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Hebrews 10:31
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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Is it okay to blame God for stuff that is his fault?
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Hebrews 10:31
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Glad to help!
Brakelite
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Charlie Kirk's death is a case in point. Why do evil things happen to good people? Why do evil people get rich? Why do evil people get away with murder? Why is there so much pain, suffering, death in a world that God presumably rules over? Right? These aren't easy to questions to answer, and there's no specific answer to each case... Such as Charlie's death.
But there are certain principles at play that allow us to be at peace concerning things, knowing God is in control and justice will not only be done, but will be seen to be done. Then the answers will be manifest and understood in each case. Like why is grandad in heaven and grandma, who he abused, didn't make it? We are going to have questions like this later. And God will have all the answers, in the meantime, there's a couple of things we need to appreciate.
First thing to note.
Remember the parable about the wheat and the tares? Place it in the context of creation as a whole. The servants came to their Master and asked, how is it that there is evil in the field along with the good? Didn't You create the world and everything in it and proclaim, "it is very good"? Remember His answer? In a world where even some Christians no longer believe in the devil when stuff goes wrong and they don't want to accept responsibility themselves, their only option is to place the blame on God... For everything.
Second thing to note.
In the beginning of the controversy, we are told of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. In symbols and type we are informed that the rebellion was a desire to receive the worship that belongs to God alone. It was a desire to take the throne. To run the government. (I think we are all mature enough thinkers and Christians here to know the scriptures that point to this). We are also informed that 1/3 of the angels were deceived into following Lucifer and taking his side. Obviously, this could not have been an armed insurrection. It was a war certainly, but much more like a political campaign. A war of words and ideas, just like any political campaign here where am aspiring leader denigrates the current administration, suggesting the old ideas of love and service are insufficient to rule beings who know already what they need, and don't need to be ruled out overruled by anyone. (A quick perusal of the antinomian threads will reveal that concept repeated ad nauseum). So the only way to promote such a campaign, which could not have taken overnight, but a long time, was to demean God's character. God is love.
Lucifer, aka Satan, therefore had to persuade the angels that God is not love, but selfish. This was his argument against Eve. "There's a tree you're not allowed to eat? Seriously? Wow, obviously God is holding back something that's for your good. I know! He doesn't want competition! He knows you also can be as God, having knowledge of everything... Etc etc etc".
This slander.. This traffic...KJV Ezekiel 28:5-6, 16
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God....
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Traffic, merchandise,
7404 הלָּכֻרְ rëkullah rek-ool-law’
pass part of 07402; n f; [BDB-940a] {See TWOT on 2165 @@ "2165a"}
AV-merchandise 2, traffick 2; 4
1) merchandise, traffic, trade
share the same root...
7400 ליכִרָ rakiyl raw-keel’
from 07402 a scandal-monger (as travelling about); n m; [BDB-940b] {See TWOT on 2165 @@ "2165b"}
AV-slander 2, talebearer 2, talebearer + 01980 1, carry tales 1; 6
1) slander, slanderer, tale bearer, informer
So of course God could have put down the rebellion in an instant. One flick of His divine thumb and Satan would cease to exist. But what of the ideas that Satan made so public? That God is a tyrant, and didn't have the best interests of His creation at heart? Those ideas would not only have persisted in the minds of the angels, even the loyal ones, but would have been confirmed. Satan was clever enough to know this. That he would have to be given the opportunity to prove his ideas, right or wrong. And that is what the last 6000 years have been all about.
The earth was a proving ground for Satan's philosophy. Could he run the earth better than God? Was he right about God's character and was his ways of governing an improvement? Only time and opportunity would tell. By the end of man's probation... The completion of the 6000 years since creation... The vindication of God's character... The vindication of God's style of government... And the vindication of His laws and statutes, would be complete. Satan's own character of course was revealed at the same time as God's... At Calvary. But as can be seen outside our front doors, not everyone is convinced. Not even in the church. But when Jesus comes in the glory of the angels, His own glory, and the glory of the Father, then, and only then, will every knee bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus is Lord and is worthy of our worship, adoration, and right to rule. So. That's my take on theodicy. Why there's evil. Why Satan was permitted to live. Why God has given His creation the free will to choose whom they will serve.
Now. I know you'll have questions lol.
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Hiddenthings
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That old chestnut!
Unlocking Ezekiel 28
This thread is a discussion (@Wick Stick) on Ezekiel 28 focusing in on the symbols and their interpretation. This passage is typically used to prove that Satan is a fallen angel although neither are mentioned in the chapter. Let's begin.
www.christianityboard.com
Brakelite
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You will never convince me there is not a supernatural spirit, along with numerous others,at work in this world. Not only are they referenced and addressed in scripture, by Jesus Himself, but throughout history many have experienced him in real life, both in league with him and as resistance. That includes today, in many areas of the world, testimonies from missionaries, local people, even random tourists witnessing of demonic powers led by Satan in opposition to the gospel. That includes me.That old chestnut!
Unlocking Ezekiel 28
This thread is a discussion (@Wick Stick) on Ezekiel 28 focusing in on the symbols and their interpretation. This passage is typically used to prove that Satan is a fallen angel although neither are mentioned in the chapter. Let's begin.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
If your ears are closed to the Word of God and you only accept a gospel mixed with mythology, then neither I, nor even Jesus himself could persuade you of the truth
I had to laugh at that Brakelite, the same line of reasoning could just as easily be applied to those blurry “UFO” photos or the Loch Ness Monster.
If you ever come to accept this reality, I’m sure you’ll look back and feel a bit embarrassed, wondering how you missed something so obvious.
Like what questions for instance??
I thought you wanted to discuss the problem of theodicy.
Instead you want to discuss why bad things happen to good people?
Looks like you have a good grasp on the why....
Brakelite
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Those issues I addressed are all linked to man's perception of the character of God. That is the issue at stake here. And it began in heaven with a war of words and slander and politicking over whether God was worthy of ruling the government of heaven. Lucifer thought he could do better and began an insurrection.That controversy continues today. Before Jesus returns, everyone must decide whom they will serve. Or in other words, who do they trust to lead them. Even the vast vast majority of Christians today don't believe what God says in His word, and by that unbelief have fabricated doctrines to compensate, and those doctrines malign God's character.Like what questions for instance??
I thought you wanted to discuss the problem of theodicy.
Instead you want to discuss why bad things happen to good people?
Looks like you have a good grasp on the why....
Good character is on the line in the last days. Is He a God of love? Really?? Or is He a God of vengeance and capricious arbitrary law making? When you observe Christians in this forum, which version of God are Christians representing? That is the God they believe in. Your response depends on the character of God you believe to be truth. Do you judge God amidst the chaos of this world, or do you trust Him implicitly in the expectation that all things will work together for good. And why?
Brakelite
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Hiddenthings
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The Scriptures you most need to heed are the very ones you ignore. And the passages that demand your greatest care in interpretation are the ones you overlook, replacing them with notions that falsely portray God’s realm as chaotic.
It's perplexing to watch Brakelite!
Angels are always obedient - Psalm 103:20; Hebrews 1:14; Matthew 6:10
Heaven is a place of order, not chaos - 1 Corinthians 14:33; Psalm 89:7; Nehemiah 9:6
The true adversary: the kingdoms of men - Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:23; Acts 4:26
Your doctrine, by contrast, introduces disruption into Heaven itself, contradicting everything Scripture reveals about God, His character, and His authority.
It is a peculiar belief, one entirely unsupported by Scripture. Every time I read attempts to explain it, I am struck by how much it resembles medieval ramblings, as if you have stepped straight out of the Dark Ages.
I'm sure you know what I mean.
Behold
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God is not in control of man's free will.
This is why there is evil in the world.
See, God made a decision to allow man to be "made in God's' Image"........so, that means to have the ability to have CHOICE and eternal life.
Man then Chose badly....they chose the Tree of knowledge, instead of the Tree of Life.
And with this Choice,.....that is their free will decision... = Adam allowed Sin to enter this world, into every person.
This is how evil entered this world....
God does not control the evil that people commit......but He does offer a way of Redemption through Faith in Christ.... so that a sinner can be restored to eternal spiritual relationship with God while they are alive, which then continues into eternity.... And from this, a person can become a New Creation, forgiven, born again, and find the power of God as their source so that they are able to live a life that is not designed any longer by sin or controlled by it.
If everyone on earth right now was born again, then the entire world of mankind would have the power to live free from the control of sin..
This will never happen, so, evil will continue on this Earth... until the Millennial Reign of Christ, and heretics till then, will continue to wrongly accuse (blaspheme) God by blaming God for the sin that people love to commit.
Brakelite
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@
A late edit.
I didn't know Christadelphians rejected Revelation, or viewed it as wholly metaphorical or allegorical.
I'm not here to argue with you. My name is brakelite. When I post it's to make you think. I will defend what I believe from scripture when I feel the need, and if I think it would make a difference. If you choose however to ignore reason and malign personal testimony, then there's nothing more to be said.
A late edit.
I didn't know Christadelphians rejected Revelation, or viewed it as wholly metaphorical or allegorical.
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"Is it okay to blame God for stuff that is his fault?"
Sure, if you want to burn in Hell, FOREVER!
Sure, if you want to burn in Hell, FOREVER!
Brakelite
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@GodsGrace
Sadly, God's people more often than not have not represented Him well. Violence, compulsion and force, and threats of vengeance, even death, has characterised the church for millennia. Through union with the state powers, the church has inducted much suffering to those who sought a different path than the official line. It mattered not what line of Christianity was in charge, the result was very similar. Even the reformation came with its own problems, the truths discovered and taught such as Sola Scriptura, Sola Christus, Sola Fide, and Sola Gracia, were bound up in church/state conformity, being a carry over from mediaeval tyranny. If you wanted to be different, and you thought God was One Who was altogether different from the God the official church served, you had only 2 choices. Suffer and die for your faith, or move. When the new world was discovered, people moved. The result was the separation of church and state, each staying in their own lane and their own restricted parameters.
All was fine until the rise of secularism and the occult in the new world. And today, in the midst of a faith crisis, the church is confused on how to handle itself. Sadly, they are reverting back to their dark age roots, and seeking to impose religion through government legislation. This course now being followed in America is merely a reflection on how the church views it's God. They believe He is a God, like in the middle ages, who advocates for torture and force in order to impose truth and compel people to live in righteousness. In the last book of the Bible, it is revealed that the woman (the church) will ride the beast (state), enforcing doctrine (wine of Babylon) and killing those who refuse. Jesus said, the time will come when those who kill you will think they are serving God. Clearly, they have a completely wrong perception of who God is, and what He is like. That's the great controversy we are living in today. It all hinges around Who you believe God to be. A God Who requires obedience at the point of a sword or the barrel of a gun through government legislation, or a God of love and freedom?
The world today is being propelled toward honouring the Antichrist. The nations are in the process of being gathered together into a global union on the basis of commonly held fears. Climate change, environmental disaster, nuclear war, food shortages, economic collapse, moral decay etc etc. in order to create a new world order. This cannot, and is not, being accomplished without the active participation and leadership of the church. And the church, specifically the Vatican, had been working towards such global hegemony for centuries. Prophecy reveals this reality, and we are witnessing the inevitable culmination of this union of church and state, first in apostate Protestant America who will then join with the papacy .... “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. ”
Revelation 13:7 KJV
Unfeigned Bible what,/Revelation.13.7
That's the issue of theodicy. Who, and what do you think of God? What is He like? What kind of character does He possess? And is that the character we are told to represent to the world? I have an altogether different idea of the character of God than many on this forum. How about you?
There's a further aspect to this. The church was designed to reflect Christ. Agreed? Not only in the NT, but throughout all history. God had His champions, yet at some time or other, they fell short of God's ideal, but never has God veered away from His ultimate purpose. To have a people on earth that would demonstrate implicit faith in Him as their sovereign Lord, and in their lives allow God to show forth the glory of the principles that undergird His kingdom.Like what questions for instance??
I thought you wanted to discuss the problem of theodicy.
Instead you want to discuss why bad things happen to good people?
Looks like you have a good grasp on the why....
Sadly, God's people more often than not have not represented Him well. Violence, compulsion and force, and threats of vengeance, even death, has characterised the church for millennia. Through union with the state powers, the church has inducted much suffering to those who sought a different path than the official line. It mattered not what line of Christianity was in charge, the result was very similar. Even the reformation came with its own problems, the truths discovered and taught such as Sola Scriptura, Sola Christus, Sola Fide, and Sola Gracia, were bound up in church/state conformity, being a carry over from mediaeval tyranny. If you wanted to be different, and you thought God was One Who was altogether different from the God the official church served, you had only 2 choices. Suffer and die for your faith, or move. When the new world was discovered, people moved. The result was the separation of church and state, each staying in their own lane and their own restricted parameters.
All was fine until the rise of secularism and the occult in the new world. And today, in the midst of a faith crisis, the church is confused on how to handle itself. Sadly, they are reverting back to their dark age roots, and seeking to impose religion through government legislation. This course now being followed in America is merely a reflection on how the church views it's God. They believe He is a God, like in the middle ages, who advocates for torture and force in order to impose truth and compel people to live in righteousness. In the last book of the Bible, it is revealed that the woman (the church) will ride the beast (state), enforcing doctrine (wine of Babylon) and killing those who refuse. Jesus said, the time will come when those who kill you will think they are serving God. Clearly, they have a completely wrong perception of who God is, and what He is like. That's the great controversy we are living in today. It all hinges around Who you believe God to be. A God Who requires obedience at the point of a sword or the barrel of a gun through government legislation, or a God of love and freedom?
The world today is being propelled toward honouring the Antichrist. The nations are in the process of being gathered together into a global union on the basis of commonly held fears. Climate change, environmental disaster, nuclear war, food shortages, economic collapse, moral decay etc etc. in order to create a new world order. This cannot, and is not, being accomplished without the active participation and leadership of the church. And the church, specifically the Vatican, had been working towards such global hegemony for centuries. Prophecy reveals this reality, and we are witnessing the inevitable culmination of this union of church and state, first in apostate Protestant America who will then join with the papacy .... “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. ”
Revelation 13:7 KJV
Unfeigned Bible what,/Revelation.13.7
That's the issue of theodicy. Who, and what do you think of God? What is He like? What kind of character does He possess? And is that the character we are told to represent to the world? I have an altogether different idea of the character of God than many on this forum. How about you?
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Hiddenthings
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We acknowledge that Revelation is highly symbolic, yet it points to real (historical and future) events. The real effort lies in understanding those events. When you share something, you should carefully consider whether what you’re posting truly reflects truth. SDA's usually have a high degree of integrity when it comes to careful Bible reading.
Brakelite
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Indeed they do. But rattling off a screed of Bible texts for many is simply sensory overload. They just switch off.
The symbolic women are also symbolic, but of real women? No. Two churches, one true, faithful, and pure, the other unfaithful through association with government, and apostate.
But not only revelation refers directly to and informs us specifically of the identity of the dragon (Rev.12), but also many other texts in other books in the N.T. refer directly to Satan, identifying him as a personal being. Jesus isn't being metaphorical when he said to Peter,
“31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. ”
Luke 22:31-32 KJV
Or here...
“And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven . ”
Luke 10:18 KJV
Let's get back to Revelation and your claim heaven has always been a place of peace and safety...
“7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. ”
Revelation 12:7-8 KJV
The Bible tells you who the Dragon is.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
I went for the low-hanging fruit.“And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven . ”
Luke 10:18 KJV
Do you honestly believe Jesus is talking about your so-called evil angel in Luke 10:18? Seriously?
That’s just lazy reading of the text, nothing more.
What was the adversary the Lord rejoiced to see fall “like” lightning from heaven?
You should know better, Brakelite....you know the context right?
If you can't discern Luke 10:18 how on earth can you understand the Revelation?
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Job seems relevant. Nobody could be found to serve as a Judge over God.
I think... we still can't find a judge for THE JUDGE.
I was born a sinner in need of redemption.
Who should I blame for that?
Life is hard. Who should I blame for that?
Terrible things are happening every day.
Who should I blame for that?
I'm dying. Who should I blame for that?
[
And most important, you reject the Christian Bible. Who should you blame for that?
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