The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)

[Hiddenthings]

There is no maybe to it. OP is incapable of correcting his erroneous dogma. It's not even worth it to help him see. His consciousness is seared. His pride and hubris are to powerful to overcome. These types are dime a dozen.

Anyhow, for those interested in a deeper understanding of this topic, much hasbeen learned over the last few decades. Incredible progress has been made. We don't have to guess at this stuff anymore.

The Throne Room in Revelation *IS* Abraham's Bosom. It is Paradise where Jesus went after the Crucifixion...

The Lamb is going to lead them out of Abraham's Bosom and into the Gates of New Jerusalem...

It has yet to be emptied out. The Redeemed still go there upon death.

The Throne/Heart surrounded by Twenty Four Elders/Ribs, etc., etc., etc. So simple to understand, a caveman can figure this stuff out...

The Kingdom of God is within. OP was supposed to seek it first but skipped that part.

Later.

You’ve missed the Lord’s rebuke entirely; rather than addressing the central themes of the parable, you’ve gone off on a biological tangent. If you had a clearer grasp of the Pharisees’ doctrines, and their insistence on claiming Abraham as their father you might come closer to understanding the true meaning of this parable.

Here are a few absurdities to consider if we take this passage in a strictly literal sense:

• Can there really be a “great chasm” so vast that no one can cross it, yet small enough that people on both sides can carry on a clear conversation without difficulty?
• If someone were truly being tormented in flames, as the rich man was, would he ask only for a single “drop of water” to ease his agony? Wouldn’t a jug, a jar, or at least a handful of water be far more reasonable?
• Are we to believe the rich man was so irrational as to expect righteous Lazarus to abandon the comfort of “Abraham’s bosom” in order to visit him in the flames of fire?
• How is it that Abraham was aware of the writings of “Moses and the prophets” (v.29)? Does this mean Abraham is omniscient, or are we to imagine copies of the Scriptures being stored in that place for him to read?

There are plenty more to consider if you think this parable is speaking to literal realities.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Hidden
I don't grasp the truth from threads.

You believe in soul sleep, or some comparable idea.

If the soul exists,,,,then it must continue to exist.

If it dies,,,where dies it go?

You have nothing in you which is immortal.

Sorry.

 

[Hiddenthings]

LOL x100 = you brought on the diversion but it backfired (for you) AND it magnified the TRUTH of Genesis

Two of your three points were already addressed (laid down), and as for the first, you’ve yet to explain why it was significant. Why would Jesus, in rebuking the Pharisees, choose to reference Abraham rather than Moses, for example?

Think carefully, David, think!

 

[David in NJ]

Two of your three points were already addressed (laid down), and as for the first, you’ve yet to explain why it was significant. Why would Jesus, in rebuking the Pharisees, choose to reference Abraham rather than Moses, for example?

Think carefully, David, think!

Why would Jesus, in rebuking the Pharisees, choose to reference Abraham rather than Moses, for example?

Think carefully Hidden

Think to PRAY and then read GENESIS and PRAY some more...............then let God's Word do some thinking for you!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Think carefully Hidden

Think to PRAY and then read GENESIS and PRAY some more...............then let God's Word do some thinking for you!

If you cannot see that the parable is the Master’s direct rebuke of both the Pharisees and their doctrine, then you have no real place in this discussion, you are simply walking in the same path as those whom the Lord himself rebuked.

As I’ve already pointed out, your refusal to acknowledge that points 2 and 3 hold no weight shows the level of honesty you bring to this forum. Point 1, however, still rests with you to explain:

Why did Jesus invoke Abraham and not Moses?

 

[David in NJ]

Why Abraham and not Moses?

Too easy of a question

No more 'freebies' for you.

JESUS Says it's time for you to do your Homework

 

[Hiddenthings]

Too easy of a question

No more 'freebies' for you.

JESUS Says it's time for you to do your Homework

Typical - you have nothing to offer...wow

 

[PS95]

Hidden
I don't grasp the truth from threads.

You believe in soul sleep, or some comparable idea.

If the soul exists,,,,then it must continue to exist.

If it dies,,,where dies it go?

GG- how have you been? Hiddenthings is a Christadelphian- Jesus had no pre-existence, soul sleep, no actual devil, etc.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The answer to which David simply cannot give is found in John 8 and the Pharisees "claim" to having Abraham as their lineage.

Abraham’s Faith

Another great promise is fulfilled in Christ, the very promise given to Abraham. Abraham understood and believed it, but his opponents did not. Therefore, despite their loud claims (John 8:33), they were not true sons of Abraham any more than unbelieving Ishmael was.

In fact it's crazy that @David in NJ is showing the same spirit concerning the Lord's rebuking parable.

Abraham rejoiced in the promise. Does not Scripture say that he laughed for joy, saying, “Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” (Gen. 17:17). And did not Abraham, himself newly named, take delight in calling his son Isaac? (Gen. 21:3).

But Jesus’ meaning went deeper than Isaac’s birth, or even his own birth. Abraham’s rejoicing was the expression of faith that looked forward to the day of Christ (Lk 17:22) a day when his Seed would possess the gate of his enemies (Gen. 22:17). On the mountain of sacrifice, Abraham declared in faith, “God will provide (lit. will see) for Himself the lamb, my son” (Gen. 22:8; cp. Moriah—“the seeing of Yahweh”). Thus, Abraham saw Christ’s day “from afar” (Heb. 11:13), and was glad.

The learned Jews understood what Jesus was implying, but instead of facing it, they twisted his words into a deliberate mockery: “You’ve seen Abraham? You’re not even fifty years old!”

Irenaeus, an unreliable early church writer, even inferred from this that Jesus was nearly fifty at his crucifixion. But perhaps the Jews were sneering at how worn and prematurely aged he looked. Or maybe they were sarcastically hinting at priestly retirement age (Num. 4:3, 39), as though to say: “Are you claiming to be Abraham’s king-priest, Melchizedek?”

Jesus ignored their foolishness and cut straight to the heart of the matter: “Before Abraham was, I am.”

This is the essence of faith: the whole purpose of God in the world has always centred in Christ, foreordained from the beginning (1 Pet. 1:20; Rev. 13:8). John the Baptist had testified, “He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.” (John 1:15). And so it was also with Abraham his saving faith was that Christ was first in relation to him.

The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus shows that their attitude and doctrine were out of step with God’s Word and His character. Therefore, they had no true claim on Abraham, no matter how many tears they shed.

David is unable to address these themes because he refuses to accept the true context and meaning of the parable. It’s clear he understands them, yet his prideful resistance prevents him from openly acknowledging the truth.

 

[Exegesis]

...you’ve gone off on a biological tangent. If you had a clearer grasp...

The irony of those two phrases together. It tells me everything I need to know about you OP.

At least you proved my point. Time to put you on ignore. Later.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The irony of those two phrases together. It tells me everything I need to know about you OP.

At least you proved my point. Time to put you on ignore. Later.

This says a lot. You can’t explain the parable or address its core principles, so I’m going to put you on ignore. I’ve never done that before and refuse to, it feels childish and out of step with the Spirit of Christ.

If you prefer people to believe your pictures rather than engage with the context and meaning of the Master’s parable, maybe you should be the one to go on ignore.

Then use this time wisely to learn of the Lord's parable.

 

[Jack]

This says a lot. You can’t explain the parable or address its core principles, so I’m going to put you on ignore. I’ve never done that before and refuse to, it feels childish and out of step with the Spirit of Christ.

If you prefer people to believe your pictures rather than engage with the context and meaning of the Master’s parable, maybe you should be the one to go on ignore.

Then use this time wisely to learn of the Lord's parable.

You don't believe that Jesus is God??? Naughty naughty!

Col 1 By Him all things were created!

ONLY God is the Creator!

 

[keithr]

You believe in soul sleep, or some comparable idea.

If the soul exists,,,,then it must continue to exist.

If it dies,,,where dies it go? [where does it go?]

1 Corinthians 15:12-18 (WEB):

(12) Now if Christ is preached, that he has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?​

(13) But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised.​

(14) If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain.​

(15) Yes, we are also found false witnesses of God, because we testified about God that he raised up Christ, whom he didn’t raise up, if it is so that the dead are not raised.​

(16) For if the dead aren’t raised, neither has Christ been raised.​

(17) If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.​

(18) Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.​

If you are dead then you are not alive - so you have no thoughts whatsoever; you are unconscious, like a deep dreamless sleep - Psalms 146:4 (MKJV):

​

(4) His breath goes forth; he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

The dead are unconscious, and will not have any conscious thoughts until they are resurrected. Therefore, as Paul wrote, if there is no resurrection then everyone who has died is already perished, and will never live again. It doesn't matter where the soul goes if it is lifeless; if a seed doesn't sprout into life then it is just lifeless dust of the earth, similarly a soul that has no life is of no consequence unless God gives it life.

Edit:
Therefore, knowing that Scriptural truth, you should then be able to understand that the parable was indeed Jesus using the pagan ideas that the Pharisees believed, rather than a description of real people who died and continued living in some weird physical place where they can have thoughts and discussions, and still have the senses of sight, hearing and pain. It sounds like they haven't died at all, just transported to somewhere else! Lazarus was transported there by angels, but the rich man was just buried!

 

[Jack]

1 Corinthians 15:12-18 (WEB):

(12) Now if Christ is preached, that he has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?​

(13) But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised.​

(14) If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain.​

(15) Yes, we are also found false witnesses of God, because we testified about God that he raised up Christ, whom he didn’t raise up, if it is so that the dead are not raised.​

(16) For if the dead aren’t raised, neither has Christ been raised.​

(17) If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.​

(18) Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.​

If you are dead then you are not alive - so you have no thoughts whatsoever; you are unconscious, like a deep dreamless sleep - Psalms 146:4 (MKJV):

​

(4) His breath goes forth; he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

The dead are unconscious, and will not have any conscious thoughts until they are resurrected. Therefore, as Paul wrote, if there is no resurrection then everyone who has died is already perished, and will never live again. It doesn't matter where the soul goes if it is lifeless; if a seed doesn't sprout into life then it is just lifeless dust of the earth, similarly a soul that has no life is of no consequence unless God gives it life.

"Death" NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible! Millions of JW's will wish they don't exist!

 

[keithr]

"Death" NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible! Millions of JW's will wish they don't exist!

Can you love a God who is going to torture millions of people, forcing them to endure agonising pain, for all eternity? Do you agree that that is reasonable justice? God declares justice should be "life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Deuteronomy 19:21), and Jesus said, Matthew 5:38-48 (WEB):

(38) “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’​

(39) But I tell you, don’t resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.​

(40) If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also.​

(41) Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.​

(42) Give to him who asks you, and don’t turn away him who desires to borrow from you.​

(43) “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’​

(44) But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you,​

(45) that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.​

(46) For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same?​

(47) If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same?​

(48) Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.​

God also said, Jeremiah 32:35 (WEB):

(35) They built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through fire to Molech; which I didn’t command them. It didn’t even come into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”​

So our God, who never changes, declared that making sons and daughters to pass through fire was an abomination and a sin, and something that He would never think of asking anyone to do. Would He then go on to commit a greater abominal sin by making millions of His sons and daughters to suffer agony in fire, miracluously keeping them from being consumed and dying so that they must endure the agony for all eternity? Could you love a God who would do that to people that you have loved - perhaps your children, wife, parents and friends? Could you really "'love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment" (Mark 12:30 WEB)?

1 John 4:8-21 (WEB):

(8) He who doesn’t love doesn’t know God, for God is love.​

(9) By this God’s love was revealed in us, that God has sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.​

(10) In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.​

(11) Beloved, if God loved us in this way, we also ought to love one another.​

(12) No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God remains in us, and his love has been perfected in us.​

(13) By this we know that we remain in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.​

(14) We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world.​

(15) Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God.​

(16) We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.​

(17) In this love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world.​

(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.​

(19) We love him, because he first loved us.​

(20) If a man says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who doesn’t love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?​

(21) This commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should also love his brother.​

Would God command us to love our brothers if He didn't love our brothers too? Would He show that love by torturing our brothers for all eternity if they don't love Him and refuse to be like Him?

The Scriptures say that our destiny is either eternal life or to perish - not eternal life in torture.

Romans 6:23 (WEB):

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

2 Peter 3:9 (WEB):

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

Matthew 19:25-26 (WEB):

(25) When the disciples heard it, they were exceedingly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”​

(26) Looking at them, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”​

 

[Jack]

Can you love a God who is going to torture millions of people, forcing them to endure agonising pain, for all eternity?

Not millions, BILLIONS! Jesus said so.

 

[keithr]

Not millions, BILLIONS! Jesus said so.

John 3:16 (WEB):

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

Revelation 20:14-15 (WEB):

(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

(15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.​

If there is not a resurrection then we will all perish when we die. If after the resurrection to life people fail to meet the requirements for eternal life then they will suffer a second death. There will not be any more resurrections, so they will perish. The Bible clearly says that people who will not be granted eternal life will perish. Do you not believe the Bible, and Jesus' words (as in the verse quoted above)?

 

[Jack]

John 3:16 (WEB):

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

Revelation 20:14-15 (WEB):

(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

(15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.​

If there is not a resurrection then we will all perish when we die. If after the resurrection to life people fail to meet the requirements for eternal life then they will suffer a second death. There will not be any more resurrections, so they will perish. The Bible clearly says that people who will not be granted eternal life will perish. Do you not believe the Bible, and Jesus' words (as in the verse quoted above)?

IOW, you pick the parts of the Bible you like! You clearly omitted the WRATH and FEAR of God! MAIN Bible doctrines! Hell Fire, the MAIN Bible doctrine! Do they allow Bibles in Kingdom Hall?

 

[keithr]

IOW, you pick the parts of the Bible you like! You clearly omitted the WRATH and FEAR of God! MAIN Bible doctrines! Hell Fire, the MAIN Bible doctrine! Do they allow Bibles in Kingdom Hall?

I don't know, I've never been in a Kingdom hall. Hell fire is not the main Bible doctrine!

If there appears to be Bible verses which are not in harmony with each other then we should assume that we have not correctly understood one or more of those verses. We can only be confident in our understanding if we can understand all verses of the Bible in harmony. How do you understand and explain John 3:16 where Jesus says that those that believe in him will not perish but have eternal life? To perish does not mean that you will have eternal life being tormented in agony for ever. The Greek work used is apollumi, meaning to destroy fully. The UASV+ translates it as:

(16) For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that whoever believes in him will not be destroyed but have eternal life.​

 

[walter]

Read the words carefully does the words in the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, really sound like the words that should be taken literally?

• What did the Rich Man do to deserve to be in torment and agony?
• What did Lazarus do to deserve to be at Abraham's side?
• To "dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue" Would that really help a person in torment?
• Jesus was talking to Pharisees when he told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, does Luke 8:10 apply here?

Please look at these scriptures about parables: Mark 4:11, 33, 34, Matthew 13:11

Luke 8:10
He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’
Berean Standard Bible


This person is not of my faith, but he explains Hell fire better than I could ever do. With this 4-minute video.