Who Really Are The 144,000?

[Earburner]

The 144,000 represent sealed Israelites of the 'seed' of Israel. The tribes Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned because of prophecy about their falling away at the end. That is yet another pointer that those 144,00 do literally represent the seed of Israel, and not Gentiles.

The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 forward represents sealed Gentiles in Christ. BOTH groups represent Christ's Church.

The idea of the 'sealing' with God's seal is in prep to go through the future "great tribulation". That seal is the sealing of The Holy Spirit, which is another way we 'know', for certain, the 144,000 is about sealed Israelites in Christ's Church.

Why would the Israelites and Gentiles in Rev.7 be mentioned separately, one might ask? The Old Testament Books of God's prophets does that too, while maintaining Christ's Salvation for both together (see Isaiah 54 for one example).

God's Promises to the seed of Israel is not going to go away. Those in Christ simply become joint-heirs with the believers of the seed of Israel. Doesn't anyone recall that Apostle Paul applied the "commonwealth of Israel" label to believing Gentiles in Ephesians 2? and that Christ chose His 12 Apostles of the seed of Israel to sit upon 12 thrones in His future Kingdom over the 12 tribes of Israel? God's ordaining of election did not disappear with The New Covenant Jesus Christ.

No Israelite, whether under the OC or the NC can be saved without faith in the shed blood of Christ. So also the Gift of God, the receiving of God's Holy Spirit, could not be permanently given to anyone, until the glorification of Jesus through His resurrection. John 7:39.

Are you saying that God forgot Abraham, Moses etc., and all the prophets??
He absolutely did not. Malachi 3:16. They are shown receiving the Holy Spirit after Christ's resurrection in Rev. 6:9-11.
So now, they are written in the Lamb's book of Life, which is Jesus Himself, and are resting (asleep) in Jesus.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You can go to ten different Churches and you may hear ten different interpretations of just who the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are. For some reason, those who don't actually know, because they don't heed what is written there in Rev.7 as being literal, come up with all sorts of wild concoctions for who it means. But stick to God's Word as written, and it becomes revealed in simplicity.

Rev 7:1-4
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

That above description is about the very end of this present world. That is what those above symbols point to, the destruction of 2 Peter 3:10 on the "day of the Lord", which is the LAST DAY of this present world. Those 4 angels represent the power to go forth on that last day.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

That is revealing a hold on those 4 angels letting the destruction on the last day loose. Before any of that, God has decreed that HIS servants be SEALED with HIS SEAL in their foreheads.


When you get to Revelation 9, you should then understand more about this specific 'sealing' of those with God's Seal...

Rev 9:3-4
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV

Those locusts are allowed to sting ONLY those NOT SEALED with God's SEAL.

That means the 144,000 that are SEALED with GOD's Seal in their foreheads CANNOT be stung by those locusts.

What is that locust sting? Well, since they cannot hurt any green thing, nor kill, and later Rev.9 shows their power is in their MOUTHS, that means the 'sting' is pointing to WORDS OF DECEPTION out of their mouths. And the ONLY ones that will not be subject to that stinging are Christ's faithful elect, His faithful CHURCH.


Thus the 144,000 represent SEALED Israelites of 12,000 from each of those 12 tribes mentioned there in Revelation 7. They are SEALED with GOD's Seal in prep for the great tribulation. They are part of Christ's Church, prior to the "great tribulation", and through the "great tribulation", and all the way up to Christ's coming to gather His faithful Church on the last day of this world.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
KJV


Then at Revelation 7:9, John is shown a "great multitude" that came out of "great tribulation". That DOES NOT MEAN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE. John is shown those having gone through... the great tribulation also, like those 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. And that is why the "great multitude" is shown to John after the fact, their standing before the throne of God and Jesus AFTER He has returned, a reference to the Eternity. That means, that "great multitude" is SEALED with GOD'S SEAL also, in prep to go through the "great tribulation" and be overcomers in Christ Jesus.


Another Biblical FACT:
ONLY the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent the JEWS of the "house of Judah". The remaining Israelite tribes (10 of them), represent the "house of Israel". All 12 tribes of Israel were scattered by God because of their rebellion against Him. But it was to the "house of Israel" (10 tribes) that Jesus said He was specifically sent to, and they would believe The Gospel. Only a remnant of JEWS believed on Lord Jesus Christ. The largest majority of today's JEWS are still blinded away from The Gospel (Romans 11).

Therefore, those 144,000 are NOT all Jewish Israelites. The majority of them represent lost ten tribes which were scattered among the Gentiles first per 2 Kings 17. And descendants of those ten lost tribe Israelites make up a HUGE portion of Christ's Church today! Thus no man can rightly try to separate those 144,000 Israelites from Christ's Church. ONLY those Sealed with God's Seal in their foreheads represent Christ's Church in Revelation.

Nobody will say in those churches you mention that they are anything but what the bible says.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Getting back to the title of this thread, I shall continue to emphasize that the 144,000 are already redeemed from the earth, of which took place after Jesus' resurrection and/or on Pentecost. But, as it was said to them, they "must rest yet for a little season" Rev. 6:11. Therefore, though they are still waiting to be resurrected into immortality, they NOW have "the seal of God", and are asleep (at rest) in Jesus.

Those who were of faith in the "Promised one" to come, are of the 12 tribes of OC Israel who were under the altar of the OC. They are the symbolic 144,000 in Rev. Though they had died long ago, they were not forgotten by God. Malachi 3:16.
We can see them "under the altar" of the OC, crying to God for vengeance. Rev. 6:9-11.

Because Jesus did come and was glorified (John 7:39) , by their faith in waiting for the coming of Jesus in His first appearance in the flesh, they were found to be worthy to receive the Gift of God's Holy Spirit, symbolized as "white robes".
John 7
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
In other words, everyone of faith in Israel of the Messiah who was to come, being under the OC, were not allowed to have the permanency of the Gift of God's Holy Spirit until AFTER Jesus' resurrection into New Life.


All and anyone who are of Israel living, that comes to God through faith in Jesus, ever since after Pentecost, ARE OF "the Great Multitude".
Rom. 10
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

No
They were sealed in the gt, or trib or whatever the modern view is.
They were SPECIFICALLY sealed against the flying scorpions.
You are incorrect in those jumps you made.

 

[rebuilder 454]

NOPE!

The 144,000 prophecy of Revelation 7 is LINKED TO PROPHETIC EVENTS ABOUT THE END OF THIS WORLD, not back in past history.

Rev 7:1-4
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
KJV

The above in red is about the subject of the destruction of this present world on the last day. The four angels are given power to bring that future destruction forth, but... are told to WAIT... until the servants of God have been SEALED in their foreheads.

The SEALING of Christ's servants didn't even begin until The Gospel Faith came and The Holy Spirit Comforter. That means IMPOSSIBLE for the SEALING of Rev.7 being about anytime PRIOR to beginning of Christ's Church with the preaching of The Gospel.

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV


Eph 1:13
13 In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV


Eph 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV


Rev 9:3-5
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
KJV

Thus The New Testament time is the first time when being SEALED by The Holy Spirit is even mentioned. And those in Christ didn't receive the gift of The Holy Spirit until AFTER... Christ's death and resurrection.

So the idea that the 'souls under the Altar' of the 5th Seal are told to WAIT... until their fellowservants are killed as they were, is POINTING TO THE GREAT TRIBULATION time at the very end of this world, and thus that 144,000 of Rev.7, and the "great multitude" of Rev.7:9.

early in the trib the martyrs are mow allowed into the general population, no longer confined under the altar.
Which points to a pretrib rapture.
The innumerable number martyred by the ac and now in heaven, are those left behind.
Millions or billions martyred early on in the trib.
No believers are going through Jacobs trouble.
The trib is for israel.

 

[Earburner]

I think you misunderstood here.

God's Word clearly states that:

1.) The Spirit of Salvation WAS with the Old Testament Saints.
2.) With the pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is a New Dispensation unto the Gentiles.

Yet these spirits are the same Holy Spirit. Not two.

Eph 3:2-6
(2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
(4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
(5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
(6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Joh 7:35-39
(35) Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
(36) What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
(37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
(38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Now, any idea WHY the Jews said that? ...not a clue huh? Selah!

Joh 14:16-17
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Taking a Scripture out of context in an attempt to FORCE it to mean (not say) that The Holy Spirit had ever before been given. That is complete nonsense! The Holy SPirit of God has been given MANY TIMES throughout Scripture. But it had not been given in this new dispensation of Revelation and salvation to the whole world. For example, what is the Mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, and HOW it that mystery now REVEALED! By the dispensation of the Holy Spirit. The seals are loosed and the books opened that the Spirit of Truth REVEALS these things to the Apostles.

Joh 16:12-15
(12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Again, I don't make this stuff up, it is written. But you seem to read the Bible is a discursive manner where you just go from one passage to another passage to another attempting to make the Holy Spirit being given in the Old Testament a contradiction. But it is NOT, and never will be. God has given the Spirit of Revelation, and it is plainly written. John 7 does not prove your point, it reveals the gospel will be "made known" to them and they shall preach it to the ends of the Earth. Something which they had never done BEFORE, and which was in fact abhorrent to them before this time...as the Gentiles were looked upon as dogs:

Joh 7:38-39
(38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Once Jesus was glorified and sent the Holy Spirit of Revelation, only then did they now realize that salvation (that was in old testament period) is REVEALED to go to the Gentile nations. Only then was the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost to this end revealed in them speaking in tongues (the languages of all the other nations, not babbling or gibberish tongues as most taught in charmastic churches). Just because you don't get it doesn't mean that it is not true. The fact is, I have no satisfactory to acceptable answer for you...to others, perhaps.

So are you telling me that the Old Testament Saints NEVER received the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit was not poured yet until Pentecost? Wrong! Consider wisely what Isaiah wrote:

Isa 63:11
(11) Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Are you going to listen to God's Word or your own ideas of things? As we've seen, it does not really matter to you how many Scirptures I post that show the Holy Spirit of God within His Old Testament prophets, you continue to scoff at it, and deny it, and in essence make God a Liar claiming that the Holy Spirit was not really given in the Old Testament? So what we have here is a miscommunication. We have God's unadulterated Word unambiguously saying it was, and then we have your denials of that? Who should we believe?

1Pe 1:10-11
(10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Indeed, who are we to believe? You, who thinks that your passage can contradict another passage, or do we take ALL scripture in harmony with itself and not force it to mean things it does not say? You do understand that God "NEVER" said that the Holy Spirit never indwelled man BEFORE the cross, don't you? You do recognize that is your interpretation, not what was actually said...by contrast, I quoted what God actually said. See the difference?...probably not!

Rom 3:4
(4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Therefore, I am justified in bearing witness to God's Word. The question is, are you justified in denying it?

Israel of faith, "under the altar" of the OC, were heirs of the promise to come, but ONLY through God's "remembrance" of them as shown in Malachi 3:16.

No one under the OC ever had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, until AFTER Jesus' death and resurrection.
Come on....surely you do know WHY!!
It has to do with the shedding of His innocent blood!!

Rev. 6:9-11 reveals those of Israel who had died in faith, but were still waiting to be clothed with white robes, which is the Gift of God's Holy Spirit.
Quite literally, they are the symbolic 144,000 of OC Israel.

 

[David in NJ]

Israel of faith, "under the altar" of the OC, were heirs of the promise to come, but ONLY through God's "remembrance" of them as shown in Malachi 3:16.

No one under the OC ever had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, until AFTER Jesus' death and resurrection.
Come on....surely you do know WHY!!
It has to do with the shedding of His innocent blood!!

Rev. 6:9-11 reveals those of Israel who had died in faith, but were still waiting to be clothed with white robes, which is the Gift of God's Holy Spirit.
Quite literally, they are the symbolic 144,000 of OC Israel.

No one under the OC ever had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, until AFTER Jesus' death and resurrection.

100% CORRECT Irrefutable TRUTH

Quite literally, they are the symbolic 144,000 of OC Israel.

You are off-course here

 

[TribulationSigns]

Israel of faith, "under the altar" of the OC, were heirs of the promise to come, but ONLY through God's "remembrance" of them as shown in Malachi 3:16.

False. Souls under the altar are ALL of the Saints who have died before God's judgment of Babylon the Great.

No one under the OC ever had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, until AFTER Jesus' death and resurrection.
Come on....surely you do know WHY!!

Yes, they did. They had the same faith as us. Haven't you read Zechariah 14?

Zec 14:8-9
(8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
(9) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The Living Water, Holy Spirit, went out of Jersualem (where Christ was on the Cross), Half went to the former sea (OC), and half go to hinder sea (NC). All saints on both side had the Holy Spirit.

It has to do with the shedding of His innocent blood!!

Well, duh. Read Zechariah 14:8-9

Rev. 6:9-11 reveals those of Israel who had died in faith, but were still waiting to be clothed with white robes, which is the Gift of God's Holy Spirit.

Not true. They were not "waiting" in heaven. You do not understand the picture of Revelation 6

Quite literally, they are the symbolic 144,000 of OC Israel.

Once again, wrong. The 144,000 is symbolic of ALL Saints from the old testament and new testament. Go read Revealtion 21 to figure out about the 12 gates and 12 foundations.

Rev 21:12-17
(12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
(13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
(14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

THe great city is the bride of Christ, making up of all Saints from the OT and NT. They are the 144,000! Not only your so-called OC Saints.

Read an article on Revelation 7 here.

 

[rebuilder 454]

False. Souls under the altar are ALL of the Saints who have died before God's judgment of Babylon the Great.



Yes, they did. They had the same faith as us. Haven't you read Zechariah 14?

Zec 14:8-9
(8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
(9) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The Living Water, Holy Spirit, went out of Jersualem (where Christ was on the Cross), Half went to the former sea (OC), and half go to hinder sea (NC). All saints on both side had the Holy Spirit.




Well, duh. Read Zechariah 14:8-9


Not true. They were not "waiting" in heaven. You do not understand the picture of Revelation 6


Once again, wrong. The 144,000 is symbolic of ALL Saints from the old testament and new testament. Go read Revealtion 21 to figure out about the 12 gates and 12 foundations.

Rev 21:12-17
(12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
(13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
(14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

THe great city is the bride of Christ, making up of all Saints from the OT and NT. They are the 144,000! Not only your so-called OC Saints.

Read an article on Revelation 7 here.

QUOTE
"False. Souls under the altar are ALL of the Saints who have died before God's judgment of Babylon the Great."

The soul's under the altar cannot be the soul's from the tribulation. because they are told to remain under the altar until they're number is fulfilled.
Later on, we see the tribulation saints in heaven. They were beheaded by the AC. They are the innumerable number and it even says they came out of the tribulation.
They are not confined under the alter, but are in the general population. Which indicates the Gentile church is completely harvested.
This goes back to Romans, chapter 11, where we see the 2 covenant people and they are dealt with separately and they are the 2 brides.
The gentle church has to be completed. That's why it says Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles till the time of the Gentiles is completed.

Which is illustrated in Ruth.

 

[Davy]

Israel of faith, "under the altar" of the OC, were heirs of the promise to come, but ONLY through God's "remembrance" of them as shown in Malachi 3:16.

No one under the OC ever had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, until AFTER Jesus' death and resurrection.
Come on....surely you do know WHY!!
It has to do with the shedding of His innocent blood!!

Rev. 6:9-11 reveals those of Israel who had died in faith, but were still waiting to be clothed with white robes, which is the Gift of God's Holy Spirit.
Quite literally, they are the symbolic 144,000 of OC Israel.

Man, I don't where in the world you get that idea that the white robes represent The Holy Spirit. They do represent a saint belonging to Christ, that much is obvious. But Rev.7:9-15 with their white robes is about the saints AFTER Jesus has returned to hand out His rewards.

The saints of Rev.6:11 are already there in Heaven with The LORD.

The 144,000 of Rev.7:1-8 is meant LITERALLY for the END of this world. They all represent Israelites of the seed that go through the coming "great tribulation".

That is why the four winds are held back until they are SEALED with God's Seal for the end, which is directly related to the SEALING of Rev.9 by The Holy Spirit with God's Seal against deception of the END.

Only 3 of those tribes of Israel mentioned in Rev.7 represent the JEWS of the "house of Judah". The rest of those Israelite tribes represent the ten northern tribes that were scattered first out of the holy land, and never called themselves by the title of JEW, because that title originated from the sole tribe of Judah, and that's what those of the southern kingdom of Judah called themselves.

The ten tribes would migrate westward from their Assyrian captivity into Asia Minor and Europe and become the western Christian nations. That fulfilled the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations", and that his brother Manasseh also would become a great nation (America).

Thus ALL... of those 144,000 of Rev.7 represent the SEALED ISRAELITE SEED of Christ's Church being sealed with God's Seal in prep for the "great tribulation" at the end of this world.

 

[Earburner]

the bible explains how The Jews come in last after the gentiles.
And that re-grafting is through Jesus.
Truly impossible to miss.

All Jews that come to faith in Jesus, ever since Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was made available to ALL of human flesh, ARE OF "the Great Multitude".

 

[quietthinker]

All Jews that come to faith in Jesus, ever since Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was made available to ALL of human flesh, ARE OF "the Great Multitude".

Hearing is one thing but seeing qualifies the language of hearing.

 

[Earburner]

Man, I don't where in the world you get that idea that the white robes represent The Holy Spirit. They do represent a saint belonging to Christ, that much is obvious. But Rev.7:9-15 with their white robes is about the saints AFTER Jesus has returned to hand out His rewards.

The saints of Rev.6:11 are already there in Heaven with The LORD.

The 144,000 of Rev.7:1-8 is meant LITERALLY for the END of this world. They all represent Israelites of the seed that go through the coming "great tribulation".

That is why the four winds are held back until they are SEALED with God's Seal for the end, which is directly related to the SEALING of Rev.9 by The Holy Spirit with God's Seal against deception of the END.

Only 3 of those tribes of Israel mentioned in Rev.7 represent the JEWS of the "house of Judah". The rest of those Israelite tribes represent the ten northern tribes that were scattered first out of the holy land, and never called themselves by the title of JEW, because that title originated from the sole tribe of Judah, and that's what those of the southern kingdom of Judah called themselves.

The ten tribes would migrate westward from their Assyrian captivity into Asia Minor and Europe and become the western Christian nations. That fulfilled the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations", and that his brother Manasseh also would become a great nation (America).

Thus ALL... of those 144,000 of Rev.7 represent the SEALED ISRAELITE SEED of Christ's Church being sealed with God's Seal in prep for the "great tribulation" at the end of this world.

Rom. 10[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Hearing is one thing but seeing qualifies the language of hearing.

Rom. 10[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

[quietthinker]

Rom. 10[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Rom. 10[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

could you put your response to what I've said into context please?

 

[Davy]

Rom. 10[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Rom. 10[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Irrelevant as to what I was talking about.

 

[rebuilder 454]

All Jews that come to faith in Jesus, ever since Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was made available to ALL of human flesh, ARE OF "the Great Multitude".

Romans 11. The 2 harvests described.
The messianic Jews are born again like any ethnic group.

Rev 14 is ethnic Jews first fruits, the 144k which emphatically points to a ethnic Jew main harvest THROUGH JESUS SITTING ON A CLOUD.
The Jewish Messiah they have waited for for thousands of years.
So yes all Jews and gentle come to faith through Jesus.
As I have always insisted.

The great multitude no man can count came out of the trib.
They can not be the same group of rev 14.
The innumerable number are the left behind church.
It even says their robes needed washing.
Dirty robes indicates carnal believers.

 

[Earburner]

All Jews that come to faith in Jesus, ever since Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was made available to ALL of human flesh, ARE OF "the Great Multitude".

@quietthinker replied:
Hearing is one thing but seeing qualifies the language of hearing.

@Earburner replied:
Rom. 10[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

[Earburner]

Romans 11. The 2 harvests described.
The messianic Jews are born again like any ethnic group.

Rev 14 is ethnic Jews first fruits, the 144k which emphatically points to a ethnic Jew main harvest THROUGH JESUS SITTING ON A CLOUD.
The Jewish Messiah they have waited for for thousands of years.
So yes all Jews and gentle come to faith through Jesus.
As I have always insisted.

The great multitude no man can count came out of the trib.
They can not be the same group of rev 14.
The innumerable number are the left behind church.
It even says their robes needed washing.
Dirty robes indicates carnal believers.

The repentant thief on the cross was a repentant, "carnal believer". What happened to him?? Yeah, I see no distinction in what you say about robes.

"Robes" are symbolic of Christ's righteousness, aka the Holy Spirit, of which EVERY person (both OC and NC) needs to have, in order for them to enter into the KoG. Surely you must know this? See John 3:3-8. The parable of the wedding garment fully explains this. Mat. 22:10-14.

However, those who were of faith, while living under the OC of Israel, NEVER could be permanently given the Holy Spirit UNTIL AFTER Jesus was glorified. John 7
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Therefore, in Rev. 6:9-11, we see OC Israel of faith receiving the white robes, WHO ARE the symbolic 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel, who died in faith while under the OC.
God did not forget them of whom He "remembered". Malachi 3:16-18.
Which is exactly the same word the repentant thief used: "Remember me.....".

And Jesus did exactly that, on the very day of His own death. Mat. 27:51-54.
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the [OC] saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
[54] Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, SAW the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

 

[LoveYeshua]

You can go to ten different Churches and you may hear ten different interpretations of just who the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are. For some reason, those who don't actually know, because they don't heed what is written there in Rev.7 as being literal, come up with all sorts of wild concoctions for who it means. But stick to God's Word as written, and it becomes revealed in simplicity.

Rev 7:1-4
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

That above description is about the very end of this present world. That is what those above symbols point to, the destruction of 2 Peter 3:10 on the "day of the Lord", which is the LAST DAY of this present world. Those 4 angels represent the power to go forth on that last day.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

That is revealing a hold on those 4 angels letting the destruction on the last day loose. Before any of that, God has decreed that HIS servants be SEALED with HIS SEAL in their foreheads.


When you get to Revelation 9, you should then understand more about this specific 'sealing' of those with God's Seal...

Rev 9:3-4
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV

Those locusts are allowed to sting ONLY those NOT SEALED with God's SEAL.

That means the 144,000 that are SEALED with GOD's Seal in their foreheads CANNOT be stung by those locusts.

What is that locust sting? Well, since they cannot hurt any green thing, nor kill, and later Rev.9 shows their power is in their MOUTHS, that means the 'sting' is pointing to WORDS OF DECEPTION out of their mouths. And the ONLY ones that will not be subject to that stinging are Christ's faithful elect, His faithful CHURCH.


Thus the 144,000 represent SEALED Israelites of 12,000 from each of those 12 tribes mentioned there in Revelation 7. They are SEALED with GOD's Seal in prep for the great tribulation. They are part of Christ's Church, prior to the "great tribulation", and through the "great tribulation", and all the way up to Christ's coming to gather His faithful Church on the last day of this world.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
KJV


Then at Revelation 7:9, John is shown a "great multitude" that came out of "great tribulation". That DOES NOT MEAN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE. John is shown those having gone through... the great tribulation also, like those 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. And that is why the "great multitude" is shown to John after the fact, their standing before the throne of God and Jesus AFTER He has returned, a reference to the Eternity. That means, that "great multitude" is SEALED with GOD'S SEAL also, in prep to go through the "great tribulation" and be overcomers in Christ Jesus.


Another Biblical FACT:
ONLY the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent the JEWS of the "house of Judah". The remaining Israelite tribes (10 of them), represent the "house of Israel". All 12 tribes of Israel were scattered by God because of their rebellion against Him. But it was to the "house of Israel" (10 tribes) that Jesus said He was specifically sent to, and they would believe The Gospel. Only a remnant of JEWS believed on Lord Jesus Christ. The largest majority of today's JEWS are still blinded away from The Gospel (Romans 11).

Therefore, those 144,000 are NOT all Jewish Israelites. The majority of them represent lost ten tribes which were scattered among the Gentiles first per 2 Kings 17. And descendants of those ten lost tribe Israelites make up a HUGE portion of Christ's Church today! Thus no man can rightly try to separate those 144,000 Israelites from Christ's Church. ONLY those Sealed with God's Seal in their foreheads represent Christ's Church in Revelation.

Very Good O.P., thank you. About the seal itself, In the book of Revelation, the “seal on the forehead” of the 144,000 is a sign of belonging to God and of His protection.

In Revelation 7:3–4 (NKJV) it says:
“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.”

Later in Revelation 14:1 (NKJV) John adds:
“Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”

So the seal is the name of God the Father written on their foreheads. This does not mean a visible mark like ink, but rather a spiritual sign showing that they truly belong to God, think according to His will, and are under His care.

Jesus also said in John 10:27–28 (NKJV):
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

The seal works in the same way—it shows who are His, and no one can take them away from Him.


The seal on the forehead of the 144,000 is God’s name, showing that they belong fully to Him, are protected by Him, and are marked as His true servants who follow the Lamb.

Blessings.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The repentant thief on the cross was a repentant, "carnal believer". What happened to him?? Yeah, I see no distinction in what you say about robes.

"Robes" are symbolic of Christ's righteousness, aka the Holy Spirit, of which EVERY person (both OC and NC) needs to have, in order for them to enter into the KoG. Surely you must know this? See John 3:3-8. The parable of the wedding garment fully explains this. Mat. 22:10-14.

However, those who were of faith, while living under the OC of Israel, NEVER could be permanently given the Holy Spirit UNTIL AFTER Jesus was glorified. John 7
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Therefore, in Rev. 6:9-11, we see OC Israel of faith receiving the white robes, WHO ARE the symbolic 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel, who died in faith while under the OC.
God did not forget them of whom He "remembered". Malachi 3:16-18.
Which is exactly the same word the repentant thief used: "Remember me.....".

And Jesus did exactly that, on the very day of His own death. Mat. 27:51-54.
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the [OC] saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
[54] Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, SAW the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Robes do not Signify the Holy Spirit.
They signify what the high priest and Jesus wore indicating a pure vessel for service.

If your assumption is true, then your doctrine indicates Some are saved and martyred apart from the Holy Spirit.
Read the account in Rev, of the martyrs that are confined under the altar, with no robes on and are handed robes later.
So, under your doctrine, they had no Holy Spirit at martyrdom and entrance to heaven, God's throne.
(Not even remotely possible)

Interesting that you left off the part of their robes needing washing.
Huh???? The Holy Spirit needs washing ????

What is actually going on is that they Are left behind on Earth after the rapture, and they face the Antichrist ,and billions of carnal believers get their heads chopped off.
Now we see them as the innumerable number in heaven for the 7 yr trib. Needing their carnal robes passed in the blood.
And that is the dynamic of "robes needing washing".

Are you aware that sin is CONTINUALLY CLEANSED AND WASHED AWAY BY THE BLOOD OF Jesus?????
Robes washed in the blood can not possibly be the Holy Spirit.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Very Good O.P., thank you. About the seal itself, In the book of Revelation, the “seal on the forehead” of the 144,000 is a sign of belonging to God and of His protection.

In Revelation 7:3–4 (NKJV) it says:
“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.”

Later in Revelation 14:1 (NKJV) John adds:
“Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”

So the seal is the name of God the Father written on their foreheads. This does not mean a visible mark like ink, but rather a spiritual sign showing that they truly belong to God, think according to His will, and are under His care.

Jesus also said in John 10:27–28 (NKJV):
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

The seal works in the same way—it shows who are His, and no one can take them away from Him.


The seal on the forehead of the 144,000 is God’s name, showing that they belong fully to Him, are protected by Him, and are marked as His true servants who follow the Lamb.

Blessings.

Nope.
The 144k are in heaven right before the wrath.
They are firstfruits.
They are ethnic Jews, described 2 different ways as ETHNIC JEWS.

Romans 11 fulfilled.