adds the word “secret,” which Scripture never says.

Gap: 7 Years of Tribulation

• Antichrist rules.
• Israel restored and tested.
• Armageddon builds.

Phase 2: The Revelation (public, after tribulation)

• Christ comes with His saints.
• Nations judged at Armageddon.
• Satan bound.
• Millennium (1,000-year earthly reign in Jerusalem).
• Only after that comes the final judgment and new creation.

---

Where Scofield Conflicts with Scripture​

1. Two comings vs. one coming
   • Scripture always speaks of one glorious appearing of Christ (Acts 1:11; Heb. 9:28).
   • Scofield splits it into two events separated by years, but no verse explicitly teaches this.
2. “Secret rapture” idea
   • Scripture says His coming is with a loud trumpet, a shout, visible glory, every eye will see Him (Matt. 24:30–31; Rev. 1:7).
   • Nothing “secret” about it.
3. Separate resurrections
   • Jesus said: “all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out” (John 5:28–29) — one resurrection, both just and unjust.
   • Scofield divides into multiple resurrections (righteous at rapture, wicked later).
4. Delay of judgment
   • Scripture shows judgment happens at His coming (Matt. 25:31–32; 2 Thess. 1:7–10).
   • Scofield pushes final judgment off until long after the rapture.

---

Bottom line:
The plain biblical order is a single, public, final return of Christ bringing resurrection, judgment, and new creation. Scofield’s scheme adds a hidden stage and a delay, which Scripture itself never states.

 

[Scott Downey]

How does 2 Thessalonians 1 fit into the second coming

ChatGPT said:​

Excellent question — 2 Thessalonians 1 is one of the clearest passages about the Second Coming, and it directly answers how things unfold. Let’s walk through it carefully, verse by verse, and see how it fits.

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2 Thessalonians 1:6–10 (key section)​

*“It is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God… These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, *when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe.”

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What Happens at Christ’s Coming According to This Passage​

1. Christ is revealed from heaven (v. 7)
   • Not secretly, not in stages — but a revelation (“apokalypsis”), open and glorious.
2. He comes with His angels (v. 7)
   • Same language as Matthew 24:30–31 (“the Son of Man comes… with His angels and with a loud trumpet”).
3. He brings judgment in flaming fire (v. 8)
   • The wicked are punished immediately, not postponed.
   • This matches Rev. 19:11–21 and Matt. 25:31–32.
4. He gives relief to His people (v. 7)
   • Notice: believers get “rest” at the same time the wicked get “tribulation.”
   • No gap, no two stages — both blessings and judgments happen when He comes.
5. The punishment is eternal destruction (v. 9)
   • Not temporary discipline, but final judgment: “from the presence of the Lord.”
   • Matches Rev. 20:10–15.
6. He is glorified in His saints (v. 10)
   • At His coming, His people marvel and rejoice in Him.
   • This is the same event as 1 Thess. 4:17 — being with Him forever.

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How This Fits Into the Second Coming​

• One single event: His revelation, the judgment of the wicked, and the deliverance of the righteous all occur together.
• No secret phase: Paul says the church receives rest “when He is revealed in flaming fire” — that’s the opposite of a hidden rapture.
• Finality: Eternal destruction for the wicked, eternal glory for believers.

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So, 2 Thessalonians 1 lines up perfectly with the plain timeline we built:

• Christ comes visibly.
• He gives relief to His people.
• He destroys the wicked.
• He is glorified in His saints.
  All in one public, climactic coming — not split into two.

 

[Scott Downey]

How does Jesus compare His returning such as like the time of Noah and how do the apostolic church letters agree.

ChatGPT said:​

Great question — because Jesus’ own words about His return set the tone, and the apostles (Paul, Peter, etc.) echo Him without contradiction. Let’s carefully compare.

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Jesus’ Teaching: “As in the Days of Noah”​

Matthew 24:37–39​

“As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.”

Key points from Jesus:

• His coming will be sudden and unexpected for the world.
• People will be living life as usual — not expecting judgment.
• Just as the flood swept away the ungodly, His return will bring sudden destruction on unbelievers.
• At the same time, the righteous (like Noah and his family) are saved through it.

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How the Apostolic Letters Agree​

Paul (1 Thessalonians 5:2–3)​

“The day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, ‘There is peace and security,’ then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.”

• Matches Jesus’ “days of Noah” — life goes on normally, then sudden destruction falls.
• The wicked are caught unprepared; believers are watchful.

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Peter (2 Peter 3:3–7)​

“Scoffers will come… saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming?’… For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed… and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire…”

• Peter explicitly connects the flood of Noah with Christ’s return.
• The flood destroyed the ungodly world once; the final judgment will do so again — this time by fire, not water.
• Again, sudden destruction for the ungodly, but deliverance for the righteous.

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Hebrews (Hebrews 9:27–28)​

“…it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.”

• Christ’s second coming is not gradual, not secret, not multiple stages — it’s a single climactic appearing.
• For the righteous: salvation. For the wicked: judgment.

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Harmony of Teaching​

• Jesus: His coming is sudden, like Noah’s flood — ordinary life interrupted by catastrophic judgment, with separation of righteous and wicked.
• Paul: Same imagery — sudden destruction, thief in the night, no escape for the wicked, safety for the faithful.
• Peter: Explicitly ties the flood to the second coming — world reserved for fire.
• Hebrews & others: Emphasize a single, public appearing of Christ bringing salvation and judgment together.

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Takeaway​

The whole New Testament agrees:

• Christ’s coming will be public, sudden, inescapable.
• It brings judgment on the ungodly and deliverance for believers.
• Just as in Noah’s day, there is no “second chance” after it begins.

 

[Scott Downey]

Would you like me to also show how this same pattern (judgment + salvation together) runs through the Old Testament prophets (like Isaiah, Joel, Malachi), so you can see the full continuity?

You said:​

sure

ChatGPT said:​

Alright — let’s trace the pattern of Christ’s return (judgment + salvation at the same moment) in the Old Testament prophets. This is crucial, because Jesus and the apostles were echoing the same vision.

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1. Isaiah​

Isaiah 13:9–11​

“Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it… I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity.”

• Judgment: sinners destroyed, world punished.
• Salvation (elsewhere in Isaiah): “In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth” (Isaiah 19:24–25).

One day of the LORD brings wrath on the wicked and blessing for the faithful.

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2. Joel​

Joel 2:31–32​

“The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

• Judgment: cosmic signs, terror, destruction.
• Salvation: all who call on the LORD are delivered.

This is exactly what Peter quotes at Pentecost (Acts 2:20–21), tying it to the final coming.

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3. Malachi​

Malachi 4:1–2​

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble… But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings.”

• Judgment: wicked burned like stubble.
• Salvation: healing and joy for the righteous.

One day, two radically different outcomes.

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4. Zephaniah​

Zephaniah 1:14–15; 3:17​

“The great day of the LORD is near… a day of wrath is that day, a day of distress and anguish, a day of ruin and devastation.”
“The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness.”

• Judgment: terror and ruin for the wicked.
• Salvation: God rejoicing over His people in safety.

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5. Daniel​

Daniel 12:2​

“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

• Judgment and salvation happen at the same resurrection.
• Same as John 5:28–29 — both righteous and wicked raised together.

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The Prophetic Pattern​

From Isaiah to Malachi:

• One Day of the LORD.
• Two simultaneous outcomes:
  • Wrath, destruction, and fire for the wicked.
  • Deliverance, healing, and eternal life for the righteous.

This is exactly what Jesus described (“as in the days of Noah”), Paul repeated (1 Thess. 5; 2 Thess. 1), Peter affirmed (2 Pet. 3), and Revelation depicts (Rev. 20–21).

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This also exposes Scofield’s error: the prophets never split God’s climactic day into two or three stages. They always present it as one decisive event.

 

[Scott Downey]

Would you like me to now tie this whole theme into Revelation 19–22, showing how John ties together the prophets, Jesus’ words, and the apostles’ teaching into one final picture?

You said:​

yes

ChatGPT said:​

Perfect. Let’s walk through Revelation 19–22 and see how it ties together the prophets, Jesus’ words, and the apostolic letters about Christ’s return.

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Revelation 19 — The Appearing of Christ​

• vv. 11–16: Heaven opens, and Christ comes riding a white horse, called Faithful and True, judging and making war.
• vv. 17–21: He strikes the nations, casts the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire, and slays the rest.

This matches 2 Thessalonians 1 (Jesus revealed in flaming fire) and the prophets’ Day of the LORD.
No secret or delayed judgment — the appearing is the judgment.

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Revelation 20 — The Judgment & Resurrection​

• vv. 4–6: The righteous reign with Christ.
• vv. 11–15: The great white throne judgment:
  • The dead, small and great, stand before God.
  • Books are opened; the dead are judged according to works.
  • Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.
  • Whoever’s name is not in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire.

This is exactly Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28–29: one resurrection, two outcomes.

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Revelation 21–22 — The New Creation​

• 21:1–4: A new heaven and new earth appear; the first heaven and earth pass away. God dwells with His people. No more death, tears, pain, or curse.
• 21:8: The wicked inherit the lake of fire.
• 22:12: Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming quickly, bringing My recompense with Me, to repay everyone for what he has done.”

Salvation and judgment come together when Christ returns.
This fulfills Isaiah 65–66 (new heavens and earth) and 2 Peter 3:10–13.

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How Revelation Confirms the Prophets, Jesus, and Apostles​

1. Prophets: Day of the LORD = one day of wrath + salvation.
2. Jesus: Like Noah/Lot — sudden, inescapable, one decisive event.
3. Paul & Peter: Destruction of the wicked + deliverance of believers at Christ’s appearing (2 Thess. 1, 1 Thess. 4–5, 2 Pet. 3).
4. Revelation: All threads tied together in one climactic return — no gaps, no two-stage comings.

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So, according to scripture alone, Christ’s coming is:

• Visible (Rev. 1:7, Matt. 24:30).
• Final (no more history after — new creation begins).
• Universal judgment + salvation (Rev. 20–21).
• In perfect harmony with the prophets (Isaiah, Joel, Malachi, Daniel).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why do you promote a doctrine (dispensational eschatology) that teaches God has TWO Covenants of Grace, one for ethnic Israel and the other for the Church?

Well I do not promote God has tow covenants of Grace. during teh church age Jew and Gentile are one body called the church. Once the rapture happens the church is gone and saints at the Lords return will be divided. Gentiles to populate th eworld and the Jews to live in Israel in accord with all teh eternal proomises God made to Israel.

This two covenant of grace heresy is a man made construct of covenant theologians to denigrate and falsely slander biblical dispensational theology.

 

[Scott Downey]

Can the full preterist POV of Christ's second coming fit into a timeline of 70AD, seeing all these scriptures mentioned.

ChatGPT said:​

This is a critical question. Let’s look carefully at whether the full preterist view — that Christ’s Second Coming and the final judgment happened around 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem — can fit with the scriptures we’ve discussed: Jesus’ teachings, apostolic letters, Old Testament prophecy, and Revelation.

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1. The Preterist Claim​

• Full preterism (sometimes called hyper-preterism) asserts that:
  • Christ returned spiritually or visibly in judgment in 70 AD.
  • The “Day of the Lord” and resurrection passages were fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation.
  • Cosmic language in prophecy is symbolic of historical events (e.g., sun darkened = political upheaval).

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2. Comparing Preterism with the Scriptures​

a) Jesus’ “Days of Noah” / Sudden Destruction​

• Matthew 24:37–39: Jesus compares His coming to Noah’s flood.
• Observation:
  • In Noah’s case, the flood destroyed the entire ungodly world, while Noah and his family were saved.
  • If applied to 70 AD: only Jerusalem and Judea were destroyed. Most of the world (Gentiles) survived.
  • So the analogy of global judgment does not match 70 AD.

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b) Paul’s Letters (1 Thess. 4–5, 2 Thess. 1)​

• 1 Thess. 4:16–17: Christ appears, dead raised, living believers transformed.
• 2 Thess. 1:7–10: Christ revealed in flaming fire, judgment on the wicked, relief to saints.
• Observation:
  • These passages describe resurrection of all the dead, universal judgment, eternal destruction of the wicked.
  • 70 AD only destroyed a city and temple; no universal resurrection occurred.

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c) Peter (2 Pet. 3)​

• Cosmic destruction by fire, heavens and earth dissolved, final judgment for the ungodly.
• Observation:
  • Peter describes a final, universal, cosmic event, not a localized siege.
  • 70 AD clearly does not fulfill these cosmic descriptions literally.

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d) Old Testament Prophets (Isaiah, Joel, Malachi, Zephaniah, Daniel)​

• All speak of the Day of the Lord bringing:
  • Universal judgment
  • Salvation for the faithful
  • Cosmic disturbances
• Observation:
  • The prophets consistently describe global consequences, not only Jerusalem.
  • Preterist reading reduces this to a local historical event, which Scripture itself does not say.

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e) Revelation 19–22​

• Christ comes: visible, with armies, strikes nations, casts Satan into lake of fire, resurrection, new heaven and earth.
• Observation:
  • The events are clearly eschatological and global, not confined to 70 AD Jerusalem.
  • Preterist reading interprets this symbolically, but that requires ignoring the literal details (resurrection, eternal judgment, cosmic renewal).

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3. Summary: Tension Between Full Preterism and Scripture​

Scripture	What it says	Can it fit 70 AD?
Matthew 24:37–39	Like Noah, sudden destruction, global	No — destruction was local
1 Thess 4–5 / 2 Thess 1	Dead raised, living transformed, universal judgment	No — resurrection never happened
2 Pet. 3	Heavens & earth dissolved	No — only temple destroyed
Prophets	Day of the Lord, salvation & judgment	Partially, but mostly global
Revelation 19–22	Christ comes visibly, destroys evil, establishes new creation	No — events are universal and eternal

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4. Key Problems with Fitting 70 AD​

1. Resurrection and judgment did not happen globally.
2. Cosmic signs (sun dark, moon blood, stars falling) were not literal.
3. New creation never began.
4. All believers were not caught up; some died later.

Full preterism works only if you reinterpret almost everything symbolically, which is exactly why it departs from a “plain reading” of Scripture.

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Conclusion​

• 70 AD cannot serve as a literal fulfillment of Christ’s Second Coming, resurrection, and final judgment.
• The literal, plain reading of Jesus, the apostles, the prophets, and Revelation points to a future, visible, cosmic, final event.
• Full preterism requires extensive symbolic reinterpretation that Scripture itself does not demand.

 

[Scott Downey]

Seeing that the premillennial POV has a 1000 year delay between the coming of Christ and the final judgment and two separate resurrections, can that fit into all the scriptures mentioned

ChatGPT said:​

Let’s examine that carefully. The classic premillennial view (as Scofield and many dispensationalists teach) says:

1. Christ returns physically after the Tribulation.
2. Resurrection #1: Righteous believers (the “first resurrection”) reign with Christ for 1,000 years (Millennium).
3. Satan released, final rebellion, then judgment.
4. Resurrection #2: The wicked dead are raised, face judgment, and are cast into the lake of fire.
5. New heaven and new earth follow.

We can compare this timeline to the scriptures we have been looking at.

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1. Matthew 24 / Jesus’ teaching​

• “As in the days of Noah… they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away” (Matt. 24:37–39)
  Observation:
• Jesus describes a sudden, global judgment — no delay, no separate resurrection.
• Premillennialism inserts a 1,000-year gap after the initial return, which does not appear in this text.

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2. 1 & 2 Thessalonians​

• “The dead in Christ will rise first… we who are alive will be caught up… Then we will always be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:16–17)
• “The Lord Jesus will be revealed in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who do not know God” (2 Thess. 1:7–8)
  Observation:
• Scripture depicts one event where believers are saved and the wicked judged.
• Premillennialism splits these into two resurrections and delayed judgment for the wicked, which Scripture does not describe.

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3. 2 Peter 3​

• Cosmic destruction by fire, heavens and earth dissolved, judgment of ungodly
  Observation:
• Text describes final, universal, one-time judgment, not a Millennium-gap scenario.

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4. Old Testament Prophets (Isaiah, Joel, Malachi, Zephaniah, Daniel)​

• All describe the Day of the Lord as one decisive event bringing both judgment and salvation.
• There is no precedent for a 1,000-year separation of judgment and resurrection.

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5. Revelation 19–22​

• Christ comes, defeats the wicked, casts Satan into the lake of fire, resurrection, judgment, new creation.
• Observation:
  • John presents one climactic return, not two stages separated by 1,000 years.
  • The resurrection of the wicked and the righteous happens in sequence at the same final event (Rev. 20:11–15).

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6. Key Tensions of Premillennial Delay​

Premillennial Claim	Scripture Evidence	Tension / Issue
1,000-year reign before final judgment	Rev. 20:1–6	The text describes Christ reigning with resurrected saints for 1,000 years, but judgment of the wicked occurs immediately afterward — no separate “final resurrection” described later.
First resurrection separate from final judgment	1 Thess. 4; Rev. 20	Scriptures describe believers and wicked being raised and judged in sequence at Christ’s coming; no gap implied.
Millennial earthly kingdom for Israel	Zechariah 14; Rev. 20	Scripture presents universal reign of Christ, not a delayed, Israel-centered kingdom.

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7. Plain Scriptural Pattern​

From all passages (Jesus, apostles, prophets, Revelation):

1. Christ appears visibly, gloriously.
2. Dead are raised (righteous and wicked).
3. Living believers transformed.
4. Judgment falls immediately on the ungodly.
5. Satan is cast out / defeated.
6. New heaven and new earth follow.

No 1,000-year gap or two-stage resurrection. Scripture shows one continuous climactic event.

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Conclusion​

• Premillennialism does not fit neatly with the plain reading of:
  • Matthew 24 (“sudden like Noah”),
  • 1–2 Thessalonians (single appearing and judgment),
  • 2 Peter 3 (final cosmic destruction),
  • OT prophets (Day of the Lord, simultaneous judgment and salvation),
  • Revelation 19–22 (one climactic return, resurrection, judgment, new creation).
• It adds extra stages and timelines that Scripture itself never mentions.

 

[David in NJ]

I just mostly reject your truth of those chapters.

Your doctrine is mostly Scofield, here I asked Copilot

how does Scofield explain Zechariah 14

C.I. Scofield interprets Zechariah 14 as a prophetic vision of the climactic events surrounding the Second Coming of Christ and the establishment of His earthly kingdom. Here's a breakdown of his key insights:

The Day of the Lord and Global Conflict​

• Scofield sees Zechariah 14:1–3 as describing a future time when all nations will gather against Jerusalem, leading to devastation and captivity.
• He connects this to the Gentile invasion under the Beast (referencing Daniel 7:8 and Revelation 19:20).

The Mount of Olives and Earthquake​

• In verse 4, the Lord stands on the Mount of Olives, which splits in two. Scofield attributes this dramatic event to a massive earthquake, supported by Isaiah 29:6 and Revelation 16:19.
• He emphasizes that none of these events occurred during Christ’s first coming, suggesting they are reserved for His second advent.

Christ’s Reign Over the Earth​

• Verse 9 declares the Lord will be King over all the earth. Scofield sees this as the fulfillment of the Lord’s Prayer (“Thy kingdom come,” Matthew 6:10) and ties it to prophecies in Daniel 2:44–45 and 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Living Waters and Restoration​

• Verse 8 speaks of living waters flowing from Jerusalem, symbolizing spiritual renewal and possibly literal transformation of the land.
• Scofield views this as part of the millennial blessings that accompany Christ’s reign.

You can explore the full commentary on Bible Hub.
If you’re curious how this compares to other interpretations—like amillennial or preterist views—I’d be happy to unpack those too.

Edit in a page

yes

Great! Let's explore how other theological perspectives interpret Zechariah 14, especially in contrast to Scofield’s dispensational premillennial view.

️ Amillennial Interpretation​

Amillennialists believe that the "millennium" is symbolic of the current church age, not a literal 1,000-year reign.

• Symbolic Language: Zechariah 14 is seen as apocalyptic and metaphorical, not a literal geopolitical event.
• The Day of the Lord: Represents God's final judgment and the consummation of history, not a specific future battle.
• Living Waters (v.8) and the Lord as King (v.9): Interpreted spiritually—Christ already reigns through His Church, and the "living waters" symbolize the Gospel flowing to all nations.
• Jerusalem: Often understood as the heavenly Jerusalem or the Church, not the physical city.

Preterist Interpretation​

Preterists believe most biblical prophecies were fulfilled in the first century, especially around the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

• Zechariah 14 is viewed as a prophecy of that destruction and the transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant.
• Mount of Olives splitting: May be symbolic of divine intervention and upheaval during that period.
• Living waters: Seen as the spread of Christianity after the fall of Jerusalem.
• Universal kingship (v.9): Fulfilled in Christ’s resurrection and ascension—He reigns now.

Postmillennial Interpretation​

Postmillennialists believe Christ will return after a golden age of Gospel success and global peace.

• Zechariah 14 is partly fulfilled and partly future.
• The nations coming to Jerusalem (v.16): Seen as a future time when the world embraces Christian truth.
• The Lord reigning as King: A gradual realization through the Church’s influence, culminating in Christ’s return.

I just mostly reject your truth of those chapters.

lol

 

[MonoBiblical]

Hebrews 13:9......(KJV) says that many are caught up in "doctrines of Devils"......
These are man made religious theories that pretend to be true.

Here are a few.

MaryCult
Calvinism
Christian Science
Islam
Preterism.

So, a simple way to realize that Preterism is a theological Baloney sandwich being fed to religious people who are looking for "something new" to believe in, today, and something else to believe in tomorrow.......is this.

You have the Apostle John.
He lived 30 yrs, after PRETERISM stated that Jesus came back and went back.
And in the 30 Yrs after this is claimed to have happened by lying Preterists........John never said a word about Jesus showing up again.
And John, and all the Apostles, waited for JESUS to come back, every day of their LIVES.
So, would Jesus come back and not tell John?.......or.....would John know about Jesus's 2nd coming and not write about it, at all?

A.) NO

The second coming was a rapture. Is John still on earth? I am serious.